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RTLinux Patents: Issue Closed?
Anonymous Coward writes "LinuxDevices.com reports that the Free Software Foundation has reached an agreement with Victor Yodaiken which resolves what FSF considered to be a violation of GPL by the Open RTLinux Patent License. Details are not yet available, but it sounds like the clause in the license which required users of RTLinux to keep records and provide them to FSMLabs on demand was the principal source of the violation, and that the requirement is being dropped from an updated version of the RTLinux license that will be published in the next day or two. All in all, it seems like the FSF has successfuly enforced the GPL even though it was neither an owner nor co-owner of the software (i.e. the linux kernel) whose license terms were being violated. It's interesting to see this practical example of FSF in action, and bodes well for the future of GPL -- at least in a small way."
crimoid points to ZDNet coverage of the FSF's criticism of RTLinux's licensing terms, written before such a resolution was clear. Sourceforge on Thursday quoted RTLinux CEO Victor Yodaiken, CEO as saying that his company is happy to change "minor problems" with the RTLinux license, and that discussions are still going on with the FSF about those changes.
Couldn't anyone be considered a "co-owner"?
It's interesting to see this practical example of FSF in action, and bodes well for the future of GPL -- at least in a small way."
How do you figure? The supposed breach involved someone who is a part of the community. Presumably he shares at least some of the same views as those espoused within the GPL. That means it was a fairly good bet that he would deal with this (in an amicable manner) once it became apparent that he had violated the GPL terms.
Surely a much better test would involve people/companies who don't share the linux view of the world but who wish to leverage the codebase for their own gain..
It's interesting that the GPL and Stallman's way of dealing with violations does not establish legal precedents, since it's all solved out of the courts.
I wonder how much tech lawyers must hate this kind of behavior. It means less money in their pockets if everyone starts using the GPL. We may after all be headed to a better world.
"Owner" as in owner of the copyright. Contrary to popular opinion, Linux and other GPL software is actually copyrighted. The GPL is essentially a EULA, and has no legal force unless the program it is included with is copyrighted. Since the FSF did not write the Linux kernel, they have no copyright on it and therefore no legal rights to it, so their power is limited in this matter. Presumaby Linus Torvalds holds the Linux copyright, but I really don't know. Probably it's co-owned by several people, but it does *not* include everyone who's ever submitted a patch.
Omnes arx vestrum sunt adiuncta nobis.
FSF succeeded to turn on legions of mindless GNUtroids to jihad against RTLinux with the use of 'patent'-curseword in a case that was just a disagreement over details in the patent license. Do note, that the RTLinux policy of licensing the patent freely only to GPL software and collecting cash from proprietary code makers continues unaffected and FSF has no problems with it.
.. it really has nothing to do with the future of the GPL. It would be different if RTLinux decided that they did not want to work with the GPL while using GPL'ed software.
This is a company who made an honest mistake and did what they could to fix it. Really, a non-issue. They probably has no clue that they were violating the GPL.
6. You will keep complete and accurate records of all commercial uses of the Patented Process and all commercial distributions of the Patented Process whether that distribution occurs directly or as part of your products or services. You will also provide copies of all such records upon request from Licensor.
Yeah, but "Can I ride her?"
Get Used to it.
You are about to be policed by a moderator.
is "Does he run Linux?"
Karma got maxed out. Had to lower it...
Why this is called RTLinux. It's a real-time OS that is very lightweight that can run Linux or NetBSD as a pre-emptible process.
Isn't this an infringement of the Linux trademark?
Won't Linus lose the rights to the trademark if he doesn't follow this one up?
-- Under/Overrated is meta-moderation, and therefore is Redundant.
Unless they have signed over their copyrights (to Linus), any submitter of a patch of significant size (a patch having a work status) is a co-owner. But, IANAL. I don't know if any employee of FSF have submitted any patches of significant size, but it's not impossible.
--The knowledge that you are an idiot, is what distinguishes you from one.
...is coming. ARE YOU READY???
buy, now...
Considering that the patent is easily breakable in court, the FSF settled with Victor very easily. Why ? because RTlinux is irrelevant : RTAI is the way to go now. It provides all that RTlinux provides and much more, and it isn't encumbered by silly patents.
All in all, a much better move than it first appears by the FSF : they win on the PR front by making Victor change his license and they save money by not contesting a patent that isn't important anymore. Way to go guys !
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
This is not really about enforcing the GPL, it didn't get close to that point. All we had was a short public dialogue. Enforcement is something that happens in court. I wouldn't even count an out-of-court settlement as enforcement, that's just avoiding the issue because the defandant thinks that a successful enforcement would be likely or doesn't think it's worthwhile to mess around in court. This was way far from anything like that.
Thanks
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
but this helps set a precedent. Too bad it's not in the legal sense. What we really need is a test case, to find some business that violated the GPL and take them to court over a big, intentional GPL violation where they'll attack the integrity of the GPL. If it survives the court case, we're in good shape and makes it likely that companies will think twice before they violate the GPL.
For some strange reason I have an urge to dig through code from a certain company.
F-bacher
James Tiberius Kirk: "Spock, the women on your planet are logical. No other planet in the galaxy can make that claim."
says "page not found"
pi=sigma{n:0-infinity}[(1/16)^n][(4/(8n+1))-(2/(8n +4))-(1/ (8n+5))-(1/(8n+6))]
:) perhaps one day you will be back with Katy.
The asertion was made that this outcome bodes well for the future of the GPL. I'm not sure if I see that. No legal prescident was set here; only more evidence of the FSF's ability to bully people into bending to their will. Don't get me wrong, I believe the FSF was right in this case, in insisting on the changes that were mand, but as a matter of law, a third party still has no standing in a license negotiation, and that's probably a good thing - as a matter of law
--CTH
--Got Lists? | Top 95 Star Wars Line
All the same, I'm glad things seem to have worked out for the best, albeit at the unfortunate cost of airing dirty laundry in public.
In what is quite possibly the worst pun ever, is it possible that Victor has received a pre-emptive patent on pre-empting? That is, he has prevented others from nefariously patenting the process, by patenting it himself. It's not as if he is trying to exploit it financially, and the patent process is quite costly.
"A coward is incapable of causing destruction; it is the prerogative of the brave" - Mahatma Ghandi
Well, I tried to post a corrected link, but there must be a problem with Slashcode. Here's my attempt below:
8 12 834,00.html?chkpt=zdnnp1tp02
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2
When I type it in above, there's no space, but when it shows up as a comment, there's a space between 2812 and 834. Just copy and paste, then remove that space.
I'll save you some time: it's anti-OSS FUD saying that Open Source is "Rocked" by this awful transgression. Yeah, right. It was a minor dispute, nothing more.
P.S. I don't think ZDNet is anti-Linux "at it's core", they simply have some writers that are anti-Linux, just as they have some writers that are pro-Linux (like Evan Liebovitch [sp?]).
Get Used to it.
You are about to take it up the ass from a moderator.
All in all, it seems like the FSF has successfuly enforced the GPL even though it was neither an owner nor co-owner of the software...
But in this "enforcement," as in others by the EFF, the change required was minor and the party was cooperative when the problem was pointed out -- the blurb even said that RTLinux was "happy to change" license provisions to comply with the GPL.
We still need a test against a genuinely aggressive GPL violator. One who either denies the violation, or tells the EFF to go fsck themselves. The "enforcement" so far seem like a football team scrimmaging against itself: conceptually useful, but not necessarily predictive of real victory.
This is a chart of how bloated the Linux kernel is. (each b represents 1 megabyte of the .tar.gz file)
1.0: b
1.2: bb
2.0: bbbbb
2.2: bbbbbbbbbb
2.4: bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
Remember to email the FSF at licensing@gnu.org if you see a GPL, LGPL, or GFDL violation.
Document the situation as fully as time allows, and the FSF will do everything it can to get the problem fixed.
I suppose you mean to say that the FSF is not the copyright holder of (part of) the software?
Copyright does not make you an owner, it makes you the beneficiary of a temporary exclusive right to copy the work. You can't own software.
You may think I'm nit-picking, but I think that that's a very important distinction to make. The general public's (and politician's) failure to see this point is a (the?) basic problem in the thinking behind all those bad IP laws.
AFAIK, RTAI is an offshoot of RTLinux. The RTLinux philosophy is that the RT side should be highly simplistic and have a tiny set of primitives. RTAI seeks to evolve the RT services to encompass everything you'd ever expect from a RT operating system.
In the RTLinux approach you want to place the minimum amount of stuff on the RT side for reliability reasons. The RTAI people feel that approach handicaps the RT application programmer.
However, Yodaiken's license applies to RTAI all the same.
Marko
HOW DARE YOU USE THAT WORD!?!?! Call him a sand nigger :)
This looks like the first real win for the FSF. Hopefully there are many many more, Now if we could get geeks and techno-prople to donate 1/25th of what they donated to the WTC disaster they'd get some real teeth to go after larger targets.
BTW, before you click on the (TROLL) button because I didnt mention the WTC while crying and wailing.. It's an example that the geeks donated and helped overwhelmingly to the aid of those poor people and the red-cross. and the fact that many are willing to donate time to go and help that is way above and beyond the call.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Hmm, looks like I'm going to have to retune my "GPL is Dying..." troll.
Note that the last mod time, as I write this, is Jan 22, 2001 - so it hasn't been changed yet. It looks like section 2.6 is going to be removed.
One has to wonder why rtlinux screwed up here. This seems like a ton of bad publicity for such a minor change. To say nothing about the negative publicity over a patent (and a patent that wouldn't hold up in court, no less).
But the big question about this "Stallman" is "Does he run Linux?"
Of course. Linux makes up a part of the primary operating system used at the FSF; it's the kernel of the GNU/Linux system: GNU's Not UNIX®, and Linux® Is Not UNIX®. I still wonder why FSF didn't register the "GNU" mark.
Get a GNU/Linux system today!Will I retire or break 10K?
Copyright does not make you an owner, it makes you the beneficiary of a temporary exclusive right to copy the work. You can't own software.
Right. In that vein, many people have dropped the term "IP" entirely and taken up calling such rights "government-granted monopolies," or GGMs. ( Read More... | )
Will I retire or break 10K?
turn to twoll!
Oddly enough, the talk of press releases and social-karma (or corporate equivalent of avoiding brand tainting) seems to work in imposing social norms on recalcite companies. This is not to claim that the GPL is good or bad, but to point out that they are doing the modern equivalent of the church punishing obnoxious behaviour in the middle ages by parading perpetuators around in public with ugly masks and placards. The effectiveness might be questionable but there's no doubt that people's desire to conform (peer pressure) is a powerful psychological force (sometimes excessively so in teenagers) and it does have the advantage of being cheaper than lawsuits.
... we don't murder people because we understand the consequences of arbitrary violence. The GPL, whether mindless ideology or social conviction, is no less powerful in that at least people in the hacker community recognise the benefits and are willing to follow the principles.
The problem is so far the main groups that can take advantage of open source are the relatively prosperous western countries. Enforcement of the GPL license is going to be harder in places which don't respect intellectual endeavours (Eastern pirates), much less international laws (Taliban, etc). Ultimately laws are self-imposed constraints
The interesting fact about a global software economy is that reputation becomes so much more important. When details are kept track of contributors in freshmeat, sourceforge, etc. Old fashioned social ties are reused to subtlely enforce trust. Would you start up a company or work with someone you know that doesn't recognise the legimacy of software licenses? Public naming and threats to lose "face" in front of peers may ultimately unveil all sins (programming or otherwise).
LL
would someone kindly ram their cock up the ass of this little boy ? he needs the fucking of his life, preferably on the tip of a 14 inch penis. if youll notice he's quite a soft little twink and would probably squeal like a little piggie at first but would be easily subdued by a good whipping about his pudgy white ass and soft effeminite feet. i suggest kidnapping him and tying him hand and foot then giving him the fucking and torturing he deserves. mmmm...
i've heard he has a raging foot fetish and will kneel and lick the feet of any fat little gay boy and gladly let you tie him up and fuck the shit out of him once you torture him enough.
Actually, that's not precisely correct, either. The GPL is definitely not a EULA. Whereas most software "licenses" purport to place conditions on how you may use the software, the GPL places conditions on how you may copy and redistribute the software. This is a subtle but important difference.
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
I don't agree with the GPL. While it certainly does standardize open-source licensing, for any free software organization to become legalistic about another free software organizaion not following their terms to the letter is like biting the hand that feeds.
The FSF doesn't own any of the things covered by the GPL. They do, however, feel compelled to dictate terms of useage to the people who are making their software publically available. This shows, to me, little more then slightly masked greed.
I've released a few software programs that were very, very specialized, under a license I wrote myself...a 1-liner. "You can do whatever you want to this program, provided that you give me credit for making it in the first place and you don't blame me for anything wrong in it, known or not." No complaints...
The FSF seems to have gotten too big of an ego for its own good. Someone needs to cut them back down to size, in my opinion.
J.W. Koebel
Doesn't that RMS fanatic have anything better to do?
Couldn't agree more. Socialists running around and dictating how software shall be used and produced.
Yodaiken's company is a big contributor to Linux and OSS. I believe that, as such, they are due at least a modicum of respect and consideration. If polite attempts at correcting them are ineffective, you can always turn to the more heavy-handed approach later. People need to remember that if we want to be a community, we have to act like one. There will, as a matter of course, always be disagreements. Most of them can truly be solved without too much sword rattling by merely going to lunch together or something.
No, I believe this whole thing was just rotten. It's enough of an issue to make me very cautious about using GPL on any software I may contribute. I would hate to see what would happen if I accidentally did something contrary to the goals of the FSF.
GreyPoopon
--
Why is it I can write insightful comments but can't come up with a clever signature?
I haven't heard that they've enforced the GPL on Kerberos against Microsoft. What happened there? Isn't that a little more important?
lay off the pipe dude. the gpl certainly is an eula. and there eula that says "you can't use this software to write anti communism treatises" doesn't exist.
I'm curious why the FSF got involved in this at all. They have nothing to do with the Linux kernel. That's someone elses IP. I think this is another example of the FSF sticking it's nose in to other peoples business and making it theirs. I just don't like that.
If the owners of the IP had issues with what was going on they could have handled this.
Darthtuttle
Thought Architect
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
Lawyers defend copyrights everyday, even though they don't own them.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I should be used to it.
The socialists/communists running slashdot censoring my every word is not a suprise to me.
'nuff said
You know, if you ever bothered to post something that wasn't moronic, illiterate, lying, unsupported flamebait, you might have better luck.
here is my original post:I don't know what's going to be worse, the US government or the GNU police......
2 35&mode=flat). But when the GNU is violated, you NEVER hear the END of it:
2 19 .shtml)
2 26 .shtml)
What part of this DON'T you understand. The gnu license is as free as the copyright. IF it were a truly "free" license, it would be in the public domain, with NO restrictions. Instead of going to a copyright holder to see if it is in violation, we are going to Richard Stallman and the FSF. You can also still get sued in court for violating the license.
I realize that noone is forcing this license upon anyone, but judging from the dribble that I have read at the FSF/stallman's website, he believes it should be. (as well as the hundreds of posts relating to napster in the OSS community with something to the effect of: "information needs to be free" including music,programs,etc,etc,anything that can be turned into 1's and 0's. Sharing someone's music,program,etc. without their permission is FORCING your beliefs on to them).
and how about some of the latest news? There's no problems in the slashdot community when a prop. protocol is broken and forced into the open source community (hence violating copyright) (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/09/19/0013
Examples:
1) RTLinux
2)NVIDIA GPL VIOLATION
(http://www.slashdot.org/features/00/05/01/0047
3)Corel Linux GPL violation
(http://www.slashdot.org/articles/99/09/20/1051
im just trying to set the facts STRAIGHT
IF it were a truly "free" license, it would be in the public domain, with NO restrictions.
IF the US were a truly "free" country, I would be able to murder and enslave people, with NO restrictions. Just because it isn't public domain doesn't make it unfree. What exactly gives you the right to claim that thousands of people are offensively wrong in claiming the GPL is free? Why is YOUR definition of "free" the only right one? They believe all software should be free, and they are active in CONVINCING other people to free their software. THIS IS NOT WRONG. Until they try to force someone, you have nothing to bitch about.
Instead of going to a copyright holder to see if it is in violation, we are going to Richard Stallman and the FSF.
but judging from the dribble that I have read at the FSF/stallman's website, he believes it should be.
No one went to the FSF, and the FSF explicitly said they weren't going to take any action as they didn't have the legal right. How about you actually let the FSF start acting authoritarian before you accuse them of it, for Bob's sake.
Can you come up with ONE FUCKING INSTANCE where the FSF has tried to force someone to free code they didn't want to, except in the case of people distributing derivatives based on GPL'd code, in which case the other party HAD ALREADY AGREED to do so? Once case where they've acted like the fascists you want so hard to believe them to be? Just one? Until you have, just shaddup and stop spouting FUD.
as well as the hundreds of posts relating to napster in the OSS community with something to the effect of: "information needs to be free" including music,programs,etc,etc,anything that can be turned into 1's and 0's.
And what about the hundreds of posts saying the exact opposite? Or the thousands of posts somewhere in between? Contrary to your small-minded prejudices, THERE IS NO FUCKING SLASHDOT CONSENSUS! The Slashdot community is made up of a whole lot of different people with a whole lot of different beliefs. Your constant attempts to fit the beliefs of every single person who posts to Slashdot into your fantasy of a bunch of hypocritcal socialistic anarchists is offensive in its sheer stupidity, just like any other type of bigotry.
In addition, you refuse to comprehend the concept that opposition to the media companies' constantly extending copyright law to infringe on our fair use rights, or to the absurdity of "contributory infringement," does not constitute opposition to copyright in general. In addition, you seem unable to understand that it isn't necessarily the same people posting in music discussions versus license discussions.
There's no problems in the slashdot community when a prop. protocol is broken and forced into the open source community
Ummm... How exactly is that a copyright violation? You can't copyright a protocol. Unless you have evidence that actual Fasttrack copyrighted code was included in giFT's code, I'd suggest you refrain from libelous remarks. Reverse engineering for interoperability isn't a copyright violation even under the DMCA. And it sure as hell isn't wrong.
But when the GNU is violated, you NEVER hear the END of it:
Didn't pay attention to the NVidia case. In the Corel case, they failed to understand the GPL. A bunch of people flamed them, a bunch more took the time to write them and explain that what they were doing was a copyright violation. They fixed the problem, and except for a few idiots, that WAS the end of it. Same thing is happening here. They fucked up, they fixed it. End of story.
im just trying to set the facts STRAIGHT
Then why do you keep posting blatant untruths?