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FiveFingerDiscount.com?
phillippaxton writes: "According to this link, dot-bomb victims are creating their own severance packages, no doubt walking away with the typical office tchotchkes (staplers, tape dispensers, etc.) but also big ticket items such as plush furniture, copiers, high-powered network servers, etc. One anecdote cites someone who lifted $445,549 of equipment, then tried to sell it on eBay as a company liquidating their assets." On the other hand, the fact that it's illegal to stiff your employees out of wages due them, even in a bankruptcy, isn't mentioned in the article...
the fact that it's illegal to stiff your employees out of wages due them, even in a bankruptcy, isn't mentioned in the article...
I have been a victim of this, and am owed approximately $7500 by my former employer, who one day decided not to pay anyone (not lay us off, just not pay us; then offered no explanation for two weeks). Does anybody know what recourse there is for people like me to get the money owed them? And what to do if the corporation for which you worked is dissolved? Can you go after the assets of the CEO and/or other executives? How? Through the Department of Labor (this is New York state) or through a private attorney? What has worked for people in the past?
rooooar
If (ex-)employees have a legitimate grievance with their employers, they can bring them to court. If they win, they get paid, and if they don't, they can chalk it up to misfortune and move on. It's ludicrous to suggest that getting stiffed out of wages goes anywhere toward justifying theft.
If they company is too broke to pay the employee wages, then they should be liquidating the equipment themselves, and using it to pay the employees. Or at least find a place for the money to come from. The workers have to eat. I've got no problem with someone taking matters into their own hands if the employer isnt paying them.
Reminds me of a story:
There was this coffeeshop where the owner was really bad at paying the employees on time. So the employees started taking their wages out of the register, and leave a note about how much they took.
Pretty soon they were always paid on time.
The moral of the story: if you want loyal employees, dont treat them like shit. And if you treat them like shit, dont be surprised when little acts of sabotage start happening.
-J5K
The libertarian solution to the failures of capitalism is to apply more capitalism til the failures are fixed.
... Wanna Herman Miller Aeron Chair?
Cheap! only $400 and barely used... only the sweat of 3 dot com geeks on it...
I am posting this anonymously for obvious reasons.
The company I work for at the moment is going through chapter 11 bankruptcy protection, before I started they had a history of missing paychecks which many feel will never be payed.
They have not missed any of my paychecks, however they have provided a few hundred dollars worth of equipment so I can work from home instead of relocating to them.
And if I do end up being owed money I may very well choose to take, AS PAYMENT, that equipment, at whatever the market prices are for those parts new at the time (which seems more then fair).
Some may consider that theft, but I honestly can't see how, IF you are honest about it and actually tell the company that you are taking said assets instead of cash if they don't want to pay you.
I do have to wonder how many companys turn around and report such as theft though.
A programmer, who hopes for the best but keeps reality in mind.
>On the other hand, the fact that it's illegal to stiff
>your employees out of wages due them, even in a bankruptcy, isn't
>mentioned in the article...
Uhh, no. That's not the law. There is certainly a breach of contract when an employee does not get paid, but in the absence of prior intent not to pay, it's generally not a crime.
IN bankruptcy, it's a special set of rules. Employee wages up to a fixed amount (I forget the current number) are a priority claim; they get paid before the regular debts (but only to that amount). One of two things happen: 1) they all get paid, or 2) the "self help" took away assets that would have been used to pay all employees.
Walking off with the expensive stuff could solve the former employee's food and housing nees for a couple of years, though . . .
hawk, esq.
Well, if this "Akron-based company" treated their employees anything like my last employer did, it's no surprise. We were told three months ahead of time that we were being laid off, and then security guards were stationed inside the building to watch us all the time.
Nothing quite like making your employees feel like criminals when it comes to making them want to steal things.
--saint
(I know, this is probably chock full o' poor grammar. I just got to work and I'm working on my first cup of coffee. Deal with it.)
You're right Michael - it's okay to steal and loot because some employers can't afford to make their payroll.
Uhh, CmdrTaco? Better keep an eye on Michael when Andover starts running out of cash...
heaven forbid that these geeks, after putting in 80 hour weeks, would feel they're entitled to anything other than an asskick out the door
A zealous opinion indeed. In fact, when I first read the article, I wholeheartedly agreed with you. Once I got over the emotional charge and saw the situation from a rational perspective it became very simple: These employees don't own this equipment, period. This is the only conceivable arguement. You have to remember that these geeks are getting paid for their 80 hour weeks. They are not entitled to the equipment that their employers paid for.
"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch." - Jack Nicholson
Whenever an employer fucks up a pension plan, or terminates someone without good reason it's always "a shame". But whenever an employee walks away with a printer you can buy for 100 bucks on eBay after their severance package has been cancelled and their pay check bounced, it's "a criminal act".
One computer: $2,000
One oscilloscope: $43,549
Having your story linked to Slashdot: $PRICELESS
For some bankrupcies, there are severance checks. And for others, fivefingerdiscount.
Fivefingerdiscount. It's everything you want to have.
This article is misleading and sensationalistic.
The most common items stolen from tech companies by employees are laptops and handheld computers that cost less than $1,500 per item, asset managers say. But they are also seeing an increase in big-ticket theft.
The writer gives ZERO facts in support of this.
One anecdote cites someone who lifted $445,549 of equipment
The anecdote refers to a MOTOROLA (hardly a dot-bomb) employee. The employee used his "security clearance" to steal a lot of stuff; I'd infer that there were multiple thefts over time while still employed. Either that or Motorola is too stupid to disable employees' access cards when they fire them, or maybe their security guards let people cart out half a million dollars' worth of equipment whenever they feel like it.
The second largest number mentioned is $100,000...
somebody had cut a hole through the wall and stolen $100,000 worth of computers.
This is a flat-out case of robbery robbery. The writer carefully worded it to make it look to a casual reader like an ex-employee had stolen it but gives ZERO evidence for this proposition.
The only news here isn't news...laptops and PDAs walk off. If you call someone and say "Don't bother coming back," they'll take you at your word, even if they've got a company laptop at home.
And all this time, I thought it was OK to blame someone else for getting laid off. Now I come to find it was actually my fault all along.
Guess I ought to give them back their laptop.
You've been hired for your intelligence, use it. There are several ways to tell when its time to leave your company.
1) You work for a DSL Provider thats NOT a bell Leave now.
2) You see your company on FuckedCompany.com.
3) Your stock is delisted, OR your IPO Is "Indefinately put on hold".
4) Your company starts to buy metal folding chairs instead of Areons, saving ~$575.00/ea
5) You have to start *gasp* PAYING for your cokes.
6) You work for a dot-com with an unreasonable business model - I.E. Sending a $4 20 Lb bag of furball litter, overnight priority mail.
7) Your CEO's last job was "PC Technician"
8) Your company holds "Effective Resume Writing" classes or begins offering discounted copies of "Knock 'em Dead".
9) You see a copy of "7 Habits of highly unemployed people" laying on your bosses desk.
Theres more. But if you see any of the above, its a pretty good sign you need to move on.
ah, but they DIDN'T get paid.
I went through this at a dot-bomb. We got paid monthly and the last month, we didn't. Our VC (Andy Evans, the dirtiest son of a bitch alive) did some corporate paper tricks to make it so that the company didn't have any assets, so there was no recourse for us. He effectively got out of
paying 30 people with a totally clean nose.
So, we took the equipment, to make up for our lost wages. I feel that I'm more than justified, because
a) this company OWNED the equipment I took [which was much less than other people took - I didn't even take my laptop] and
b) you don't not pay me. Period.
There are few judges that are going to throw the book at you for just keeping the gear unless you attempt to do something fraudulent with it later. And furthermore, it's just the right thing to do, all you Kohlberg-4 "I'm scared of the law" 'people' notwithstanding.
What I want to know is why people worked for free so long in the first place? I know when my paycheck comes, and if I don't get paid, I don't work. It's as simple as that. I work because I get paid. Why did these people continue to work? That seems like a pretty damn stupid idea. I'd rather sit at home in my PJ's, watching TV and sending out my resume then go into work for free. (And in fact, I was forced to do this once).
It's worth exactly ZERO, as you should know. You can't charge for IP addresses. You can charge an admin fee for the application/assignment process, you can charge for routing them, you can charge for providing transit to them, but you can't charge for the IP addresses themselves. Furthermore, they're not transferable, you'd have to return them to RIPE/ARIN and get them re-allocated.
Nick Waterman, Sr Tech Director, #include <stddisclaimer>
Hear hear. As long as you're sure that your employer actually owns the equipment, and that you're not going to get paid what you're owed or have been promised (written or verbal, and your immediate boss does in fact represent the company, so her bullshit promises are binding*), then I have no problem with swiping hardware.
The way that I'd prefer to do it is to agree to take hardware at a reasonable price, below retail but way above fire sale, in lieu of wages, bonuses or benefits. But I have no illusions that the survivors in my company will have the basic shred of common sense to agree to that, as they refuse to do it right now for obsoleted hardware. It's (confidentially expressed) company policy to retire hardware through theft, as it's easier than selling it on to employees!
This isn't an abstract issue for me. It looks like my reward for finishing my current project will be to have my office closed as being surplus to requirements. We're already training our (younger, cheaper, more gullible) replacements. Meanwhile, management exhorts us to work harder to deal with the problems of moving more and move responsibility and control to the parent office. People are putting in 80 hour weeks, and many of them are in denial that we're going to get cut. The decision will be made by accountants in a board room 3000 miles away, and it won't involve anyone we can impress with our hard work and dedication. This isn't a dot-com, it's an established tech company that's screwed up big time and has grasped further than it can reach.
My response? Work the 40 hours a week that I'm paid for, goof and surf for 20, and keep track of where the good toys are, for when the "We regret to inform you" announcement comes. While everyone else is wailing and gnashing in betrayed anguish, I'll be slipping a Sony Viao and hard drive into the bag I keep ready under my desk, then I'll scoop up a flat panel monitor and an 802.11b access point while I wait for the 200 copies of my resume to finish printing**.
I have no illusions that this is theft. But, you know what? I really don't give a fuck. I trusted my employer, and they've already screwed me over with impossible demands, tortuous contracts, and farcically worthless stock options. If they make the final betrayal, I'll loot the office without hesitation then sleep very soundly in my bed, believe me.
* I live in a jurisdiction where verbal contracts are legally binding. You should try it, it's very refreshing.
** If you think this is the actual list, or that I'm going to store my loot anywhere findable, dream on. Find another point of idiocy to deride.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
An axiom that a friend of mine coined, that I've always liked:
Heroic effort is not a sustainable business strategy.
Burn out your best people and you'll crash the company.
ben_ the technologist and platform agnostic
So some companies can also get used to people producing at maxed out levels of production.
I just came out of a Death March culture/company. 2.8 years of ever increasing fantasy expectations (what they wanted us to do) combined with ever decreasing fulfillment of contractual obligations (what they did with respect to their contracts to their employees).
Vacation became regarded early on as "theft from the company" - and was denied. Taking a sick day was regarded with significant suspicion.
Performance incentives (rewards for completing impossible death march projects) were tossed out - and amazingly, the teams would nail them. At the last second, the company's controller would interfer with one of the last steps (like authorizing a leased line to be ordered) and wala... the team would miss the deadline by hours and lose the bonus. Typical 'Lucy taking the football away' behavior.
Then salaries were reduced by 25% "to make the business plan look better to investors" (while senior management still drove leased bullet-proof mercedes, lotuses, ferarris and such) with the 25% to be paid at year end as a balloon payment (don't ever try this, friends!). Except guess what never showed up at year end? Then that was used to string you along to stay at the company - sort of a reverse option: "Quit and you'll never see the $50K+ we owe you!"
Then payroll started slipping. Most of the sane left then. Those who stayed worked for several months without paychecks - buying the promises of great riches. They got booted finally - firing the entire technology office in another part of the country without leaving anyone to control the assets. Their plan? Threaten the just-fired employees to work for free and inventory and package up the goods for shipping, or be accused of stealing anything that goes missing. "If you don't come in next week and ship it to us and something is missing, you know who the investigators will believe kept it."
Many of the former employees held onto items for collateral. Can you blame them? "Pay up the cash you owe and we'll release the equipment back to you." In the various colo centers the company used, the colo venders are using the same approach with respect to getting the past-due bills paid: pay us and we release your equipment.
So what's wrong with this?
*scoove*
In the immortal words of King Missle: