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FiveFingerDiscount.com?
phillippaxton writes: "According to this link, dot-bomb victims are creating their own severance packages, no doubt walking away with the typical office tchotchkes (staplers, tape dispensers, etc.) but also big ticket items such as plush furniture, copiers, high-powered network servers, etc. One anecdote cites someone who lifted $445,549 of equipment, then tried to sell it on eBay as a company liquidating their assets." On the other hand, the fact that it's illegal to stiff your employees out of wages due them, even in a bankruptcy, isn't mentioned in the article...
Possibly a Caddy SUV. 'nough said. :)
"Ex-employees thought they were entitled to it,"
.04% of his bad investment back after the fire sale...
Yeah, heaven forbid that these geeks, after putting in 80 hour weeks, would feel they're entitled to anything other than an asskick out the door- far more important that some grasping VC gets
It sounds like the insurance companies are as bad as the people stealing the stuff to begin with. It's not theft if your employees steal from you?
;)
If anyone knows where I can get an Aeron cheap though, let me know...
When a startup that my company was financing went under, my department laid claim to the computers. So two guys from here went over there and began loading up the truck. During their last run they put the remaining monitors on those nice chairs (what are they called? aeron?) and wheeled the whole thing out to the truck. When they walked back in to say "All set, we're taking off" the beancounter in charge of the operation said "You're gonna bring back those chairs, right?" D'oh.
First off while it's wrong to stiff your employees, stealing equipment is just plain thievery. The people that do this are just untrustworthy thieves and the company should have done a better background check to begin with. I can see someone swiping a pen or a blank CD that they burned at work or even postage on the postage machine. These little things are expected by management in the day to day operation. But walking off with a load balancer or ML530 server, or color laser printer? Unbelieveable.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
the fact that it's illegal to stiff your employees out of wages due them, even in a bankruptcy, isn't mentioned in the article...
I have been a victim of this, and am owed approximately $7500 by my former employer, who one day decided not to pay anyone (not lay us off, just not pay us; then offered no explanation for two weeks). Does anybody know what recourse there is for people like me to get the money owed them? And what to do if the corporation for which you worked is dissolved? Can you go after the assets of the CEO and/or other executives? How? Through the Department of Labor (this is New York state) or through a private attorney? What has worked for people in the past?
rooooar
But some things I did take:
;)
Legit sealed copies of Windows 98, Office 2000, etc, which I could use to somewhat legitimize my computer. (at the time)
A fire extinguisher.
Lots of food.
T-shirts.
Half of a video camera. (The building had the eyepiece of an old Beta video camera stuck into the wall to make it look like a security camera. Obviously it wasn't working)
Lots of notebooks, papers, etc, for school.
And, I think that was it....the company never went out of business though; i just took it because no one was using it
If (ex-)employees have a legitimate grievance with their employers, they can bring them to court. If they win, they get paid, and if they don't, they can chalk it up to misfortune and move on. It's ludicrous to suggest that getting stiffed out of wages goes anywhere toward justifying theft.
If they company is too broke to pay the employee wages, then they should be liquidating the equipment themselves, and using it to pay the employees. Or at least find a place for the money to come from. The workers have to eat. I've got no problem with someone taking matters into their own hands if the employer isnt paying them.
Reminds me of a story:
There was this coffeeshop where the owner was really bad at paying the employees on time. So the employees started taking their wages out of the register, and leave a note about how much they took.
Pretty soon they were always paid on time.
The moral of the story: if you want loyal employees, dont treat them like shit. And if you treat them like shit, dont be surprised when little acts of sabotage start happening.
-J5K
The libertarian solution to the failures of capitalism is to apply more capitalism til the failures are fixed.
They may have difficulty blaming themselves when they get laid off, so they direct their anguish at the company.
Uh, hello? If a company goes bankrupt (usually due to a crappy business model or incompetent management), why should the guy at the bottom (secretary, router tech, janitor) blame themselves?
I'd say the 80/20 rule holds true here - 20% of the employees are responsible for 80% of the business. If the 20% aren't doing their jobs, then the remaining 80% have a right to be upset with them. After all, the company does have a responsibility to operate in the best interests of all employees, not just the 20% that form the upper management.
Now, of course, stealing servers, routers and laptops is just wrong, but perhaps this should serve as a wake-up call to the management - it's time to start treating your employees right!
... Wanna Herman Miller Aeron Chair?
Cheap! only $400 and barely used... only the sweat of 3 dot com geeks on it...
You don't swipe items when the company has given you the boot. They'll have their eyes on you big time. What you do is you swipe items when you're pissed off at your company for treating you badly. (IE: Hurray! Everyone gets a 10% pay cut!)
;)
Best way to do this? Very simple. Use your company's shipping and receiving department. That's what they're there for. From you desk, sell office items on eBay. When it comes time to deliver the goods, box it up... at work... and give it to your shipping department (who, no doubt, will want to FedEx, UPS, or otherwise mail it with no later than two day delivery). Make the company foot the bill for getting rid of their own items.
This message is in jest. Please DON'T try this, gentle SysAdmins.
Slashdot should include "IANAL" in the article. While there are several state and federal laws to "protect" workers from these types of situations there isn't much in the area of enforcement. In a perfect world the employer is required to tell the staff that they are going to file papers when they decided to draft them. Not after the file. In practice the employees usually find out when they go do work and find a notice pasted to a locked door.
IANAL
I am posting this anonymously for obvious reasons.
The company I work for at the moment is going through chapter 11 bankruptcy protection, before I started they had a history of missing paychecks which many feel will never be payed.
They have not missed any of my paychecks, however they have provided a few hundred dollars worth of equipment so I can work from home instead of relocating to them.
And if I do end up being owed money I may very well choose to take, AS PAYMENT, that equipment, at whatever the market prices are for those parts new at the time (which seems more then fair).
Some may consider that theft, but I honestly can't see how, IF you are honest about it and actually tell the company that you are taking said assets instead of cash if they don't want to pay you.
I do have to wonder how many companys turn around and report such as theft though.
A programmer, who hopes for the best but keeps reality in mind.
>On the other hand, the fact that it's illegal to stiff
>your employees out of wages due them, even in a bankruptcy, isn't
>mentioned in the article...
Uhh, no. That's not the law. There is certainly a breach of contract when an employee does not get paid, but in the absence of prior intent not to pay, it's generally not a crime.
IN bankruptcy, it's a special set of rules. Employee wages up to a fixed amount (I forget the current number) are a priority claim; they get paid before the regular debts (but only to that amount). One of two things happen: 1) they all get paid, or 2) the "self help" took away assets that would have been used to pay all employees.
Walking off with the expensive stuff could solve the former employee's food and housing nees for a couple of years, though . . .
hawk, esq.
Yah, I can see the itemization now.
Sig (appended to the end of comments you post, 120 chars)
You're right Michael - it's okay to steal and loot because some employers can't afford to make their payroll.
WTF are you thinking?
Well, if this "Akron-based company" treated their employees anything like my last employer did, it's no surprise. We were told three months ahead of time that we were being laid off, and then security guards were stationed inside the building to watch us all the time.
Nothing quite like making your employees feel like criminals when it comes to making them want to steal things.
--saint
(I know, this is probably chock full o' poor grammar. I just got to work and I'm working on my first cup of coffee. Deal with it.)
Same thing happened a t a company I worked for about a year ago. The owner gave me a couple off nice office chairs, a computer desk, some monitors and a bunch of other stuff. They know people are giving it away as a kind of extra severance pay.
That's probably the main reason insurance companies won't pay for stuff.
Whenever an employer fucks up a pension plan, or terminates someone without good reason it's always "a shame". But whenever an employee walks away with a printer you can buy for 100 bucks on eBay after their severance package has been cancelled and their pay check bounced, it's "a criminal act".
One computer: $2,000
One oscilloscope: $43,549
Having your story linked to Slashdot: $PRICELESS
For some bankrupcies, there are severance checks. And for others, fivefingerdiscount.
Fivefingerdiscount. It's everything you want to have.
...I had an escort that walked with me from the final meeting to my desk, then watched as I packed up what was mine, and made sure that I didn't walk with anything expensive. I wouldn't have stolen anything anyway. But I still took advantage of the company's unfortunate situation. They had several foosball tables and were planning on moving to a smaller office after the layoffs. I was able to purchase a foos table off of them for a fraction of the real price, and it was in mint condition. If you are not a criminal and are not willing to steal the equipment, it doesn't hurt to ask if they will sell you what you want for cheap.
This article is misleading and sensationalistic.
The most common items stolen from tech companies by employees are laptops and handheld computers that cost less than $1,500 per item, asset managers say. But they are also seeing an increase in big-ticket theft.
The writer gives ZERO facts in support of this.
One anecdote cites someone who lifted $445,549 of equipment
The anecdote refers to a MOTOROLA (hardly a dot-bomb) employee. The employee used his "security clearance" to steal a lot of stuff; I'd infer that there were multiple thefts over time while still employed. Either that or Motorola is too stupid to disable employees' access cards when they fire them, or maybe their security guards let people cart out half a million dollars' worth of equipment whenever they feel like it.
The second largest number mentioned is $100,000...
somebody had cut a hole through the wall and stolen $100,000 worth of computers.
This is a flat-out case of robbery robbery. The writer carefully worded it to make it look to a casual reader like an ex-employee had stolen it but gives ZERO evidence for this proposition.
The only news here isn't news...laptops and PDAs walk off. If you call someone and say "Don't bother coming back," they'll take you at your word, even if they've got a company laptop at home.
And all this time, I thought it was OK to blame someone else for getting laid off. Now I come to find it was actually my fault all along.
Guess I ought to give them back their laptop.
You've been hired for your intelligence, use it. There are several ways to tell when its time to leave your company.
1) You work for a DSL Provider thats NOT a bell Leave now.
2) You see your company on FuckedCompany.com.
3) Your stock is delisted, OR your IPO Is "Indefinately put on hold".
4) Your company starts to buy metal folding chairs instead of Areons, saving ~$575.00/ea
5) You have to start *gasp* PAYING for your cokes.
6) You work for a dot-com with an unreasonable business model - I.E. Sending a $4 20 Lb bag of furball litter, overnight priority mail.
7) Your CEO's last job was "PC Technician"
8) Your company holds "Effective Resume Writing" classes or begins offering discounted copies of "Knock 'em Dead".
9) You see a copy of "7 Habits of highly unemployed people" laying on your bosses desk.
Theres more. But if you see any of the above, its a pretty good sign you need to move on.
I worked at one of the massive web consulting shops, and watched it go from 10,000 to about 50 employees before I finally got the golden shitcan award in July. A list of things I saw people steal follows:
-Aeron Chairs
-Dell Servers
-Compaq Servers
-Dell desktops
-Cisco hubs and switches
-Sun desktops
-A pool table.
-Microsoft Natural Keyboards
-Speakers
-Electronic foot massagers (Really.)
-Books
-Any software package known to man
-Laptops
-DLT Cartridges
-Any SCSI equipment you could imagine.
I could probably make this list longer, but I doubt anyone wants to read it.
"...Employees across the country are feeling disenfranchised. They may have difficulty blaming themselves when they get laid off, so they direct their anguish at the company."
Huh? Since I've never been in the 'executive chair' how exactly could it ever be my fault that I am being laid off? Its called being FIRED if I screw up. Seriously, this is passing the buck. It sounds like a consultant selling consolation to management and investors -- you f'd up but its someone else's fault.
Having played this game twice now, I think I have some experience -- first time gouged three weeks pay (I worked it, but never got paid). The second time I was given a 20% pay cut and told that I would still be expected to work overtime for free and then was laid off two weeks later anyway (no I never worked the overtime, I'm not that dumb). The second incident was very recently (last two weeks) and caused primarily because I work(ed) in the travel sector. My fault? I don't think so.
While I certainly don't advocate outright theft of large and expensive equipment. I have no trouble whatsoever understanding why people 'take stuff'. The investors and management never have a second thought about protecting their interests -- so why should you?
Somebody I know...barely... was working for a little dot-bomb in the making. They decided not to pay the last two weeks of work on time, and the last four weeks of expenses, while having their techs carpool 90 minutes daily to a customer site to continue working. When the paychecks didn't come in, two techs refused to drive until they got back expenses, having an empty gas tank and near-empty wallet. That message went through the bookkeeper to the pres and never got returned.
Over the next few days, rounds of email were sent requesting back expenses, requesting back pay, then requesting a simple reply. None were forthcoming. One of the techs finally postulated that if the pres couldn't reply, the tech couldn't work. If the tech couldn't be paid, he would accept the tools in his possession in leiu of a paycheck and move on to another job. The pres NEVER even answered. The whole thing just defaulted away.
I wouldn't guess how "legal" it was. Weeks of work without pay, weeks of expenses without reimbursement. A peaceable solution proposed by the employee and never answered by the boss. It was just ugly. No, "sad" is a better word. That money never did come in. Sucked to be those guys.
--
-j
-j
What I want to know is why people worked for free so long in the first place? I know when my paycheck comes, and if I don't get paid, I don't work. It's as simple as that. I work because I get paid. Why did these people continue to work? That seems like a pretty damn stupid idea. I'd rather sit at home in my PJ's, watching TV and sending out my resume then go into work for free. (And in fact, I was forced to do this once).
In all of these situations, people need the help of strangers in order to make it. Fair dealing is the foundation of all organized society. Now more than ever, we need to treat others the way we would like to be treated.
-- Dave Aiello
Both are theft. No, I'm not condoning either- I'm condemning both. The latter of the two acts mentioned should be made at least as illegal as the first.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
But the dot-bombs had lots of showy things like cheap, but fancy-looking logoed sunglasses, etc.
And aeron chairs, while they aren't cheap, are definitely showy...
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
It's worth exactly ZERO, as you should know. You can't charge for IP addresses. You can charge an admin fee for the application/assignment process, you can charge for routing them, you can charge for providing transit to them, but you can't charge for the IP addresses themselves. Furthermore, they're not transferable, you'd have to return them to RIPE/ARIN and get them re-allocated.
Nick Waterman, Sr Tech Director, #include <stddisclaimer>
that I read on /. how people were offended about company policies where employees who are laid off were immediately escorted by security to the door, and someone else threw all of the employee's belongings into a box for them.
You can't have it both ways as a society. If you want to engage in theft in retaliation for being laid off, then expect such draconian termination policies (or worse) to become the norm.
and here are the morons trying to explain why the
employees feel okay about absconding with equipment:
"They may have difficulty blaming themselves
when they get laid off, so they direct their
anguish at the company."
uh, yeah. earth to psychologists: the people
getting escorted to the dot-com's door rarely have
anything to blame THEMSELVES for, and frequently have their
lying, hot-air-blowing dot-com execs to blame for
MOST of their turmoil.
raise your hand of you've heard this one:
"I know it may seem ridiculous today that you're working
80 hours a week for 40 hours' pay, but won't you be
loving life when those options pay off???"
yeeeah buddy...
A year spent in artificial intelligence is enough to make one believe in God.
So some companies can also get used to people producing at maxed out levels of production.
I just came out of a Death March culture/company. 2.8 years of ever increasing fantasy expectations (what they wanted us to do) combined with ever decreasing fulfillment of contractual obligations (what they did with respect to their contracts to their employees).
Vacation became regarded early on as "theft from the company" - and was denied. Taking a sick day was regarded with significant suspicion.
Performance incentives (rewards for completing impossible death march projects) were tossed out - and amazingly, the teams would nail them. At the last second, the company's controller would interfer with one of the last steps (like authorizing a leased line to be ordered) and wala... the team would miss the deadline by hours and lose the bonus. Typical 'Lucy taking the football away' behavior.
Then salaries were reduced by 25% "to make the business plan look better to investors" (while senior management still drove leased bullet-proof mercedes, lotuses, ferarris and such) with the 25% to be paid at year end as a balloon payment (don't ever try this, friends!). Except guess what never showed up at year end? Then that was used to string you along to stay at the company - sort of a reverse option: "Quit and you'll never see the $50K+ we owe you!"
Then payroll started slipping. Most of the sane left then. Those who stayed worked for several months without paychecks - buying the promises of great riches. They got booted finally - firing the entire technology office in another part of the country without leaving anyone to control the assets. Their plan? Threaten the just-fired employees to work for free and inventory and package up the goods for shipping, or be accused of stealing anything that goes missing. "If you don't come in next week and ship it to us and something is missing, you know who the investigators will believe kept it."
Many of the former employees held onto items for collateral. Can you blame them? "Pay up the cash you owe and we'll release the equipment back to you." In the various colo centers the company used, the colo venders are using the same approach with respect to getting the past-due bills paid: pay us and we release your equipment.
So what's wrong with this?
*scoove*
My brother-in-law worked for them 15 years before the anouncement came that they were going out of business. To keep from having an employee mass exodus so that they could sell of all the remaining inventory, the employees were promised the following for staying the last few months:
Pay for unused vacation
A weeks pay for every year of service for severance
This money was to be mailed to their places of residence the Saturday after the Final closing date along with their final paycheck.
Saturday arrives and instead of the checks they get a letter saying that not only were they reneging on the promised severance and vacation pay, but they also were not getting their last paycheck.
My brother-in-law got screwed out of 20 weeks pay.(3 weeks vacation, 15 years service, 2 week paycheck)
Moral: Stick your company for everything you can get when it comes to salary and benefits, because they have as much empathy and caring for you as they do for the Xerox machine. Don't believe anything management promises, unless it is in writing AND signed. When the company looks like it is in trouble, abandon it like rats off a sinking ship, because that is what they would do to you.
Most slashdotters are completely used to stealing music, so office furniture is the logical consequence.
is that oftentimes the company doesn't own those assets, as the article pointed out. Furniture is leased. Computer equipment might also be leased. The company can't very well sell items it doesn't own.
Secondly, for those items that the company does own, they actually belong to the creditors. That's whose money paid for those Aeron chairs and the Compaq servers and the Dell laptops. The employee did not pay for any of those things, and is not entitled to them.
Steal from companies does not hurt your bosses so much as it hurts the companies that trusted in your bosses enough to invest.
I don't know what the law says in the States, but in Canada if you are owed wages, the directors of the company are still liable, even after bankruptcy, and the powers that be (Labour Relations etc.) will conduct forensic audits and go after personal assets of the directors to recover your wages. They even have the power examine and negate transfers of property that are done with the express purpose of hiding financial assets. So if your shyster VC had put his property in his kid's name or set up a shell company, it wouldn't "protect" him and you would still get paid. It takes a while and you have to make some noise, but the only way you won't get paid is if there really are no assets left to seize.
You're using her as bait, Master!
I was a director of a small UK software house at the time (started with two of us, employed about 8 when I left). We went through some hard times, but always paid the staff before anything else (I almost got evicted for non-payment of rent several times).
The guy who was actually in charge was an idiot though and things soon got to creeping up and biting us. One day a factoring company (do you have these in the states?) can take a dislike to you and the first thing you hear about it is a winding up petition and freezing all your bank accounts. To get round this we had to resort to some pretty dodgy (legally) measures - like having another company with a very similar name and using the bank account for that one - to be able to pay anyone (or even trade).
I bailed out in the end because I just couldn't stand the dishonesty - telling clients that "yes of course it's a legit copy of Netware - we just forgot to bring the manuals with us" and telling employees that "it'll all be OK - you'll get paid next week". I learned a lot in 2 years of working 120 hours a week - mostly about computers, but quite a lot about how not to run a company. At least one of the companies we'd registered went down within 3 months of me leaving. The idiot probably just went on trading and starting up new ones.
As a director (or whatever) it's OK to take risks (you have to take risks to succeed) but you shouldn't mess around with other people's lives. Your employees have rent to pay, kids to feed and lives to live.
This sig made only from recycled ASCII
As for people feeling "cheated" about their options and pay - well, guess what, you entered into that employment voluntarily. If after twleve months you feel the deal was not equitable, you are a moron for having ever entered in it, plain and simple.
You are the master of your fate you amoral fuckers. Just because life hands you a lemon, you don't get a blank check to commit theft.
Another issue here is that the employees who are left when a company comes to its bitter end are generally viewed as the "most valuable," having made it through many many rounds of layoffs. So the first batch of layoffs, people considered to be below par, get substantial severence, rewarded for sucking. Subsequent rounds of layoffs have smaller and smaller severence packages. Those who are still around at the bitter end commonly receive nothing for enduring the vast majority of the misery that the company has wrought. How can anyone fault them for taking part in a bit of "self-compensation"?
Oh, by the way, these are the same people who want increased privacy. Go figure.
A few weeks ago here I saw someone use the phrase "by enlarge" where they obviously meant "by and large". Before I went and anally nitpicked this post, I had to go and look it up to make sure I was actually right.
Turns out this phrase has a nautical origin. I didn't know that. I picked this up, just like everyone else, by hearing it in a context meaning "for the most case" and just started saying "by and large" without knowing what it meant. Fortunately, there are abundant resources on the web to satisfy my anal-retentive nit-picking research needs:
Nautical Expressions in the Vernacular
"Captain Harris was already explaining by and large. With a piece of fresh Gibraltar bread and arrows drawn with wine he showed the ship lying as close as possible to the breeze: '. . . and this is sailing by the wind, or as sailors say in their jargon, on a bowline; whereas large is when it blows not indeed quite from behind but say over the quarter, like this.'
The origin is nautical, and had a very precise meaning. It was an order to the man at the helm of a sailing ship, meaning to sail the ship slightly off the wind. A similar command was "full and by" which meant to "sail as close to the wind as it can go."
I run a one-man-show which is incorporated for my protection, and of course, tax purposes.
The articles of incorporation (Canadian law, BTW) clearly state that in the event of a bankruptcy, or similar, all money oweing to directors of the company (me), will be paid in full before other debitors.
So, technically, if I declare bankruptcy, I could state that the company owes me $xxx,xxx.xx and hand over the company assets to myself personally, leaving nothing for the debitors.
IANAL, but I think I've got a good one! =-)
Does anyone use something similar, and has anyone had any personal experience putting similar rules into force? I'd really love to know what sort of a leg I have to stand on. Stuff in writing is only worth the paper it's printed on until you test it!
mindslip
If the company is in Chapter 11 (still operating but being reorganized) employees must still be paid if they are working, but if we're talking about Chapter 7 (liquidation) then the employees are probably SOL.
Employees are usually considered unsecured creditors as far as the US Bankruptcy Code is concerened. They get paid with whatever money is left after secured creditors (banks, suppliers, CEO's Golden Parachute, etc.) are paid. Holding company assets as "hostage" will just get a person thrown in jail for theft.
I've known several people who were never paid their final check after being canned when their company filed Chapter 7. They had no recourse whatsoever as it wasn't enough to sue the company over (which they couldn't do anyway while the company was in bankruptcy court). All they could do is file a claim with the court and pray.
This was in Arizona, which has few labor laws of its own (it is a right-to-work state that follows federal laws only reluctantly due to our anti-Federal-gummint attitude here). Other states may be different so you have to check your own laws.
IANAL either.
Microsoft's VP of Customer Service is Helen Waite. If you are having problems with their products go to Helen Waite.
That's why the US economy is so "strong": they cheat their employees...
They have a policy not to call their employee's employees, but associates. Like that really means they have any say in the company.
Yeah, the supermarket by my apartment has the same policy. Similarly, I don't see too many acne-ridden 16 year old cart jockeys making boardroom decisions.
In a similar vein, my father is essentially a foreman in a rather blue-collar line of work. But they keep changing his job title to shit like "coach" and "team leader" so that everyone will automatically assume that the manager to employee barrier is gone.
Reminds me of when Mao started calling all the farmers "workers."
But I'm rambling.
--saint
Okay, how do you sue a criminal enterprise in court? They're either going to lie, cheat, or bribe their way out of it. Companies that work employees like dogs for their last month, and never pay them, are criminal organizations.
I've been in this field for some 10 odd years, and never in mylife have I worked 80 hours. (Sometimes by choice, at home, but never "on the clock")
You have to lay out the rules in the begining.
I am now a director of technology, and I am Task oriented. If you have a specific task to do, and you're done for the day, go home! Why sit there and use the company's bandwidth? I don't believe in the "asses and elbows" method. At my company, we are ALL professionals, we all know what we have to do. Our Cisco guy only comes in when he has specific tasks to do when his physical presence is required. The rest of the time he's at home working remotely. Why have him sit in his cubicle for 8 hours? It never made sense to me. He's paid for his knowledge and technical expertise and for ALWAYS saving our ass. Some of our programmers prefer to work at the office. They say home has too many distractions. That's fine. I say "Only you know how you work best". I never care how a task is done. You can go home and pay your COUSIN to do the work. As long as I get the final product..I'm happy. Isn't that what it's all about? Results? That's why I have the best team. Everyone's happy. Sick days and personal days are just "symbols". There is no set schedule. 85% of our programmers work at 4 AM. Why make them bend to the 8:30-5:30 way of life when they are not as productive? As long as MY superiors see the results they want, they couldn't care less. EVERY company should work this way. You'll have happy, more productive professionals. Not burned out card punchers.
If you're not a Liberal in your 20's, then you have no heart.If you're still a Liberal in your 30's you have no brain.
But I believe that employee wages are at the top of the list in Canada. The very first debt that must be paid down is employee wages. THEN secured creditors, etc....
In Oregon, the Department of Labor will give you up to $2000 of wages owed (and take taxes out of it), and then go after the company for you. I was owed rather more than that, but that's all I got -- I may have signed away the rest to the Dept of Labor to cover their recovery costs. It came in very, very handy.
All 12 of us who were owed money went down to the Dept of Labor together, and they gave us lots of perks and priority because we were all together: a conference room to do our paperwork in, our own caseworker, etc. It was terribly efficient; you should try it.
-- Jeff Paulsen
On the other hand, the fact that it's illegal to stiff your employees out of wages due them, even in a bankruptcy, isn't mentioned in the article...
I'm guessing the slashdot editors have been paying real careful attention to the bankruptcy laws recently.
I wonder why?
Slashdot is jumping the shark. I'm just driving the boat.
Man, this topic is so chock-full of good targets, er, topics, I hardly know where to begin. So here's my ramble:
My view as an employee:
As an employee, I am expected to work X hours in exchange for X dollars. Even if I am on contract, or a full-time salaried employee, that is the contract to which I agree with my employer. When my employer doesn't pay for services rendered, for what ever reason, I am owed compensation.
There are two cases of "employers not paying" that are relevant here:
I make the distinction because one case can occur independently of the other. That is, "my employer has no money and can't pay me" can happen without "I've been terminated/laid off" happening, and the converse is true (when terminated or laid off, the employer may or may not be able to pay you what ever monies are owed to you).
In the first case, you usually can, via legal action, get monies owed to you. In the second, the likelihood of seeing monies owed to you is slim to none. Why? because as an employee (unless you fall under special legislation such as WARN act, and such items), you are an unsecured creditor.
Why does this matter? Because if your company cannot afford to pay you any monies they owe you, they most likely are also having difficulty paying thier other creditors. And if some of those other creditors are secured, that means "they get first kick at the can".
Much of the hardware, software, furniture and other assets are bought with monies acquired by a loan (unless your VC is generous) or via leasing. Those financial arrangements that were made to acquire those assets are almost always secured. So your hardware loan for $300K is secured by the hardware itself. When the company has to pay other bills, aside from salaries, or has to pay up becuase of a default situation, those assets are the first thing to go... to the bank, to the landlord, and any other secured creditors. So even legal action on your part will not get you elevated to the stature of secured creditor, and you'll still be stuck at the end of the line up, waiting for your now-small amount of $ (think: cents paid out on the dollar owed). (I suppose that if a secured creditor and your former employer could prove you had company assets that were part of a security arrangement for financing, the financing company could come after you for those assets! Zoinks! Being sued by a bank? Imagine what that would do to your credit rating!) Because of these security arrangements, your employer will be loathe to actually give you any of these assets in exchange for monies owed to you - these assets already are earmarked for other secured creditors.
So what does this mean in the context of this discussion? Does this change the fact that people who are pissed about being short-changed should stop stealing? You're likely not going to get all that's owed to you. Deal with it. Then decide what's important for you. Sometimes it's better to walk away from a couple of grand, avoid the hassle and headaches and move on.
That being said, I am sympathetic to people to decide to "get creative" with their severance packages - some people cannot afford to throw away several thousand dollars.
"Content's a bitch."
This happened to me recently, I was owed several thousand dollars back pay and was in posession of company equipment.
m l# hotline
t ml
It seemed natural that I should just hold onto the equipment untill I got paid, or just sell it on eBay to recover lost income.
But then I mentioned this to a labor layer and he pointed out that witholding wages in the state of New York is prosecuted as misdemeanor punishable by a fine of up to $20,000.00 with a possibility of jail time!
You can also be awarded triple damages for witheld income.
So I sent back the equipment as quickly as possible and called the New York state attourney general, they were more than happy to help me.
for the New York AG check out:
http://www.oag.state.ny.us/contact/addresses.ht
http://www.oag.state.ny.us/workplace/employer.h
New York City
120 Broadway
New York, New York 10271
(212) 416-8000
Don't forget, there are other options available if you are also shareholder
Lay off the hooch next time you post.
"They may have difficulty blaming themselves when they get laid off, so they direct their anguish at the company."
F- that! So it's my fault I've been laid off from two jobs this year?!? I'm an honest worker, I work 40 solid hours a week, or more. I'm faster, better, stronger than most programmers in the group. I write lean, mean, bug-free code, I learn whatever the f- embedded box or language or API you need to know, in less than a week. I don't take vacation ("stealing from the company"). I only call in sick if I'm on my god damned deathbed. And now it's my fault?!? No f-ing way!
And as for the jackass who complained about us leaving some "cushy" job for a higher pay raise - I never had a stable job. I'm two years out of college, and the only jobs I've had are dot.bombs. And I wasn't making that much either - 65k, after two years, for knowing everything under the sun, getting MCSD certified, and learning C#. When you take into the account the time I have been unemployed - first two months in Feb-Mar, and now since August 1st, I actually don't make much at all.
So f- you, Mr. big shot author. I do my best. I work hard. I learn more in a week than you did in College. And for that, I get kicked in the ass by not only the dot.bombs, but by writers who believe we're all sitting on a pile of riches.
And I never stole anything either.
~Tepp
Tepp
I was offered a job by a friend to work at his new DotCom...
I needed only move away from home and work for free for 6 months.
I considered it and turnned my friend down.
Six months later he seems to have gotten everything going all on his own. Horray for him.
Now he did get me intrested in working for free for a dot com.. thats why I started my own..
If I work for somebody I expect to get paid.
Let me add if I were screwed out of a paycheck I would walk home with something slightly less valuable than my missing paycheck.. and quit..
I will NEVER work for someone who employees blackmail.
As for the employees of companys who pull that. Get together and do the same thing.. only do it RIGHT. A good business plan is more valuable than the hardware assets anyway..
I don't actually exist.
In the immortal words of King Missle:
Um, I'm a Canadian, never had a 401k. But isn't that, well, basically your money, just administered by your employer?
If that's right, then what your former employer did was criminal: it's called theft, and it's against the law. In fact, it's probably pretty serious theft, maybe up in the millions. You should seriously be talking to law enforcement. Those involved in the conspiracy could be looking at some extended jail time.
my old sig used to be funny, but then slashcode ate it and now it's not funny anymore
I'll clump a bunch of responses right here.
[Completely irrelevant aside: if somebody claims to be a "lawyser",
shouldn't they be dispensing "legsal advice" or maybe "legal advuice"
or something like that?]
yeah. but i'm not an accurate tsypsists, either
> OK, so how high a standard do you need for "intent" here?
For criminal purposes, it would be at the time the goods (labor) were acquired. It's going to be tough to make the criminal case, though; it is a very high standard. Also, when companies get *this* far down (that employees won't get paid in bankruptcy), the current shareholders typically get nothing in Chapter 11 save what the creditors are willing to pay them for future work.
> It's not legal advice because
And it isn't applied to a specific set of circumstances, but in general. It's possible to offer legal advice where I"m not admitted, it's just a crime
> I bet that's why iXL kept 'mysteriously losing' the paychecks of ALL
its contractors for at least four or five months in a row rather than
actually saying that they weren't paying htem.
Contractors don't fall under employment law; paying bills late is rarely a crime. The criminal case would be even harder than for employees.
> What about just refusing to return borrowed equipment (such as a home
use computer) until your salary was paid?
This will vary from state to state. You might have a security interest in it (unlikely). More likely, a mechanics lien (the term is used for many types of services) might apply in some states. Civilly, the doctrine is setoff: they owe you a certain amount for labor, you owe them for conversion, and someone pays the difference. Criminally, unless you have an actual right to do so in your state, the unpaid wages would not be a defense (though you're unlikely to be prosecuted).
I don't know where you get your information,
The bankruptcy code and several years of practicing law in bankruptcy courts.
but please post a link
not likely; if I'm going hunting for legal authories, pay me first
and a quote.
You have one. I'm a bankruptcy attorney, among other things
I believe bankruptcy varies state to state:
"Also, laws may vary since the state determines what you can keep, so
even if you may keep your home in Florida, you may lose it in New
York. "
http://www.dollar4dollar.com/bankrupt/txbankt.htm
That is a reference to exemptions, the property the bankrupt keeps. The federal code has a list of exempt property, but debtors bay also use state law exemptions *by explicit permission of the federal code*. States may also opt out of the federal list by statute, again by permission of the federal code.
>I believe there are also several aspects however which are federal,
Everything except federally granted state options on exemption and the law governing the validity of underlying debts.
but your simple statement is just wrong.
No, it isn't--but yours is ignorant. You are taking an out of context quote and applying it in general. This is why it is so dangerous to rely on friends instead of lawyers for legal advice . . .
hawk, esq.
This still isn't legal advice. If you can't find the full disclaimer above, you're too damned stupid to understand it anyway . . .
I'll clump a bunch of responses right here.
>[Completely irrelevant aside: if somebody claims to be a "lawyser",
>shouldn't they be dispensing "legsal advice" or maybe "legal advuice"
>or something like that?]
yeah. but i'm not an accurate tsypsists, either
>OK, so how high a standard do you need for "intent" here?
For criminal purposes, it would be at the time the goods (labor) were acquired. It's going to be tough to make the criminal case, though; it is a very high standard. Also, when companies get *this* far down (that employees won't get paid in bankruptcy), the current shareholders typically get nothing in Chapter 11 save what the creditors are willing to pay them for future work.
>It's not legal advice because
And it isn't applied to a specific set of circumstances, but in general. It's possible to offer legal advice where I"m not admitted, it's just a crime
>I bet that's why iXL kept 'mysteriously losing' the paychecks of ALL
>its contractors for at least four or five months in a row rather
than
>actually saying that they weren't paying htem.
Contractors don't fall under employment law; paying bills late is rarely a crime. The criminal case would be even harder than for employees.
>What about just refusing to return borrowed equipment (such as a home
>use computer) until your salary was paid?
This will vary from state to state. You might have a security interest in it (unlikely). More likely, a mechanics lien (the term is used for many types of services) might apply in some states. Civilly, the doctrine is setoff: they owe you a certain amount for labor, you owe them for conversion, and someone pays the difference. Criminally, unless you have an actual right to do so in your state, the unpaid wages would not be a defense (though you're unlikely to be prosecuted).
>I don't know where you get your information,
The bankruptcy code and several years of practicing law in bankruptcy courts.
>but please post a link
not likely; if I'm going hunting for legal authories, pay me first
>and a quote.
You have one. I'm a bankruptcy attorney, among other things
>I believe bankruptcy varies state to state:
>"Also, laws may vary since the state determines what you can keep, so
>even if you may keep your home in Florida, you may lose it in New
>York. "
>http://www.dollar4dollar.com/bankrupt/txbankt. htm
That is a reference to exemptions, the property the bankrupt keeps. The federal code has a list of exempt property, but debtors bay also use state law exemptions *by explicit permission of the federal code*. States may also opt out of the federal list by statute, again by permission of the federal code.
>I believe there are also several aspects however which are federal,
Everything except federally granted state options on exemption and the law governing the validity of underlying debts.
>but your simple statement is just wrong.
No, it isn't--but yours is ignorant. You are taking an out of context
quote and applying it in general. This is why it is so dangerous to
rely on friends instead of lawyers for legal advice . . .
hawk, esq.
I know of companies where employees have gone without pay or with lesser pay for months because they would rather have somewhere to keep working and they like working there, than chuck a hissy fit about their pay being late once or twice. And yes I would call people who take money without being told to "dishonest". What's with slashdot lately, it's like everyone is trying to be geekier than thou..?? Is there some secret conspiracy going on? We must all boycott any companies who are so evil as to try and provide for customers or stay in business, and replace them with a bunch of antisocial know-alls who refuse to do anything? Homey, PLEASE.