McNealy Calls for National ID Card Too

Syre writes: "Well McNealy's at it again calling for a national ID card (a smart card powered by Java, anyone?)." So let's get this straight: Oracle wants a national ID card powered by Oracle. Sun wants a national ID card powered by Java. (Even though the U.S. already has a national ID card, since the states are in the process of linking their driver's license databases together.) Is there any company that doesn't want to exploit a tragedy for financial gain? And didn't each and every one of the hijackers present valid ID?

Comments

I want a Microsoft National ID card!

[WillSeattle]

Think about it. Easy to hack, no security, have to reboot all the time, and you always have a lawyer on call.

Re:I want a Microsoft National ID card!

[TheAncientHacker]

Hmmm. Let's see.

On Privacy:

• SUN and Oracle say "Privacy is dead, get over it"
  
• Microsoft adds privacy features to IE.
  

On the 9/11 terrorism

• SUN and Oracle use the Trade Center tragedy to push a Java/Oracle based National ID card.
• Microsoft quietly creates (providing the hardware, software, consulting and bandwidth) a tracking web site for victim's families so they can find out who's alive.
  

Right, I understand now, SUN and Oracle are the good guys and Microsoft is evil.

Yeah. Right.

Re:I want a Microsoft National ID card!

[FatherOfONe]

Your points don't make sense.

It is true that McNealy says that privacy is dead, but that has nothing to do with a smart card that would replace your social security number. Where did he say that the card would protect your privacy? The card would have nothing to do with privacy, but would have a lot to do with identification.

Do I think that the card is a bad idea? Yes. But I also think that Social Security is a bad idea also.

I think a point that everyone is missing is that no matter what security levels you put in; if a person is willing to die for their cause, it will be almost impossible to stop them from doing acts of terrorisim. Would it have stopped anything on the 11'th if these guys would have had Oracle/Sun/Microsoft/Linux smart cards? Nope.

Would an armed person at the front of the plane have stopped them? Yes.

Re:I want a Microsoft National ID card!

[rark]

You know, just because MS is showing some clue doesn't mean they still don't suck (though I'll grant that Sun and Oracle suck as well -- and if they were in MS's position they'd probably suck more)

but yes, I'm inclined to agree with you in this case, MS is being better behaved, and a better 'corporate citizen' or however you wish to put it

I still don't think a national ID card (for anyone) is useful or wise

Re:I want a Microsoft National ID card!

[WillSeattle]

NO -- Microsoft is a corporation who's primary job is to generate value for it's shareholders.

Nothing more. Nothing less.

And a fairly efficient one at that.

Um, I'm a shareholder of Microsoft, and it's still funny. Man, you guys are way too serious.

In real life, an ID card probably wouldn't prove much use. Better border and student visa controls for non-citizens might, on the other hand.

ANOTHER one?

[keytoe]

So, what's wrong with all the other national ID cards we carry around in our wallets? Social Security card not good enough? My drivers license not good enough? Passport? Credit cards? As if the government can't find out who I am using these 'old' methods.

Exactly what advantage does yet another card have? I'm sure they'll be just as easy to counterfeit as current identification methods...

Re:ANOTHER one?

[jiheison]

No, no, NO!

This time, it's gonna work. You just watch and see!

Oh, and by the way. . .how DARE you criticize our government during this time of crisis and national unity behind our leaders?

Re:ANOTHER one?

[nyquist_theorem]

At the risk of sounding overly pessimistic, I would have to concede that the *vast* majority of American society acts (spends, purchases, travels, fills out stupid contest forms, surfs the web, etc etc) in such a way that there is no real privacy or anonymity. The addition of a single universal identification card is not going to change that one way or the other, for the simple reason that it would stay in your wallet 99.9% of the time. Purchasing something? Use your tracked-and-databased credit card, or some cash you withdrew using your tracked-and-databased bank card. Heck, even write a tracked-and-databased cheque or fill out a tracked-and-databased withdrawal slip at the local bank if you're really old-fashioned. Given the phenomenal popularity of so-called "rewards programs", with their accompanying tracked-and-databased "membership cards" in virtually every sector of consumer-ness, its pretty hard to advance the argument that the average computer gives an arse about his or her privacy. The card would come out for international travel, airline boardings, government service renewals (license and plate renewals, traffic stops, airport visits, etc). Even if the government has this information, so what? It's not like they're not going to figure out based on your credit card / airline paper trail. The difference is the speed with which felons / unwanted persons can be found - "you can't come on the plane, you're under arrest" versus "CNN has just learned that person x, who flew into the World Trade Center last month, was actually tagged in a government database somewhere!"

With the assumption that the intent of this program would be protect those who obey the law (ie joe citizen), what exactly is wrong with adopting a federal identification system?

According to a recent Washington Post article, there are more than a half million Americans wandering around the country with outstanding arrest warrants. That's ten times the adult population of the country I'm in, so forgive me for saying it sounds like a lot of criminals. One particularly telling quote from that article of interest to the original poster and his theory of "isn't our drivers license enough?": "Right now, if you have an outstanding parking ticket, you can't get your license renewed. But if you have a murder warrant out on you, you still get your license renewed," said Mike Davis, spokesman for the Baltimore County Executive Office.

Perhaps I'm being too logical here, but it seems a system of national identity cards would do a lot more good than harm. A half million felons. Hnmm.

As for the counterfeiting option, one would hope that Sun, Oracle and the feds could between them come up with a card that could not be easily counterfeited, and that could be updated remotely as security breaches were identified. Assuming it was connected to an "active" system (ie cards can be validated / invalidated by a central server so that duplicates and/or invalid cards would be ferreted out quickly, unlike the passive systems such as used in DirecTV et al).

Like bicycle locks and car alarms, a universal, centrally-administered digital ID card represents an item that would be totally unneccesary if it weren't for the criminal element in society. Sad, but becoming increasingly neccesary IMHO. (whew, I'm done... anyone still reading?)

(abovementioned WP article here - http://www.browardcrime.com/tyntk_052000_fugitives .htm)

Re:ANOTHER one?

[Hostile17]

You are way off base here. A national ID card will not protect you or me in way shape or form. All it really does is give the governement another control mechanism. Do you really think a national ID card would have stopped any of the Terrorists from boarding those planes ? Do you really think a national ID card will stop anyone from beating thier kids or robbing a bank ? If you do you are deluding yourself. The idea behind a national ID card is not to hamper crominals, but to hamper honest citizens.

Re:ANOTHER one?

[Jordy]

Exactly what advantage does yet another card have? I'm sure they'll be just as easy to counterfeit as current identification methods...


Uhm, no. The current security of ID cards relies on the fact that it's hard to create a physical duplicate of the card itself. This is mediocre compared to the system being proposed.

A real smart card would have enough space on it for a real cryptographic signature that can guarantee (unless of course the key is comprimised) that this particular card was issued by the good old USA. Coupled with issue and expiration dates, this alone would be vastly superior to anything we have currently and provide a significant barrier to counterfietters.

But that's not all. If you had a real-time lookup system to verify that an ID was in fact issued at all and each card itself had it's own unique entry in the system you end up with a system that is resistant to even key comprimises.

On top of that, if you require unique characteristics such as fingerprint, DNA, retinal scan, heat signature and photo to be gathered at the time of issue of the ID so you could do duplicate scanning (one person can't have two IDs) you end up with a system which is orders of magnitude more secure than what currently exists.
You could even go a step further and only allow a particular machine to be able to read the cards that are only allowed to be operated by government workers subjected to stringent FBI background checks and self-destruct if tampered with. The card itself would obviously also be tamper-resistant.

Even more impressive is that if this was done properly, you could subject every person entering the country to it and in real-time issue temporary IDs that would allow even foreigners who may lie about themselves to never be allowed to lie twice.

Of course, what would be better than a national ID is an international ID (which passports are for, but are pretty poor... ink stamps when entering and leaving a country, please.) Though at least they have barcodes and pretty holograms.

Then again, you have to understand how traditional counterfietting is done. Rarely does anyone actually create a fake ID. Instead, you find an incompetent DMV in some state, steal enough ID information and let them create a nice new ID for you. A well run national ID program would prevent this.

Re:ANOTHER one?

[billh]

Do you really carry around your social security card? Why? I haven't even seen my in ten years, can't think of one place I've ever needed it. Anyone that would accept that as an ID might as well take a Radio Shack Battery Club card.

And do people in the US carry around their passports? Expecting to leave the country with no notice??? I'm serious here. I carry around a driver's license when I drive, a credit card, insurance card (required to drive in some states), and some money.

Re:ANOTHER one?

[Karl Cocknozzle]

"Right now, if you have an outstanding parking ticket, you can't get your license renewed. But if you have a murder warrant out on you, you still get your license renewed," said Mike Davis, spokesman for the Baltimore County Executive Office.

This is a good argument for searching the criminal warrants DB when you run a license, then calling the police. A much simpler (and cheaper) solution that giving Oracle $5 billion and saying "make it work".

Perhaps I'm being too logical here, but it seems a system of national identity cards would do a lot more good than harm.

As for the counterfeiting option, one would hope that Sun, Oracle and the feds could between them come up with a card that could not be easily counterfeited, and that could be updated remotely as security breaches were identified.

Assuming it was connected to an "active" system (ie cards can be validated / invalidated by a central server so that duplicates and/or invalid cards would be ferreted out quickly

It's a good fantasy, but here are the problems (the biggest three that come to mind):

1) Price. The "ID Card" you're describing sounds more like a PDA with wireless networking than an inanimate piece of plastic. How much will that cost to develop/deliver?
2) Network. What wireless network will these cards use to be "validated/invalidated by a central server"? As far as I know, there isn't a nationwide (covering everywhere people live and work) wireless network that could provide this service.
3) Ineffective. This system is only useful against people who are using their own identity to get ID. Anybody who (gasp!) uses false documents to get one is undetectable until after the fact. This alone makes this entire system completely useless.

Nope. Not a good idea in the least. Maybe in Candyland, but not here.

Re:ANOTHER one?

[big_hairy_mama]

You're absolutely right that it will not *stop* crime from happening - there is no way anything the government does is going to stop someone from robbing a bank unless they have some kind of electric field around the bank that reads the ID cards shocks any felons who try to enter. But, theoretically at least, this *would* help them track the criminals when they renew their drivers license or go through a border crossing, or any other time like that.

I don't have a problem with the idea of a national ID card. If you want privacy, then you're pretty much out of luck in the US because, like previous posters have pointed out, every time you go to a bank, show your drivers license, or use a credit card, or even every time you sign on to your MSN or AOL, somebody somewhere is tracking you.

The problem I have is that, considering that there is nothing stopping the government from keeping tight tabs on anyone and everyone using current technology/infrustructure, why do we need to go through the extra trouble, time, and money to implemenent a whole new card? Why can't they just use the existing state ID card, Social Security, or passport databases?

Re:ANOTHER one?

[sallen]

Social security cards are too easy to counterfeit, passports are for people who travel abroad, driver's licenses for people who drive and credit cards are for people with credit. That leaves a piece of the population who can't identify itself, which leads to many headaches.
Countries with national ID's don't have this problem and their citizens don't feel like the nasty government is plotting to tattoo a barcode on their ass. At least I don't. Would you feel better if, instead of introducing a new ID, social security cards became harder to forge? Because I don't see the difference.

Sure. And what happens to those who's inadvertantly been assigned the same social security number (i don't want to use the normal acronym SS number here, that's too scary). What happens to them? The INS can't handle those aliens who are in the country even legally at this point, which most of the terrorists were, and for whom there wouldn't be the extensive backgroud as there would already be on US citizens. So how in the hell would a national id card have helped?? And just how many people does it take to 'track' 270+ million people? McNealy is an a-hole, and for an old man, I'm not one to usually use that kind of term. But these knee-jerk reactions are totally absurd. Some of the terrorists did overstay their visa's. So what, even if we clamped down there, they likely would have been able to renew them. Again, most were here legally and most were unknown to the law enforcement agencies. That's not to say I'm not in favor of getting the CIA back into the business they were meant to be in and beefing up and greatly expanding their abilities. There ability to function was emasculated by some of those Congress types, and so many wanting to be so PC. I'd bet on them before I would any stupid idiotic national id card, sponsored by a number more of those stupid PC folks. (If that weren't the case they'd at first think logically it'd be better to start getting a handle on aliens in the country, being a smaller number and wish less known backgrounds. But that wouldn't be PC for them, so they'd rather come up with a system that'd be impossible to handle/control, make the amounts of data the NSA and others have to sift through look like a single 3X5 card compared to whatever new agency would control this, and essentially do little else than having the founding fathers rolling in their graves.) I knew an INS guy who was there as his second career after military. All through the 90's he was always frustrated because the folks in the field couldn't do their jobs and activity was halted by washington because they didn't want to look bad, get bad press, or not be, hell, to use it again, PC.

Re:ANOTHER one?

[jcr]

> A well run national ID program would prevent this.

Right now, for around a grand, you can go to a street corner in LA and get a perfectly valid California Driver's license issued in any name you want, which would IN FACT have a corresponding entry in the DMV database. It would surprise me tremendously if there's any state in the union where you can't do the same.

Corruption abounds, and a national ID card is simply one more opportunity for it to flourish.

I don't give a rat's ass about the feasibility of implementing a national ID card, I reject the idea on the principle that our federal government has no business at all keeping dossiers on ANYONE who's not under investigation for a FEDERAL felony.

If legislation requiring a national ID card is passed, I for one will not apply for it, and I'll sue the shit out of anyone who tries to make me.

-jcr

Re:ANOTHER one?

[wurp]

You left out the most important part. As I posted earlier, you need to sign the photo, fingerprint, etc. together with the name, birthdate, ID number, etc. as one document. Otherwise you can just lift the identifying information from one card and the signed ID from another and put 'em together to make a fake ID.

Re:ANOTHER one?

[dgroskind]

If legislation requiring a national ID card is passed, I for one will not apply for it.

The type of penalties you would face might be similar to those faced by men between the age of 18 and 26 who fail to register for the draft:
Failure to register or otherwise comply with the Military Selective Service Act is upon conviction, punishable by a fine of up to $250,000, imprisonment for up to five years, or both. In addition, federal and certain state laws require registration as a prerequisite for obtaining student financial aid, job training, government employment, and U.S. naturalization.

The loss of liberties from a national ID card, though onerous, are many times less than the loss of liberty entailed by being drafted. If the draft is constitutional, I can't see how a national ID card wouldn't also be constitutional.

In fact, the loss of privacy involved in filing income tax forms every year is at least as great as that of a national ID card. Conceivably the same sort of restrictions on the disclosure of tax information would apply to the ID card.

If there is a national ID card and if it sustains a Supreme Court challenge and if you don't want to go to jail for 5 years, you might want to consider immigrating to Canada, which has a long history of accepting refugees from the United States.

Re:ANOTHER one?

[truthsearch]

It's very simple. The US Constitution rightfully contains the following:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Credit card purchases, bank transactions, customer loyalty cards, phone bills, and other such personal information can not be investigated without probable cause, details of what is being searched, and consent of a judge. Getting a universal tracking card basically gives up that right given by the fourth amendment. So yes, we can be tracked by corporations, and corporations could potentially share that information with other corporations, but the government may not be given any such information without warrant. This card gives the government the right to track us without warrant, without even probably cause.

For example, let's say I protest outside the congressional office of a senator. I have a right to free speech, but there's nothing preventing him from tracking me down and possibly using my personal information against me, like blackmail.

These ID cards can only be used at the expense of civil liberties.

Re:ANOTHER one?

[mpe]

We do have a lot of ID, and it sucks. This causes a great deal of fraud and commercial identity theft. A national standard based on encryption and biometrics may not be
perfect, but it would be better than what we have.

More likely it will make identity theft easier since all the criminal then needs in one document, which will work for everything...

Re:ANOTHER one?

[Mr. Slippery]

If the draft is constitutional, I can't see how a national ID card wouldn't also be constitutional.

Well, the draft isn't constitutional - the closest power of the federal government is "calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions", but that clearly doesn't apply to sending people out of the country.

And since Amendment XIII was passed (in 1865), there's absolutely no authority for the government to compel military service - it's "involuntary servitude".

Of course, being unconstitutional hasn't stopped many other laws and acts of government.

Re:ANOTHER one?

[Mr. Slippery]

Do you really carry around your social security card? Why? I haven't even seen my in ten years, can't think of one place I've ever needed it.

I don't carry it, but I've needed it several times over the past few years. When I've taken a new job, I've needed it as proof of citizenship and thus the "right to work in the United States", as the paperwork puts it.

There are a few other authentication tokens that would work; I think a passport could substitute, but I don't have one.

Re:ANOTHER one?

[Jordy]

They are most definately not immature high tech for finding duplicate persons. When doing real-time analysis maybe... but if you have more than a minute to make a decision, the quality of these types of biometrics systems goes up dramatically (with the exception of DNA and photo recognition, I just threw those in as things they'd want to get from you anyway :)

Granted, the type of CPU power you'd need to do a fingerprint match against 300 million people in a reasonable amount of time is a bit staggering, but it is completely doable.

Re:ANOTHER one?

[dgroskind]

Well, the draft isn't constitutional...

As recently as June, 1981, the Supreme Court considered the constitutionality of the draft and found that "Congress acted well within its constitutional authority to raise and regulate armies and navies" under Article I, Section 8.

In ruling on the draft for World War I, the Supreme Court said: ``As we are unable to conceive upon what theory the exaction by government from the citizen of the performance of his supreme and noble duty of contributing to the defense of the rights and honor of the nation, as the result of a war declared by the great representative body of the people, can be said to be the imposition of involuntary servitude in violation of the prohibitions of the Thirteenth Amendment, we are constrained to the conclusion that the contention to that effect is refuted by its mere statement."

The presumption here is that the draft is a noble duty, not servitude. Somewhere in there might be the basis for ID cards: carrying them is a duty like paying taxes, not an invasion of privacy.

Still, the police need probably cause to stop a citizen and demand identification. I can't see how carrying the ID card would give the police any greater powers to demand to see it.

Re:ANOTHER one?

[Mr. Slippery]

...the Supreme Court considered the constitutionality of the draft and found that "Congress acted well within its constitutional authority to raise and regulate armies and navies" under Article I, Section 8.

The rampant illiteracy of the courts does not change the content of the Constitution.

Unfortunately, the government acting in concert with that document has long been the exception rather than the rule.

The draft is in the same category with federal drug laws, censorship laws, and gun control laws - supported not by a firm foundation of law, but instead dangling from the barrel of a gun.

The opinions of the court on these topics belong on the dungheap of history, next to the Korematsu and Dred Scott decisions.

Words from the mouths of babes

[DoomHaven]

"Absolute anonymity breeds absolute irresponsibility"

So, Mr. McNealy, shall we assume you are now absolutely anonymous?

"I'm tired of the outrage. If you get on a plane, I want to know who you are. If you rent a crop duster, I want to know who you are,'' he said.

If you head a large corporation, I want to know who you are.

A long time ago, this man was respectable. What happened?

Re:Words from the mouths of babes

[Ghoser777]

If you build a house, I want to know who you are. Otherwise you might be able to combine different household chemicals to create chemical weapons that could wipe out the world.

If you have privacy, I want to know who you are. Anytime the government does not have complete control over what you are doing is a security risk. We cannot not let petty issues like "freedom" stand in the way of protecting American ideals.

F-bacher

Re:Words from the mouths of babes

[BlowCat]

Let me guess where you live. It must be the United States of America. If that's correct please read on. Ask yourself the following question: is the main reason why people in other countries don't like Americans because Americans have a better democracy? Re-read your comment. Now ask yourself the same question again. Compare the answers.

Thanks for your time.

Re:Words from the mouths of babes

[sql*kitten]

I'm tired of the outrage. If you get on a plane, I want to know who you are

McNealy, if I get on a plane that you own, then you have a a right to know who I am. If I get on a plane that Delta owns, then they have a right to know who I am. Oh wait, they already do, because they have my Amex details and they checked my passport when I picked up my e-ticket. What value does another form of ID add over that?

And what benefit would it have, even if it were practical, for all passengers to know who the other passengers are?

Re:Words from the mouths of babes

[tb3]

Given Slashdot demographics, I'm probably way older than the pair 'o you, and trust me, he has never been respectable.

What are the exact criteria?

[dan_bethe]

I never see mention of the Social Security system as a form of national ID. Why is that? Is it because the card doesn't directly identify more personal characteristics such as a photo, address, or phone number?

What info do these "authorities" want? Under what circumstances can they requisition this information, or ask the person to make an ID?

I can understand using it in a fully secure situation such as boarding a plane, assuming that such a thing is Constitutional and isn't yet another link into the Revelations style end of humanity, and assuming that it can be used accurately.

Of course the answer to that last question fades off into potential violation of independant liberty, as in requiring national criminal ID for renting a truck in case you intend to load it with a fertilizer bomb. But I think at least the previous questions should be reasonably answered.

Re:What are the exact criteria?

[FrostyWheaton]

SSN's are not to be used as a "national ID" because it is prohibited by law. No person, except the SSA and the IRS can force you to provide your SSN. Sure everyone asks for it wen tyou sign up for anything, but you are never obligated to give it. And no one can deny service because of it.

Re:What are the exact criteria?

[ahrenritter]

I do not believe this is not true.

According to this document, several institutions are allowed to require or request your SSN.

Furthermore, the SSA states,

"If a business or other enterprise asks you for your SSN, you can refuse to give it. However, that may mean doing without the purchase or service for which your number was requested."

Re:What are the exact criteria?

[NMerriam]

No person, except the SSA and the IRS can force you to provide your SSN.

This is totally incorrect. Like the constitution, it limits only what the GOVERNMENT may do.

Businesses can require your SS# as a condition of doing business, and many do.

But government agencies must provide you with an explicit reference to what law allows them to ask for your SS#, whether or not it is voluntary, and what the info will be used for. You'll find this information on the bottom of most any federal form (like your taxes) that you fill out with a SS#...

Re:What are the exact criteria?

[witort]

What info do these "authorities" want?

If you're reading this, then your Slashdot ID and your geek code will probably be enough for them...

Re:What are the exact criteria?

[mpe]

One of the examples seemed to imply the use of triggers like if you rent a truck and then buy tons of fertalizer and you are not a farmer maybe the fbi will give you a little knock on the door or something.

And how to you verify if someone is or isn't a farmer? Let alone that a terrorist might actually be a farmer or farm worker...

Re:What are the exact criteria?

[Danse]

Who cares anymore. The SSN has already become a national ID number. Try getting any financial services without it.

Driver's Licenses

[vicviper]

How can a driver's license count as a national ID card if everyone doesn't drive, or qualify for one?

Re:Driver's Licenses

[SIGFPE]

In the US DMV's will issue cards even if you can't or won't drive. See this or that

Re:Driver's Licenses

[Heem]

Because you can (and should) get a state ID if you choose not to drive, or cant pass the test. How else you gonna buy porn,smokes and lotto tickets, or go out to the bar? Seriously though.. ID cards are great and all, but we already have them, and its NOT going to do anything for us. Having an ID does not stop one from blowing things up. Especially the breed we are dealing with now - ones who DONT CARE if they die, and PREFER that we know who they are.

Re:Driver's Licenses

[SCHecklerX]

If you don't have a driver's license, you can get a state ID (DUI folks do this so they can still go drink, go figure). But why should you have to pay for something that would be required?

Re:Driver's Licenses

[jeffy124]

in NJ (and most, if not all, other states) if you are 18 or older, you're required to obtain an ID card from the Dept Motor Vehicles regardless of if you drive or not. The card says across the top "Identification Purposes Only." Oddly, there's still a DL# that's used for writing checks and such.

Re:Driver's Licenses

[Deanasc]

"How else you gonna buy porn,smokes and lotto tickets, or go out to the bar?"

Unfortunately not every state has good laws. Massachusetts will allow the purchase of alcohol only with a Massachusetts drivers license. The non-driving state ID is actaully not valid for the purchase of alcohol. The US passport or any other foreign passport is not legal for the purchase of alcohol. A New Hampshire drivers license is not valid for the purchase of alcohol.

Places that accept these items are open to severe liability problems as well as loss of their Liquer License.

So basically any national ID will still need to be approved on a state by state basis for use as per local laws.

Re:Driver's Licenses

[Bullschmidt]

Being a former student in MA (just graduated), I can say that you are 100% wrong (at least in practice). I only have a CA DL, and bought alcohol in bars and in stores all the time. I know of people who have used BAD fakes in bars in MA. Yes, MA has rough blue laws regarding WHEN you can purchase alcohol. But trust me, at least in practice, it doesn't take much to buy alcohol.

Re:Driver's Licenses

[jeffy124]

i dont know if it's a LAW per se, it might just be something they prefer you do. IOW, you could probably get by w/o having one of these.

Back in high school I worked at a retail store that wanted your DL# for checks. I saw a few of the "ID ONLY" cards because of that. The cards are intended for people who don't drive, but need an identification card anyhow (i think i misworded that part in my original post).

The card has a DL formatted number (first letter of last name followed by 14 digits). If the person where to go and take the tests and get a full license, that number would simply transfer over. (Drivers permits work the same way)

The card overall looks like any other photo DL, except in the spot where it normally says "Class D Auto Operator License" it says "**Identification Purposes Only**" (w/ the asteriks)

Re:Driver's Licenses

[ckd]

Massachusetts will allow the purchase of alcohol only with a Massachusetts drivers license. The non-driving state ID is actaully not valid for the purchase of alcohol. The US passport or any other foreign passport is not legal for the purchase of alcohol. A New Hampshire drivers license is not valid for the purchase of alcohol.

Well, you're right about the last one, and right that a Massachusetts license is legal, but wrong about the rest.

Massachusetts General Laws, Chapter 138, Section 34B:
"Any licensee, or agent or employee thereof, under this chapter who reasonably relies on such a liquor purchase identification card or motor vehicle license issued pursuant to section eight of chapter ninety, or on a valid passport issued by the United States government, or by the government, recognized by the United States government, of a foreign country, or a valid United States issued military identification card, for proof of a person's identity and age shall not suffer [...]"

So the accepted forms of ID:

• Massachusetts Driver's License
• Massachusetts Liquor ID
• US passport
• Passport issued by a diplomatically recognized government (no Sealand, no Taliban)
• US military ID (which they define as the active duty cards only--not dependent IDs

Re:Driver's Licenses

[jeffy124]

NJ has no DB (at least of DL photos). The photo on your driver's license is a mini-polaroid print. If you lose your license, you have to go to a DMV and get a new picture taken.

In PA, OTOH, they store your pic in a DB. If you lose your license there, they can send you a new one that reuses the photo off the original.

Re:Driver's Licenses

[jeffy124]

it might simply be one of those laws they actively enforce. It's sorta one of those pointless laws on the books that can be useful in rare circumstances. Chances are pretty good the 10 people you speak of have never been in a situation where they've had to show ID to a police officer or something, so they're able to slide by without having an ID.

an example where it would be enforced is if someone were to be arrested and not own an ID, that's when they would enforce a requirement like that. By the person not having ID, it unnecessarily causes the police extra work, and they can recoup some of that with a fine or something, using this law as grounds for it.

Keep in mind I'm not sure of the law (if it even is one) or penalties. I simply made the post to indicate that NJ residents who dont drive are able to go to a DMV to obtain some identification card that's consistent with normal state drivers licenses.

Re:Driver's Licenses

[LinuxHam]

n NJ (and most, if not all, other states) if you are 18 or older, you're required to obtain an ID card from the Dept Motor Vehicles regardless of if you drive or not.

What??? I lived in NJ for 3 years. I'd never heard of such a law. Is it new? Can you provide a reference?

I lived there for 24 years and never heard of any such thing either.

P.S. Hey New Jerseyans, when you get tired of living in a police state, move to PA. It's actually *legal* to drive in the middle of the night, and the local PD is not *allowed* to have radar. I moved across the Delaware 7 years ago, and now I truly hate going back.

Re:Driver's Licenses

[LinuxHam]

n PA, OTOH, they store your pic in a DB. If you lose your license there, they can send you a new one that reuses the photo off the original.

And the photo kiosks were running OS/2 at my last visit! (kinda like ATMs) And since IBM had a big contract with PASP, none of that surprises me.

Re:Driver's Licenses

[ktakki]

Unfortunately not every state has good laws. Massachusetts will allow the purchase of alcohol only with a Massachusetts drivers license. The non-driving state ID is actaully not valid for the purchase of alcohol. The US passport or any other foreign passport is not legal for the purchase of alcohol. A New Hampshire drivers license is not valid for the purchase of alcohol.

Others have correctly pointed out that this statement is wrong (liquor stores and bars have booklets that show samples of out-of-state licenses, and I've seen foreign passports accepted as proof of age).

However, none of these venues will accept a duplicate Mass. license (one that is issued if the original license is lost or stolen) because of the fraud associated with replacement licenses.

k.

Re:Driver's Licenses

[egburr]

In Texas, a Texas driver's license is required for the purchase of alcohol. A newcomer to the state applying for a Texas driver's license first has the previous state's license confiscated and only then is told to expect the new license in a few weeks. In the meantime, a typed card is provided as a temporary license, with NO photo. You can not purchase, alcohol, cash checks, use a credit card (in the few stores that actually demand a photo ID), or any of a myriad other things that people demand photo IDs for, even though that is my official, state-issued, temporary ID and driver's license. I was even afraid of being stopped for any reason for fear the cop wouldn't accept it as valid ID. Four weeks later, I received my new driver's license in the mail!

I would love to have a national form of ID, because no state should have the ability or authority to so thoroughly wipe out my identity, even on a temporary basis.

Re:Driver's Licenses

[mpe]

Unfortunately not every state has good laws. Massachusetts will allow the purchase of alcohol only with a Massachusetts drivers license. The non-driving state ID is actaully not valid for the purchase of alcohol. The US passport or any other foreign passport is not legal for the purchase of alcohol. A New Hampshire drivers license is not valid for the purchase of alcohol.

Encouraging drunk driving and violating the US constitution in one go, that's good.

Re:Driver's Licenses

[dazed-n-confused]

Having an ID does not stop one from blowing things up. Especially the breed we are dealing with now - ones who DONT CARE if they die, and PREFER that we know who they are.

Yeah, but it'll stop repeat offenders. Nobody's ever going to be able to crash a second airplane into a building -- we'll tag their card the first time around, and be on the lookout.

Re:Driver's Licenses

[jeffy124]

lol... similar situation for me at a liquor store in MD. I was out-of-town on an internship near Wasshington back when I first turned 21. I had to settle for a non-photo for awhile because I wasnt able to get to jersey during the week.

Even though I had my previous (although expired) license that could verify my photo (by matching the DL# with the current) AND my school ID, one day they decided not to take the license despite having gone there about once every 3 weeks until that point.

No problem though, just went to another liquor store :)

and another thing!

[mysticbob]

q: and, do we know the hijackers got their knives on the planes through check-in?

a: no - let's increase check-in security.

q: do we know that bin laden is _actually_ responsible, not just capable?

a: no, let's bomb the hell out of the taliban.

this type of reactionary non-critical thinking is rampant so many places and it makes me grumpy. grr.

but i digress...

Oracle ID - the price of freedom?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Oracle ID card would have an initial cost of $100,000 and require a fulltime DBA to administer.

Re:Oracle ID - the price of freedom?

[sharkey]

The Oracle ID card would have an initial cost of $100,000 and require a fulltime DBA to administer.

It would also require 2387 separate patches upon receipt of the card, BEFORE it is placed in your wallet to keep it from spontaneously collapsing in upon itself on first use.

Also, that $100,000 is per pocket in your wallet: 2 bill pockets and 8 card pockets such as my wallet has would cost $1,000,000 up front.

Re:Oracle ID - the price of freedom?

[jea6]

Don't forget that Oracle will also only LICENSE you your ID card. Your wallet constituting 16 Units is $1000000 for a perpetual named user license. Also available are 2 to 4 year licenses, after which you cease to have an identity (card). Fortunately, Oracle is no longer licensing by Power Unit, whereby your 16 Units are multiplied by your weight. AND for some reason everybody assumes that this ID will be credit card sized: the Oracle ID will require you to buy a very expensive large wallet from Sun. Crafting your own Linux wallet will be rolled out as well, but it will not fit in your back pocket.

If you get a Java ID instead, you will not be able to use to completely identify yourself with 95% of people. And eventually, 95% of people will no longer recognize your Java ID.

And, of course, we have yet to hear from IBM...

Terriorist ID's

[leinerj]

The terriorist did indeed present valid ID's, but under more careful exam. some of the id's were expired which should have set alarms off in securities head...

Re:Terriorist ID's

[SecurityGuy]

Not really. A valid, non forgeable ID (see vaporware, n.) indicates that you have proven that you are the person describes on the card. It doesn't mean you are that person for 1, 2, or 4 years. Requiring renewing an ID is nothing more than taxation. If you have an old drivers license and don't drive anymore, there's not a great reason to renew it. Oddly, some people do seem to believe that an expired license is less of an identifier. I'm not sure why that's so, other than perhaps you're more likely to find a discarded expired ID. But then, that just goes to the point that they're not terribly hard to forge anyway.

Re:Terriorist ID's

[srvivn21]

Except that as you grow older, your facial complex changes. Sure some people dye their hair on a weekly basis, and others make almost as frequent use of cosmetic surgeons, but for most of us change is slow but certain.

If I was still carrying an ID from high school, the picture might be representative of me. But not as much as an ID that's less than 5 years old.

In my opinion there is a very valid reason that Social Sexurity cards don't expire, but picture IDs do.

Business as usual

[Maskirovka]

Sorry to play the devil's advocate here, but these people are payed the big bucks to enrich their stock holders. It's their sole purpose. This is an excelent oportunity for them to do so. Wtf do you expect from any self respecting CEO?? (excluding Steve Jobs maybe)

Maskirovka

Re:Business as usual

[TheAncientHacker]

Wtf do you expect from any self respecting CEO??
To provide for the long-term best interests of their company. That is their job.

It is not to provide short term stock price manipulation much as it may seem that way when the sleaziest CEOs run their companies to increase their stock based bonuses.

Oracle's plan

[aralin]

You should maybe try to find the recent speach or article published by Larry Ellison on the topic. Oracle does not plan to take away any of your liberties or profit on a national tragedy.

Larry Ellison pointed out that all the information is already in some databases, but while businesses like VISA, AMEX and others poll their databases and link these data together, federal agencies do NOT. If they did, 6 of these 19 terrorists would have been CAUGHT at entry and the attack would likely NEVER happen since they were sought for in some counties in US. How can someone get into the country without notice by INS when he is on 'Wanted' list on Florida?

The other point I've heard was that (as I've heard) Oracle planed to donate database software for the purpose of creating the global ID.

And last, but not least, the plan for global ID proposed by Larry Ellison should have been on voluntary basis to make things for you convenient and avoid these long and thorough checks of identity that will definitely appear on different wanna-be-secure locations like airports.

Get your facts straight, please, before starting to slander someone's ideas.

Re:Oracle's plan

[corky6921]

"...while businesses like VISA, AMEX and others poll their databases and link these data together, federal agencies do NOT. If they did, 6 of these 19 terrorists would have been CAUGHT at entry and the attack would likely NEVER happen since they were sought for in some counties in US."

And exactly how would a Java/Oracle/.NET/AOL/{insert company here} card have prevented this?

"Oracle planed to donate database software for the purpose of creating the global ID."

Aw, now, shucks, Larry. We all know that you're such the humanitarian, but to know that your donation would not help you financially in any way, now that just warms my heart...

Re:Oracle's plan

[aralin]

The ID card would be state issued. But the call was for a central database that would poll informations from all the zillions of federal and state databases. At least with regard to security risk persons. As the credit risk has its own credit databases that poll information from all the lenders of money all over country. The ID would merely serve as a key identifier for such database.

Pulling off 3 year old article that even does not say anything special is helping to your cause exactly HOW?

Re:Oracle's plan

[chris_martin]

If they did, 6 of these 19 terrorists would have been CAUGHT at entry and the attack would likely NEVER happen since they were sought for in some counties in US. How can someone get into the country without notice by INS when he is on 'Wanted' list on Florida?

How do you know this? Why do people assume that this ID card scheme would not be comprimised (read counterfit) ?

In any sort of ID there will be fakes out there.

And last, but not least, the plan for global ID proposed by Larry Ellison should have been on voluntary basis to make things for you convenient and avoid these long and thorough checks of identity that will definitely appear on different wanna-be-secure locations like airports.

1. If it's voluntary, it's useless

Will they run two airplanes for those of us who would opt-out? If not, you will still be waiting on the plane for us to check in, so your not waiting in line idea won't work. If they will run two planes, that's insane, airlines are strapped for cash now, I doubt they could double the planes with half the people.

2. Conveniency breeds loss of rights

The first thing that will happen in an opt-in for convenience world is that it will soon NOT BE opt-in, it will be maditory. The US Social Security number was designed for your retirement, now it's used for EVERYTHING. I can remember when you weren't supposed to give you number out to anyone. Now I have to print it on checks, give that number to banks, etc. They don't need that number, but it sure is convienent. Now, look how common ID theft is now, all you need is a persons address and SSN and you own them.

3. National ID cards will not stop people coming in from the outside (passports) and we will not always catch people with fake passports.

4. Global ID card would be impossible. Require them to enter the US? I doubt it. We already require passports.

Re:Oracle's plan

[aralin]

So you get credit cards without asking right? I came in the country legally on H1b visa, it took them 6 months to screen me, I had never any problems, never paid a bill late in my country and it took my freakin' six months to get my first credit card. I wish they would be tossing some my way too.

What I want to say, credit card companies do hella better job than your government at making sure you are not a risk for them. Once they consider you ok, they will throw all their offers on you, ofc, but not a day sooner. And try to go bancrupt, you won't have even chance to get cell phone for 7 years.

And I don't judge ideas of people by what they do. One would say that you are all into goverment not saying a word into what you do, but you'd like them to say a hella lot into what others do...

Re:Oracle's plan

[aralin]

Did you ever hear about fake credit card lately? Its so hard faking them nobody does. And why? Because its about freakin' money. But when it comes to lives, nobody cares. Why businesses have better secured their IDs than government? Maybe because government issues so damn lots of IDs. Having one, they should maybe put a little bit more effort into making it secure.No?

Re:Oracle's plan

[mpe]

Larry Ellison pointed out that all the information is already in some databases, but while businesses like VISA, AMEX and others poll their databases and link these data together, federal agencies do NOT. If they did, 6 of these 19 terrorists would have been CAUGHT at entry and the attack would likely NEVER happen since they were sought for in some counties in US.

Only if information from the 6 prevented the other 11 from carrying out the plan...

How can someone get into the country without notice by INS when he is on 'Wanted' list on Florida?

Remember that the western US/Canadian border is simply a line someone drew on a map. Rather than any "natural" boundry created by geography.

Re:Oracle's plan

[mpe]

he US Social Security number was designed for
your retirement, now it's used for EVERYTHING

Or rather it's abused, similiarly in the US (and other places) driving licences are also abused as identity documents. You even have the utterly daft situation of ID only "driving licences" which do not permit the holder to drive any class of motor vehicle.

Re:Oracle's plan

[edremy]

3. Libertarian theories do not say that a voluntary national id system would be a bad thing.

Unles those people who do not volunteer are marginalised by their choice (like, being unable to fly on domestic flights for example).

Airlines are private companies. Under Libertarian theory then can do anything they damn well please. Libertarians believe that the government should stay out of transactions between peaceable people or groups. Why should a company be forced to sell you something if they don't want to?

If you want to fly but don't want to agree to what the airlines demand, too bad. Buy your own plane. (It's a lot more fun!)

Eric

Re:Oracle's plan

[Snowfox]

Oracle does not plan to take away any of your liberties or profit on a national tragedy.
...
The other point I've heard was that (as I've heard) Oracle planed to donate database software for the purpose of creating the global ID.

Oh, sure - absolutely no profit in being the de-facto standard for applications interfacing to the national every-last-person database...

Re:Oracle's plan

[aralin]

You have no freakin' idea what are you talking about. Databases are not MS Office. Oracle is at the same level with all other application developers since all the API are completely open. They have to be, otherwise the database would not sell. *sigh* As if you wouldn't know that 90% of all database appliacations deployed are custom made by in-house development teams. Try to deny API for your database and you are dead in the business.

Re:Oracle's plan

[Snowfox]

You have no freakin' idea what are you talking about.

I'll counter that you're responding without thinking, or that you're incredibly naive if you think programming standards are the standards that govern business decisions. We're speaking Oracle as a standard in the traditional sense of the word.

Databases are not MS Office. Oracle is at the same level with all other application developers since all the API are completely open. They have to be, otherwise the database would not sell. *sigh* As if you wouldn't know that 90% of all database appliacations deployed are custom made by in-house development teams. Try to deny API for your database and you are dead in the business.

The company that implements the database "for free" will be the company people go to for related products. No matter how open and free the standard is, with source out there and all the trappings that go with it, Oracle would be "the authority."

BTW - on your other points - even if the implementation standards weren't completely open, it's not a choice of whether the database "sells" if it's already in use by the US government and everyone else is trying to use it. And even if 90% of database apps are developed in-house, the relevant tools aren't, and even putting that aside, being first in line for 10% of the database apps would be a pretty sweet spot to be in.

Oracle and Sun are trying to cash in on the spilled blood just like every other big business. There's nobody making an offer out of the kindness of their hearts in this case.

Re:Oracle's plan

[aralin]

Well, I work for Oracle. And I seriously wish that what you suggest here would be true, although from what I know, it is not. Our 'Tools' division is glad to be able to compete in the market and we now *start* to get customers turning away from companies like Siebel, Peoplesoft, SAP, IBM and others to come for applications to us. Apparently not because we are the same who is running their database, but because quality of these applications got on competitive level.

I have to assure you, that if even half of the companies that run our database would come for the applications as well, our revenue would certainly at least double. Which might result in some fat bonuses *lick* So yes, I would like to live in world how you describe it :)

And to your last claim, yes Oracle might profit on the initiative, the company is by law obliged to make actions which profit their shareholders, but I think there is another thing behind it. I have seen how L. Ellison talks about the idea and I can almost smell the fear of his family and possession behind it. Hi is outraged, scared and he knows that he could make a difference. So he tries, what he can from his position.

IDs at airline checkin not for security

[Crispy Critters]

As Bruce Schneier mentioned in a special Cryptogram, IDs at airline check-ins don't do anything for security, partly because getting fake IDs is so easy. What it does accomplish is to keep semi-honest people from selling their airline tickets to each other.

There are two separate issues here. A national ID is not necessarily so bad. However, assigning a uniques identification number to each American is what threatens privacy. Having a unique ID number which is accessible to anyone permits cross-correlating databases and other methods of mining data and constructing profiles of people. Also, if there was a bar code or similar machine-readable encoding of the number on the ID card, then soon anyone (airline, dentist, grocery store, border guard, building security) would start swiping the card and recording our movements and activities in a way that would be very easy to combine in giant databases.

I am not saying this would happen, or is even likely, but it would be possible and that is scary enough.

Re:IDs at airline checkin not for security

[Xerithane]

You mean your social security number? Already there, most people already have it. Shit, you can be tracked on anything you do... go take a look at 1800 People Search, it provides records 10 years back.

Privacy is an illusion, the only thing that can help you out is that you are a no one and no one gives a rats ass about you. (Speaking generally, not to you as a person)

Re:IDs at airline checkin not for security

[erroneus]

I am not saying this would happen, or is even likely, but it would be possible and that is scary enough.

You don't have to cast any doubt that abuse of a national ID would happen. It would and it will. UINs are wonderful for databases. People have a very short sight when it comes to convenience vs. privacy concerns. The SSN is supposed to be used for one thing--Social Security accounting. It's not for credit. It's not for applying for a bank account. It's not for getting a library card or a driver's license. But every government and private institution abuses it. We have more than enough indication that it would be irresistable for people to abuse a national ID.

Re:IDs at airline checkin not for security

[nyquist_theorem]

IDs at airline check-ins don't do anything for security, partly because getting fake IDs is so easy.

No form of IDing people is effective if IDs are easily faked. Were airline check-in IDs done "properly", ie an effective form of ID was presented that was:

#1 - Nearly impossible to fake
#2 - Confirmed via network connection (like a credit card)

...then much more could be done - an "all-points-bulletin" on an individual would come much closer to preventing his flight (both literally and figuratively) than any such system available now, and would do so nearly instantaneously. Much like nuclear weapons or Dan Quayle's mouth, it would have to be tightly controlled by the government so as not be misused, but the principle is sound.

Also, if there was a bar code or similar machine-readable encoding of the number on the ID card, then soon anyone (airline, dentist, grocery store, border guard, building security) would start swiping the card and recording our movements and activities in a way that would be very easy to combine in giant databases.

At least the way I understand it, presentation of this card to non-government types would be optional - I can't see them wrestling your card from you in the grocery over your right to buy a rutabaga. In Canada, for example, from what I recall it is illegal for any non-government person to demand your SIN - they can ask, but they can not prevent you from anything should you not provide it (and provide sufficient alternate identification). Obviously legislation like this would prevent the abuses you're talking about. Heck our passports are all individually numbered, but my dentist rarely asks to see it. Compared to encryption backdoors and export restrictions, Tempest monitoring, nuclear weapons, and all the other no-fun-for-common-folk stuff the US gov't has at its disposal, universal ID cards don't seem all that scary to me.

m@

Re:IDs at airline checkin not for security

[IGnatius T Foobar]

I've got news for ya, folks: they're already doing this. There is an entire database marketing industry that does nothing but correlate data from different sources, build profiles on individual consumers, and then figure out your purchasing habits so they can predict your next move and supply you with the appropriate advertising.

Did you know that when you subscribe to a magazine, the stupid little cards that they stick in there are actually targeted specifically to you? It's true -- you and your neighbor could subscribe to the same magazine, but you'll get stuffed with different cards. The process is called selective binding and it's now a common practice in the database marketing universe.

Don't think for a minute that Big Brother isn't already tying in to this wealth of information. The addition of a unique ID number for each individual would merely be a formality at this point.

Re:IDs at airline checkin not for security

[Xerithane]

First off, this is getting blown out of proportion. A national ID card would be no different than a drivers license. The DL databases are getting linked together, and also moving towards a standard format of data. Look at your license, you should see a magnetic strip -- oops, they already are tracking you.

To think they are really going to collect statistical data on ~280 million (Guessing how many are old enough...) people and use it as a "tracking number" is absurd.

The only thing I can think would feasibly be tracked by this is a felony/sex-offender/wanted database that would do a quick query against - and I think that's a great idea, any thing you have been convicted of that requires you to state it (ie, sex offender) should be easily accessible electronically. And again, if you aren't doing anything illegal, you have nothing to worry about... They aren't talking about anything new here. The only thing they are talking about is linking all the information together.

Re:IDs at airline checkin not for security

[Xerithane]

Why is this unacceptable? Provide one good reason as to why this is unacceptable and maybe I'll change my mind.

Maybe because I don't find it unacceptable that I carry around a card that identifies me as me so that other people can't impersonate me I'm not understanding your argument...

Re:IDs at airline checkin not for security

[Xerithane]

You are just being irrational. The odds of someone claiming they are me for whatever reason, or being in a situation that requires a fail-safe identification card will happen much more frequently than the government abusing it's power.

Besides, I'd really like to see you give me one good reason as to how the government could abuse it's power with an identification database that tracks felony convictions, warrants, and other such information. Until then, I'm holding that argument as completely irrational and paranoid.

Re:IDs at airline checkin not for security

[Xerithane]

The sky is great on my planet, it's a wonderful crystal blue color and a deep black at night. We have one sun and one moon.

You may want to go see a doctor about your paranoia, because it's most certainly not healthy and I hope you don't spawn your belief that everyone is watching you and going to screw you over just because your political affiliations to your children.

Seriously, relax and understand that a national ID card is not going to cause some cataclysmic change in governmental power over citizen information. We already have it, all that is going to change is the efficiency in which queries can be run against. I'd like to know if the guy next to me on a flight isn't a mass murderer on the run... But, suit yourself - great thing about America is we can all have opinions.

Big push for services....

[reaper20]

Ok,

So now everyone thinks that services is the next big thing that will save the IT world and all the tech companies, so everyone is lining up for a universal ID system, which will somehow be tied to .NET/Java2EE or whatever like this:

<conjecture and humor>

The Microsoft Network, the only online service that ties directly into your NationalID, so you can do your taxes, use government services, and chat all with one service! Use your NationalID at amazon, cdnow, and others. Remember, the IRS deadline for NationalID is next month, don't get stuck using 'non-standard' protocols like Quicken, or paper.

Oracle - Oracle saved 34 billion running its ID on its own ID system, how much will the country save?

Sun - We're the ID behind NationalID.

</conjecture and humor>

By selling a National ID Card system that is smart, these large companies can leverage that to tie in more 'services' to 'integrate' this to whatever they are selling. In other words, more spam for everybody ....

As much as we hate to admit it, the government sets a standard, not really on purpose, but because they pick something and stick to it (MS Office for example). Now, take that standard and use it to get a leg up in industry ... the goverment uses it, you might as well use our system, because they do too ...

Re:Big push for services....

[reaper20]

Replying to myself ...

It gets pretty serious when something like this gets tied to, for example, your credit report.

Imagine this at the grocery store:
"I'm sorry Mr. Soandso, your NationalID has been placed on hold, seems like your rent is overdue, I'm sorry, we cannot accept this payment until your ID is cleared, I'm sorry."

"But I paid that, It's a mistake, WTF?"

Lady smiles, thinks 'loser':
"I'm sorry, you need to call Oracle central systems to clear this"

phonecall - "Welcome to Oracle Services, you are caller number 1234223, please hold, Mr. Soandso, GPS Location - Detroit, MI. Debt found on account, terminating phone with AT&T ID, disabling electronic key in FordID-capable car."

"F*CK!"

/me gets off the computer and resumes reading '1984'.

Re:Big push for services....

[OmegaDan]

Sun - We're the ID behind NationalID.

You were close, but not quite there --

Sun - We're the IP behind the National ID.

No comment on Microsoft in the article?

[leucadiadude]

Interesting that fully half the referenced article was about Sun and Microsoft fighting over who get's to be the big bad ID authenticator of the digital age.

No has yet mentioned Microsoft, not even to rant at them. Amazing.

What I want is...

[CleverNickName]

What I want is a national ID card powered by Microsoft.

If I get stopped by the cops, I just show it to them, and they are so filled with FUD that they let me off, scott-free.

I think a better question is...

[Randy Rathbun]

why?

What is a national ID card good for? What is it going to prevent? Will it prevent a guy from walking into a bank and holding it up? No. Would it prevent what happened one month ago? Definitely not, based on all the safeguards the perps passed right on through.

Guess I should just say it now - Ellison and McNealy are nothing more than opportunists who are taking advantage of a bad situation in order to pump up their stock prices.

Re:I think a better question is...

[alcmena]

It is illegal to use Social Security as a national ID. That is why Ohio (and possibly other states as well) gives you the option to have it removed from your drivers license.

Originally, when Social Security ID's were being created, Congress had to make a law against using it as a national ID system. Otherwise it would have never passed at the time. Not that anyone listens to that part of the law anymore though.

Re:I think a better question is...

[ncc74656]

Originally, when Social Security ID's were being created, Congress had to make a law against using it as a national ID system.

If your card is old enough (mine isn't), it even has a notation on it that it isn't to be used for identification purposes. Your parents' cards would almost certainly be marked that way. Some time in the 70s or 80s, they quit putting that on there...probably to disabuse people of the notion that it would never be used as an ID.

The ultimate ID system:

[mikeage]

Slash! Seriously... think about it. You can always hide yourself, but it makes fun of you. You get promoted for group-think, and struck down for originality. Almost everyone has a connection to Natalie Portman (usually in the form of hot grits-- great for down south... both the South, and the other meaning ), and finally-- everyone will be able to spot and avoid JonKatz just with one checkbox! W00t@ge!

Gataca

[mestreBimba]

Forget about Id cards, I want Gataca style instant DNA id. A quick pinprick, a little analysis, and a check against a database.

The day this is implemented is the day I become a hermit in the Middle Fork Wilderness area.

McNealy's Java Card

[NJVil]

``Absolute anonymity breeds absolute irresponsibility,'' he said. ``We need a thumbprint Java card in the hand of everybody in the country.''

Somehow giving up one's privacy will "breed" responsibility? Funny, I don't remember learning to be responsible by having everyone know all the details of my personal life. Yet here's this character lecturing Americans that we need to give up any semblance of privacy in order to be responsible citizens. Feh.

Besides, the last time I checked, many of the most evil acts in history were perpetrated by people who were quite well known to everyone else. I'm not sure that I see the positive correlation between being anonymous and being irresponsible and whether *America* will truly benefit from this scheme.

Furthermore, when he says "We", does he mean the citizens of the US? Why do I suspect he is talking about Sun, its CEO, and its investors and not the citizens of the US?

Finally, I wonder if this petty dictator-wannabe's "Java card" will let everyone he interacts with to know just how much of a threat he is to our basic human liberties... I suspect not...

Loosers weepers

[Deanasc]

OK so if the law is passed that EVERYONE must carry a nationa ID card or else. What do you do about the 8 year old who looses his card when he leaves his mittens on the bus? Or do you execute the Alzheimers patient who wanders out of the house without pants to carry a wallet around.

Only barcodes tatooed on the back of the neck will solve these problems.

Re:Forged ID and Illegal Immigrants

[jmv]

Just because the U.S. isn't being hypocritical dealing with the Taliban...

Then could you explain to me why the US never really cared too much about them (unlike Iraq, which they bomb everytime the persident has an affair) until sept. 11? They don't care about the Taliban and the people in Afghanistan, they just want bin Laden and that's all.

Powered by Apache

[BroadbandBradley]

so I could host my homepage on the card.
Why should they get to decide what goes on MY id card?....I could see it now, at the checkout line sliding my card through the reader,
and the checkout clerk says
"hey did you do those animations yourself? that's really cool!"

Credit Card? National ID card? Taco Bell?

[BrookHarty]

My local Taco Bell doesnt take credit cards.

National ID Card? They dont take checks either.

Aha, We can starve the terrorists!

Sun and the "me-too" bandwagon

[corky6921]

What is going on with Sun lately?

It really seems that Sun has resorted to "Ah, yes, that sounds like a good idea, but it can't work under {Microsoft|Oracle}".

Witness the Liberty Alliance. Basically, what Sun was saying was "well, a global authentication mechanism really is needed. We just can't have Microsoft doing it, because Microsoft is the evil empire."

What about Java? Originally promised as the end-all, be-all of programming languages, it has since dwindled into a niche of server-side programming. JSP only came about because ASP did. Sun had XML for years (in fact, Sun employees did invent XML) before Microsoft finally ponied up a strategy for using it with .NET.

Jxta? What is Jxta? "Peer-to-peer protocols"? Jxta came about because of Napster, but I don't see any applications using it yet...

Now, Oracle has requested national IDs, and Sun again jumps on the bandwagon, this time with McNealy claiming that he wanted to use them for national IDs all along. It's true, Java smart cards have been in the works for a while, but I don't think McNealy originally created them for a national ID system.

The future of Sun really worries me. Back in 1996, when anti-Microsoft sentiment was just starting to take off, Sun really was the leader. A lot of people thought that Sun might be their only chance for keeping everything from becoming a Microsoft product. But so far, they have failed to produce anything that lives up to their numerous claims. Java has been moderately successful, but not in the realm in which Sun originally intended (client-side applications.)

I really wish Scott McNealy would stop making these privacy-bashing claims and go back to making the great servers that made Sun famous. Why has Sun taken so many tangents lately? It really seems like Sun's core server business has suffered because McNealy's wish is for Sun to be an overpowering empire, not just an awesome server company. I really wish Sun the best, but as their prospects for profitability dim and they announce layoffs, I think now is the time for Sun to become refocused -- and McNealy needs to emphasize that, instead of just spouting off about smart cards and how Java is going to rule the world.

My two cents...

Re:Sun and the "me-too" bandwagon

[egomaniac]

"[Java] has since dwindled into a niche of server-side programming"

Since when is the #1 most used language a 'niche'? Java provides an awful lot of the power behind the Internet.

"JSP only came about because ASP did"

Okay, I'll give you that one. JSP sucks. Servlets, however, kick ass over all of the alternatives.

"Sun had XML for years (in fact, Sun employees did invent XML) before Microsoft finally ponied up a strategy for using it with .NET"

You've got to be kidding me. I was using XML in Java before Microsoft even announced .Net. The fact that Microsoft has turned XML into a dog-and-pony show does not imply that Sun didn't know what they were doing.

"Jxta came about because of Napster, but I don't see any applications using it yet.."

Oh, and there are presumably a ton using .Net? I'm familiar with several teams taking advantage of JXTA, by the way. It's a new product, most of its uses haven't hit the market yet (and most are in server-side stuff that will never be seen by end users, so it's tough to point to anyway).

"t's true, Java smart cards have been in the works for a while, but I don't think McNealy originally created them for a national ID system."

"In the works?" This is not vaporware. Java smart cards are a real product, available today. For a while now, actually. Sun didn't claim they invented them for their ID system, nor anything resembling that. You just made that up right now.

"But so far, they have failed to produce anything that lives up to their numerous claims"

What claims have they failed to live up to? Cross-platform functionality? I regularly move code between Windows, Solaris, and Linux without recompiling. Performance? I've written Java programs which outperform their C++ predecessors. Please elaborate me on which specific promises they have failed to fulfill.

I'm not saying Java is the best thing ever. There are some things about it which piss me off, and if I were designing it today I'd make a few changes. But I'd quit programming and become a hermit if I had to go back to C++ -- I just won't do it. Java is much better than what came before, and I will be using it for a long time to come.

Re:You would treat only them as terrorists

[Stiletto]

If you are willing to go through a hefty background check and whatnot to ensure you are not associated with foriegn terrorist agencies than you can go and get the National ID CARD. You are no longer searched as heavily or treated as a terrorist. People who oppose this National ID card will be searched and questioned.

Yep, guilty until proven innocent. That's the New American Way.

I oppose giving our corporate government more ways of tracking my medical records, spending habits, and private life. I guess that makes me a potential terrorist.

People are already barcoded.

[PeterM from Berkeley]

Just put your thumbprint on something. Presto,
your very own barcode. Cannot be forged easily.
Unique to every individual.

PeterM

Re:People are already barcoded.

[Deanasc]

Thumb prints don't work for everyone. People with skin problems, thalidomide babies with flipper arms, stupid shop teachers... The list is endless. You have to mark a part of the body that every living human has.

Besides there's some credible evidance being presented in court these days showing fingerprints aren't the panacea we've been tricked to believe.

greed is more powerful than intellect

[Naikrovek]

"Is there any company that doesn't want to exploit a tragedy for financial gain?"

hahah. hahahahahahha. HAHAHHAHHAH! AHHHAAHHAHHHAHHAHAHHAHAHAH!

no. there is no company large enough to suggest something like that that also gives a shit about humanity or safety or privacy, or anything except their christmas bonuses.

excess money makes *most* people heartless, evil, greedy and opportunistic. the current economic situation isn't helping things either - they only want more money to come in faster right now, because they see no reasonable income in the future.

they are owned by money, not the other way around. the things you own, end up owning you. example: ever seen someone who owns a ferarri not get murderously angry & violent when they see that someone has scratched their car? its not because something like that really matters, its because their self worth is enveloped entirely in their belongings.

so no, there is no large company that will not take every available opportunity to monopolize a situation that can benefit them - no matter how many people died to create that situation.

Re:Typical /. over-reaction

[poemofatic]

But, what if this is not a solution? Or if the drawbacks outweigh the benefits? Are you saying that we shouldn't debate the proposal on its own merits?

The human factor

[Bullschmidt]

A lot of what I read here doesn't take into account the human factor. No matter how good of a card or system you get, people can and will always screw it up. Thats what has already happened. People don't examine ID's closely enough. People don't watch the x-ray machines closely enough. Airport personel lose their badges, etc, etc, etc.

Even if we can have a perfect, unforgeable, unique card biometrically linked for any and every security purpose, it still doesn't rule out the fact that those who have legit access can be turned or used.

Just my 2 cents.

Here's why ID cards won't work

[dgroskind]

There are millions of people whose lives are so disorganized that they won't get the ID cards or they'll lose them when they get them or they'll fail to get them renewed.

For instance, in 1993-97, 3.7 percent of drivers were unlicensed, 7.4 percent were driving on an invalid (e.g., suspended, revoked, etc.) license, and 2.7 percent were of unknown license status.

The result is that if the police have to investigate everyone they stop without a valid ID card, they will be spending thousands of useless man hours verifying the identities of non-terrorists. Possibly they will be investigating the same hopeless people over and over again.

At best, a national ID system will prove a short term impediment until the terrorists figure out a way to acquire the cards illegally.

In fact, one can imagine a large black market for ID cards that would be a further drain on the resources of the police.

Re:Here's why ID cards won't work

[jcr]

At best, a national ID system will prove a short term impediment until the terrorists figure out a way to acquire the cards illegally.
Not EVEN.
If the perps know that they have to use suicide bombers with clean records, then they'll use suicide bombers with clean records. Not everyone who's willing to blow himself up has done time.
-jcr

There *might* be a way

[poemofatic]

..to make this work.

I think the main objection here is loss of privacy. So let's find some other ways to protect our privacy:

From the bottom, let's declare that personal info is our property. Let's use rights management software to tag _all_ data about ourselves, so that we can follow it, so we know exactly who has it and for how long. Some of that data we ought to be able to revoke, or "license it" in such a way that it expires. If I can't copy Word and sell it to my friend, why should a business be able to do the same with my credit card purchases, or questionnaire responses. Moreover, if a police agency is monitoring or collecting data about me, I should have a right ot know this. If the FBI needs a personal ID card, let them use it for purposes of identification, and not of spying. They still gotta do the gumshoe thing for that.

From the Top. If we are giving govt. more info about us, then we need more powers to hold govt. accountable. Let's require some stronger freedom of information policies. Declassify more docs. Publicize notes and meetings. Shine a light on black budgets. Full disclosure of lobbyists' notes/itinerary. I wanna be able to download the pda and schedule for any registered lobbyist (and they damn well better be registered, tagged, collared, .. ;)). All available on the web (say, two-weeks after the fact). You guys think of some other/better ideas. There are lots of ways to improve govt. accountability.

Needless to say, we don't want oracle or MS or Sun running the show in some proprietary monopoly. This should be a non profit, fully open process.

We can make a trade. National ID card in exchange for more open governance. More accountability. If this happened, I'd personally feel a higher level of privacy than I do now.

Re:There *might* be a way

[dgroskind]

I think the main objection here is loss of privacy.

The first question is whether ID cards will make it easier for the police to identify terrorists. If the answer is "yes" then one can discuss the trade-off of loss of privacy vs. increased safety.

However, if the answer is "no", then the privacy question becomes irrelevant because there is no justification for the card.

The terrorism we have just witnessed is conducted by people from outside the United States who could arrive with false identities. I can't see how a domestic ID system would address that tactic at all.

We can make a trade. National ID card in exchange for more open governance.

If you want more "open governance" and government accountability, you don't need to make any kind of trade. You are entitled to both as a citizen of a democracy. Except in some very narrow areas, the fight against terrorism doesn't require any additional government secrecy. The longstanding campaign for more open government can proceed without fear of impeding the search for terrorists.

Re:There *might* be a way

[poemofatic]

You're right, of course.

It's just that in light of recent events, I find myself fighting a sort of "holding action". More and more I have to justify my right even to criticize the govt.

In a healthy and functioning democracy all the the things I suggested would seem reasonable and doable *without* an ID card, but that's not where we are. So since there are powerful political (not as yet law enforcement) reasons for adopting a national ID card, I was trying to suggest some ways to limit its impact on our freedoms, and possibly "sneak in" some liberalization along the way.

Re:There *might* be a way

[dgroskind]

I was trying to suggest some ways to limit its impact on our freedoms

I think the best way to limit the impact on our freedoms is sundown clauses. Fighting domestic terrorism is uncharted territory and it will be hard to calibrate with precision how much of our traditional rights and privileges must be constrained.

At least a sundown clause will mean the constraints will all expire unless they can be justified by current facts and arguments.

I think a bigger danger than government abuse of additional powers is that a new generation will grow up without knowledge of the rights they once had. Over time, the love of individual freedom will atrophy and die from lack of use.

yeah..

[Axe]

Soviet Union used to have a national ID (internal passport). Regime's ability to track what all ciezen are doing was not even close to what is already going on in this country..

He was right when he said that we did not have any privacy left anymore. Get over it. Communism won. ;P

Re:yeah..

[snilloc]

I was disgusted to discover that neither my sister (17) nor her boyfriend (19) could offer any idea about what communism is. Wow. It's not like the idea shaped world history, or like any major countries claim to have Communist governments...

Damn.

Re:yeah..

[Seanasy]

They still do.

Re:Forged ID and Illegal Immigrants

[jmv]

How is that being hypocritical ?

What's hypocritical is the way they're trying to justify with this "poor afghan people" thing, almost like it's a humanitary thing. BTW, don't get me wrong, I'll be pretty happy when (if?) the Taliban are gone.

By the way, speaking of Give up Bin Ladin or give up power, what would bw the american opinion if some american guy does something bad in, say China, and the chinese government says to the US: "Give us this guy or we bomb you"?

well-meaning opportunism (and a proposal)

[mj6798]

I think many of the proposals and actions that have followed the 9/11 attacks use the attacks to push agendas that people have had for a long time. That's true as much for Ashcroft's limitations on civil liberties, even more defense funding, the secrecy and lack of transparency of the current administration, as well as these corporate proposals for "help". I don't think this is deliberate: I think the Bush administration, as well as these companies, really believe that what they are proposing is "for the best of the country", and they probably believe as well that they would be making the same proposals if they didn't have a stake in the matter.

But we known from many studies and long experience that you cannot be objective if you have a stake in the matter, no matter how much you try. That's why scientists conduct double-blind studies. And that's why we should scrutinize both administration policies and corporate proposals very, very carefully.

I do actually think a national ID system would actually be a good thing. But I think its purpose should only be to allow people to identify themselves reliably to other humans and to establish their residency status. As such, it should involve neither smartcards nor Java nor Oracle software. In fact, I don't think it should involve a national database at all. Rather, it should be a difficult-to-forge physical artifact with picture, name, thumbprint, and a 40 digit unique number with checksum (the length making it difficult to remember from casual observation, and to make it difficult to invent existing numbers). The number should be printed in an OCR font so that it can be read and verified, but the rest of the information on the card should be deliberately hard to capture by automatic means. Such a card could then be used to establish identity for purposes like immigration, security check-ins, financial transactions, etc. Yet it would resist the creation of a "big brother" database probably better than our current ad-hoc system based on social security numbers.

Such a system would be of no commercial value to McNealy or Ellison. Would they still support it?Well...

Re:well-meaning opportunism (and a proposal)

[mj6798]

The checksum algorithm is there to help avoid typos, not to ensure that the card isn't fake. Authenticity is ensured only through physical means (watermarks, holograms, etc.).

Re:well-meaning opportunism (and a proposal)

[mj6798]

I don't understand your proposal. If there is no database -- there is nothing but these cards -- how does that identify anybody? Even if the card was difficult to forge, it would still be possible.

Of course, it "would be possible", but it would be much more difficult than the current, ad-hoc system of identity documents. The current identity documents we have were generally never designed to be physically very secure, and that works to the detriment of us, the citizens.

So the number is in a national database, but the other information is not? The verification of the number shows that it was assigned, and the fact that it is printed on a card with my picture means that I am really who I say I am. Do I have that right?

No, there is no single global database for verification. The number would be machine readable only so that any particular organization (drivers licence bureau, airline, etc.) could keep their own database using a unique identifier and pull up their record on you. That is something they will do anyway--you might as well make it easy and reliable.

If the government is using this for all those things, how would it not be big brotherish? I guess if the database that is used to verify my number doesn't record who is querying (which security check-in or which financial institution) and when, then I can believe that. Do you think such a system would be made that way, though?

Government agencies do, and will continue to, keep databases for various purposes--they have to in order to function. The key difference to other national ID card proposals is that the ID card I'm proposing doesn't rely on a central database for its verification--it only relies on physical security.

As such, it's a conservative, incremental step, replacing a variety of ID cards with very poor physical security we are using now with something that is physically a bit more secure and standardized but otherwise doesn't add any new database capabilities. Standardization makes it much easier for people to spot fakes (would you really know a fake Nebraska driver's license if you saw one? if there was one standard national ID card, you'd be able to spot a fake) and it would replace a poor, memorable, easily guessable identifier, the social security number, with something that's hard to remember casually and hard to collide with accidentally. And I think that would be an improvement over what we have now.

Budweiser

[istartedi]

Oracle wants a national ID card powered by Oracle. Sun wants a national ID card powered by Java.

...and Bud wants a national ID card powered by beer. So what else is new?

Me, personally? I want a national ID card powered by my smiling face, with a $1 royalty going to me for each card.

I think y'all get the point. At any rate, one can only hope that if Bush ever holds up a card on TV, people will react the same as when Clinton held up a card on TV. Yes... here is how I intend to prevent it:

Dear Mr. Bush,

If you ever hold up a national ID card on TV, I will vote straight Democrat in the next election.

Sincerely,
Steven Marthouse

Sheesh...

[neema]

These terrible people, taking advantage of such tragedies...

In completely unrelated break through, I will be selling white t-shirts with "Check out this shirt, I'm a real American!" written on it with black magic marker. Only 29.95.

Orders to come in anytime now.

Re:Forged ID and Illegal Immigrants

[egomaniac]

"what would bw the american opinion if some american guy does something bad in, say China, and the chinese government says to the US: 'Give us this guy or we bomb you'?"

This wouldn't happen. China would request a peaceful extradition, and we would hand the guy over. Nobody threatened to bomb anybody until the response was "we're not handing this guy over, despite the mounds of evidence that proves he killed 6,000 people".

Handing somebody over for criminal proceedings is called extradition. There are treaties governing it. It happens all the time. Nobody freaks out about it (well, except the guy getting extradited).

The thing most lacking

[Platinum Dragon]

I think there is a concept that underlies all the concerns of privacy advocates, cypherpunks, civil rights advocates, and consumer protection advocates when presented with the concept of some kind of "national identification."

Trust.

Trust that your ID won't be used to track your purchases in order to determine your buying habits, so that info can be sold to someone else, to sell to someone else, to build a huge database about the buying habits of millions including yourself, to sell to the highest bidder.

Trust that you won't have every movement scrutinized by authorities and put in a file, tagged to your ID card, because you think the death penalty is moronic, or marijuana should be legalized, or that animals have similar rights as the animal species homo sapiens, so that law enforcement can threaten you into submission by showing how closely they can watch you, or take any innocuous action and turn it into reason for denial of bail - or even a conviction - by painting a "picture" of someone "suspicious".

Trust that the people involved in administering the system won't abuse the authority given to them.

Trust that the people who provide the resources won't try to exploit that avenue of control to gain some kind of political or economic advantage.

Trust that this system is being set up for the benefit of all, instead of the benefit of a few.

Trust that the system will be transparent and fair.

Trust in something is a powerful emotion, one that can drive a person to give another some kind of power over them, in the hope that power won't be abused. Trust in government, in business, in law enforcement, in the very people handed power and authority, has been spectacularly eroded over the past century, thanks to uncountable incidents of abuse of power and control.

Trust will have to be rebuilt in a lot of people before a national ID system can be effectively put into place.

Yes

[Ars-Fartsica]

If for no other reason than for driving home to (otherwise naively unsuspecting) people that they have no privacy and are being constantly observed. It is the governments duty to at least allow cicitzens the dignity of knowing they are being watched, data mined, profiled, and statistically reduced on a daily basis.

Barcode tattoos is a way better way to go

[0xA]

No wait, hear me out. I want a national barcode ID system. Simple enough to do, just like the one one Dark Angel.

He's the catch, I want it tattooed right in the crack of my ass. I belive that this would be great. Think about it:

Authority Abusing Cop: "I need to see your ID tatoo son"

Me: Gulps down last spoon of Super Ass Ripper Chilli, "Alright, but you're going to have to get nice and close, there's not much light in here officer"

Best idea I've had all week.

Any plane?

[szcx]

I'm tired of the outrage. If you get on a plane, I want to know who you are.

He's not talking about personal security here, he has his own private jet. He just wants to know where you are at all times for when he and Ellison's stormtroopers seize power.

It's like a Bond film or something. All he needs is a white cat and a monacle.

Other national IDs in the US...

[pondlife]

One thing nor mentioned so far is that even if Dubya were to succeed in specifying, developing and implementing a new US ID card (ie. succeed in managing a major IT project without cost overrun or failure to provide required functionality...), what happens to the numerous foreigners in the USA?

I'm sure that the rest of the world would probably fail to come up to the US 'standards' - would an Afghan passport be accepted as readily as a US ID card? Or a Britsh/French/Japanese passport, for that matter? (Or insert your chosen US-friendly/US-client state in that sentence).

So even if the US cards were miraculuously foolproof and unforgeable, the baddies would just start getting fake IDs from ither countries, which the US couldn't refuse without significant political and legal problems.

For example, I hold a British passport, a Swiss driving licence, and a Spanish student ID - which of these would be accepted in the Brave New World as allowing me to fly from New York to Boston?

Bring it on!

[Tarkwyn]

I've got my religion. You don't need to see my identification.

Does This Really Provide Security?

[StaticEngine]

When I was a kid, my Dad used to joke around by saying "Vere are your Pap-ahs? Vee haf vays of making you tak!" I didn't understand it until I was older, and once I did, I laughed because I believed such a thing could never happen here.

The real question that the populace needs to ask is whether or not any system of National IDs would really provide a benefit for the People in the form of Enhanced Security, while simultaneously not eroding our Freedoms. Furthermore, what will be the implications of the information that such a system provides, and what reliability do we have for the accuracy and precision of that data?

If such cards hold information on criminal record, citizenship status, and so forth, will this information be used in a discriminatory fashion? Will convicted murderer be able to board an airliner? How about someone who plead guilty to petty theft decades ago? How about people with speeding tickets? Will cards hold information on ethnic background, and if so, how will this affect racial profiling?

Furthermore, how will the data be stored? Will it all be contained on a Smart Card (easily hackable), or will it be contained in a Central Database? Who will be in charge of this Database? If this central database is hacked, aren't all records for all citizens suddenly called into question? And if this database is undetectibly hacked, how will this provide any more security than a person carrying a forged driver's license? It is doubtful that this card on it's own will be enough to provide true security. Schneier talks of a dual data system, where a user provides a password or biometric data in addition to the ID card to provide authentication. Couldn't these also be stolen or faked, perhaps not at the personal level, but also by hacking the card or database?

What about the convienience factor? Many people have said that while Americans clamor for security, the aspect of life that they're least willing to give up is convieneince. Will transmitting a query across the network for every ID card access be so painfully slow that many people will forgo its use? Will people who forget or lose their card be locked out of their daily routines until the situation is resolved? And how will foreigners deal with the lack of a National ID card? Will they be issued a temporary one upon arrival in this nation? How easy will these be to forge, and how will this affect tourism, and their opinion of "America, The Haven of Freedom and Democracy"?

I for one wonder how many of these questions will be asked by people who will decide whether or not such a system should be implemented. This is not a trivial issue, and the proper analysis of such a system will take time, time that few want to waste in this era of fast solutions and anxious precautions.

ID card is not the real issue.

[mindstrm]

Let's face it folks; having a federally issued ID card, with your picture on it is NOT what bothers everyone. Do you think you government doesn't know you are a citizen? Do you have a passport? That's federally issued ID.

The REAL issue is where you have to present said ID card.
I don't have to present ID to ride the bus, to buy groceries, to drive on the highway (though I do have to have my driver's license). I don't have to present ID to cross from state to state. You don't technically have to show ID to board an airplane (but good luck doing so nowadays after the sept. 11 incidents) .FAA regulations clearly allow you to travel without ID.

The issue is someone using that federal ID to track where you go, when, and how, and what you do, what you buy, etc. Isn't it?

Re:ID card is not the real issue.

[BlueTurnip]

The REAL issue is where you have to present said ID card.

And an equally important issue which many people don't consider is the database that goes with the ID. If you took a poll and asked people if they would object to a law requiring all citizens to go the police station to be photographed and fingerprinted for a database, most would probably object.

But 7 out of 10 Americans support the idea of a mandatory ID card with photo and fingerprints, as long as they're not required to show it to too many people. But the point that many people miss is that the photo and fingerprint that go on the card ALSO go into a database. You can rip up the card the following day, but they still have your photo and fingerprints on file. Once your photo is on file, video cameras coupled with face recognition software could allow authorities to track your every move. Who needs to ask for a card, when the camera/database will ID you in a second?

What we need to be wary of are these side effects of these ID card schemes which I believe are the real reasons behind them.

Re:Forged ID and Illegal Immigrants

[jmv]

Then would the US have extradited the pilots involved in the "accident" between the american plane and the chinese fighter a while ago (well, if they hadn't land in china in the first place)?

Of course, it's not exactly the same case and we could spend a lot of time arguing about that. But the thing is: this is probably the first time war is declare to a country for *one* person.

Why have cards?

[wytcld]

After all we all know how to spot a real American. Check the clothes. Check the accent. Check the knowledge of baseball trivia.

What was the success of German spying efforts in WWII? Germans looked just like plenty of Americans; but few if any had mastery of baseball trivia. The Germans with American music trivia (particularly jazz) were generally in the German resistance. If you go far enough into our trivia, it conquers your mind and there's no need for us to worry about you.

The only function served by ID cards would be they would allow certain technical citizens to be granted certain privileges, when under present circumstances they will be prone to intense interrogation for not bearing the obvious signs of being, in a cultural sense, citizens. Why screw with the status quo on this one, when it favors most of us here?

Altho it would be useful, in considering a new relationship, to have full access not just to the prospective other's ID card, but also the EGO card and the SUPER-EGO card. If the SUPER-EGO resembles any of several nasty old Middle-Eastern deities, report this to local law enforcement.

Airports, Canada SIN, etc.

[mindstrm]

First.. in US airports, aside form any new legislation just up because of the Sept. 11 events, it is still legal to fly without presenting ID. The party line at check-in counters is a lie: they will happily tell you 'FAA regulations require us to ask for ID', but this is patently false. FAA regulations clearly state that it is permissible to fly without proper verifiable ID so long as they either a) make a thorough check of your baggage or b) ensure your baggage only goes onboard if you yourself are onboard. Remove it from the plane if you aren't onboard at takeoff. In fact, it may be illegal to refuse to let someone board a plane without ID. The reason the airlines don't tell you this? Because.. they want to enforce their STUPID non-transeferable tickets. Cancelled your plans? wanna give your expensive ticket to someone else? Too bad. That is evil.

As for the SIN. IT is illegal for anyone but the Government to REQUIRE you to present your SIN. The catch is.. you are not required to give it out to anyone but the government. You can always request an 'alternate' id number for credit checks and such.

Unversal ID cards aren't scary.. but I think the reason oracle & sun are involving themselves is because they are talking about a national ID 'system' as opposed to just cards. National ID cards are actually a good idea... I don't have a problem. I happily show my passport for ID all the time now anyway.

Re:Airports, Canada SIN, etc.

[Quikah]

I don't know if you can actually get on a plane without showing ID, but if you try it get there a few hours ahead of time. I just had a flight a week ago, my ID was checked 4 times. Once at the ticket counter, once at the line for the secrutiy, once at the security, and then finally at the gate before boarding the plane. I guess you wuld get pretty good at explaining how you don't need to show your ID by the third ID check. :)

Re:TCL

[Mad Marlin]

how about a card using TCL :)

If I remember correctly, the official way to pronounce Tcl was ``tickle'', so then everybody in the USA would have a tickle ID, a license to tickle! I like it, a new reason to bring your ID to bars!

Re:no!

[sjax]

Even if he wasn't charging for the service, what do you think the PR is worth being able to say "The official database of the safe America". It's a business decision.

National ID? Sign me up!

[J4]

Sign me up, but I want full medical/dental coverage and guaranteed employment in whatever field I'm competant in, with an option for self employment.

Exploitation of tradgedy for financial gain

[ainsoph]

The exploitation of the WTC attacks and the aftermath for gain both political and monetary is frankly pretty disgusting. The networks have done it since minute 1, The T-Shirts and baseball caps in stores since day 2 or 3, the covers of magazines, newspapers, the endless story after story of the hardship and painthis all caused.

It truly is terrible. I understand things need to be reported, people need to be made aware, yes its nice to sell things and donate the money to the cause of helping and cleaning up etc. But what of the things that are for profit?

Conspiracy alert?

While I don't think our Government staged the WTC attacks, I do think the biggest 'corporation' that has exploited the situation for both monetary/political gain has been the current administration. It is shameless truthfully: they have introduced radical legislation(covered here), got the wheels of war rolling (the whole gang in charge right now is a who's who of the military industrial complex), and the possibility of the oil connection in the region:

UNOCAL testimony on needing gov support in Afghan region to stabalise for energy plans

Energy Information Administration prospectus on Regions Energy

as well as the total destruction of critical analysis of the job the administration is doing (How can you condemn the pres in this hard time?) by the press , the supposed complete reversal of approval ratings Worldwide, despite the questionable actions, the complete "fsck you" attitude towards allies and UN, has led me to believe that they have taken this ball and run with it.

Off the soapbox and back to the topic. When a company like Sun or Oracle or anyone of that magnitude chimes in ready and willing to go forth with some plan that makes them look good and allows them to profit off of these insane times we are living in makes me really not think to much of the company, nor do I want to have anything to do with them.

My Idea for a 'National ID'

[Sentry21]

I had an idea recently regarding how to implement a national identification card. It wouldn't, in and of itself, prevent people getting on planes and killing everyone, but it would be a very good thing, and here's why.

The card is a smartcard card, with embedded microchip. On the chip is encoded your photograph, unencrypted, and your address, phone number, and a uniquely identifiable number (NOT your social security/social insurance), which are encrypted according to a key based on your fingerprint. Thus, anyone can get your picture from the card merely by putting it into an appropriate card reader, but access to your address, citizen ID number (CID), and so on requires your thumb(index finger,middle finger)print to be accessed.

This allows people to confirm that you are (or look like) who your card says you are without your fingerprint.

When you go into a Blockbuster to get a membership (blockbuster is a bad example because it's international, but bear with me), they take your information, assign you a membership number, and give you a plastic card with a barcode on it. With this national ID card, you would (at the final point in your membership sign-up) insert the card into a card reader that they have, scan in your thumbprint to authenticate, and they would then create your information in the database. The difference, though, is that they would not have to ask you for proof of address, and you would not have to dictate your address or phone number. Also, they would not have to assign you a member number, as your CID could be used (or merely stored and referenced) as your member number in the database.

Privacy whiners could note that Blockbuster does not, with this ID card, know anything more or less than they did before.

The key to this system is that you do not have a centralized database controlled by the government that stores your credit card information, video rental information, and air miles. You do not have all relevant information stored on the card so that anyone can pull it off the card, and the information, if your card is lost, is irretrievable, though it is easy to locate the owner in a crowd or a restaurant, since the picture is printed and stored on the card.

Every store needs their own database, as they do now, so the government can no easier 'track you' than they can now. The government's database would be easily integrated amongst itself (CSIS/RCMP/local police/Immigration Canada could share/cross-access databases), and make working together easier.

Thus, while not a safety measure in and of itself, this card would not stop anything, security officials at airports could integrate their check-in scanners with all of the above agencies (or their local counterparts, for Americans, Britons, etc), and any national red flags would be raised, and the person would be told that there was a problem with their card, and could they please wait a moment.

The card would be free to any citizen/landed immigrant, and a minimal charge ($5? $10? Cost of fabrication) would be asked of any non-citizen resident (students, foreign nationals, diplomats). Anyone not posessing a card would be ineligable for most services at most institutions.

(Worried about 'manditory ID'? Try getting a bank account without a driver's license, or a passport without a birth certificate, or even a Blockbuster card without at least an addressed letter)

The idea certainly isn't perfeclty thought out, but I think it's pretty well laid out. I wish Canada WOULD do something like this, because as a non-driving individual who gets little mail and doesn't posess a credit card, the only ID I have is a two-year old learner's license from a different province, and a Social Insurance Card that has only my name and a number on it.

--Dan

Re:My Idea for a 'National ID'

[yellowjacket03]

Privacy whiners could note that Blockbuster does not, with this ID card, know anything more or less than they did before.

Most likely they don't really know anything about you since most employees there are so lax. You are supposed to show TWO forms of picture ID to get a Blockbuster card, but that never happens. I cannot tell you how many times people came in, got a card, rented about $300 worth of video games and were never heard from again. Thank Christ I don't work there anymore.

Re:My Idea for a 'National ID'

[alienmole]

Privacy whiners could note that Blockbuster does not, with this ID card, know anything more or less than they did before.

Control freaks should note that they're not going to win many converts by denigrating the views of those who think differently than they do.

VAPORWARE!

[cgleba]

I don't know much on the specifics of this "Liberty Alliance Project" nor do I work for Sun,
however this seems to be another case of the infamous Sun vaporware that does everything for everyone.

If I remember correctly, this started off as a PCMCIA card that you slap into any running SunRay (dumb graphics terminal) and you're instantly logged in.

The idea was that you have all your apps run on a large E10k run by an ISP or "appication service provider" and you slap your PCMCIA card into the SunRay at your house and open StarOffice, per say. Then you leave StarOffice open, pull your card, the screen gets locked and then you go to work and slap your PCMCIA card into your SunRay there and voila! StarOffice and the document you were working on is now right in front of you. The reason for this, of course, is that you're app never stopped running -- it was on the E10k and the DISPLAY changed with the slip of your PCMCIA card.

Later, when MS introduced .NET, Sun decided to start marketing this as some form of web authentication. . . .

Now that Sep. 11th happened, it's a national ID.

Remember Jini? Sun said that it was going to change the world and connect everything from your toaster to your car to your computer? That was a huge VAT of vaporware that was simply a collection of protocols (Sun would have you believe that it was a HW/SW solution for everything).

Java was supposed to change everything, too. It was not vaporware, however because of browser incompatability most people resort to server-side Java (which defeats the purpose of cross-platform -- YOU KNOW THE PPLATFORM OF YOUR SERVER!) and does not even come close o solving all the problems that Sun claimed in practice.

The "vaporware" mentality of selling somthing very simple to everyone in the planet telling them that it's going to fix all thier problems has killed much of Sun's credability. It worked with Java, but people know better now and they should cut this crap before no one listens to thier marketing at all.

Would anyone really feel safer with this in place?

[bubblegoose]

The world is an unsafe place, that was true even before the attacks. If someone wants to kill someone people bad enough he's going to get me no matter what I do. Yes, we should take precautions but let's not get carried away here.

McNealy says ``I'm tired of the outrage. If you get on a plane, I want to know who you are. If you rent a crop duster, I want to know who you are,''

He's going for the knee jerk reaction here. Maybe he should also propose that the card have an American flag on them.

I wouldn't worry about air travel nowadays, if I had a reason to travel I wouldn't hesitate in the least. If I had the money I would take my family to Disney World now. The news footage I saw with no lines looks a lot better than the last time I was there.

The unthinkable was done, it shocked everyone, but now the element of surprise is gone. Terrorists aren't going to use a commercial plane anymore than the Japenese were going to come back to Pearl Harbor a month later.

I crop duster, why worry about that, a crackpot a few years ago only needed a rental truck. He could have just as easily stolen a truck one night and carried the attack out the next morning. There's no limit to the evil things some people are capable of if they are determined. I'm sure they'll come up with something just as evil and unexpected.

How about confidentiality of the card information? I'm sure you wouldn't have to physically present you card for every transaction you want to do. Are they going to tie all of my accounts into one card? Oh, that would be great, now if I call an order into one unscrupulous place, I'm locked out of all my accounts until the banks straighten it out.

I mean I'm all for all of these companies proposing these things, the more companies involved touting their own standard the longer it will take for someone to agree on a standard. As long as each individual company can buy enough poliiticians I mean.

foreign nationals ...

[ananke]

I think one major issue is missed: none of the damn terrorists were usa citizens. NONE. Who freaking cares about the national IDs? I'm not a usa citizen [although I live there], and I can present any ID that I wish.
So my question is, how will this matter to the overall security?

Re:Forged ID and Illegal Immigrants

[jmv]

any other nation that harbors terrorists

That one always makes me laugh. After all the terrorist groups the US helped (via CIA, ...), including Bin Laden's group, I guess it's time the US follows the next logical step. "US declares war to itself and bombs Washington after it refused to turn over to itself ex-CIA directors."

nice quote. i might have to use that.

[jon_c]

-Jon

We cannot not let petty issues like "freedom" stand in the way of protecting American ideals.

No? Wait until it' the right party...

[ackthpt]

See, your reaction is probably a little more strong than the average would be, but that's also likely to be because of who's suggesting. Follow the way Joe or Jolene Streetperson would respond to the following:

Government suggests National ID card, complete with DNA: "No, not a chance, keep away from me Big Brother!"

Ellison suggests National ID card, tracked in an national Oracle DB: "No! What are you, son kind of nut? This isn't Japan, buddy!"

McNealy suggests National ID card, powered by Java: "No! Now go away and stop trying to oppress me!"

However...

Microsoft suggests a National ID card, powered by WindowsID: "Gee, you really think that's a good idea, huh? Well, OK, if the world's richest man says it's really for our own good, I'll go along."

Then, from across the ocean, the people of France hear a loud, collective "Moo"

Hmm...

[LinuxHam]

First I can't get over the naivete of some people in here. I was trying to read through all the comments before posting, but I hit a trough of posts indicating that people want to select *precisely* what is listed on their report, *precisely* who can access the report, and other crap. I know that there are people here who have had to deal with identity theft, and that shit must be pretty sobering. But seriously people, you need to let go of your pipe dreams.

I recently picked up several prescriptions for recovering from surgery, and when I logged into Eckerd.com (a pharmacy), my "customized" home page featured a section on how much I could have saved if I had purchased my recent prescriptions from them. WHAT??!?! How the FRIG did you get that info, and what the hell are you doing displaying it on an unencrypted web page? Boy was I pissed about that. But WTF can I do? By the time I was pissed it was already done. And what am I going to do? Write my fucking CONGRESSMAN? Please. Arlen Fucking Specter is my asshole in Washington.

Anyway, my thought on how to make the ID card uncrackable would be to use a biometric as an encryption key against the owner's SSN. How many unique points can you get off an iris? I know thumbprints may occasionally be unavailable, but how many people have had *both* eyes removed? I'm guessing far fewer. Even with only 512 bits generated by an iris, that would never be stored anywhere.

I can see imaging units the size of today's supermarket debit/credit card scanners with a card slot. Insert your ID card, put your chin in the dimple, and the reader certifies your identity by decrypting a GPG'd copy of your SSN on the card using your iris as the key. I would think that would be pretty impossible to fake.

And, lest we forget...

[nycdewd]

In the darkest 1950s Cold War hysteria, when U.S. Sen. Joe McCarthy, R-Wi., was demanding that Congress toss aside the Constitution in order to hunt down the agents of his "red menace," a move was made by the Republican attorney general of the United States to expand the the use of information gathered through wiretapping in cases of espionage and sabotage. The proposal required Senate approval, which seemed assured as the shadow of McCarthyism hung heavy over the Capitol.

One senator, Wayne Morse, a Republican senator from the state of Oregon, stood alone in opposition to increased use of wiretaps on the phone lines of those suspected of subversion. Wiretapping phones was, Morse said, "a police state tactic." When the attorney general pressed his case before the Senate, Morse countered that, "I am shocked that an attorney general of the United States should believe Gestapo methods are needed in detecting Gestapo elements."

At every turn, and at considerable political cost, the Oregon senator fought the wiretapping plan. And his relentless defense of the right to privacy paid off. As Morse's biographer, Mason Drukman, recalls, "the bill ultimately died in the Judiciary Committee, one of the few measures of its kind to fail during the McCarthy era."

Morse's battle against the wiretapping scheme was recalled this week when, in an equally hysterical moment, the Senate was again asked to massively increase the ability of a Republican attorney general to wiretap phones -- and, now, Internet communications. Again, one senator stood up to the rush to rip of the Constitution.

U.S. Sen. Russ Feingold's courageous moves to challenge the most irresponsible and unnecessary components of Attorney General John Ashcroft's "anti-terrorism" agenda won him few friends in the Senate. The Wisconsin Democrat broke not just with Republicans but with the overwhelming majority of fellow Senate Democrats -- who were willing to sacrifice fundamental rights on the altar of Ashcroft's ambition.

Ashcroft and his Senate allies have been promoting a grab bag of police-state proposals that will do little to reduce the threat of terrorism, while doing much to increase the threat to civil liberties. In addition to seeking permission to conduct "roving wiretaps," the Ashcroft proposal was written to permit greatly expanded computer surveillance, and to permit government agents to secretly search private homes.

read more: http://www.thenation.com/thebeat/

Thanks, Scott!

[SecurityGuy]

I'm not a huge Linux fan. I try to objectively analyze whether Linux is the right solution, but truthfully I'd rather support the guys who, like Sun, put money into making Unix something the OSS guys liked enough to copy. But you know, after a while the knife in the back starts to hurt just a little too much. Scott McNealy, I don't know who the hell you think you are to undermine or attempt to undermine my privacy in this boneheaded, useless idea, but you have, if nothing else, simplified my decision process in whether or not I should deploy s Sun solution.

I won't use open source software because it's inherently better. It isn't. I won't use it because it's morally better. It isn't. But I also won't use commercial software and hardware produced by companies who think their role in the world is not to produce products and services which fulfill my needs, but to twist the politial world into an image which furthers their ends, or is tailored to their personal political agendas or beliefs.

Put simply, and excuse me for being a bit annoyed at the moment, if you want my business, build a good box, write quality software, and shut your mouth. I resent you using the soapbox of your position in the industry, which you have ONLY because I and people like me buy your products, to promote your political agenda.

A Poem

[Anonymous Coward]

The mark of the beast is a primary key
a poem by Drew

--///--

Ellison's motives come from below.
Look in his eyes. What do they show?
You may think that smile is for the stockholders,
but his home is Hades, where all evil smoulders.

His Chief DBA is the Dark Prince of Lies,
His unholy power is version 9i.
You thought that this baby ate up RAM before?
For version 9i, you'll buy six times more!

What violence will come of these columns and rows?
SQL*plus is the reaper of souls!
To commit is sure folly; to roll-back, calamity.
A cartesian join will doom all of humanity!

Constraints are forged of titanium chains,
and triggers are hardwired into your brain.
A single long int marks your identity --
The mark of the beast is a primary key.

The language of Satan? PL/SQL --
How else would he store his procedures in Hell?
You'll live in dread fear of the keyword DELETE.
The mark of the beast is a primary key.

Oracle 9i is a harbinger of Dark!
(But I cannot say more; nor publish benchmarks.)
But you value your soul, so my words you will heed:
The mark of the beast is a primary key.

--///--

Thank you.

Drivers Licence for non-drivers

[os2fan]

Over here, [Queensland, Aus] we have Age 18+ cards, which are issued by the licencing authorities. They function as licences for identification pruposes only (eg you can use an Age18 card to get drinks in a hotel. Mind you, you can't drive a car on an Age18+ card.

The scheme was set up to get around the teenage drinkers in hotels, even though they're 18, not having a licence.

Re:Drivers Licence for non-drivers

[os2fan]

Over here, they're accepted as a form of proof of identification. For example, it's the mode of identification required to get videos from a video store.

The thing about "driving a car" means that you have to "prove" who you are to these people, and therefore, evidence of that proof can be used elsewhere.

Only helps against domestic terrorism

[gweihir]

In Germany there is a need to carry ID at all times. Also if you move you have to register with the police within 2 weeks or be fined. And foreigners will need this registration to, e.g., get a bank account. If you take into account that wages will almost always be paid to a bank account and not as cash or check, this creates a pretty good facility to track people with no outside (cash!) funding.

These measures where introduced to find domestic terrorists that want to survive their acts of terror and it does help to a certain extend. It makes it also more difficult for people wanted by the police to hide. However it does only help against terrorists that stay in the county for a longer time and are active for some time.

It does not help to find one-time terrorists. It does not help to identify terrorists that have not done anything wrong yet. It does not help to find terrorists that have strong support from the population (a.k.a. freedom fighters). All it does is to significantly improve the chances of identifying a terrorist that moves around and strikes multiple times. That was enough reason to introduce it, and I believe it has actually helped somewhat to bring about the end of the Red Army Fraction. At least they had be far more careful and spend more effort on hiding and less on doing terrorism.

On the other hand it provides the gouvernment with a possibility to track its citizens. That is also a risk. And the worst kind of terrorism is that done by a totalitarian gouvernment against its citizens. So some balance has to be found.

One thing done in Germany in the past was to restrict access to and use of the collected data.

Exploiting for gain

[Derkec]

Suggesting this is flat out unfair. The kind folks at Oracle offered their software for free. I'm not sure what McNealy is calling for, but he doesn't strike me as the kind of guy to do such a thing. I could be wrong though.

Re:I heard....

[nhavar]

why fake one when it's easy enough to steal. If the quick check criteria is visual appearance you simply find someone who has the same general appearance as you and steal their ID. The majority of the time you won't even be asked for any proof of your existence and it will be business as usual. IE when was the last time someone checked your signature or ID when you used a credit card.

Brave New World

[Tazzy531]

It's just sad to know that the world that we have all become so accustomed to will now be changing and changing rapidly. Two months ago, people would be in an uproar if there were military guards at local airports or even train stations. But now, they are just common in a number of major cities. Two months ago, we would be in an uproar if a certain website stores one tiny bit of information about you, but now there are talks about carrying National ID cards.

Ladies and gents, I think it's time that we must get used to the fact that the freedom that we enjoyed months ago will now be slowly erroding.

On another note, back in the early 90s, NJ DMV (Motor Vehicles) was talking about creating a standardize drivers license with Social Security Card, Medical Insurance and others... This went through the state legistlature and was batted down because of they feared that they were intruding too much on the rights of the individuals.

My two cents is that..yes things must change. But we mustn't let the recent events cloud our visions of how the government is slowly infringing on the freedom of the people. Once they do this, the terrorist have won their war.

We have ID system in Russia for ages. Guess what?

[burbilog]

It did not stop terrorists from blowing two buildings into pieces.

You get passport here at 16 and you have to show it to patrols (at least in Moscow), you have to provide its number when you buy or sell car, rent a hotel room, get hired, etc, etc.

Tough Shit, Scot.

[jcr]

MacNealy says: "I'm tired of the outrage. If you get on a plane, I want to know who you are. If you rent a crop duster, I want to know who you are."

Well, tough shit, Scott. I don't give a flying fuck what you demand. I'm an American citizen, and I don't have to prove it to you, or Ellison, or any other nosy bastard who wants to make a billion dollars on tools for totalitarians. If you're afraid of me, carry a gun.

When the people of this country elect a self-serving marketing dink like you to some responsible position, then your demands carry some weight. Until then, you can go fuck yourself.

-jcr

Colorado sure is pretty

[Graymalkin]

If I was required to have a national ID that linked me to all of my personal records and history I would move to Brainainia. To think someone might think to impliment such a thing in the name of social security....well I guess it's time to pack and get my shots.

Re:What will prohibit..

[DGolden]

A camera on every street corner isn't so bad - provided everyone, not just the government/police, can use the camera network, and provided there's more public-access camera in the police and government buildings....

David Brin has outlined a model for such a society in his book "The Transparent Society", chapter one of which is available online here

boycott

[abde]

grrrrrr

Let's teach these pretty-boy billionaires a lesson. Boycott Oracle, use Postgres SQL. Boycott Sun, go for Linux boxen.

don't fuck with the geeks. especially if you are one of our own... it's an honor thing.

Microsoft

[BradleyUffner]

At least Microsoft hasn't tried to link thier Passport technology in with this national ID card

Questions from someone who has a national ID

[WalterSobchak]

Like most Europeans I have a (mandatory) national - in my case German - I.D., and up to this point I do not feel spied on or deprived of any kind of liberty.
In the U.S., the attitude towards a national I.D. seems to range from scepticism to demonization to outright paranoia.
This is an honest question, not trying to make anyone angry: What's the big deal? How does a national ID infringe on liberties?

Alex

P.S.: If you would like to tell me that Europe is already under the control of Martians/Illuminati/New World Order/Jews/Bilderbergs etc.: Please don't. In that case, I would like to stay ignorant and cheerful ;)

Re:Questions from someone who has a national ID

[kindbud]

This is an honest question, not trying to make anyone angry: What's the big deal? How does a national ID infringe on liberties?

This is not the point. What does a national ID card do to enhance our security? Nothing. All the hijackers presented valid ID before boarding their flights. I think not even Scott McNealy, brazen as he is, would try to assert that Sun can build a system impervious to subversion. I am certain that in Germany's system it is not impossible to obtain a fake ID.

I am not at all opposed to giving up some liberties for a short time, as long as doing so supports measures that are effective. I am not willing to give up any liberties at all, based on theory or conjecture, or these days, on the bald unsupported declaration that this is how it must be. I want to know that my sacrifice means something, that it is effective in support of our efforts. Otherwise, no deal, I won't go along with it.

Re:No? Wait until it' the right party...

[ackthpt]

What I was addressing was that the idea isn't ripe, yet. Expect at some time in the future that it will be. You'll know it's gone too far when it involves keeping a sample of your DNA and you can be held for not posessing your "papers."

I use M$ as an example, because the public's generally very willing acceptance of whatever rotten schemes they try to pull off with each release of Windows, probably because the public couldn't be bothered with technical details (which really aren't so technical, but are disguised as such to discourage anyone looking into them, clever, eh?) I think if there's one private company capable of pulling this off it would be them. Then every couple of years they'd announce an upgrade to your ID card and you'd have to fork over some money...

National ID == Internal Passport

[Seanasy]

An internal passport is the tool of a repressive regime. Stalin introduced them to Russian and they're still using them.

I never thought I'd ever agree with Texas Republicans about anything.

Driver's Licences are not ID cards

[DoctorNathaniel]

Not everyone drives. Not even in the motor-happy US.

If an ID card is to be had, why not base it on passports? Kill two birds with one stone.

problem with law enforcement is law enforcement

[budgenator]

My new license has a magnetic stripe on it and a bar-code, how much more do they need? Military ID's have the whole obverse side covered with 2-D 'puter code. If they are not using this now, why complicate it even more with a new system. Even if the contained data is encrypted, it my data and therefore unique, recordable and traceable.
What we don't need is an other level of beauacracy on top of what's already there, we need to actualy use what we have now enough to judge if a slight modification might be needed. Coordinate state drivers licenses should be enough. Maybe tighten up what documentation you need to get a license or state ID a little.

Oh by the way, if you have a murder warrant out for someone do you want the poor clerk at the Sec of States branch to freak out when she sees it; or say "It'll be mailed to this address in about ten days"? Mike Davis, spokesman for the Baltimore County Executive Office doesn't have a clue as to what deep inside the State's database when an arrest warrarnt flag trigger's a proceedure (actualy I don't either, but at least I'm not pretending to) Isn't it easier for a trained cop to stake out a mail box than to scrape a clerks brains off the wall?

Re:Forged ID and Illegal Immigrants

[jmv]

Of course I'm often wrong, but I don't say things like "I'll attack any other nation that harbors terrorists"... That's the difference. At least admit your mistakes and don't try to play "good guy vs. bad guy" with people basically doing the same stuff you do.

History: feature creep

[HiThere]

Do you really believe that the current list of features and uses would be permanent?
Even if they wrote limitations into the original law, they would pass a subsequent law that altered it. More likely, however, they would pass the implementation details to an appointed committee. And those would turn out to be malleable, and unchallengable.

This is a bad idea. All it does is facillitate the centralization of power. It's quite unlikely to provide much protection, and even if it did the cost would be horrendous.

This is a good reason to boycott Oracle. This is a good reason to replace existing Oracle installations with something else.

We don't need to support anyone who would recommend a plan like that.

Linking Driver License Data != National ID card

[rsimmons]

Linking driver's license data between states does not make for a national ID card. You are not required to get a driver's license, nor are you required to get a walker's ID. You are not required to get any sort of ID right now, and that's the way it should stay.

Re:This one's not so bad

[alecto]

. . . you and I, as US citizens, can choose to have an ID card or not to have one.

Until right about the time that to conduct practically any business (e.g. connect utilities to your home, pay with any instrument other than cash, rent bowling shoes), the entity with whom you are dealing requires this card or the number therefrom. A voluntary national ID would be voluntary like the income tax is voluntary.

The terrorists have that covered...

[alienmole]

Why do you think that some of them had subscriptions to the National Enquirer?

Quiz them a little and they'd start talking about how aliens took Rosie O'Donnell's baby, and you'd be hard-pressed to believe they weren't true Americans!!

You can.

[mindstrm]

Or at least, you could. I would suspect that, regardless of what's legal, you probably can't get on a plane without ID since the horrific acts of Sept. 11.

On the books, though, barring any very recent legislation, there is an FAA security directive with very clear and concise instructions on what to do if a passenger cannot or will not show valid ID, or if the ID they show cannot be validated. It says absolutely NOTHING about forbidding them from boarding the aircraft; it only deals with either making sure you thoroughly check all their baggage, or make sure their baggage is only on the plane if they are also on the plane (ie: take it off if they aren't on the plane at takeoff time)

It may actually be illegal to refuse to allow an American citizen to fly on a domestic flight without presenting ID.

Of course.. I'm sure tha'ts been changed recently.

There was such a thing!

[John Harrison]

Will,

Too bad for you! Microsoft seems to have dropped Windows for Smart Card in May 2000. One of the worst product names ever. Should have been VB for SC.

Now you are stuck with Java Card. Maybe they can fill up on coffee instead of FUD.