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Filing a Domain Name Dispute?
0backlash0 writes "I work for a not-for-profit that's involved in community media especially radio, television, and increasingly, the internet. We exist by and for the community, which is to say that we're not a large organization. Someone has registered a domain name that we used to own: kdhxfm88.org The name appears to be registered in "bad faith". Because of our size, we can't exactly afford to hire a team of lawyers to take care of this for us. What can we do and how do we do it?"
can you afford a better lawyer than the person who took your domain?
If you owned the domain name and then let your ownership drop, especially if it wasn't simply a failure to pay in time, you might have some real trouble getting it back. You need to be able to show that you meant to keep the domain name and that it was lost through some error.
Hurry up and call the RIAA quick! They have lawyers!
huh?
Why is the name registered in "bad faith?" While Id like to support you, you fail to give any details. Just because they registered that domain name does not mean it is in "bad faith." And, if you are such a small organization, what reason would someone have for registering the domain name? Its obviously not money.
Companies immediately say anyone who registered anything to do with their name registered it in "bad faith." I think you need to get everything uneder control before you go spouting off allegations.
the byproduct of years of oppression by the white man
Nothing like sufing slahsdot at work and having a URL that takes you to Euro Teen Sluts on the home page.. Thanks Guys!
Your best bet is arbitration, since the domain pretty obviously has nothing to do with their real business.
Nothing for 6-digit uids?
I for one would have liked a warning that the current owners had set up a porn site on there. The post naturally makes one wonder what is currently on the site, and some people are going to check it out who would prefer not to end up at a porn site.
What the hell kinda domain name is that? hard to remember, hard to spell correctly and no sex appeal.
In all the vastness of the universe and all the possible domain names to choose from, you picked that one? Maybe it's time to let it go and find a new domain name, any lawyer looking at that one is just going to laugh and ask why you'd want it back.
This whole story has got to be extremely clever spam from that porn-shop.. You let the domain lapse, its gone, and now the new owner has hordes of horny geeks checking it out. I'm no conspiracy theorist, but hey this is too much.
air and light and time and space
Back when I worked at Qualcomm, I was going to register eudora.org when it's renewal came and went unnoticed and unpaid. But I was told that I'd likely have to give it back at the drop of an even semi-legal hat (or not even: "Give it up or pack your office" would have worked just as well). I was going to use the domain for all the tech support junk, plugins, etc that didn't make it on eudora.com for whatever reason. It was going to be a community-type site, not for profit or anything. As far from "bad faith" as you can get. I was told that the intent of the site wouldn't matter and that they would almost certainly get it from me.
IANAL, but I think unless you can show that you had a claim or that your business will be hurt or whatever (think Coke registering pepsi.biz) then you probably won't be able to get it back. You could try the nice guy route, though. Ask them if they would sell it to you (throw in a 50% "finder's fee" for them) and offer to host whatever email accounts hey have for a year while they transition (careful of spamming, though). Probably won't work, but it never hurts to be nice anyway. Sadly, I think you're S.O.L.
-B
Ash and Hickory, straight-grained and true, make excellent bludgeons, dandy for the cudgeling of vegetarians.
You already own kdhx.org, and if that's not enough, neither kdhxradio88.org nor kdhxradio.org nor kdhx88.org is currently registered. You don't really need kdhxfm88.org, so if you forget it, the squatter will have wasted his money.
(I see that he's put a porn pointer at the address . Is that what you're really upset about? That's a different question than the one you asked. If you're a nonprofit and you can't afford a lawyer, find out what `pro bono' means.)
-Tom Duff
IIRC there's something in the ICANN guidelines about .org registers now necessarily being a non-profit, etc, etc. Perhaps someone could shed more light on this. Appeal, by all means.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Hah, well that porn site will be slashdotted in a few seconds, so this whole discussion is really a moot point :)
If your domain name was a trademark, copyrighted, or otherwise protected as intellectual property (shudders), then you could fight this. The fact is, though, that the domain got dropped. Everyone around here hates it, but there are companies that look for opporunities like this and "snatch" up domains as soon as they become available again.
On the plus side, if you don't do anything, the current owners will likely drop the domain in June 2003. If you can wait that long, you can be pretty sure no one's going to snatch it up again. If you absolutely want the domain back, there's a link on the current site (not the Euro Teen Sluts link) that will let you buy the domain back from them. Maybe it's worth just paying the price to get it back. I just don't know.
Probably the best thing you can do is change domain names completely. Don't ever speak of this older domain; and don't ever let any domain you want to keep expire. It would be pretty bad if mothers, kids, and grandparents went to the current site. Then again, maybe Euro Teens are what they're after...
Long, cute, or funny Sigs are just another form of over compensation, used by geeks, nerdz, etc.
But if they accidentally let it expire and some squatter snapped it up, then they should get it back.
I betcha this "0backlash0" character is actually the guy that currently has the domain registered and is running the porn site on it. He's invoking a slashdotting to get his banner ad hits up. :-)
The first thing you should do is send them a cease and desist letter. Send it registered, and let them know of your copyright. Let it be clear that they could be liable for up to $100,000 in damages. Here is an example: http://www.ejacking.com/letters.cfm It helps to find out if they have any other names hijacked. This works for most US citizen's who have an ounce of intelligence. If this doesn't work you need to start the process at icann. http://www.icann.org/udrp/udrp.htm
And don't mind the naysayers -- the UDRP doesn't say jack about whether or not you *used* to own the name, but it spells out in fairly clear terms the grounds upon which a challenge can be brought. In relevant part ("you" and "your" refer to the party you want to file against):
You don't necessarily need a lawyer, though it helps. Maybe you can get a local IP specialist to do it for your group pro bono. It will also be helpful for you to read some of the decisions already made, particularly any that seem to fit the facts of your situation.
Fried ice cream is a reality. - George Clinton
The vast majority of the responses I have seen are saying that it will be difficult if not impossible to get your domain back. This is simply not true. The party that has the more "legitimate" need will win. Legitimate means corporate or profitable. Surely the porn-peddling domain hoarder will not be able to win over someone who controls an organization with a name very similar to the domain. Not when you consider all of the past domain disputes and how they were decided.
How the fuck does this qualify as insightful? Let's look at it again, in instant replay:
"If you let the domain expire, and someone else registered it, I say you're going to have a hard time *taking it back* from its now-rightful owner."
No, he's not going to have a hard time taking it back, because according to ICANN's UDRP, these other people are acting in bad faith-- they are not the "rightful owner" that you mistakenly assumed. The rules are easy to search, and are here: http://www.icann.org/udrp/udrp-rules-24oct99.htm. But I'll quote it for you, since I'm sure no one will actually go read it.
Describe, in accordance with the Policy, the grounds on which the complaint is made including, in particular,
(1) the manner in which the domain name(s) is/are identical or confusingly similar to a trademark or service mark in which the Complainant has rights; and
(2) why the Respondent (domain-name holder) should be considered as having no rights or legitimate interests in respect of the domain name(s) that is/are the subject of the complaint; and
(3) why the domain name(s) should be considered as having been registered and being used in bad faith
So, seems pretty clear-cut here. Gee, you think the porn site's name isn't confusingly similar? You think they have legitimate interests in the name? You think they somehow weren't registering in bad faith?
As long as I'm apparently the only person who bothered to do some research on this first, including the original submitter, why don't I point out the procedures spelled out in detail here. Note that the single largest roadblock for a small non-profit is going to be the $1500 fee. Is the domain name worth $1500 to you? If so, read up, and you'll probably get it after a few forms and a money transfer. If not, use one of the gajillion other names available to you that's easier to remember than kzhszdfwelsdafjsdfzlldfm.org or whatever.
I realize bombing them with script requests would just be toasting their bandwidth, but they'd think they were getting more viewers. Best thing to do would be NOT to visit their page to discourage this sort of despicable squatting.
Agreed. Not to mention an organization which seems to have an implicit trademark on the letters "KDHX". At the very least the two names are confusingly similar, which I'm fairly certain is grounds for legal action. (Anyone know radio law? Are the call letters assigned to a station their property?)
Yeah, I agree. After reading the other posts, I think we've all been had. This is all a publicity stunt perpetrated by Mr. Armenian 0backlash0 to get more hits for his pr0n site.
Enjoy your American dollars while they last, Mr. Armenian 0backlash0!!!
"What is the sound of one belly slapping?"
Ok, if you check out this comment you'll find out that the domain is owned by a company called Buy This Domain. And that they're listed as being in Armenia, but have an Idaho area code.
Now, I was browsing around google, and I came up with this WIPO doc, dated August 14, 2001.
It deals with a case sort of like the one mentioned here, where the complaintant (sp?) let the domain lapse for some reason, and another company bought it up. Ok, so I can hear you saying "What does this have to do with this case?" Simple, the defendent was Buy This Domain (then using a different street name, but otherwise the address is the same), seems after being given the notice that the domain was going to be disputed, they offered to give it back to the original owner. That's right, they gave it back.
So, although IANAL, I'd say just begin the proper actions against them, and see if they cave again.
"I won't mod you down - I feel the need to call you a twit explicitly, rather than by implication."
If the original owner does not have a registered trademark or service mark, the UDRP won't help them. Simple as that.
The original question didn't mention the existence or lack thereof of a relevent trademark or service mark.
The UDRP doesn't say whether the trademark has to be registered or not. (This is a flaw in the UDRP, IMHO). It seems quite likely that the arbitrator or a court would interpret trademark to mean registered trademark.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
An interesting note: Any radio station at that frequency would have to be non-profit. The FCC has reserved frequencies below 92 MHZ (88-92) for non-profits only.
88.1 is the first FM broadcast band frequency (even though I have seen radios go as low as 87.5), and 107.9 is the last frequency (I haven't seen a radio that tunes above that).
Here in Las Vegas, we have radio stations at both extreme ends of the dial, and they both rule.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
This is one of the better advertising stunts
I've seen in a while.
Who posted this message, and why do they want to increase the traffic to this site?
A one banana problem.
So like many others, I just had to see this site. Yeah, porn. So what. The funny part is they have a link on the front page for selling the domain">. What a riot. The guys asks the /. community, we hammer their server then the clowns decide the domain has *even* more value. Hm... I wonder if it was the porn guys who emailed about this instead of the radio station. What an irony.
-- Solaris Central - http://w
I think it's worse than that. He's probably putting up something that is specifically meant to be offensive and annoying, to further encourage KDHX (and other domains he registers) to pay him off. I doubt KDHX really cares about the domain -- they let it expire after all. But it's not that they don't get to use the domain, it's that the domain is offensive and slanders their organization. I think they would easily win any case against this guy -- not just to get back the domain name, but a libel/slander suit against him. If they were actually to try to do this, they would want to contact other people who have also suffered this extortion, to pool resources.
The server appears to just be on DSL (a traceroute stalls on netblock-66.51.198.150.dslextreme.com, which is probably some firewall just in front of his computer). Which makes it seem even less like a real porn site.
DSLExtreme is a DSL provider in California, apparently. From them you may be able to track down who registered the domain, who is presumably also hosting it. From there you can send a cease-and-desist letter directly to the actual owner, using his actual name, and not falsified information in the WHOIS database. Or if you really felt like it you could sue him (and more power to you).
Also, you can probably get DSLExtreme (whoever they are -- they seem like a normal sort of provider) to shut down his access. I somehow doubt the site fits in their terms of service. If nothing else that'll stop him for a while, and it'll annoy him.
You say kdhxfm88.org being offered for sale, appears to be registered in "bad faith".
Not nice perhaps, they are obviously people without scruples - but there is plenty of those in Big Business.
If domain was used to complain about something you said, say regarding public affairs - would you consider that "bad faith" also?
Do you believe then, that free speech should not be allowed on the Internet?
You have kdhx.org, though their actions objectionable - they are not even stopping you from using your prefered name.
Let them waste their money.
By going to WIPO, you would help those trying to claim control of the Internet.
Paul Mockapetris, creator of Domain Name System, was asked, what do you wish you had invented?
His reply, "A directory system for the Internet that wouldn't be controlled by the politicians, lawyers and bureaucrats."
I have been in contact with various Government bodies (US/UK) and attorneys, about the solution to trademark problems on the Internet.
Most trademarks share same or similar words with many others.
The authorities have been giving some trademarks dominance over others - this is against unfair competition law.
They do this purposefully, as they know how to resolve the promblem.
The United States Department of Commerce and the United Nations World Intellectual Property Organization have both been hiding the solution.
Please visit WIPO.org.uk to see how to prevent 'consumer confusion', 'trademark conflict' and stop anybody 'passing off'.
.
the domain is the least of your worries in radio. as a fellow non-profit radio volunteer, i would have to put numerous legal threats that we get every year well above your domain woes.
keep your insurance up, keep your listeners happy, forget about the rest.
defamation insurance, a godsend to broadcasters everywhere.
I decided to let the name expire and then re-register it with a better registrar. I thought it wouldn't be a problem, because it was an obscure name.
Well, this same scumbag who took your old domain now has my old personal site, and is using it for porn ads. Apparently he is using a bot to repeatedly check for newly expiring domains, hoping to capitalize on the traffic from people's old bookmarks/search engine listings. I'm calling this "expire-squatting".
I filed a complaint with the FTC because of this and because he was using hostile "mousetrapping" javascript code to force open new windows whenever you close one. The FTC had previously shut down another one of these jerks, so I thought it might help.
Well, the FTC sent me back an email saying that they don't investigate individual complaints, but will act if they see a pattern of fraudulent behavior emerge.
So, go report this at the FTC website, and maybe you can push this over the threshold for FTC action.
Fried ice cream is a reality. - George Clinton
I've got to say I agree... They also have www.yohoo.com (same Euro Sluts image, description and links) and this lady at work (mid 50's) typed it accidentally (like yahoo, but worse)...She got all flustered...
So I'm thinking someone's trying to generate traffic...
"Piter, too, is dead."
I strongly recommend you use Google to find any sites on the net referring to that domain. Most likely, many of them are outdated URLS, and that is what this pr0n site is depending on for traffic. Get those links cut, and cut the traffic, and they'll be less likely to hang onto the address.
The same guy also reregistered the old Cambodia Airlines website (http://www.royal-air-cambodge.net/) and turned it into a porn site (no need to check it and give him more traffic). Whoever it is is consistently snapping up many expired domains. I wrote a bit about on my website here-> http://www.angkor.com/AngkorMain.shtml#latest
I wrote to them, never received a reply...when it came loose a few months later (I guess nobody wants aka-ed), I snapped it up again.
Things like that happen. In my case, the issue wasn't worth lawyers and $$$ just to find out what had happened, though a lot of mail users at mail.aka-ed.com (5 friends, who now only use me for spam!) were pissed off.
I survived the Dick Cheney Presidency 7 to 9 AM 7-21-07
(referring to a zero rated post, concerning "advertorials" in
I remember reading that, it didn't really register at the time. Your criticism is "on the money."
Journalistic ethics traditionally requires a "firewall" between editorial and advertisers, it's easy enough to see where some folks wouldn't get it.
Proof, once again, why engineering students need a liberal arts background.
I survived the Dick Cheney Presidency 7 to 9 AM 7-21-07
If it is, it's one of the more ingenious.
Sumbit a phony story to slashdot, making up some bogus story about a stolen domain name, set up a porn ad on the domain, and wait for the hits to roll in.
Pretty smart. I bet these folks made a bunch of money from the posting of this article.
I'm currently involved in a domain name dispute, as a guy who has been accused unfairly.
Contrary to what some of the folks here seem to be saying, you do have a legitimate beef. Especially since these guys are clearly intending to sell the domain - hence, the nondescript porn and the "click here to buy this domain" link.
Ask around any lawyer friends you know, and see if they know anyone who does trademark / domain name dispute cases. Then contact that person and ask if they know anyone who would be willing to take such a case on a pro bono basis, or for a "de minimus" fee.
As a final note: brush up on ICANN's Uniform Domain Name Resolution Policy. The policy makes it pretty clear that a domain can be considered registered in bad faith if:
The "click here to buy" link is clear evidence of (i), and the selection of name is a pretty clear evidence of (iv), unless these people are seriously going to make an argument that they just liked the name.
Oh - IANAL, but I know far more about the law now than I ever wanted to.
The big problem here, which a few other people touched on, is that it costs from $1250-$4000 to petition for a domain name dispute. (The different providers set their own fees.)
This is ridiculously expensive for not-for-profits and individuals, but chump change for big companies. What would make much more sense is a pay scale depending on who you are and who you're going up against...obviously, we don't wnat to make it trivial for every yahoo to claim they have a stake in coke.com for something like $19.95, but it's hardly logical that a broke organization should need to cough up $1250 to fight a porn operation.
This is near and dear to my heart right now, because there's an anti-muslim hate site at projectgutenberg.com (I'm the CEO of Project Gutenberg (the real site), and we really don't have the dough to go through the domain dispute process.
If this domain is so important to you, why didn't you notice that it had been deactivated 40 days before anyone was given a chance to "steal" it from you?
ok then your [sic] infringing on my copyright! Could you as [sic] me next time before STEALING my comments for your own?
Here's your answer. You're in a pickle. I am/was in a situation where known domain name pirate Jung Hochul (with prior arbitration judgements against him... he lost in the clubmed case) registered the domain waxman.com in a very sketchy way with help from someone inside NetSol. (Representing trademark holders waxmancandles.com I negotiated with former owners (company that bought Waxman camera and ceased using the Waxman name). During NetSol's "holding period" after a name expires the domain somehow slipped beyond their control. hmm.) Anyway, Mr. Hochul (no it's not his real name) wanted seven thousand USD cash for it last time we had contact.
So I went the route of a proper dispute, and came upon WIPO Arbitration.
The gist of it is, if you don't want to deal with Lawyers and lawsuits, and you want to get your domain back the "right way" you have to go into arbitration.
Here's the scheudle of fees from WIPO: http://arbiter.wipo.int/arbitration/fees/ If you want your domain back, you'll have to deal with the cost of arbitration. All the arbitration companies that NetSol works with want the same cash outlay. (It's fixed.)
I didn't have the cash to deal with it the right way, and I decided other ways, so that was that.
I hope you have better luck.
The website for the TCL Consortium http://www.tclconsortium.org/ (Scripting language) has been hit by the same people. I beleive that site was pretty well established until recently. They must make a habit of scooping up expired .org. More evidence in your favour. Clearly not in good faith.
Because they've done it thousands of other times. If you approach them with a lawsuit they'll probably hand it over to avoid the hassle. remember, they don't really want your domain that bad.
I manage the links for an educational portal, and with around 100,000 links in the database you're going to see a lot of domains get dropped. It seems like every week or so that I get an email from an angry parent or teacher who is outraged that we link to porn sites, when it turns out that we were linking to a perfectly legitimate site that went under and the domain was bought up by porn-mongers.
The strategy is this: buy up a thousand sites that went back on the market for around $12 each, redirect them to your porn sites so you are getting bookmark and search-engine traffic from the old site, and if one out of a hundred ex-webmasters who was willing to give up his domain but is not willing to see it turned into porn actually buys it back for 100x the price of registering then you are breaking even. If someone threatens a lawsuit, give it up and call it a loss.
I really hope more people start challenging crap like this.
If you mod me down the terrorists will have won
You or someone, with the blessing of the KDHX/Double Helix Board, should contact a law firm that does trademark work. When you call ask to speak to whoever coordinates the firm Pro Bono program. Most law firms of any size have a formal or informal pro bono program. A local St. Louis firm is more likely to be willing to help than a national firm.
Explain who you are, that you represent a penniless non-profit public interest organization and explain what has happened. If that firm can't help you, ask them to refer you to another firm that might be able to help.
Most states have guidelines for the amount of pro bono (from the Latin, pro bono publico, for the good of the public) work that a lawyer should do each year. Trademark attorneys are no exception to this. This work is done at no cost to help the indigent, charities, and public interest organizations.
If by some bad luck you should happen to contact a firm that isn't interested in helping you, keep looking, you'll find one before long.
This is not a legal opinion, no representation is expressed or implied.
A while ago I tried to register a (.CA) domain with Register.com. They showed it as available, so I paid my money (March 6/2001) and waited for confirmation in the next few days as instructed. Each day I checked the domain's availability on Register.com (by using their search facility); each day it was listed as "Available". As early as March 6, I filed an inquiry with Support. More than a week later the domain was still showing as available. Perhaps a week and a half later I did a search on a Canadian registrar, which showed the domain as "UNAV". I thought perhaps that was my registration that had become pending. Register.com still showed the domain as available. I inquired with Register.com's customer service who set about investigating.
.CA domains registered completely electronically, or is there a human somewhere in the loop ? What are the procedures for registering a domain dispute ? (I found some body at one point that seemed as if it would govern .CA disputes, and sent them an email, but never received a reply and put the issue to bed until I saw this article).
Then a few days later I found (at the Candian registrar) that it was now registered to another party in British Columbia. But the registration info looked phony...there was a bogus phone # and a bogus zip code. The descriptor fields looked bogus, as if they were trying to make a wan attempt at justifying their existence : they claimed it would be for "imaging purposes" (months later, there is no imaging purpose visible whatsoever).
At this point the WHOIS record had a Date-Approved field of March 20/2001 - 2 weeks after my initial registration . Though the latter refunded my money, I started feeling cheated.
I began wondering whether it was possible that some party in Canada had "hijacked" my registration attempt in transit, determined that a valuable domain was available, and set up a bogus registration complete with contact information and dummied-up purpose in order to claim it.
Is what I am imaging even at all possible ?
Are