Slashdot Mirror
HP Calculator Department Closing
Beans writes "Today is a sad day for the engineering calculator world. HP calculator department is closing. www.calc.org has the scoop. Leaving employees just announced it on comp.sys.hp48. You can check google groups for the original posts."
Damnit...I guess this means no more calculator pr0n for the geeks in the back of math class.
-- Bandit450...If-Else-Do-*TWITCH*!
My 12C accounting calculator has been with me since the 80's. She's old faithful!
Someone you trust is one of us.
Sad
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I loved my old 28C when in school used my wife's 48G today! The very first app I installed on the Palm was a HP calculator emulator. Hand me a "normal" calculator and I fumble all over the place.
For me, the 48G was my first exposure to hacking hardware. They had port you could buy (not an option) or build an adaptor - and could use kermit to communicate with it.
Students today have no idea what they are missing when they pull out their TI...
+++ UGUCAUCGUAUUUCU
Having used my HP49 for quite some time now I have to say that it really is a great piece of engineering.
It is true that the main usage field for HP calculators is engineering and science, but in my opinion HP should have tried to sell more calculators to high school students and schools, because if someone is used to use TIs he is unlikely to switch to HP unless forced (after all, 170$ for an HP49g is not exactly cheap).
It's a pity to see the HP calcs go. Let's hope the HP calculator community keeps being vital.
...for the geek community.
Sorry.
I know HP's cutting back because of the economy, but I wonder how much more of this is simply Texas Instruments' dominance in calculators. I know of only one high school in my area that uses the HPs and none of the departments at my university use them either.
I never could understand the reverse polish notation, but I always thought the IR in the HPs were a much better idea than the physical link cables of the TIs.
"...today consumers have been conditioned to think of beer when they see a bullfrog..."
...strike up the violin. TI-89 for life!
I have owned both HP and TI calculators. I have several of each. And I can say, without reservation, that the HP calculators are of the highest quality and last for decades. The TI keypads are doubling up numbers and missing keystrokes in a fraction of that time. This is a sad day when we have to choose between Sharp, TI, and Casio as our big-name calculators.
You remind me of someone saying "I'm glad Ferrari is going out of business. Chevy for life!"
Anyone remember the time when Erwin was stuck in an old HP Calculator?
Michael C. Hollinger
I am extremely satisfied with my TI-89. Note, however, that I have not used, extensively, an HP calculator. I've heard great things about them, but you know what: MY 89 IS FINE. It gets the job done, and quite well, if you ask me. I've never had a problem with it (aside from the "feet" falling off), and I am impressed by the enormous number of functions that come built into the OS.
I really should not have said what I said above, as I am sure HP calculators are great, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with the TI line. My friends use them, and I use them. They work wonders for us.
Man is born free; and everywhere he is in chains.
HP of today reminds me of DEC and Lucent. None of these companies seem to be able to market and profit from the fruits of their massive engineering talent. None can dispute the quality of the hardware and software in HP's calculators, but HP are not able to turn it into a long-term successful business unit. HP have spun of most of their best products into the mismanaged and unable to execute Agilent. Note the parallel with Lucent. I don't know why these companies let their best products go adrift but I find it depressing.
I've been using HP calculators since I was in grade 5. I remember the first day I received my trusty old 32SII. It was awkward at first, but RPN grew on me very fast. I continued to use this calculater, learning every function for it that I could. I used to laugh at my classmates for not even being able to add 1 + 2 on my calculater. It allowed me to be both pretentious and productive at the same time. It gave me a new unconventional way to look at the problems at hand.
Come university, I went out and splurged for my 48GX. Although I have yet to take the time to learn all of this beast-of-a-calculater's functionality, I know that if I did I would be even more productive. HP calculators are truly ingenious tools.
One thing I must say though is that I don't think it's fair that some educational institutions *make* students buy other more conventional calculaters. Specially in the fields and engineering and computer science. Students miss out by using the old-fashioned calculator, eg: the TI-8[69?]. Students learn and become dependent on their calculaters as they don't ever learn different ways of attacking the given problem. Blame the schools for not letting their students use a real calculater.
I shall not to it tell this sad and dire news. It will be happier to believe that it's family still lives and grows. I cannot so crush it's spirit by telling it that that loathsome monster of poorly-designed calculating devices, TI, shall be triumphant.
Alas.
In July O7, I got a mac pro. There's no punchline. Just endless joy and wonder.
There are some HP48 emulators for UNIX/Linux on http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/pc/emulators/ X48 is available for most UNICES and there are ROM files, too (HP allowed the 48's ROM files to be downloaded sometime in 2000)
I have been using the Hewlett Packard calculators since high school. I wrote a software package for the HP 49G that provides a lot of additional functions, and is free. I was using my HP 49G just this morning to get my MAT 3701 homework done. I will be using the HP 49G a lot longer then I had planned, apparently. I really prefer RPN. Anybody interested in providing startup capital for a new calculator company?
Best Slashdot comment ever
You are a decent guy and I hope, whatever calculator you choose, that it serves you well.
There is a lot of history related to HP calculators. HP introduced the scientific calculator to the world with the HP-35. That was 1972 and it came with rechargeable batteries rather than the crappy little 9 volt battery clip. The HP-41 was standard equipment on the space shuttle. They have really revolutionized the industry and it's indeed a sad day to see them close down the shop.
I started college in 1981 and HP-41C's where state of the art at the time. You could solve 16 simultaneous equations at your desk, as opposed to walking to the lab to use a mainframe or TRS-80. My girlfriend at the time bought me a top of the line HP-41CX for Christmas and she called it "baby Hewey" (of course I had to marry her after that!)
The were some of us hackers who used a backdoor to do "synthetic programming". One trick was to get the goose to fly backwards. Anybody remember that? How many of us have grown up to be linux/unix hackers? I bet most of us . . .
Oh the good old days . . .
Smokin' Joe
The link mentioned in the topic is trashed. I searched the newsgroup and checked hpcalc.org and they make it sound like ACO is closing, but the calculators will still be made. HP's website still has the calculator section, with no mention of shutting it down. Man... Want to get the full scoop before I break the bad news to my father. He's sworn by HP calcs for 25 years. Can anyone clarify what is actually happening?
I've been using HP RPN calculators since I was a little kid. My dad's 25C is about as old as I am and still works. My 48G got me through high school and college math with much more style than my TI-using friends :p I get teased about being old-fashioned for liking RPN, but I still think it's a much more fluid way to think and compute than infix notation, and there was this neat kind of bond between all the HP users. Kind of unhappy to know that there will be a lack of RPN calculators in the future.
---- I'm going to lead you kicking and screaming, giggling and laughing into the future.
I am signing up for college this january and I still have my old ti-85 with 32k of ram from 94 back in high school. From what I have seen is that the hp calculators are more programmable and more powerfull then TI calcs. I also know my plam m100 is alot more powerfull then either one. My palm has has a much more powerfull processor ( 20 mhz I think) and 2 megs of ram not to mention its alot more programable. I can download python, a lite version of java, as well as free c compilers for it. Perhaps we (as in the fsf community) should write some gnu calculator and mathmatical utilities for it and try to convince palm to focus on this market. My math skills are not quit there to write some of these utilities. Palm is hurting for marketshare and if they could sell palms to graduate engineering and science students who want a powerfull graphical calculator plus a few other goodies then they could gain some mindshare and more profits.
Lets compare. $179 for a top of the line HP calculator vs $149 for a palm m100 with a todo list, games, calender, alarm, free compilers out on the web, and a scientific calculator sounds like a much better deal. Students need to plan time and the palm could do this as well as be a calculator. Not to mention you can beam programs back and forth with the IR port. A pda is like a calculator on steriods. Its really a mini computer. The only difference is you have virtual buttons on the screen rather then physical ones. Graphing is slow as hell on my TI-85 and I fear IT may harm innovation if they dominate. I do not want TI to dominate the whole calculator market.
http://saveie6.com/
Well, on a similar note, I just wanted to say that I am extremely satisfied with my Windows machine. Note, however, that I have not used, extensively, a Unix system. I've heard great things about them, but you know what: MY WINDOWS MACHINE IS FINE. It gets the job done, and quite well, if you ask me. I've never had a problem with it (aside from the "interface" going all to hell), and I am impressed by the enormous number of functions that come built into the OS.
I really should not say anything bad about Unix, as I am sure Unix machines are great, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Windows line. My friends use them, and I use them. They work wonders for us.
Also, I would like to tell you how extremely satisfied I am with my McDonald's hamburger. Note, however, that I have not eaten, often, steak...
I have to say, i was given a 48gx by my family for chistmas one year in high school. I remember sitting around figuring out how to write games for it, i remember using it in calculus class, and i keep it on my computer desk and use it almost every day. I love that poor old calculator. I love the fact that it has a hierarchical filesystem. It just plain rules. Plus on top of that it's really burly and indestructible...
Goddamn.
---
Play Six Pack Man. I
Reverse Polish Notation Lives
and
This sad is.
Hey, that's almost like English! Makes you wonder.
Head over to www.ticalc.org, and I'm sure you'll find some - interesting - files.
I'm the stranger...posting to
Somebody already asked about a Palm Pilot being a suitable replacement (er, successor). There are certainly scientific calculator apps for Palm Pilots and similar devices, and there are already hp calculator emulators in various states of functionality for various platforms.
I wonder what HP is going to do with the many years of development that went into the roms and downloadable software that we've all come to know and love. Would Bruce Perens be able to swing an open source release so that the hp calcs can live on? And if that were to happen, what would be the best way to make use of such software? Would a Palm Pilot with perhaps a native port of a 49G rom be feasible? A strongarm port? A transmeta-based super-calc?
By the way, I still have my 28s somewhere, my 48GX was stolen, and I have a 49G right here next to my keyboard. At least I'll have it to show to my grandkids, or something like that.
There are all sorts of hacks you can do to a TI graphic calc, including the installation of backlights, remote controls, overlocking, memory expansions, and homemade link cables. I don't think we need complain about the lack of hackable calcs, even though HP is gone.
I'm the stranger...posting to
I own an HP49, and was familiar with the HP48G. I know most HP users think TI's are crap, Mostly because of the lack of RPN, (they do have a nice interface though :)
However, to my original point, the TI 89, (which the HP 49 was built to compete with) uses RPN internally. Every time you evaluate an expression on the TI 89 command line it is run through a parser that tokenizes it into RPN statements that end up on the expressions stack. It would be very easy to write an assembly program to provide an interface similar to the visual representation of the stack present on the 48/49. It would be even easier to write such a program using tigcc. In fact, to do symbolic manipulation using tigcc you have to feed all the data into the expressions stack then process it in RPN. The fact that the TI89 uses flash technology means you could add this functionality permanently to the calculator's featurelist. This would be a fun program to write if someone wanted to give it a shot, and all you'd really be doing is taking out the middleman.
That's exactly what happened when I was in high school 10 years ago. My math teachers all had HPs and loved them. The next year, the school must have made some deal with TI, because the teachers were forced to use TI calculators, and they didn't like them nearly as much. They kept their personal HPs at their desk to use, and only used the TI to demonstrate how to do something on it.
Edward Burr
Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like having a peeing section in a swimming pool.
I hated it in college when they wouldn't let me use it on tests because it was "programmable". It takes me at least twice as long to do anything on an infix calculator.
1.) Standardized testing and exams. For both of these in college, a lot of the time you will be required to use a standard graphics calculator. When that happens, having a high-end TI or HP calc is very nice.
2.)Speed. Maybe it's just me, but I find I can enter numbers a lot faster on my TI-83+ than I can on my Revo Plus, which has a keyboard, stylus, and a variety of graphics calculator apps which really blow the 83+ out of the water.
I'm the stranger...posting to
My history with HP...
I've been using my 11c since around 1987 (I actually got a second one in 1989, but it croaked about two years ago). It's been my favorite calculator since I got it. I've owned lots of calculators, including a casio 8700g, a TI-89, and my current HP48-gx. They're all fine, but I use my 11c more than anything else (I can do almost everything faster with it). Without any text entry/dispaly, it can do most everything I require on a daily basis; it can be programmed (203 steps, 4-level subroutine depth) to do more complex tasks, has more storage than I normally need (21 locations). It doesn't look fancy (no LCD matrix), so it could fool any of my math teachers into thinking it was an 'ordinary' calculator (now remember this was '87, and it had already been out for 6 years). It is by far and away the most useful single (i.e. never replaced) piece of electronics that I use on a daily basis. HP you have served me well, and will be missed (from the calculator business). I don't know what I will do when this HP-11 dies. Maybe I should keep a lookout on ebay.
A great resource on older HP calculators can be found at: http://www.hpmuseum.org
I think we can all agree it's no contest - neither sharp nor casio calcs are near as programmable or hackable as TIs - even if you think that TI calc are edsels compared to HPs, everything else is pretty much a horse-drawn carriage compared to TI.
I'm the stranger...posting to
But I will miss Reverse Polish Notation. It's funny to see the look on peoples faces when you loan them an HP cause they forgot their calculator and there's a test in 5 minutes.
I've hit Karma 50 and gotten a Score:5, Troll... I win!
One thing though, we were once dealing with a real bugger of an equation, and to solve for variables on the "wrong" side of it, he just had us put as many numbers in it as possible to crunch some of the algebra out of it and then solve. One student asked him about changing it around, and he said he did it by hand a few years ago and it took him eight sheets of paper and about two hours. I did it on my TI-92+ sitting there in class in about five minutes.
He couldn't help but be impressed.
My point is that the HP croud acts so stuck up sometimes that they can't admit that some TI calculators have some really neat featurs. It's not a Chevy vs Ferrari debate, it's more like Chevy vs Ford. I'll agree though, all TI calculators except the 92* and 89s suck ass.
Jordan Bettis
``Wherever you go, there's another stupid sigfile quote.''Common TI misconception. RPN also eliminates the need for parens.
Try (5 + 3) * (6 + 1).
TI: 5 + 3 = * ( 6 + 1 ) =
HP: 5 E 3 + 6 E 1 + *
Assuming my TI keystrokes are correct (I haven't
used one for 20 years), that's two less keystrokes
for this simple example.
I run hpcalc.org and would like to clarify this article.
HP is not ceasing the production of calculators. Instead, HP has shut down the department that develops new calculators.
This is nothing unusual. In the mid-1990's, HP already effectively shut down calculator development for several years.
The manufacture of calculators is completely separate from the development, and production will continue.
I recall the glory days of my Engineering school. There were two classes of engineers, those with an HP and those without. The thing ate matrix algebra (the kind used in RLC circuits) for breakfast. It did graphing of calculus functions. It calculated 253! faster than my 80286 did 49!.
My HP28S _STILL_ enjoys a place of respect, even if changing the batteries is a pain in the ass (and it uses an odd size too) and even if all I do with it now is basic math/trig/etc. I don't need the powertool for what I used it for since I'm now a software engineer, but I still can't use normal calculators - RPN has spoiled me.
RPN has got to be one of the most sensible ways to do things for anyone who ever understood computer systems - stack operations just make so much sense!
But alas, RPN hurts the heads of the mass of the uninitiated or the uninformable. And so, a legend of quality goes to the boneyard. People would rather have the sub-capable alleged "calculators" on the Palm100 (what a piece of crap) than have something that can _really_ do complicated math (even complex math and convolutions and all sorts of neat stuff) with brutal speed. I guess that's probably because math (the kind done by people, rather than expensive software packages) is largely a dying art.
Ah, the memories.... the first time I heard someone play all of Star Wars from the HP... the first time I aced a mid-term because my calculator reduced the mindless number crunching to a manageable task.... the first time I encountered complex numbers because the HP spit back an odd result (x,y) and the y part was the complex component.
Sad day indeed.
-- Mal: "Well they tell you: never hit a man with a closed fist. But it is, on occasion, hilarious."
Then we could distribute x48 complete, and HP would live on forever....
This is scary. I have an HP28S, but I am afraid of what to do if it ever dies. Tonight I am going out to buy some N Types for it.
:(
BTW, does anyone know if this is the only item to use these types of batteries? I hope not or else we will have to do something drastic to use them.
...for both Hewlett and Packard to die to do this.
Hi. I'm Jean-Yves Avenard, working for HP (not for much longer) The closure of ACO has nothing to do with calculators. In fact, HP stopped the development of new calculators two years ago and started to work on low-end PDA. It's the economic downturn that's forcing HP to restructure itself and there were two divisions working on PDA (APCD in Singapore and the Jornada) I would have other comments, but I've just signed a paper saying that I can't say anything bad about HP, and there's lot to tell :)
Cheers
Jean-Yves
This is scary. I have an HP28S, but I am afraid of what to do if it ever dies.
Me three. Indeed, my 28S is showing signs of its age. The plastic battery door is gone, but the metal part is still there, so it still works. It's more precarious, though. More distressingly, somethings come a little bit detached on the right side keyboard, so that the faceplate is a little bit loose and occasionally the keys bounce. But I'd be very very sad if I had to do without this, or some other HP.
I've had this thing since 1988. One of the best Christmas presents I ever got.
-Rob
You guys did some magnificent work, and your products will be sorely missed. Thanks for all you did, from a very satisfied customer.
I love my 41-C, and I'll probably keep using it for the rest of my career.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Yes, but can they also be freely distributed? It does not say that. Also, where is the source?
sad
HP is no longer a job for life
HP no longer does the R&D
HP no longer has the guts to just go for it
read history and see whats comeing
regards
john jones
The HP-35 was the original hand-held scientific calculator. I worked all summer carrying garbage to buy one for $495 back when $495 was worth something, men were men, women were women and they didn't joke about it.
Seastead this.
The 28S is the only calculator I've seen that uses N cells.
:)
My 28S was the very first purchase I made on the first credit card I got back in university. Lots of money to shell out for someone fresh out of high school (back in 1988), but after an engineer friend of mine showed me his, I had to have one.
It's been the only calculator I've ever needed ever since, and still serves me faithfully, although I don't have the occasion to use it quite as often as I used to. I've heard people complain about the clamshell form factor, but it's the toughest and most durable calculator I've ever seen. I had a bit of a scare a few years back when I pulled it out and discovered the batteries had leaked all over it. Thankfully, cleaning off the battery contacts brought it back to life.
My brother got himself a 48GX a few years ago, and was bragging about it, but I could still calculate circles around him with my 28S.
BTW, the 28S currently exists as a financial calculator in the HP line.
"For I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and Long Words Bother Me"
If you write to HP, they'll send you a new battery cover. Mine broke off when I accidently dropped it, so I wrote them and to my surprise they mailed me a new battery door cover.
"For I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and Long Words Bother Me"
It is very unfortunate that this story linked directly to www.calc.org. They have been having server troubles for a few weeks now, and getting slashdotted doesn't help. At the moment, www.calc.org is the only (TI) calculator website with a decent archive. www.ticalc.org (by far the largest archive) took it's archives offline because of some 'bad content' which stems from the CD that they made in conjunction with texas instruments.
The ti community could use some help right about now...
Greg www.geocities.com/gdietsche/
and yes... Gravity still works! (and some times that can be problematic)
According to hpcalc.org, it's the *Australian* HP calculator group that's closing. Is that the entirety of HP's calculator development operation?
IIRC, the HP-41 was developed at a facility in Oregon. Did they move the whole group to Australia?
Anyone from HP available to comment, please?
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
The advantage of RPN is more than just the raw number of keystrokes.
When I'm solving a real-world problem, usually I have the numbers (or you look them up when you need them), then I need to put them together semi-interactively. You look at the number on the screen, decide what the next step is, then do it.
RPN let's you type the number in, then decide what to do with it as you go. Algebraic/TI notation is only really useful when you've got a long formula on the page, and you want to read it left-to-right, parentheses and all, and just hit = at the end.
That happens a lot when you are a student who is just grinding through textbook problems, but hardly ever happens when you are thinking on your feet.
The levels of precendence used in the algebraic system are based on rules that make it easy to read equations on paper. There is no intrinsic reason why multiplication is higher precendence than addition, it just happens in practice to be most legible to write equations that way. When you're dealing with numbers, trying to get other numbers, the RPN stack let's you do things with the precendence that works best for thinking through the problem. APL has even a screwier behavior than RPN, but people who use it (I don't) swear it makes solving problems easier.
I still use my HP10c on a near daily basis. It is from the mid '70s. If it dies before me, I'll get another HP calculator. However, it seems that it is one of these "buy once in a life-time" type things. Great for the consumer, but not so good for the producer. HP hadn't yet heard of engineered d obsolescence then, I guess.
Best wishes,
Bob
Not that they're likely to fly off the shelves but I've been meaning to get an HP for a while now and all of a sudden they're going to vanish completely.
Not to mention the fact that I'm not even sure where to buy an HP calculator. The few places I've looked just have Casio's and TI's. Didn't Wal-Mart used to sell some HP's at least?
I would find it a real pain in the ass to have to learn even the HP way of entering in simple algebra....Of course, I'm not saying that HP shouldn't keep making calculators, but there are a lot of people complaining that TIs are cheap crappy imitations, and for most people thats just not the case.
I still have my HP-41CV. I've had it since HP first released it. This little baby was THE calculator in its time. I went so far as to do assembly language programming on it (required special hardware). My 41 still sits on my desk for whenever I need to do some quick math.
Recently, I needed to buy a calculator for my daughter. The school specified a certain TI model. So I bought her a Hewlett-Packard calculator. I refuse to let the school dictate what companies I will do business with. Besides, TI calculators are junk.
-- Will program for bandwidth
The current state of affairs is emblematic of a larger shift in the software industry that's been ongoing for a while.
It might surprise many people to know that HP's most recent calculator offering, the HP49G, uses a 4 MHz Saturn processor. This is a 4-bit (yes, 4-bit) processor that was originally introduced (at a blazing 0.64 MHz) to support the HP71B calculator in 1984.
A friend of mine showed me his HP28C calculator in 1987. This was the first of the HP calculators to support symbolic manipulation of expressions; I remember being impressed not only at the power of the calculator but the careful thought that had gone into its design of its user interface. I didn't learn until much later that this was all being done using a processor that was underpowered even by the standards of the day.
It turned out that a lot of the power was due to the work of a team assembled by Bill Wickes, then a physics professor at the University of Maryland. He'd purchased an earlier calculator, the HP41C, and had discovered a bug that allowed him access to the calculator's machine code. It didn't take long for folks to become conversant in this "synthetic programming," which allowed people to do things with the HP41C that the calculator's designers never intended.
HP was first and foremost an engineering organization at that point, so they hired him (the fact that the DMCA didn't yet exist also prevented them from suing him into oblivion) to design the next generation of calculators, which included the HP28C, HP28S, and the HP48 series. Development stopped in the mid 1990s for a while, but the current Australia-based group led by Jean-Yves Avenard and Gerald Squelart have continued to develop miraculously functional software for surprisingly limited hardware.
The capabilities of modern hardware have advanced so quickly that it's much easier to miss the beauty of small, quick, functional code. It's easier to write big, bloated code--and let the hardware make up for the resulting inefficiency.
Now I run into occasions where the user interface for the operating system (never mind the underlying application) on a Pocket PC that's based on a 206 MHz StrongARM 32-bit processor. While I wouldn't want to roll back the clock on hardware performance, I hope that the art of writing fast, lean code doesn't become an unintended victim of progress.
One of the things I wanted to do when my HP48G dies (which might be never) or when I find a broken HP calculator is to figure out how to build a snap on, or maybe a wireless linked, keyboard to the Palm platform. I know it's possible, it just might need a little PIC chip doing the translations. That calculator was always with me through my EE degree, and we used to joke that the engineering jackets used to have oversized inside pockets to store them perfectly.
A palm with the HP keys would be the ultimate. The tactile feedback on the 48GX is incredible and allowed me to "know" I did a calculation right, whereas the other ones and later models TI lacked that positive "thunk" feel.
Anyone wanna send me a busted HP? :)
..don't panic
I have also owned and used both HP and TI calculators, and I must say that I vastly prefer TI's. Both brands are physically very well made; maybe the HP's buttons are a little better, I've never had problems with either. The interface to the TI is excellent, very easy, intuitive, and logical. The interface to the HP's is also good. But RPN is not the best choice for scientific work, nor for student work.
For banging up some numbers to get an answer, RPN is indeed faster once you get the hang of it. But for careful work, it is better to have standard notation and a history of commands. Suppose the expression you are trying to evaluate has many terms. It is much better to enter each term into the calculator (in standard notation) and get a result. You then have a list of things you typed, and the responses from the calculator. With RPN you don't get this. Having the history helps with tracking down errors, and with keeping the entire problem in your head. Being able to go back and edit previous terms is wonderful, and you can't do that with RPN.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
None of those are features HP doesn't have... my 48G can do symbolic math, 3d graphing, (what processor it uses is irrelvant), and has a gcc target. Try again?
The Matrix is going down for reboot now! Stopping reality: OK. The system is halted.
Sounds like you want to live in a world of dull mediocrity. No thanks.
I was the geek in HS that was walking around with this crap Novus RPN calculator that I won in a contest. It was cool, but wasn't much more than a calculator for me. When the 41C was announced, I was in heaven. Aside from it being $300, and myself having no money, it was what I wanted most in this world. I even cut out the ad for it from an OMNI magazine (remember those!), and framed it.
That year for xmas, after everything was open, and we were milling around the house, my mom told me there was one other present under the tree. I could have died when I got the wrapper off. I taught myself to program with that calculator. I would spend hours sitting around and write games for it, learning to convert bases, it got me into learing math that my teachers were never able to get me interested in. It set the course for my life as an engineer. It wasn't until years later that I was able to get on a computer, and learn to do anything more.
A few years ago, I was in a pinch, and sold my 41C on Ebay. I felt like shit after it was gone. So much time, so much passion went into that little box of electronics. I have had other HPs since then, up though the 48s. No matter what they do to the HP calcs, there will always be a warm spot in my heart for them. I doubt I would be where I am now without them.
Thanks HP!
WWJD -- What Would Jimi Do?
(Smash amp, burn guitar, take home the groupies)
Hard to use? Either you are joking or have never used an HP calculator. They are a joy to use. The only reason someone didn't have an HP in engineering college was that they hadn't saved up enough to buy one yet.
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
Parent posting is Insightful!?!?, If you haven't even used the both calculator, how can you comment on 'the HP way of entering simple algebra'
Open your mind... You should never be afraid to try something new... In HS, I too laughed at the bizarre RPN that was used by HP calculators, but as I continued studies in college, I gave RPN a chance, and found that it was definitely with the learning curve. Problems in Engineering and Physics were much easier with the HP then they would have been on a traditional calculator.
Once you get into industry, are you going to tell your manager, no I don't want to learn to do that, it seems like a pain in the ass?
Looking for any old 8-bit Heathkit/Zenith software/hardware - http://heathkit.garlanger.com
Using my 48sx to solve the problems in electronics class that they taught us to solve graphically. My answers were more correct because I could more accurately pic the spot where they intersected (I forget the actual problem, but the answer was the point which both curves intersected....i got a severe case of CRS...). Nice calc! I remember seeing ANIMATIONS done on this thing and these had IR transfer BEFORE palms did. I even seen games done on this, but not many. I miss my 48sx....damn thing dropped through a hole in my backpack when I was still in college. Damn.....had ot buy a casio to replace it and i never recovered since! I even had a IR thermal printer too! You could print your graphs and pics out on them. Very nice. I need to get another HP calculator.
Gorkman
I still own 2 programmable calculators myself and use them with some regularity, but it must be more than 10 years since I last programmed a programmable calculator. It seems to me that by the time I would bother to write a calculator program for a task, I'm sufficiently out of the spontaneous use space of calculators that I might just as well sit down at a real computer and use a spreadsheet or perl or C for the job.
Is there anybody here who really writes and/or uses programs for programmable calculators on a daily basis?
My trusty Keuffel & Esser sliderule model # 4041, patented June 5, 1900... You're all posers.
Can you just imagine having to put your command line args in RPN?
/etc/passwd | grep fascdot | cut -d: -f7
MyCalc%> mv file1 file2
error: argument missing
MyCalc%> file1 file2 mv
MyCalc%> cat
cut: error: argument "|" is invalid
(I was going to re-write that in RPN, but I can't even figure out how pipelining would work--so forget it)
If you celebrate Xmas, befriend me (538
It must have been 25 years ago when I first saw an HP caclulator. They were bolted to the workbench in a University Physics Lab. It left a lasting impression. The Rolls Royce of calculators ...
...
A few years later, I brought my first HP calculator - an HP34C, I think - I used it when I first started my first job as a Structural Engineer. Some ten years later, I sold the HP34C to a 'serious HP collector' in Australia. I hope it still working hard for him too.
A succession of employers have given me HP's for my daily work, mainly HP41 variants. They were all quality machines that provided years of solid service under heavy use.
I fondly remember the HP11C(?) that the Surveyors lost when being chased by a dog. They got it back the next day - from the offending dogs kennel - by a clever diversionary tactic. The dog had been chewing the calculator overnight, and teeth marks were clearly visible on the aluminium band. And the calculator? Well it's still in daily use.
I'm going to miss HP calculators
Actually, HP has quite a good reputation as a financial calculator, too. I use one for my Finance class, the HP 10BII (which, incidentally, costs the same price as the competition from TI).
One of the things I like about the HP is that they use quality keys. They're very stiff and provide great tactile feedback. Not like those little rubber thingys that you wonder if you pushed it in right.
OTOH, I used a friend's HP12c the other day, and was a little surprised at how slow it ran. I was doing an IRR computation, which cannot be solved directly but requires the calc to "plug and chug" a bunch of numbers until it finds the right one. My 10BII solved it in a couple of seconds; the 12c took significantly longer. That may not sound like a big deal, until you consider that the 12c costs more than twice as much, and is one of the best on the market. It tells me that the 12c internals hadn't been refreshed in a long time. (Makes me wonder if closing the calc division hasn't been a long time coming.)
My guess is that the market is too saturated with competitors and the margins are too thin for a "premium quality" calculator to be mass produced at competitive prices.
What a shame. It's like the same situation with keyboards; so many crap keyboards flooded the market in the past decade that its near-impossible to find a decent quality keyboard anymore.
Something's not quite right here... The linked article said the group's been in operation for four years. I used HP calculators 15+ years ago, and they were well-established then.
What gives?
I have to say, though, that the HP49 is some kind of utter nightmare. It's as if HP turned its back on all of the good things that evolved over the years and decided that Texas Instruments was the holy grail or something. While the calculator is quite powerful, I find that it's useability is just horrendous and the calculator is actually slower than both the HP49GX and the TI92Plus. In fact, nobody that I know in academia or in engineering gives the 49 a passing glance.
Nonetheless, everyone is entitled to a mistake, I guess. On the other hand, HP has made a significant marketing mistake by not grabbing the hearts and minds of students. Texas Instruments is the king in that regard, if only because of their academic program that gives teachers calculators free of charge based on the number of TI calculators that their students use.
Amazingly, Hewlett Packard has the single largest corporate site in their organization here in Boise, Idaho, yet you'll find that the dominant calculator in use (by far) at the local university is the TI. Why? Because TI gives calculators to the faculty free of charge if their students use enough of them. What is the dominant brand of calculator in the university's bookstore? Yep, TI. And this is from a university that has the 7th best public engineering program in the nation. And is just 10 miles from a huge HP campus. Go figure.
Still, I'll be sad to see them go. But I wouldn't blame Fiorina for the loss...I think it's been a long time coming.
-h-
The HP48GX is very slow. It has been several years since my college days when I bought them, but as I recall the HP had all of its higher functions written in an interpretted calculator language. Between hitting the HP's enter and seeing a result there was always a noticeable delay. The more complicated the process, the longer the delay. The HP felt sluggish. I seem to remember that someone was selling a "compiled" version of the HP OS for the 48GX that ran significantly faster.
I never ran definite integral calculations on the HP because the time they would take was on the order of tens of seconds. The TI-92 would whip the answer out in 1 or 2 seconds, and I would see my equation formatted so I could decide if I had entered it correctly or not. The HP has an equation editor, but it was nothing like what the 92 has.
The symbolic math of the 48GX SUCKS, or maybe I just can't figure it out... hit "symbolic"->"integrate", enter "x^2", variable "x", "ok".... Ooops, it won't symbolically integrate without a range. Huh? Okay, try the range 0 to 1 (even though I want a symbolic/indefinite, not definite answer). The result: X^(2+1)/((2+1)*dX(X))|(X=1)-(X^(2+1)/((2+1)*dX(X)) |(X=0)). Okay, the answer X^3/3 is there, but in a terrible form. If I didn't already know the answer I'd have an awful time FINDING the answer. Doing the same thing on the TI yields the correct answer in the simplist format and doesn't ask for a range when I want the answer symbolically.
The TI-92 was a superior calculator for mathematics courses.
However, as has been said on numerous posts... RPN is efficient for science and engineering, once you get used to it. For all my labs and engineering courses, the 48GX was my companion. Not to mention I was always afraid that my TI-92 would shatter to bits if it took a fall in the lab. The 48GX felt rugged from its case to its keys.
Other things the 48GX had which I found the TI-92 lacking:
Education is a better safeguard of liberty than a standing army.
Edward Everett (1794 - 1865)
As long as we're all getting nostalgic here, let me tell you the story of my first real hacking machine: my HP28s.
Sure, I had an Apple IIc in high school and I did a lot of programming on it, but I didn't do any serious hacking. Not like my HP28s. I wrote all sorts of games and cool stuff for my HP28s: a music program, a poker game with AI (albeit rather limited), and even a couple versions of a Tetris game, all in RPN. Tetris was even fairly playable speedwise after a few revisions. But my crowning achievement as an HP28 hacker was adding an RS232 serial connection running at a whopping 2400bps! Unfortunately, I only ever tested the transmit features which used the IR port because I was afraid to open the case, but another student did get two-way communication going using my code! That was a proud day, let me tell you!
But by then the HP48 had come out, with it's fancy-schmancy built-in serial port (where's the challenge with that?), I dropped out of engineering school to pursue a degree in theatre, and all of the software I wrote is now wasting away on 5-1/4" floppies in a basement somewhere. But I'll never forget all the fun times I had procrastinating my homework by doing "important" research into the inner workings of my HP28. Every once in a while I'll do a Google search to see if any of my hacks have survived on any HP28 archive sites. Ah, the glory days of old!
Thanks for the memories, HP calculater division! You'll be missed!
- Stealth Dave
Evil is as eval("does");
HP calculators have been obsolete for quite sometime now. It comes as no big surprise to me that HP is finally stopping the development of future models (I am sure H & P are rolling over in there graves). Simply put a ti89 gets the job done quicker and faster than a HP. Ever try and evaluate a triple integral with an HP? My experience has been that it can sometimes take minutes to work a problem with an HP that would take a ti89 just a fraction of a second. I took a vector calculus course in college that was technology based. Aside from using computers (maple and matlab) the professor encouraged us to purchase ti89's. The proff even wrote a vec calc package for the 89. Previously the course had been taught with HP calculators, but the proff switched over to the ti89 and told the class how he regrets the sad death of the HP calculator line. In my engineering classes I often work with students who prefer HP's. I routinely solve problems at a quicker rate with my 89 than the HP users in my static's class. I will give the HP some respect on its postfix notation, I will admit that is handy. I still prefer the power of the ti89 with its 3d graphing and ability to get me an A in diff eq and linear alg. I have yet to see anything that the HP calc can do that I can't do with my 89. Yet I see lots of stuff that I can do with an 89 that either takes to much time or is simply impossible to do with an HP. That's why I think the HP line is dying.
Essentially, every time you go into a parenthesis, that's the equivalent of another level in the stack. Every time you come out of a parenthesis, you collapse the stack with the most recent operator. If nothing else, you can very easily tell where you are at any point in time by the depth of your stack. Admittedly, having to go from postfix (on paper) to RPN (in your head/calculator) takes up some brain cycles, but once I got into the stack mentality when it came to parenthesis, it was actually FASTER to work with RPN because you know that the stack will always keep things straight, and you'll never have to do interem calculations.
Just repeat to yourself: Parenthesis Depth == Stack Depth.
the ti89 has a fullblown CAS. I can use it crunch through tripple integrals as fast as I can type!
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Ah, but They do make a palmtop.
Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
From an 'old hp' lover...
.prc collection :-)
This is indeed sad news, by itself, sad news for those being given a week's notice (Jean-Yves & the rest: it just happened to me as well, so I know how that feels!) and sad news for Engineering with a big E. [beat that: ML coding in nibbles in the 90-ties, 1700 bytes tetris! etc...]
As most pro-engineering designs, hp calculators had their cons that almost prohibited mass adoption: I mean, hp *could* have supported *both* RPN and 'natural' entry. Could have made the [graphic] displays' speeds match the CPUs inside. Could have made the darned things look both professional, serious AND sexy. But no, they had their style, and did stick to it. That's probably this mix we techies both hated (at first) and admired (soon after). I'd rather see the calc division slowly fade unaltered into history than turn into TI/Casio junk.
Now, just notice how many of the posts above, including mine, relate some glorious personal history with hp calcs from 10 or 20 years ago. See a 'problem'...? Yes, all of those calcs still work fine (including my own 48S)! Buttons & everything else work as on day1. Compare that to my PalmV (2 buttons fcuked, cover gum torn, touch-screen responsiveness(?) gets worse and worse). Old HP hardware was built to last. Who of you bought more than 1 HP calculator within a 10-15yr period?
Witness the change in printers or the Jornadas for that matter... 'great lasting quality' & 'consumer products' just don't go together anymore, at least not when technology changes the way it does now. Fiorina's arrival was bound to transform HP from a (slightly-sexier-than) DEC into DELL (sidenote: isn't it weird to see how remaining DEC bits will integrate into HP now they went through the Compaq counter-culture, eh?)
It does indeed look like a page has been turned, and the arrival of the PDAs pushes the calc business to the sidelines. Price & volume economy... And it's not a surprise for anybody: a simple search for 'rpn' on palmgear on turns out 43 entries, those did not appear yesterday! So take the ride & dl that HP12C (or whatever) 'emulator' to add to your gameboy, macII, atari and commodore64
Hopefully, we will preserve the spirit. But I'll ALWAYS MISS the BUTTONS.
Haha, I sent my father on a little mission when he was in Hong Kong.....to buy me a HP48S. Resisting the temptation to cheat and fill up the machine with all manner of eqautions, I went to my A-Level Maths exam.
:)
Inevitable happened, I got stuck on some really tough questions. I cannot believe how much guilt I had to endure as I watched that little marvel integrate some horrendous algebra graphically for me
Thanks HP, I would not be who I am today without you. A dirty little cheat who can't do calculus.
Po
One day at work one of the mechanical engineers asked to borrow my calculator. I handed him my trusty HP. He poked at it a few times, then asked "Where's the 'equals' key?"
I simply stared at him for a couple seconds and said, "You're not really an engineer, are you?"
This is indeed sad. I wouldn't consider buying anything but an HP. My trusty 15C got me through my BSEE degree. Thank ghu for complex matrix operations! Once I got out and landed a job writing firmware I wanted to get a 16C, but sadly HP didn't make them any more. I finally found someone willing to sell a used one for $50 and I snatched it up. At another job, a project designer gave me an almost-new 42S because it lacked the one function he needed. (Actually, I suspect the gift was something of a bribe to keep me on his project.)
And where am I today? Well, right now that 17-year-old 15C is sitting on the desk next to me. The 16C and 42S are in my drawer at work. (The 42S does everything the 16C does and more, but the 16C is just way more convenient for most programming calculations.) Maybe HP is getting out of the calculator business because their products are too good. They last forever. Unlike the TIs which have the self-destructing keypads...
Chelloveck
I give up on debugging. From now on, SIGSEGV is a feature.
Pardon me, but at what point did high school math or physics get complicated enough to need an advanced calculator. I used my HP28S & 48Gx extensively while getting my degree in electrical engineering; however, the most I ever used calculators in high school was for the Trig. (it's a little painstaking to calculate the cos(x) manually all the time.) At some point the methods of problem solving become more the issue than the actual execution of mathematical tedium. However, learning to do the tedium is part of any good education. Are high schools actually promoting the use of technology over actual learning?
http://www.JournalOfTheRandom.com
As the person below you said, thankfully, other products use this battery. My wife also told me that a least one camera she has seen uses it.
BTW, the 28S currently exists as a financial calculator in the HP line.
I saw it at Fry's. Does it do everything the 28S does? I may have to buy it for a back-up if it is cheap enough.
You can fly on an HP calc because you know when you've pressed a key. You hear it and FEEL it. Give me a TI and I have to push harder and keep looking to see if the key shows up. I get accidental double presses on TI's too which NEVER happens with an HP. Basically an HP has a feel of quality to it and a TI feels like a cheap toy.
Lasers Controlled Games!
I wonder if it's posssible to port Octave to the Palm. Perhaps even a gnuplot palm terminal.. Perhaps it's already been done.
And to think that just Friday I happened to run across a Casio calculator ad in a physics magazine, whereupon a friend and I laughed hysterically at the thought of having to actually buy a Casio calculator . Is this poetic irony? Oh HP, why hast thou forsaken the geeks?
- Relativistic? That's barely Newtonian!
A sad day indeed. I've used HP since I was old enough to know what a calculator was. My first was an HP32E. I still have my father's HP45, and my succession of calculators: HP32E, HP41C and HP48SX. Then I went overboard and started buying old calculators, getting (from memory) 15C, 16C, 19C, 19BII, 21, 25, 35, 46, 55, 65, 67, 80, 97.
(Some people have a greatly exagerated idea of the value of a 35 (the first scientific pocket calculator.) Lots were made. Of the list above, I would rate the 19C, 46, 65, 67 and 97 as rarer and more valuable.)
Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
My only gripe about the N cells is that HP built the 28S to use 3 of them. I used to be able to get them individually at the university bookstore, but now I can only find them packaged in pairs, so unless you've got another device that only uses one N cell, the other one ends up getting wasted because by the time the batteries need to be changed again, the lone N cell from the last batch is dead.
:)
oh well.
still won't trade in my 28S for anything. it was my very first PDA in fact. There was a simple address book program I found, and even a clock program. Now if only I could find my manuals...
"For I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and Long Words Bother Me"
OTOH, I've still got my 18-year old 11-C: I still carry it in my flight bag since I don't need anything more powerful.
The death of HP calculators is truly sad. Best things ever made for computation. I think I'm going to go buy a 48 just as a back up.
Eric
"Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
What alternatives exist to the HP48/HP49? I've been entirely unimpressed with the TI line, and I'm wondering what to switch to when my HP48GX finally outlives its usefulness.