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USNA "Budget" Satellite Launched and Functioning
Arpad Korossy writes: "Hey, you ran a story on this earlier, and some people expressed doubt whether a sattelite made for a tenth of the usual cost using mostly components from Radio Shack would work; well, it has. The best line in the whole article has to be 'Instead of a $50,000 antenna system, the group used a metal tape measure.""
Instead of a $50,000 antenna system, the group used a metal tape measure.
Nasa thought it was such a good idea they have placed a $1,000,000 order for 20 metal tape measures.
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
This has got to be some sort of a record- Radio Shack stuff working!
Username taken, please choose another one.
This type of initiative is what will lead to the eventual commercialization of space.
Let's face it, it *shouldn't* cost half a billion bucks to build something that will survive in low earth orbit. Inside the magnetopause the hazard to electronics just isn't that huge.
utter rubbish
Proof that over the years NASA has not "cut corners" but, has over spent on their projects. If a group of undergraduates can make a space survivable craft then what has NASA been doing for the last 40 years. Although I am bashing their budgeting practices I do give them credit for some of their overspending. They did pratically invent space travel and more then likely they were responsible for putting the Radio Shack advertisment in space anyway.....
I like how anyone can just send transmissions to it. /. it!
Let's see if we can
I have 3656.9 Bogomips. How many Bogomips do you have?
...I've been using a metal coathanger to pick up TV for years :)
proof of Osama's guilt..
The metal measurement tape omnidirectional antenna system was already used on the AMSAT AO-40 hamradio satellite slashdot already posted news stories about a couple of times. The interesting part is that both antennaes which used that system failed mysteriously (or alternatively the transmitters did, this is not for sure yet).
a satellite built by Naval Academy midshipmen with off-the-shelf parts from Radio Shack is exceeding all expectations
And it's exceeding mine too. :-) Approximately 3 out of every 5 things that I've gotten at radio shack have either been broken when I got them home or they broke shortly later. I can recall a CD player that *melted*, audio cabling that had breaks in the wires, and broken rj-45 connectors off hand...
If this thing can go another week, i'll be really impressed.
I'd like to point out to all thos who think that NASA overspends its budget the vast cost difference between developing something new, and buying a consumer product. The rocket engine which cost 20 billion for the first one is available "off the shelf" for 200,000 today. Same for "space rated" electronics, valves, cameras, etc. It's perfectly feasable to get a reliable payload working today for very little. It probably won't, however, do anything very innovative, because doing innovative requires high precision equipment which costs a lot on earth. The equipment also has to survive the takeoff, which is another matter.
A lot of people frown on cheap satellites because what the expensive ones are paying for is in large part reliability, long life, and accessories like the ability to de-orbit at the end of its working life. If NASA started to put up loads of cheap satellites with an unknown, but short, working life and no ability to deorbit we'd be on their backs in a minute accusing them of creating space junk, so why are we applauding it here? Yes, it's great that the satellite is working, but lets keep the eyes on the ball. Cheap satellites increase the hazard for everyone else, and that's where my patience stops.
This is all well and good. But I'm pretty sure you can't buy radiation hardened components off the shelf. The satellite will probably function perfectly well until the first decent solar flare. , after that, all bets are off.
A large proportion of the cost of space borne systems is taken up by the radiation hardening. Both the microchips themselves, and the support circuitry, need to be hardened against the random bit changes, and the long term physical degradation caused by radiation.
The lesson that small budgets do not need to restrict your ambitions. Indeed, large budgets seem to constipate ambition. Small disposable satellites are a wonderful idea. Cheap communications can revolutionise societies. On a global scale the potential is... big.
Somewhere there are groups of people figuring out how to lower that launch cost from $100m to $1m.
My blog
Man, new term for space junk. One that just rolls off the lips.
SPace jUNK.
SPUNK.
'Roger that Houston, I have a visual on SPUNK. Taking evasive manuevers.'
The first message relayed through the satellite came several hours later from an amateur radio user in Qatar in the Middle East.
The text was 'Mail the merchandise now'.
I bet the CIA are loving that.
Hey, I have an idea:
Fly more rockets using all that computer and electronics skill for cool hacks in guidance and control maybe even with some rocket races and some rocket designs that can use the guys in high performance automotive shops to lower cycle times on design and development.
Seastead this.
Man, you should get like 100 sleeping pills and do us all a favour.
Well, all I could say is it's a very cool project. I am happy for those who had success.
To the argument that it could be zapped by a solar flare.. heck man, we already have bigger birds that get fried by the same thing.
I wonder how much those rockets cost, as that seems to be the method to put em up.
I remember getting interested in this kind of stuff when I was in elementry school Back then it was all about the future space shuttle and what it would look like and this and that.
With what at least the first 100 missions being military missions, and me hitting my teen years, I lost all interest in science. (I had it in my blood when I was in diapers eating hamburger and corn watching them land on the moon though.)
A thing like this could do us good. It could get me interested in science again. I never liked college much, they just don't seem to have common sense about reality and the real world. Maybe the younger generation will get their youthful imaginations inspired by projects like this. Even to teach them about electronics, transmitters, receivers, microwave, and a little common sense physics could do this country some good. For one thing I would hope they start teaching American History again, instead of requiring all these other (I won't say stupid) non-american history. I am sick of the liberals and the tenyear professors who push their agenda on people. (I hated that crap!)
Remember one day these kids grow up, if they can't think for themselves, engineer a radioshack surface mount CB radio, or at least know how to repair it, or create or fix older stuff (ahh I hated the day surface mount came), I think we are screwed as a country. All the lawyers and laws, and junk that has passed lately is just dumbing down our children and ourselves, and were setting ourselves up to be a brain dead slave society who gives away all our constitutional rights, unless something changes with the education. (There is no accountability in government and that needs to change!)
At one time I used to spend as much as 500 dollars a week at Radio Shack, for electronic parts (not gear and stereos duh.)
But you know another person that I agree with (in part) is Wayne Green (I don't agree about the "we haven't been to the moon." part.) I do agree with what he says about getting our children interested in ham. We really as a society need to think, and encourage children to think and create, and stop making them pay for it.(legally) Let them do what they want, guide them, but don't force them into loosing that innocence that spawns the unlimited energy and creativity they have. Seems like I am harping on this a lot, but I already see things I do not like happening in this country.
So hey Naval Academy midshipmen, Radio Shack, well job done. I come to attention, and I give you an AirForce Salute!
On the topic of cutting edge vs everyday.
/184lb, Low earth orbit), compared to what it cost then?
Anyone got an estimate of how much it would cost to launch Sputnik today (83kg
For 50,000$ I recon I could build one too. http://members.fortunecity.com/melo1/
But wouldn't it be grand if we made it all run on LUNIX?
"Solar panels costing $20,000 apiece? The students used the panels that power emergency phones in deserts and national parks. Cost: $25 each."
And people ask why nasa runs over buget so often.
Cruise TT
Instead of a $50,000 antenna system, the group used a metal tape measure.
This statement is misleading. The metal tape measure is a toy compared to a well designed NASA antenna system. The transmitter on the Cassini space probe uses only 20 watts of power to transmit a signal from Saturn to Earth. This is most likely less than one third of the power used by a single light bulb illuminating the room you are currently in.
Don't get me wrong, the USNA team accomplished an amazing feat with their satellite, but we must keep things in perspective.
The real problem is 2fold :
How long will it work ? (1-5-10 years ?)
Will it work long enough to compensate the shipping price (1K$ / pound...)
But I haven't seen anything on shielding this sat...
which means the first Solar blast will fry it into oblivion...
So maybe it shouldn't cost 500K$, but for the price you are certain it WILL work...
Now, if this design proves faithfull, we can put some more Energy in "Cheap" Orbital rockets 8)
It takes 40+ muscles to frown, but only four to extend your arm and bitchslap the motherfucker
I would love to see pictures and/or the proccess they went through to build this amazing thing.
Gene
Think "below the magnetosphere" and all will become clear.
cannot take care of 8)
...
What, you don't have the technology ? I thought you americans where the masters of the universe
Well, seems more like SpaceBalls than Starwar
One thing this article fails to mention is how much it actually cost to get this thing into space..
I know the government do some projects, however I don't know the specifics, for schools/education environments.. Saw something on slash a while back on this.. But sure, this device may have cost 1/10th the cost of a full NASA satellite, but the launching costs would have been the same, which in all reality is probably more than the cost of the proper version satellite in the first place!
"Never let the truth get in the way of a good story..."
"This satellite has already surprised us," Smith said, "and it will probably continue to."
:)
Is he saying "I wouldn't be surprised if this satellite surprises us again"?
-- If no truths are spoken then no lies can hide --
Yeah, but did they have to give their name & phone number to RadioShack to buy those parts?
Where all this really matters is with the next generation of engineers, scientists and inventors entering college in the next few years. They are the ones that will benefit from this type of experimentation. Not only will students be able to get valuable hands on experience about real world engineering, but they will get others interested in the field. Developments like these bring exotic technologies down to earth and show students they can do something really challenging. With so many posts on /. about burning out, boring classes, and disillusionment, this may bring in a breath of fresh air.
The down side of having a lot of students launching small satellites is it polutes space and makes the job of tracking dangerous objects more difficult for NASA. All of these developments aren't free, because there are a lot of other financial, political and environmental concerns attached to satellites.
Don't forget the mold, mildew and condensation that plauged the place and made everything unreliable. The US Navy has extensive experience with such systems for submarines and though I've heard of smells I've never heard of anything like MIR's problems. Why use something second rate?
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Cheap is good because it spreads out the knowledge base. We want to get at resources beyond our planet sooner than later. This will help.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Why don't we get these undergrads, Martha Stewart, and the writers of MacGyver together to improvise a working missile-defense shield?
It'll be done on time and under-budget, it'll coordinate with all the other satellites, and it'll be made solely of a shoe polish tin, duct tape, a foot of rope, and a thumbtack!
Want Linux games? HERE.
Do you think they included a CueCat on the satellite that Radio Shack built? It could be 230 miles above you right now, stealing your privacy! Frightening.
There goes the price of metal tape measures...
...is innovative? Yes, they do some innovative stuff. They also do a lot of grunt work (carting satellites up, carrying experiments around, etc). Could the grunt work be done more cheaply?
324006
it's also not good for computer equipment. there was a graphite company in the city where i grew up. i used to work in the local computer store there. they would bring in these computers that were doing odd things. when you took them apart you could see plack paths where the fans had been pusing the air. since graphite is a conductor (although weak) it would short out misc stuff in the boxes.
-- john
to giving them you name and phone number. If they give you an argument, walk out.
If you really want to be devious, look up the phone number of that Radio Shack before shopping.
Try 800.328.7448, it's one you see on the back of some trucks.
Hams and researchers have been using the material used in tape measures (including sometimes using tape measures from the local hardware store) since at least the AMSAT Microsats (1991, IIRC).
For low gain end-fed whips and dipoles for HF up to 70cm, they make great antennas - self deploying, keep the correct shape, and CHEAP.
NASA has used similar materials WHERE IT IS APPROPRIATE. I would not, for example, use a tape measure dipole for an S-band system for high data-rate communications from Mars. I might use it as a UHF ground-link antenna on a surface rover.
Now I bet the next episode of Junk Yard Wars will be building a satellite out of old car parts and tin cans.
Let's be honest with ourselves here... NASA is not as costly as it is because of the innovations it comes up with but rather because at its heart NASA is a political beast. I give you the Space Shuttle as evidence. This 30 year old technology costs about $470 millon dollars to launch one shuttle, one time. That cost skyrockets to 1.7 BILLON dollars if you factor in R&D (although R&D costs are spread out over subsequent missions). There are _far_ more cost effective means of getting things into space so why doesn't NASA use them? Easy... The shuttle program is popular and very well known by the public.
Does anyone else remember all the savings that we were told were going to be realized because of the shuttle's ability to reuse it's solid rocket boosters and the orbiter? Unfortunately, quite the inverse occurred. Costs ballooned and NASA didn't even blink. In fact until relatively recently (the past 10 years or so) NASA hasn't even seriously tried to find a replacement for the aging shuttle fleet. In the eyes of congress NASA is just another special interest looking for their turn at the budgetary feeding trough and quite frankly that's how NASA acts. This makes NASA do things that doesn't make sense economically but make lots of sense politically. While this does explain their behaivor it does not change the fact that NASA is wasteful with the money that they are given. NASA does cool geeky stuff and has come up with a lot of innovations but given the amount of cash they're given one would think they could do more. Looking at where we are technologically and watching how NASA burns through cash I'd say there is a pretty compelling arguement for pushing efforts for privatized space flight even harder than we have until now.
G. Washington on Government "it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
PCSAT works. "Survivable"? That depends. The core of the spacecraft electronics are two off-the-shelf Kantronics TNCs. They have reset a few times, and I have no idea if the ROMs were replaced with rad-hard units or not. Time will tell how well they hold up in the space radiation and thermal environment.
There are a number of successful amateur spacecraft using commercial chips and RF components. All operate in LEO where they receive some radiation protection from the Earth's magnetic field.
NASA using similar components and design techniques in a low cost LEO mission may make sense. The same techniques in a high-risk or deep space mission would be foolhardy.
Take a look at the history of AMSAT and Amateur Radio satellites. This whole concept (tape measure, off-the shelf components, hitch-hiking on the boosters) was done by amateur radio operators in the 60's. Many of those satellites were operational for years.
those superguns that were highlighted during the US / Iraq war? IIRC, they could launch objects into low orbit? Or do I just have my facts messed up? Imagine a casing hardened against the G-forces, and precise firing? Cheap launches baby!
where've we all heard this one before?
athlon vs. pentium
ati vs. nvidia
and now tape measures vs. rated antennas.
no good will come of this one, either.
i'm amazed that i survived - an airbag saved my life.
So you can imagine what success we might have at the local Canadian Tire and with $80000 in CT money
Isn't it bad enough we have NASA crap in space?
Now we have Radio Shack junk up there, too?
It's easy to stand out when the general level of competence is so low.
Academy students and professors hoped the satellite would work for a month, given that many of the parts they used have no history of operating in space. But since the satellite was launched from Kodiak, Alaska, on Sept. 30, it has shown no signs of degrading, and the group is hoping the satellite will work at least another year and maybe another five.
Good thing they used the highest grade of duct tape available, eh?
Space astronaut Vassily Argonof from Russia confirmed that the SpaceStation Alpha has been experiencing technical difficulties, but added, "do not worry, it is nothing a little _duck-tape_ cannot fix."
How much of their savings were made by using parts from free CueCats and Flashlights?
Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
What would happen if NASA does reduce spending and the growth of the frontier of space travel becomes stunted accordingly?
A decade or so back, when several startups were trying to develop private enterprise launch systems, they couldn't get the aerospace manufacturers to sell them components (space-rated cryogenic-liquid valving, guidance components, etc.). One manufacturer's rep said (in confidence) that they had been told by NASA administrators that if they sold to the private launch companies they wouldn't sell to NASA again.
So they made do with NON-space rated components and other kludges.
Some of this worked really well. (For instance: The virtual control panel hacked up on a Mac was a LOT cheaper and more functional than the roomfull of one-of control equipment it replaced, much to the amazement of the NASA engineers who watched the engine test.)
But some of it was a disaster. (For instance: The liquid oxygen valve on a hybrid engine failed in a mode that created the second worst possible disaster {behind guidance failure} for a hybrid engine vehicle: It stuck at 10% during engine startup. Too little thrust to get off the pad, but they couldn't turn it off so the rocket burned itself up. The test was a failure and the company was unable to raise money for a second try and folded, taking the safest known rocket technology down with it.)
"What would happen if NASA does reduce spending...?" Well, for starters they wouldn't HAVE the kind of clout with suppliers to deny components to the private market, while the suppliers would have a big drop in sales until they found other customers.
It could be the best thing ever to happen to space technology.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Or were the reports of Northern Lights seen as far south as San Diego false?
Hmmm....seems to me that the satellite is still working just fine....
Following the link "proof of Osama's guilt. [mmm.com.au]" in the previous posting casts a vote in an online poll.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
The Kantronics have micro-controllers in them as does the GPS. And I'm sure there are a few more embedded in other places like the power control. And even if you did these functions in ASICS that lack CPUs that doesn't mean those logic gates are any more immune radiation. It all depends on the IC process.
Then the designers would have to contend with accelerations in the 100's of G's range.
A hundred Gs is diddly-squat for a decent electronic hardware design. You get a lot more than that dropping your hifi onto the floor from desk high.
You won't launch any PEOPLE that way. (You'd have to submerge them in liquid and debubble their lungs, digestive system, and maybe their inner ears.) But for MIL spec electronics it's a walk in the park.
"Proximity fuses" on anti-aircraft shells in world war II were electronics using GLASS TUBES!
This isn't rocket science! B-)
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
The project's page here has pictures and links.
For the curious, here's Lockheed' page about the Athena rocket.
karma is for the weak >)
What the AC said. In addition to 1/r^2, there's a dielectric constant that air has that dissipates the wave's energy.
(I'm not sure how big the dissipation in the air is compared to the effect of 1/r^2 though... I'm pretty sure that all the deep space probes get picked up by the DSN, not by the retransmission satellites around the Earth.)
Unrelated question: How does the positioning system for the Cassini antenna work? For other deep space probes, are there backup antennas that are not directional? How likely is it that the positioning system for the antenna fails and then there's no way for the probe to contact Earth?
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Let's not forget about PANSAT, an earlier success by the Navy. And it, too, uses Amateur Radio frequencies to communicate. It went up in 1998 on STS-95 with John Glenn.
http://www.findU.com/cgi-bin/pcsat.cgi
this is the best post so far!
The company I work for has started giving these pens out as "1-year anneversary gifts". Embossed with the company logo, too!
By the way, ----- GREAT ARTICLE !!! ------ (see the above link or click here
I really like your Rocket A Day Keeps the High Costs Away article. It makes a strong case.
Some private/corporate groups are developing the launchers and hoping, though -Burt Rutan's EZ Rocket plane (xcor.com) and Pioneer Astronautics at pioneerastro.com.
What I hope for is NASA will get back to doing what it does best - research and development. It's not supposed to be a commercial venture. The entrenched interests of Boeing and Lockheed are in keeping the shuttle flying when we really need Big Dumb Booster(s).
NASA should stick with engineering studies that like characterizing components (studying all parameters and testing the heck out of different configurations). Example: turbocompressor pump designs (needed for rocket engines), high temperature and pressure effects on LOX, kerosene, ethanol, isopropyl alcohol, methoanol, etc. as fluids going through straight and bendy pipes of various sizes, looking at fluid breakdowns, viscous effects, etc. That way, engineers from rocket-building companies don't have to do repeat work and can just build the darn things.
my five cents, anyway. Again, Great article.
Unitarian Church: Freethinkers Congregate!
Look for N7EKG on the list of heard stations...I'm also on the ISS list, too
-- Ed Carp, N7EKG erc@pobox.com PGP KeyID: 0x0BD32C9B What I'm up to: http://intuitives.mine.nu
Surprisingly nobody noticed that AMSAT worldwide has launched more than 30 satellites in the last 30 years which only cost 1/10th sometimes even only 1/100th of a commercial satellite..
And yes, the metal tape antenna was also invented by AMSAT and used in their OSCAR satellites..
researching said toilet. Just add a little fraction of that sum to spacemen's salary and they will do that procedure again and again...
could to it for much much less.
Table-ized A.I.
Well, not really, we ARE one of the top engineering schools in the country. Just surprising that midshipmen study :). Also, Radio Shack? Wow! I think I'd have mail ordered them first.
Class of '01
I'm determined to reclaim my karma. Now, if I can only find a groundbreaking article and something witty to say....