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French Government Online-Why Isn't the U.S.?
DullTrev asks: "Looks like the French are pushing forward once again with their online government plans. The BBC News site has this article about the new portal about to be launched. The article says the portal 'will give every citizen a personal internet portal allowing them to pay taxes online, register a child for a state school, or be reminded that their regulatory car inspection is due in a month's time'. The UK government has had this portal up for a while, and are steadily expanding their services. This is all within the EU government systems that are (not surprisingly) encouraging online government all over the place. How does this kind of thing compare to the US?"
Simple answer: Because we're an order of magnitude bigger. More population. More beaurocracy (yes, I know it's mis-spelled). More variables. Instead of having 30 million personal pages listing the same information, we need well over a hundred million pages, with different senators, different information, more extensive tax data... not to mention, someone has to decide who's in charge of all this. Does the IRS have to run the site? Who else would?
Population of US: 250 million
Population of France: 50 million
And France has nothing like states' rights that the US has to cope with that makes us a patchwork of sometimes conflicting laws.
The problem with doing this in the US is that we have states. Most of the time when the average citizen deals with governments he's dealing with state or local government, not federal. For instance, your car inspection, property taxes, birth certificates, death certificates, licenses all these are given out by your own state. People don't really deal with the federal government much. So the problem is setting up a centralized webpage to mirror the decentralized government regulations we have. Some states do things differently this would make it complex to set up a page like this in the US.
The biggest reason why there isn't a national portal for most of this stuff is that many of the functions are a matter of state law.
Car inspections, school registrations etc are not federal government functions.
Also I think civil liberties minded folks would be a little concerned about a centralized data base that had all this information in it. Besides the potential for official and unofficial abuse, you just know someone would come up with the idea to raise money by selling the database.
I'm sorry, but the potential problems like to arise from poor security in such a system make it a thing to be avoided in my books. Considering the sympathies of the current administration, I don't think we have to stress ourselves out to figure out what company would get the contract to implement the system. When we can be confident the system will have adquate security, sure ... but not now.
He doesn't know that clicking on an e-mail attachment (that seems to come from secretary@dutchgovernment.nl) could let a trojan loose on his system, one that becomes active AFTER authentication with smartcard/iris scan, one that changes keystrokes but doesn't show that to the user.
Doing things like this is acceptable for companies, because they are profit based and take risks all the time. For governments, it is totally unacceptable that this is possible, but unfortunately they have spent literally millions of euro's on pilots and can't reverse the process. Somebody has to make clear to them that the internet + computers == not a secure infrastructure, but well ... is there anybody who will listen?
My apologies for my bad english, I'm Dutch.
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If code was hard to write, it should be hard to read
I can't believe what I just read.
:(
I'm french, I live in France, I pay my taxes in France, and I can tell you that French Government has a really bad policy about internet. Taxes Paying Portal exists, but many many many errors occured this year, and many many many people had to pay penalties, and some even paid their taxes twice !
Same thing about french government putting laws online, 6 months after they were voted.
Believe me, French Government is not online, and French Government is not internet-compliant
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nico
Nico-Live
Considering there's an overhead to everything, it'd actually be easier for the USA than for france. If you want excuses, blame your government to spend money on... Well... on stuffing their pockets.
Who's voting? Me? No... You are... Blame it on yourselves...
I got karma to burn, mod me down into oblivion if you want, but you(collectively) are still responsible for what's bad (as well as what's good) so don't start saying "yeah, but others have an easier time" and move your arse.
One shall speak only if what one has to say is more beautiful than silence
I will summarize as quickly as possible:
1.) It is on-line. Various federal agencies and states have on-line system. Massachusettes has a nice one. Remember: United STATES. We aren't kidding about that. I can pay federal and state taxes on-line. No good reason to do that but I can do it.
2.) The government doesn't do as much in the States thus much of what the European Govs provide is provided in the US by private corporations. The private corps have on-line systems. In fact, they have had them before the internet was popular. My Electric company had a bbs years ago. My Phone company deducted directly from my bank account using the old bank networks etcetera.
3.) Scale matters. The United States is emmense. There are 285 million people now and we are growing faster than some developing nations now in terms of population. I had some European friends in Massachusettes once that asked how many hours it would take to visit Texas by car.
I had to laugh. How many DAYS would it take just to hit the border of Texas which itself is the size of Germany.
Thus, getting 50 states to merge their already existing net systems into a federal system when the state systems have been working for years seems a rather daunting amount of effort for little gain.
In fact, I honestly don't think this would work well in other European nations such as Italy. Even in Italy things are more decentralized than you would think.
There isn't one way of doing this and it isn't all that important actually. We think the net is all important but in reality it just leaverages the existing technology and systems we have.
I think the ATM has changed my life more than the web. Money coming out of walls? What a wonderful country!
And that profusion of governmental entities in the US seems deliberate. In the US, limiting the power of government through disorder, confusion, and lack of integration is a way of life. The French believe in bureaucracy and at least superficial order and rationality. I can't really say which is "better", but it does explain some of the differences.
I know its too late for anyone to read this but I guess I'll point it out. While all of your say size and complexity of the US government is the issue, I must disagree.
The Fact is that the majority of voters in the US don't care about the government being online. Congress doesn't push for online government because %90 of the voters don't care. Corporations on the other hand with their lobbyists, have pushed the IRS online. If you paid taxes like the corporations do, you would want it to be as efficient as possible so you wouldn't have to pay as many accountants.
Again its not size or complexity, its an issue of who wants it to be done. Remember American Slashdotters, you are a minority if you do everything online. Just because you do it online doesn't mean the rest of America does.
Slashdot is an anagram for Has Dolts, and I am Dolt number 468543
You can also pay your federal income taxes online and that's really the only time US citizens deal with the federal gov't (at least that's all I've ever done with the federal gov't). Maybe you need to open your eyes and ears a bit before asking why the US gov't isn't "online."
Some of the things mentioned that this French government site can do are either things shared between the state and the feds, or just aren't mentioned in the Constitution and rest solely with the state. For example:
"pay taxes online"
If I recall correctly, you can pretty much do that already with your federal income taxes already through the IRS website, but it isn't the job of the IRS to collect state income taxes, or any other taxes levied by the state. Talk to your comptroller, or at the very least go to the website of your state government. For me, I'd have to find the Louisiana website for information on paying Louisiana income and property taxes.
"register a child for a state school"
Beyond those offered by the military for their dependants and the five federal academies, I don't think there is such a thing as a federal school. Elementary and high schools are usually the responsibility of the local government (county or city), while they only have to answer to state guidelines and standards. If you want to register your kid to attend local schools, talk to the local school board. They're at your county seat, not at Washington D.C.
"reminded that their regulatory car inspection is due in a month's time"
For commercial vehicles, while there are federal rules and regulations for your vehicle, it is up to the state to enforce them. As for personal vehicles, my title, registration and license plate are from the State of Louisiana, and the brake tag I got from St. Charles Parish. Frankly, I wouldn't want to have to deal with a city almost a thousand miles away for something as simple as my car. And if neither of those two governments provide what you're looking for, the only think you might be justified in complaining to the US Congress about is that they haven't set aside any money for state and local governments to set up such services.
So why can't we interact with the US federal government in the same way? At least 90% of the interactions your average citizen has with the federal government are with either the IRS or the USPS. Both of these organizations have very well-done, informative and useful websites. For anything else I suggest you check with your state website and/or see if your local government maintains a website.
I don't really want people to perceive the government as "easy to use". I'd rather have people see it as it is, a burden. Similarly, I'd rather have income taxes not withheld from each paycheck so that people have to pay the IRS each month and realize where their 20,000 dollars a year goes. Then, perhaps, people will want to reduce their tax burden and save us from an ever expansive state.
1- Minitel is actually a long-term drag on France. As another poster in this thread noted the backward condition of the telephone network worked to France's advantage when it did upgrade during the "digital age". Conversely Minitel is a drag on adoption of the internet and use of the French language on it.
2- There seems to be a consistent thread of anti-religious bias coming from French posts. It appears there is an active antagonism being taught by the French school system equating religion to ignorance. I would urge those who have been indoctrinated in this way to throw their own blinders off. Religious belief is not necessarily an impediment to rational thought, education, or enlightenment. The comment that "Republican ideals naturally spurns religion as something which enslaves humanity" smacks more of a Communist tract or the Reign of Terror than anything truly Republican.
3- The American university system rewards individual achivement as much as any in the world. Scholarships are available from every institution and the cream of the crop are recruited heavily to the top schools- which aren't generally state sponsored schools by the way. If you're good enough you'll not pay a dime and likely have a stipend as well. Yes, being a capitalistic society a space is made for big donors- but those big donors make available thousands of scholarships available to the best and the brightest.
4- Considering the constraints placed upon us by our relatively light population density, I would say that America gets more bang for the taxpayer dollar for government services than any country excepting Australia (which is largely funded by taxing its natural resources). Our infrastructure is highly dependend upon the policies of the local state and municipalities. Many American cities have services that can favorably compare with any European city.
Many non-americans are as myopic about us as we are about them. Those of us from either group who have lived in both America and internationally tend to have a balanced view of the whole thing. America *as a whole* and *considering its unique geography and demographic challenges* has created an unmatched and dynamic society that is the most technologically advanced, economically powerful, and politically responsive in the world. Many other countries can match or pass us in individual categories, especially those with monocultures. I really, really wish that many Europeans would be happy with their own successes and strengths and not need to demean America to make themselves feel superior, it gets old, quick. Yes many American yahoos get their jollies by baiting internationals, but please don't make it so easy on them.