Slashdot Mirror
Which of the Armed Forces is Better for IT-Types?
tang asks: "As a Computer Science major who will be graduating this year, I wanted to know the experiences of any slasdotters who have been/are in the military. I'm exploring my options after college, and wouldn't mind serving my country. The question is, which branch of the armed forces? Physical shape is no problem, I just wanted to know which branch would have the most use for a computer programmer. The army seems to have only slightly interesting computer positions, while the navy has some better ones. Will any particular branch give me better training for when I get out?" We've already argued the point of whether it's better to go to college or sign-up, so if one had their heart set on joining, which service is better if you are planning on a career in IT, afterwards?
Didn't the Navy use NT?
You can sign up and fix their computers every other week...
While I was in the Air Force and liked many things about the experience (I think that they are the least obnoxiously uptight of the services) what little of the Navy IT system impressed me. I know everyone is going to point out the NT-on-a-ship thing but that story is mostly bogus anyway.
Anyway, what little I had to deal with Navy-built systems I found several examples of them being better designed (from an IT perspective) than our own Air Force stuff. My experience with the AF IT system as an ADPE manager was pretty horrible. The people I met weren't very bright or well trained, constantly understaffed (they only had 12 people, including networking, server, desktop and manager people trying vainly to support over 1500 desktop systems all over base) and had very poor tools (who's bright idea was basing the entire IT infrastructure on MS Outlook and NT (even for secure messaging) anyway!?!!!). The worst part was that they were completely incapable of supporting desktop Windows users, they didn't even have a helpdesk, and everyone had to fend for themselves (including software and hardware purchasing.) Unless things have changed you would find the constant disaster very frustrating.
Oh, and I know everyone already told you this but Don't Trust Recruiters. When they aren't lying to you because they honestly don't know something they are lying to hide the ugly truth. If they tell you that they can't get your name into a slot for a certain job, implore you to select "Open/General" as a carreer and hope for the best don't sign! Get it in writing that your name is in a slot for the job you want before you sign a commitment. Don't cry too hard if the slot closes after you sign, shit happens, but at least they should try. Unfortunately the military isn't going to have you sitting on your butt waiting for annother slot to open up so you will probably be reclassed into something that they need at the time.
-- Remember: Wherever you go, there you are!
I don't want to put technology in the hands of politicans whose only objective is to win the next election.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Whilst we might consider the spook's as the [enemy]
I can't speak for how things are today, but I know several good IT/IS guys that came out of the Air Force with decent training (and in one case a Master's degree in Math that he earned while in the Air Force). Like someone else said, it's the "least demanding" of the services, if you care about that sort of thing.
If I had to pick between Navy and Air Force, I'd consider my lifestyle. In the Navy there is a decent chance you'll get assigned to a ship at some point. If you're single, that can be somewhat cool. Go see the world, one port at a time. If you've got a family, in the Air Force you're going to get to come home almost every night to your wife & kids. You might be living in base housing in a foreign country, but at least you'll see them.
If you do this, be very careful with the recruiter(s). They will verbally assure you that you'll go into the MOS you want, then you'll get assigned to some crap that isn't useful out in the civilian world. I know a power generation guy and a communications tech trying to get MCSE certifications so they can get a civilian job. Get everything in writing.
in any of the services, you might get a guaranteed job as a computer person, and end up working on a computer system that's older than you are. or you might end up pushing buttons. or you might end up doing a job that's directly related to being a civilian. there are no guarantees; the *only* thing a recruiter can guarantee you is that you'll get a certain career field (and only then if you have it *in writing, on the contract you sign*). also consider that many tech jobs are contracted out to civilians, so as a uniformed person you may not get to do the fun stuff anyway. (I'm not trying to talk you out of signing up, just trying to point out that the commercials you see on tv are not necessarily the way things are once you get there.)
note tha if you're going to be an enlisted person, that CS degree won't do anything but look good on the wall, at least to start with. you might ask the recruiters about commissioning opportunities.
another possible option you might consider is the reserve / national guard. being a part timer would allow you to get a foothold as a civilian IT person, plus get some good training and benefits as a military person. later on, if you decide you prefer the military, you can always switch over to active duty status. talk to a guard or reserve recruiter.
good luck, whatever you decide.
Karma only matters to me now and zen.
One guy I worked with was considering branches, so he went into several recruters. One asked him to sign a health release form so they could do a background check to see if he would be elligable. He did without reading it. Turns out that wasn't a release form is was an agreement to enter the service, and there was no way out.
I don't know if there is any accualy health release forms, but make sure you don't sign anything without understanding it.
Envy my 5 digit Slashdot User ID!
Although I left after four years, the Army holds many perks that are often overlooked.
1. They will pay off your college loans while you are in. The unbelievable weight that gets off of you is staggering. Although the pay is not great, if you include the roughly $15,000/yr that they pay off, it ain't shabby.
2. Promotion is much faster than in other services. That means that, if you are single, you will get out of a double room that much faster or, if married, get a larger house.
3. This may not sound like a pro, but: the competition is less severe. I mean, the AF and Navy have all the best and brightest, so, in the Army, if you aren't lazy and don't mind running, you will stand out immediately as someone who knows something. You will be a larger fish in a smaller pond.
4. If you are perfectly clean, you will probably get that NSA or whoever job anyway, because they are all joint service staffed.
5. It's a lot more sexy to say you program AND shoot AND blow sh*t up.
My experience: in four years, I learned two languages, got out of debt, payed off student loans, finished my degree, AND got C4 training, 2 weeks sport climbing training, worked with SF, and fired virtually every weapon Spec Forces had. Not a bad way to spend four years.
Email me if you want to talk more
Put identity in the browser.
If you're getting a degree in C.S., why not work for the NSA? Your current skills will almost defenitly be useful, and you'll get to work on top secret stuff that nobody else knows about.
Seriously, the services have nothing to offer IT-education wise. Don't join for that!
Here's my rundown of the 5 branches, and a disclaimer: I was in the Navy, 72-76, on a carrier mostly in Japan and around the far East, and had a great time.
Navy, and at sea, for an adventure none of the others can match. That old slogan really was true (It's not just a job, it's an adventure). Pick a rating which goes to sea on destroyers (radioman, quartermaster, supply, etc) and transfer after two years to a carrier. Get one Pacific ship and the other Mediterranean.
Navy, shore based. A joke. What's the point of joining a sea service and not going to sea?
Navy, if married. Forget it. Sea duty ain't for newlyweds.
Marines. If you want to join the MILITARY, this is it. Again, make sure you at least get one sea tour.
Air Force. I used to think the Air Force would be better technical education wise, but have talked to enough people who knew both and said otherwise. So I personally think the Air Force is just a ho-hum choice; nothing marks it special.
Army. Ditto; nothing to make it special.
Coast Guard. The only one which actually does anything every day other than train. If you want the satisfaction of doing something real every day, like search and rescue, this is it. A plus for many is short sea stays and stateside duty.
To sum it up, if you want to do something you will always remember and will never be able to do after you're married and settled down, join the Navy and make double damned sure you go to sea all four years. Do it for the adventure, not for what you might learn. If you think you might want to make a career of the service, join the Coast Guard. If you simply like military pomp, join the Marines. If you want to join a boring corporation, join the Air Force or Army.
You will never get another chance like those four years, so make the most of it AS AN ADVENTURE.
Think about it: the military has no use for programmers or hardware engineers. That's what industry does. The military is about bodies and weapons, not about IT. Any military job is there to support the guys in trenches.
Infuriate left and right
I wanted to see the world, travel to exotic lands, meet interesting people and kill them. I wanted to be the first kid on my block with a confirmed kill. - Joker
"Full Metal Jacket"
The branch you select depends on what you are looking for: job training & experience that's usable in civilian life, college money, quick promotion, quality of life & working conditions, or adventure.
If you are after the adventure factor, the Marines have the market on macho bullshit pretty well wrapped up. The Marines' reputation speaks for itself. Remember that the USMC's philosophy is that a Marine is a Rifleman first, and a $WHATEVER second, and plan accordingly -- don't be suprised if you spend more time doing grunt work and PT than you spend doing your nominal job. Probably not the best choice if you value physical comfort or independent thought. From an IT perspective, the USMC is probably the worst choice you can make.
The Navy likes to bill itself as high-tech, and while they do have pretty good training for basic electronics, general IT training (that would be applicable to a civilian job) is marginal at best. Quality of life and working conditions are the worst of any of the branches, however, particuarly if you are single and enlisted. Promotions can be pretty rapid if you stay out of trouble and are reasonably smart; the people you are competing against are (ahem) generally not of the highest calibre. Based on my personal observations (I did several TDY's to Navy facilities) and the experiences of family members who served in the USN, I would have to say that you should avoid the Navy like the plague.
The Army is the biggest branch, and probably has the most choices, career wise. Living & working conditions are (on average) a bit better than the Navy, but not nearly as good as the Air Force. They can give the Marines a pretty good run for the money in the Macho Military Bullshit department when they put their minds to it, but this is minimized if you are in a non-combatant job. Army IT is generally pretty close to what you'd find in the corporate sector, except the users are dumber and will usually outrank you.
The Air Force is probably the best choice from an IT perspective. The working and living conditions are the best of any of the branches, and the Macho Military Bullshit is barely noticable once you are out of training. The downside is that it's harder to make rank than any of the other services. IMHO, the USAF is the best choice if you want to prepare yourself for an IT career in the corporate world. (It's a pretty good choice if you are planning on a military career -- they are more family-friendly than any of the other branches). My experience was exactly the opposite of the parent poster's: I too had to work on some Navy systems and I found them far worse than ours. The people I worked with were generally top-notch. (although I was in a software development shop, not lan & desktop support)
Definately heed the advice in the parent post: DO NOT TRUST RECRUITERS. They have a quota to fill, and they could care less what happens to you once you sign up. Enlisting with "Open/General" as your job choice is like putting a "kick me" sign on your back. However, at least in the Air Force, if you have good ASVAB and EDPT scores you have a very good chance of getting an IT job. The EDPT -- electronic data processing test -- is (or at least was in '89) the test you must take to qualify for any computer-related job. The higher your score on that test, the more likely it is you'll get an IT job -- they have a very hard time finding enough people who can pass the test to fill all the available slots. The EDPE doesn't test any technical computer knowledge -- it's actually an IQ test (identifying patterns, sequences, etc). To prepare, do tests like the Mensa Workout.
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
Now that I've tried to dissuade you from active duty, consider the guard/reserve. You get much of the perks of active duty: tuition assistance for grad/prof school, management/leadership experience, a broader technical view, some free training which may/may not be useful and the military experience. For me at least, it's a win-win situation. You'll probably want to look into commissioning programs for college grads in any particular services since you're probably missed the boat on ROTC.
As to which service, I know that both the Air Force and the Army always need more technical people. (The Navy probably does too, but it is my duty to dissuade you from having anything to do with them.) The AF and Navy use more COTS(commercial of-the-shelf) technology than the Army, but we're picking up more new toys every year. As information tecnology starts percolating into lower levels and field units the Army may soon be a more high-tech organization than other services. The Army also has the advantage that it's fairly easy to get a non-active duty commission and you'll almost certainly be leading a platoon or running a fairly large staff shop as soon as you get done with training.
Do Army/Navy/USAF/marines IT staff go through basic training if they come in as an officer?
Are programmers issued rifles?
And how about the corps of engineers?
In particular, how to choose between the Guard and Reserve. I've heard Guard recruiters claim you're less likely to be sent overseas, but I'm sceptical.
The Coast Guard is more to the point. They're more of a public safety entity than a military service, but they have an impressive history.
I spent ten years in the Navy and learned a lot of the IT I know now while in, there was lots of opportunity to tinker with the small scale LAN on board ship and lots of practice on desktop systems that were crashed by the proverbial drunken sailor.
tweako, ergo sum I Tweak, Therefore I Am
As a current Navy IT Officer, here's the current deal. Note that this may vary somewhat from the "past" since this is the most rapidly changing career field in the Navy. The Navy stood up the "Information Professional" community about September 1. I am technically not an IP since my intake community (submarines) both pays more and refuses to let me out of the community. However, my "shore duty" is as an IP.
1) With a college degree you should go in as an officer. Period. End of story. You will be very unhappy with your treatment as a junior enlisted person. Even with accelerated advancement to E-4 or E-5 you still will be unhappy. You will spend much of your first two years cleaning and standing relatively menial (but important, nonetheless) watches with minimal computer use. With a college degree you can attend Officer Candidate School.
2) Officers rarely if ever program. They work in IT management, system design and implementation, and contracting. If you want to program see 1) but realize enlisted personnel rarely if ever program (5-10 years down the road). They do a lot of front-line system management and network management though.
3) There is currently no direct method into IP. Either become a surface officer or as an Engineering Duty officer (specializes in IT acquisition as well as shipyard management). Direct accessions are planned in a few years.
4) If what you want is to do the job of a network engineer, programmer, etc. don't join the Navy. The 4+ years of training in surface warfare is not worth it if computers are what you're in for (and equals lots of sea time). There is a large and important role for people with a substantial warfighting background in IT management but that's years down the road (and may not be what the surface force has in mind for you).
Exactly. If you want to help import cocaine into America, sign up with the Cocaine Import Agency. If corporate espionage is your bag, go with the Nationalized Spies from America. Don't waste your time with any of the four branches. They're grunts anyway.
Make sure you read what everyone else on this board has posted. Every single anecdote is true.
-request your MOS....get it in writing!
-request a duty station....get it in writing!
-request a school....get it in writing!
In 1990, I got a BS in CompSci. Economy sucked, so did my grades. Decided to go in as an enlisted nuke in the Navy, thought I could easily hack it. Wrong! They don't want you to learn, they want you to memorize. You are not a human being, you are a parrot. Learning comes later.
Navy nuclear power program has a 50% dropout rate. I was one of them. Made it to my fast-attack sub, started qualifying. Even being in the shipyard, where all the shipyard workers perform the work (yeah right!), you still have to stand duty for 36 hours (come in at 7am, go home at 6pm.... the next day) every 3 days. because I was the new guy whose name resembled someone already on the boat (someone who had an uncomplimentary nickname), I got stuck with "oh,version II". had to kick a few asses before they got off my back. see the bullshit I had to put up with?
you have a couple of options:
-officer or enlisted (enlisted get more re-enlistment money but it ain't worth the hassle)
-Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard (CG has _good_ life compared to others, I'd go Navy again but only as officer, then Air Force (soft life))
-nothing says you have to go in as an IT guy. instead, pick an easy job (paper shuffler). then you can study for all the IT stuff you want (probably your best option)
there are lots of good MOS's in the military where there is light duty. a couple are (from my Navy days) Yeoman, Photographers Mate (all those aerial pictures you see of Navy planes), cook (at sea on a submarine, you get your own bunk AND work cook's hours only. ask the other guy here who used to be on sub's. sweeeet duty!)
as you can see, you have a few options open. personally, if I couldn't get my MOS and where I wanted as an officer, I would pick easy job (paper shuffler) as an enlisted man. Let's put it this way, my bro-in-law is an e-9 Personnelman in the Army in D.C. He assigns all the other e-9's in the Army to their duty stations. His words, "...talk about some whiners!".
bottomline. picking a job in the military is like buying a house. you research it THOROUGHLY!
If you decide to take the officer route, this is what you'll experience: Since you indicated you're about to graduate, you'll most likely get your commission through Officer Training School (OTS) at Maxwell AFB, Montgomery, AL. This is your standard 12 week-long drill of marching, PT, getting yelled at, saluting, standing at attention, etcetera.
After gratuating OTS, you'll head off to Basic Communications Officer Training (BCOT), located at Keesler AFB, Biloxi, Miss. Three months long, the best thing about this school is that it's less than an hour from New Orleans. With a CS degree, you will have absolutely no problem with this course. Trust me. After that, you'll be off to your first assignment. The good thing about being a Comm officer is that it's a global specialty, unlike some other fields (especially pilots) that are restricted to a handful of locations.
The Comm and Info career field is huge. You could have a twenty year career and have a completely different job each assigment. This is just an example of some of the jobs I and some of my friends have filled:
Network infrastructure and fiber optics (routers, switches, working with construction crews)
Airfield Comm systems (Mostly radios and specialized Air Traffic Control and guidance systems)
Network Control Centers (care and feeding of server farms)
Satellite systems
Desktop support and Helpdesk management
Combat Comm (Not really combat, this is setting up basic comm systems in a bare field from scratch, living in tents, eating MRE's)
Radar systems
Security (Firewalls, IDS, passwork cracking, assesments, incident response...)
Visual Information (very cool job, get to work with graphic media, photography, etc)
Information Management ('Powerpoint Rangers')
Information Warfare (hacker in a uniform)
As for the other services, I've had some contact with the Navy and Army. If I didn't join the Air Force the Navy would have definitely been my second choice. Those guys are even more dependent on their systems, and it shows in the quality of their personnel.
As for the Army, let me just say those guys should be standing on top of a hill waving semaphore flags. I don't think they could handle anything more complex.
The services offer a 6 month course for people who have already gotten a degree. I forget what its called, but the camp is in GA i think. Anyway, if you are going to join you should get commissioned as an officer, otherwise it is not worth it. And the Air Force has the poshest living environment of the other branches, but you will always be the brunt of many jokes.
Have you considered becoming a defense contractor? The aerospace industry is hurting for programmers right now. Although there is much talk about people being laid off in the sector it is almost all in areas other than computer science, and in the defense sector many programs are actually ramping up.
The Air Force is definitally the best branch for software development... They are after all the main reason that the Software Engineering Institute at Carnegie Mellon developed the Capability Maturity Model of software lifecycle development. All of the literature in the realm of software engneering clearly points to the Air Force as being the major innovator in the sector.
So my advise for you is go work for a major defense contractor and help this country build some really cool new aircraft and weapons systems for the future defense of this nation.
Eh, you're probably right. For the first couple of years of my enslistment I was working out of an Army base in Germany and that sucked. This was circa 1997 and we were still using Unisys i386 machines (souped up!) for the management's desktops. Unisys made a great machine, built like a tank and very expandable but it was still a 386-25 (running Win95, eek!). My next assignment was to a real Air Force Base but the IT shop was as I described, understaffed and clueless, spending all their time trying to piss out 4 alarm fires. It was total chaos. We used some Navy products in our job and they were pretty spiffy, we definately preferred them to our AF equivilants. Maybe I just have a "pasture is greener" syndrome 8^)
-- Remember: Wherever you go, there you are!
First off, if you want to join any service READ ALL CONTRACTS AND MAKE SURE YOU GET ALL PROMISES IN WRITING.
'Cause if you don't you will be screwed over for your job/signing bonus/duty station/length of contract/etc etc etc. The requiters main job is to get warm bodies into boot camp, they qoutas that they have to make every month. Or they will be "in trouble".
Second, do NOT join the Marines ... for IT. If you truely want the MILTARY then go for the Marines. If you want IT go for Navy or Air Force ( and maybe not even AF). The Navy/Marines are currently going towards what they are calling The Navy Marine Corps Intranet or NMCI. This is a multi-billion dollar project. However, they are contracting all work out to either miltary civilians or EDS. I know for a fact that all Marine Computer programmers are moved to an Network Admin position and no new programmers are being allowed in. The Marines are figuring that instead of paying peanuts to Marines to do IT, that they'll pay out the A## to EDS. I believe that the Navy is still going to have IT personnel, but be aware of possible cutbacks in miltary IT.
Third, I read how a poster suggested going in the miltary and being an officer. Several problems with that. One is that once you go in to OCS (officer school) you are NOT guarenteed what job you will have when you graduate, not so for enlisted. But enlisted you start at the bottom of the heap and spend most of your time cleaning the bathroom and maintaining old code (cobol/jcl/etc) or even older systems. And once you do rise in the ranks you spend more time worrying about your troops then coding/IT.
If anything go for a civilian job at a miltary base, this provides the best perks to crap ratio. But even then sucks rather bad (low pay, crappiest working conditions,etc.)
Also, the Marines still had buildings that were condemed (with marines working in them), and were so bad that they refused to lay cat 5 (just done 2 yrs ago at Camp Pendleton,CA) as they were going to be demolished. Though out my Marine Corps career I dealt with some of the stupidest people, espaically in IT work.The best was trying to explain to a Sgt why the shop should go with a certain IT in house solution vice a MicroCrap product, he said "Because I'm a Sgt (E-5) and Your a LCPL (E-3), Thats why" we're going to use the MicroCrap.
Finally, if you go into the miltary you are held to a different set of rules then civilians.Like you can be put in jail for up to 5 years on Adultary charges!
When you're in the middle of the ocean you cannot just call over the next hill for additional supplies or expertise. You have to make do with what you have and what you know. It also means that your troubleshooting skills must be honed.
During long stretches at sea, entertainment is limited to what's onboard. For an IT person, this isolation can be ideal for learning or tinkering to improve one's skills. I found the time useful for reading manuals and fixing my shipmates' broken gear.
I was in the Air Force for 6 yrs. They definitely have the best quality of life and plenty of tech jobs. If you want to get more education, they'll pay for classes you take off-duty.
If you want to be a programmer, enlist rather than becoming an officer. It's a 4 yr minimum commitment, then if you like it, you could re-enlist or apply to OTS to become an officer. As an officer, you'd most likely be a manager.
Whatever you do, don't enlist until they guarantee you the job you want.
I work for a living!!!