Sharp Ships New PDA Running Linux 2.4

cbowland writes: "Sharp is now shipping the SL-5000D Zaurus PDA with a Linux 2.4 kernel, embedded PalmTop, Personal Java, and QT. Priced at $399 for developers only. Their plan is to get some apps created before marketing it to the public. Check it out" I wonder if the USB port on the docking station would let these work with the Happy Hacker keyboard ...

Comments

"developers only"...

[anotherone]

What does "Developers Only" mean? Do I have to actually work for a software company? Or can I just be hobby programmer?

It seems like most programs for other handhelds are made by private individuals, rather than actual software houses. I wonder what the requirements for being a developer are...

Re:"developers only"...

[anpe]

Are my autoexec.bat editing skillz enough to buy this thing ?

Re:"developers only"...

[CProgrammer98]

I guess you just have to have linux programming skills (whatever *that* means!) - there's nothing on the order form that says "are you a developer?" - looks like just anyone could order the thing!

Re:"developers only"...

[varslot]

I would say this is a way to tell people that there are not that many applications comming with it, so you should be prepared to create whatever you need. I don't think they would reject anyone wishing to buy it.

Re:"developers only"...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Developers only" means it's not a finished polished product yet.

I'm in the UK and have had mine for several weeks (though i'm only a hobbyist developer)

Things are not quite there yet on the application and driver support, things like the IrDA stack being incomplete, but in general it works. Support for wireless lan cards is good, support for usb syncing with a linux desktop isnt at the moment

A lot of effort is needed to be put in developing the apps more to integrate better with each other and provide the typical PDA functionality.

Also the developers version only has 32M ram, while the consumer version is romoured to have 64M.

Basicly they will sell one to anyone, you don't have to be from a software company or have a known track record, but it won't be much good to anyone that isn't happy pissing about a bit to make it do what they want.

Checkout http://more.sbc.co.jp/slj/index.asp for the sharp built developers community. Sharp employees are present on the board, and are willing to help out. Full doccumentation is creeping out slowly, and they plan to release source and full build instructions for the kernel they are using.

It's an excelant little toy, and something i'd reccomend to anyone that is used to compiling apps on linux :)

slider

[BigBir3d]

Nokia had a cell phone (8890?) on the market with a sliding front face. It didn't last very long before breaking. Nokia no longer makes/sells that phone. It left the market in about a year.

Hopefully this device has a better mechanism than that.

Re:slider

[OblongPlatypus]

The 8890 is only one of several Nokia phones with this kind of sliding mechanism. Another is 7110, which is still very much on the market. I'm not saying it's a good solution (it's not, mine broke pretty fast), but apparently it sells anyway. And Nokia haven't given up on sliding mechanisms; witness the recently announced 7650.

These Things are sweet!

[Firetree]

I saw one at Comdex, and it is one sweet little device. The screen is bright and clear, it doesnt weigh much and it's as fast as any handheld out there. Even the java runs fast on it =P

Only problem, I couldnt get much outta the people running the booth, they seemed pretty clueless...oh well.

Guess Ill hafta wait till they come out on the market *sigh*

Oh btw, the sliding keyboard mechanism on it is relatively well implemented, but it doesnt work well when its on the cradle (only a minor complaint) I do so want one of these things =J

-----------
Fire's Out ~~X

Re:2.4

[gregfortune]

Two things instantly come to mind...

1) The newest VM is probably the way to go for an embedded user responsive system. Comparisons posted here on slashdot show the newest 2.4 VM to whip the 2.2 VM
2) Not totally sure about this, but wouldn't the 2.4 kernel do a better job os supporting USB devices?

There's probably more too... As long as the OS is flashable (I'd be astonished if the developer editions had the OS ROM burned in...), then 2.4 is most likely a really good decision...

Greg

Re:2.4

[ankit]

Well, yes 2.4 _is_ a good idea. Infact the familiar distribution for the ipaq has 2.4 for as long as I can remember!

2.4 has several features like enhanced USB etc. that make it better suited. Besides, most of the work for the strongarm processor is now neing done on 2.4... no point playing around with anything older!

Very nice looking

[gregfortune]

Price tag is a little high for me right now, but it would make a nice replacement for my Agenda :)

Two things surprice me though.
1) why didn't they include more memory? This thing is set up to do some very cool things regarding multimedia, but videos/sound suck up space... Memory has to have dropped enough since I got my Agenda, hasn't it? Guess this is offset a little by the ability to drop Flash cards in, but they're dang expensive..
2) What's that little Serial/USB (via the Docking Station) port comment? Does that mean that I wouldn't have USB when I wasn't docked. That would kinda suck, but it's probably a power consumption issue. Wonder how long that battery runs a color screen?

Greg

Re:Very nice looking

[Albanach]

It's a developer edition - perhaps they want folk to develop apps that run comfortably in 32MB, then when they release a production version with 64MB or even 128MB multiple tasks from multiple developers should be able to run side by side without memory problems. Just my 2p worth.

developers usually follow users, not vice-versa

[petree]

I would imagine that for most developers, personal (shareware) or commercial houses, they go where the user base is. I can understand being interested in developing a new handheld, but I think that most developers are interested in marketing to where there are the most users: either PalmOS or WinCE. I would imagine that is where 95% of PDA users reside, so I can't imagine anyone devoting -THAT- much time/effort/resources to a PDA that has no user base.

I certainly wouldn't put my time into developing for a non-existant userbase. Who knows if this will even make it to market?

Just my thoughts.

Re:developers usually follow users, not vice-versa

[OverCode@work]

It is true that there will probably be fewer third party apps for this platform. However,

a) Qt is a popular and well known API. Writing Qt apps is a hell of a lot easier than writing Palm OS apps.

b) WinCE development is of little interest to the hordes of Linux developers out there.

c) The ARM processor is quite powerful, and many existing Linux apps can be ported directly to the PDA. For instance, I ported my modplayer directly to the iPAQ. I ended up reworking the mixing system to get rid of floating point math, but the port was mostly straightforward. The main problem is the smaller screen, and hence user interface issues, but Qt makes this a bit easier. Some of the OHH people (see below) are working on a version of GTK with improved support for PDA displays.

d) There is a sizeable Open Handhelds community out there. Try http://www.handhelds.org, or #handhelds.org on OPN. These people are actively working on making open source PDA development viable.

e) Several large companies (Compaq, Sharp, HP (before the merger), etc) are interested in alternatives to Windows CE. Per-unit license fees add up quickly when you're mass producing units. Linux has no per-seat licensing, and the ARM port of the kernel is quite stable and mature.

I agree that Linux probably won't see the developer backing of WinCE (currently PocketPC 2002) or Palm OS, but it's definitely not out on a limb by itself, like VTech's VTOS (on the Helio PDA).

-John

Feedback from prospective developer

[Anonymous Coward]

I ordered one of these a month ago. Here are a few links that you might be interested in:

Zdnet Commentary:
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,28 26 164,00.html

Developer's Review on LinuxDevices:
http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS5326761307.ht ml

Developer's FAQ:
http://tank.dyndns.org/index.php?op=showfaq&id=4

From the developer forums, the general impression is that this is on a tiny budget, but the people that are involved a very dedicated (Hi, Mitchy!). I would post the link to the developer forums but the server would crash. From the forums, the top issues are:

1) Upgrade memory to 64MB (from 32). I am in favor of this, though other developers make the point that Linux should not need as much memory as PocketPC, also this increases the cost. I would add more ROM (up to 32MB), or at least offer a high-end model with more memory.

2) No speaker like PocketPC (just a buzzer). You have to listen to MP3's with headphone jack. I don't think this is important, but others want a IPAQ like speaker. There's also no Sound DSP.

3) Dependence on embedded QT license. There is some concern about paying QT for your applications, but on the Sharp forums Sharp says that they are working with QT for low-cost commercial QT licensing.

4) SD (Secure Digital) support, Bluetooth support.
I think these are both really needed to make this successful.

One other issue is that I would like to the Sharp license the interface from the IPAQ or HandSpring (Springboard), so the Zaurus can leverage the external devices for those devices.

Any opionions from any other developers?

Re:Feedback from prospective developer

[vscjoe]

3) Dependence on embedded QT license. There is some concern about paying QT for your applications, but on the Sharp forums Sharp says that they are working with QT for low-cost commercial QT licensing.

The concern isn't (just) with the license, it is with the lack of compatibility and interoperability. If you run Qt/Embedded, you can't share the screen with applications written in other toolkits or in raw X11.

Does that matter? I think it does. It places the Sharp outside the family of other Linux-based PDAs and embedded systems, meaning that code for other PDAs can't easily be ported to the Sharp. It also means that workstation applications are much harder to port--even if you change the UI to accomodate a smaller screen, much of the display logic can be shared between desktop and handheld applications.

A cheap Qt/Embedded developer's license just won't help. Sharp needs to provide X11. They can still run their applications using Qt/X11 on it.

Re:Feedback from prospective developer

[infiniti99]

It places the Sharp outside the family of other Linux-based PDAs and embedded systems, meaning that code for other PDAs can't easily be ported to the Sharp.

What other PDAs? Really, Linux handhelds are mostly vaporware. There are not tons and tons of small-screen Linux apps to be ported to the Sharp. One of the biggest problems normal users have with X11 are all the differing toolkits. If Sharp wants to target normal users then it is going to need a consistent interface. This is an excellent time to establish a precedent for Linux PDA applications.

Re:Feedback from prospective developer

[brad3378]

I'm not a developer, but as a potential customer, here's why I would not yet buy one:

32 Megs Memory: It seems reasonable to believe that this would not require as much memory as a Pocket PC, but as a temporary storage device, or MP3 player, it's hardly adequate.j

Cost: Yes, portability costs extra, but IMHO, $400 is too much for this type of device considering the alternatives such as Samsung's Uproar Cell-phone/PDA/MP3 player which was only $300 last time I checked. I assume that the consumer version would cost more than the $400.00 discounted developer price, further putting this out of my reach.

It's potential is looking good, but I'm not quite ready.

Re:Feedback from prospective developer

[avdp]

Well, I often hear that remote X sessions take more network bandwidth than Microsoft's terminal server (a limitation of the X protocol as oppose to Microsoft's proprietary protocol) - that's obviously a non-issue on the PDA. Other than that, X is just fine by all accounts: it's been used on several PDAs already (including the Ipaq) and there has been no such complaint.

If you know something the rest of the world doesn't, please do share.

Re:Feedback from prospective developer

[mj6798]

Not to mention that X is a hog, both in bandwidth and in memory and disk space requirements.

A 200MHz iPaq or Sharp has about 10x the speed and memory of desktop workstations on which X11 was used traditionally. X11's performance, disk space requirements, and memory requirements are as good as most "embedded" toolkits. The reason why X11 uses a lot of memory on your Linux box is because it can and because it is deliberately configured that way, not because there is anything intrinsic about X11 that requires a lot of resources.

And don't tell me about "low bandwidth X" and Tiny X - they all serve to illustrate that X is fundamentally broken, and certainly isn't for handhelds.

The X11 protocol was designed for Ethernet and works very efficiently on Ethernet, better than any of the alternatives. LBX was designed to adapt X11 for low bandwidth, high latency connections and works as well as anything over those. I don't know what TinyX is supposed to be for, but you don't need it for a 200MHz handheld. you don't even need it for a 66MHz handheld with 8M of RAM.

The people who are screaming for X on a handheld need to come out and live in the Real World.

I think the people who keep badmouthing X11 should get a clue.

Re:Feedback from prospective developer

[mj6798]

Really, Linux handhelds are mostly vaporware.

iPaqs have been running Linux for several years and are quite popular.

There are not tons and tons of small-screen Linux apps to be ported to the Sharp.

There are tons of X11 apps with X11 display logic that can be usefully ported to X11 handhelds with only small modifications to the UI.

One of the biggest problems normal users have with X11 are all the differing toolkits.

I have never seen any evidence for that, and repeating that claim endlessly doesn't make it true. In fact, I suspect most people couldn't tell a well-written Qt application from a well-written Gtk+ application. Furthermore, even on Windows or MacOS, developers use many different toolkits, yet users don't seem to notice.

Re:Feedback from prospective developer

[vscjoe]

You *CAN* run X11 apps under QPE. You can either use the QPE VNC viewer or run QPE and X11 from FBVNC (Frame Buffer VNC).

A VNC viewer doesn't give you the ability to run X11 applications. Even if you add an VNC server to the mix, you end up with a system where the Qt/Embedded applications are integrated (drag-and-drop, cut-and-paste, window management), while the X11 applications are second class and suffer the overhead of going through VNC. Sorry, that is not an attractive proposition.

Also, work is being done to run QPE itself under X11. These methods all cause a minor performance hit, but with a 206mhz CPU, it's hardly noticeable.

Running QPE under X11 shouldn't be a problem, but someone still needs to port an X11 server to the Sharp and Sharp needs to update their distribution. When that happens, the Sharp will become my first choice of Linux PDA, since it is otherwise a nifty device. Until that happens, the Sharp is fatally flawed, IMO.

I prefer an iPaq running Familiar

[vscjoe]

You will have to use Qt/Embedded, and you will be using the commercial Lineo distribution. This may be good if you are looking for a slick Linux-based PDA to replace a Palm (although it won't be as small or mature as a Palm), but it isn't as good if you are looking to develop handheld applications for the Linux handheld market, or if you are converting existing Linux software to run on Linux handhelds.

I think an iPaq running Familiar is a better choice for developers and vertical applications (probably the primary market of Linux handhelds).

With the new bootloader, installing Linux on an iPaq should be a breeze, too (no more serial downloads). And you get a full, standard Linux/X11 environment. Compaq even set up some 200MHz ARMs boards as development servers on the web.

Some more pictures

[jacoplane]

There was a preview of this PDA a while back on Infosync. There was also a /. story associated with those pics.

Did not take time to read the EULA...

[mirko]

Short question :
Can a Registered Developper Port something else than Linux to it ?

The PDA actually looks sexy on the hardware side, not on the software side (A friend of mine bought a Linux-iPaq from Lisa and it appears to be quite slow, lacks responsiveness and also burns its batteries in about one hour).

I think some special projects like RiscOS would be more adequate.

Re:Did not take time to read the EULA...

[Anonymous Coward]

My preference would be inferno. It already runs
on the iPaq and is generally a good fit for this
type of appliation.

http://www.vitanuova.com/inferno

Agenda

[adebater]

For only $99 at Fry's you can pick up an Agenda (now defunct) that runs linux (2.4 I believe). There is active developing going on, and you can't beat the price!! It'll save ya about $300!

Try these sites for info:

Agenda Software Repository:
http://supermegamulti.com/agenda/

Agenda Unofficial FAQ:
http://www.lardcave.net/agenda/agenda-faq.html

Re:Agenda

[Bob Uhl]

Are Agenda out of business? I just went to the Agenda Computing site, and it's still up. Bummer--I was hoping to get one of those to play with, and have for awhile.

Re:Agenda

[erc]

For only $99 at Fry's you can pick up an Agenda (now defunct) that runs linux (2.4 I believe). There is active developing going on, and you can't beat the price!!

Of course not - it's because the thing won't *do* anything. It's not the software that makes the Agenda suck so bad, it's the hardware (or lack thereof) - no expandability, no CF or PCMCIA interface, no USB, no serial interface, unreadable mono screen ... even Compaq did a better job. The iPAQ might be expensive, but the screen is beautiful - and READABLE, under any lighting conditions. Plus, I can pop my 802.11b card into the PC Card sleeve and wander around work with the thing in my pocket. If I get new email, it beeps at me - no need to keep checking my email, which was a HUGE drawback to the Palm VII, much as I love the Palm.

Now, if someone would just come out with a tiny Linux distro that had Evolution and a browser (that would at least support CSS and JavaScript) that I could flash into ROM on the iPAQ, and life would be just about perfect ;)

Linux + Java - gotta be a winning combination!

[philipx]

Besides the fact that the US web site http://www.sharp-usa.com when viewed with K-Meleon displayed a page indicating to upgrade to Internet Explorer 4 or Netscape 4, I was quite unable to find a lot of info.
A few web searches took me through the UK web site (they have a pdf spec sheet) to the developer's web site (why didn't I think of it in the first place ?!).

Both the Linux spec and Java are interesting. It runs PersonalJava 1.2 with the Truffle AWT L&F. On the Linux part, it implements Embedix - the 2.4 kernel. I find very interesting it supports BusyBox + some additional commands.

"It provides minimal replacements for most of the utilities you usually find in fileutils, shellutils, findutils, textutils, grep, gzip, tar, etc. In addition, by using the network or a Compact Flash card, useful Linux tools can be used."

Also, I find very comforting that on the interface part we got Qt/Embedded which is quite cool.

To sum it up... I'm a developer looking for a PDA. $400 is pricey, but the Zaurus is not a gadget it's a real tool. I hope I'll find the funds to get one for Xmas :)

philipx

Ipaq tax...

[barneyfoo]

Why should I buy an Ipaq?

Won't I have to pay the Microsoft tax? Maybe I am too principled, but I dont think I should pay for something I won't use.

Re:Ipaq tax...

[Russ Nelson]

The Microsoft tax is less than it would cost Compaq to create a second, MS-less product. If you would like to eliminate the Microsoft tax, then buy an iPAQ, install Linux, and create a vertical market application. If Compaq can sell enough Linux iPAQs, then it will undoubtedly create a productized version of the Linux iPAQ.
-russ

Re:Ipaq tax...

[barneyfoo]

Not quite.

Compaq could actually make MORE money per ipaq if they sold it without an OS.

Follow me here. They sell the ipaq without an OS. Bright idea occurs to them. Charge a NO-OS fee of 25% of the MS tax. Bingo. More money in the bank thanks to linux users who dont want to pay for software they wont use.

Got any other bright ideas?

"Maybe I am too principled, but I dont think I should pay for something I won't use"
-- stil stands.

Re:Ipaq tax...

[mj6798]

I agree with the sentiment. However, Compaq may not pay a per-device charge. In any case, the hardware is nice and (parts of) Compaq have been working really hard to support Linux on these devices, so the company is at least somewhat supportive of Linux.

images

[toasta]

Check out the hi res images at: http://www.sharp.co.uk/pda/images.htm This baby has just made it to the very top of my christmas list....:)

Quality of the Linux support ?

[burgdavid]

I have myself play a bit with such embedded devices "for developpers" from other compagnies than Sharp and was rather disapointed by a partial only support of linux kernel.

By example, the support of PCMCIA board was usually not working correctly (just crashing the whole box when you start with something plugged in) or not supporting much devices (like been limited to IDE-raw only devices).

I will be very interested on experience of people who buy this device, about the quality of the kernel modules support, more especially of connection modules (USB, PCMCIA, and so on). And not only booting the kernel and the module, but *really* doing something usefull with it (booting is good, stand stable a some minutes is better)...

If USB or PCMCIA are correctly supported, it will be cool to develop (me ?) a Linux burning engine that fits the embedded engine ! :)

Syncronization?

[pointwood]

To me, a Palm without synching capabilities isn't worth much. Most importantly, I need to able to sync my contacts, calendar, notes, etc., with my desktop. If I should be a bit demanding, I would say that I need to sync with Outlook at work and with KDE at home.

From the FAQ:
The syncronization software for the PDA doesn't support Linux?
This is correct. Both QT Center (currently) and IntelliSync only run under Windows.

Haavard Noord, CEO of Troll Tech has stated that there will be a Linux version of the Palmtop Center software, but are currently working out various technical issues, so it might not ship with the consumer release of the Zaurus.

Anybody knows more about this? I mean, syncing with ex. KDE.

But can you press more than one button at a time?

[thryllkill]

As this is very important to developing the most important applications on any system... GAMES!!!!

Some other things to note...

[bc90021]

1. There are some really good pictures of the device at Sharp's UK site. (For dial-up users, be forewarned that they are a bit large.)
2. Currently, the device only synchs with Windows, but SSH/SCP has already been ported, so you can at least FTP with a Linux machine (and securely, to boot!)
3. Someone has already ported the Seminole Web Server. Konqueror is being ported as well. A minimal Python port is supposedly in the works!
4. This device contains both a CF slot and a memory card slot, so you can use your Targus CF Modem (maybe even your MicroDrive?) and an MMC at the same time. ;)
5. Pocket Quake is already running on it!

The device is a little expensive (US$400), and you can't sign up to get one without becoming a developer (here), but if you're into Linux, Qt, and/or Java, it could very well be worth it

And if you're not hardcore enough to get the Developer version, the consumer version should be available early next year, and it makes a great PDA regardless.

Mine will be here Wednesday... I can't wait!

Its to Big and Bulky

[quakeaddict]

Its to Big and Bulky

I mean if you whipped that out in a crowd they migh shoot you thinking you were going to launch the missiles.

Re:Its to Big and Bulky

[oob]

It's bigger than a Palm and roughly the same size as an Ipaq when the keyboard is stowed.

It fits comfortably into my hand and I carry it around in my pocket.

horizontal

[dalinian]

A pretty sweet machine, but what I'd like to see is to have it horizontal instead of vertical. That way they could probably fit in a bit larger qwerty keyboard. And I'd think the horizontal display is in general more useful, because most text is horizontal too.

Pardon My Ignorance.

[Zspdude]

Sorry to display my ignorance this publically, but I can't help wondering...

Given that the most common use I've associated with Linux has been use on a server of some variety, due to its stability and security, I can't help wondering what makes it a good OS for a PDA. Linux hasn't made a big impact on home computers, largely due to the fact that it isn't as user friendly as might be. Isn't the idea of an OS for a PDA that it be very easy to use and very convenient for the uneducated user?

Or does Linux fit in better with PDA's than I'd naturally assume?

Re:Pardon My Ignorance.

[metis]

While user friendliness is important, what makes or breaks an OS is developer friendliness. Microsoft's success has much to do with the savyness of its marketing to developers. Linux has managed to become a major OS because enough developers are ready to do top quality work for it for free.

Sharp seems to believe that it can replicate the success of linux on the PDA by enticing developers to create applications. hope they are right.

Re:Pardon My Ignorance.

[yomoma]

Really, well why is it that we can't go a day without every developer at my company cursing Microsoft? Microsoft has successfully marketed to everybody who makes purchasing decisions, not people who actually deal with these decisions. An in turn, software companies support them because that's where the most potential customers are.

In response to the original question, Linux is not hard to use - Unix-like systems are unfamiliar to most people, and granted, were not designed with an end user in mind. But, Linux provides a stable platform to build applications on. It's up to Sharp to provide a good UI - the user shouldn't have to care if it runs Linux or PocketPC underneath. (kind of like what apple did with OS X, if you don't care to look, you'll never know it's Unix-based).

Re:Pardon My Ignorance.

[Royster]

Given that the most common use I've associated with Linux has been use on a server of some variety, due to its stability and security, I can't help wondering what makes it a good OS for a PDA.

I use Linux on all the PCs I own and use regularly. (I have a Thinkpad with Win95 that runs but collects dust in the closet.) I run no servers. I curently do wirleless email from a subnotebook running Linux and I've already ordered one of these and I'm planning on getting a CF CDPD modem for it. That will save me about a pound in my briefcase every day.

I want Linux on my PDA becuase it is my OS of choice and I can get it to do a lot of things.

I've got 802.11b with the Zaurus

[oob]

Getting a Z-Com 802.11b CF card working with my Zaurus was thde first thing I did. You can find my HOWTO on the dev2dev forum at http://developer.sharpsec.com (free reg req.) I am using the unit day in and day out as my PDA (web, contacts, email, addressbook, whatever) as well as using the underlying *nix functionality for stuff like systems and network support when I am moving around the office or, in fact, sitting at the pub around the corner having a pint. This device is out-of-this-world-cool and I suggest that every Network/Sys Admin should put it on their Christmas gift list. Having used it for a couple of weeks and watched the incredible pace at which software is ported to it I have to say that it is everything that I need as an IT professional in a PDA right now and it is only going to get better. I seriously doubt that PDA's running anything but Linux will have any market share in twelve months,there is simply no way Palm or embedded Windows can keep up with this thing. End users will appreciate the stability, speed and vast amount of software, while the I.T. people will appreciate the awesome flexibility and functionality. walking around right now with a linux PDA that is a significantly higher spec than my first Linux desktop is a thrill and having it connected most of the time to the 'net at 11mb/s is the icing on the cake.

It's flashable

[Russ Nelson]

It's flashable. Stick a 32M CF memory module with a new copy of the OS, and reboot with B and C keys pressed, and it copies the OS from the CF into the onboard flash. So OS updates of any kind are no problem.
-russ

Yopy, Agenda, and others...

[Svartalf]

The Yopy is due out soon (Realize that the Sharp PDA available now isn't much different than the developer release of the Yopy- it's still not a "real" PDA in the same sense as the Agenda...) and the Agenda is already out.

You're supposed to use Fltk to develop apps for either of those, even though they use completely differing GUI engines (Yopy- W, Agenda- MicroWindows)- which means that one app written for the Yopy is liable to work decently enough without major changes on the Agenda (memory permitting...) or an iPaq running Familiar, Similar, Pixil, or some other MicroWindows or X based PDA distribution. The same cannot be said for a Qt/E based PDA. You have either the Sharp PDA or an iPaq in which someone has installed Qt/E on it.

Linux PDAs aren't vapor like you contend- just not pervasive like Windows CE devices or Palm devices.

Re:Yopy, Agenda, and others...

[mj6798]

I believe Yopy dropped "W" and switched to X11.

Which Linux Kernel does it come with?

[Jeff Probst]

The story says it comes with one of the 2.4 kernel series. I'm just wanting to know if they shipped 2.4.11 or 2.4.15.