Porting Debian to... Windows

mike_sucks writes: "The first step to porting Debian to the Win32 platform has been made - dpkg is compiling under Cygwin. Check out the post on debian-devel and the Debian GNU/w32 port's site." Some of the posters on the debian-devel list aren't too pleased with the idea.

Comments

At first

[PigeonGB]

I thought this was an odd idea.
Why would anyone want to port an OS to another OS (don't start with "Windows is not an OS, please!")?
Then I saw what this all meant.
If people can get used to using Debian tools and programs on Windows, then they won't be nearly as nervous about using them in a GNU/Linux environment.
Bravo! I can't wait to see how that turns out.

The snake eats its tail...

[Anonymous Coward]

This port is meant to run on any win32 implementation. Some win32
implementations are free (wine, reactos), others are not (microsoft).
free implementations are of course recommended and cygwin is proven
to work fine on wine.


Let's see... Install Linux, configure WINE and then....
Install Linux!

One Word

[Quasar1999]

VmWare...

Why go through the hassle of porting it, when you can just run it on any OS you like using VmWare...???

This is a good, if not fun, idea

[nirvdrum]

I remember when this was first discussed on debianplanet, and a lot of people started flipping out. There's simply some places (such as the work office), where one is forced to use a Win32 OS, and cannot dual-boot. Besides, dual-booting is a PITA. If I can "dpkg -i" a package under cygwin, and get to using the gimp VS photoshop, I'll do it in a heartbeat.

At best, one can say that this will deter people from linux. But then again, everyone loves linux because of all the OSS available for it. And if the whole goal is to promote OSS, why neglect the largest user base? Then when people get sick of Windows, they can convert to FreeBSD or Linux or whatever without there being a huge learning curve involved.

I don't think I really agree with the port being called w32 though. win32 is not a moniker that promotes Windows as a winner, it's just the first syllable of the word, just like a lot of nicknames are formed. I wish RMS would spend more time coding than trying to be a politician :)

Sometimes the OS doesn't matter

[bill_mcgonigle]

The folks here who *have* to run windows, don't really, they *have* to run certain windows apps, because they are a defacto standard in the relevant application domain and the linux apps aren't quite up to par yet and WINE isn't quite ready for that app.

They'll never willingly quit Windows cold-turkey, but if they can start to run debian/gnu/linux (pick one) apps on Windows, eventually the linux apps will overtake the quality of the windows apps and the people will then be using them and have no reason not to switch (cost, cost, cost).

I used to think that linux on the desktop wasn't a goal worth persuing at the moment - then I realized every Windows/Office purchase is money for Microsoft to use on its quest to eliminate linux.

Re:Sometimes the OS doesn't matter

[Syberghost]

The folks here who *have* to run windows, don't really, they *have* to run certain windows apps, because they are a defacto standard in the relevant application domain and the linux apps aren't quite up to par yet and WINE isn't quite ready for that app.

That is not true of all the folks here who have to run Windows.

Some of them indeed do have to run whatever OS their company has selected, and don't think that what OS happens to be on their computer is reason enough to quit their job.

Re:waste of time and effort...

[JWhitlock]

this seems like another HUGE waste of time and effort on the part of the Linux community. Why is it that so much code has to be wasted on these "we're doing it because WE CAN" projects? If you want to use Debian tools, USE DEBIAN!! Not Debian on Win32; not Debian on OSX, just DEBIAN. Does that make TOO MUCH sense or something?

Waste of time? It only wasted a minute of your time, and most of that was wasted by you posting a reply.

Waste of time for the developers? They are working on what they are interested in. If you want them to work on something they are less interested in, pay them. "Silly" side projects is what makes this games work.

Waste of time for the users? Some folks have to use Windows in a job context, because the tools they use are Windows only. Once people are used to Unix tools, it's hard to go back. Plus, what happens to the Wintel platform when:

The user runs free office applications that freely work with Microsoft Office formats, but have an even better native format

The user ignores the latest "vital" Microsoft operating system extensions, in favor of tools ported from the Linux / BSD environments

The user uses non-Microsoft entertainment apps, because they are less restrictive than the "official" ones

Core Microsoft facilities are replaced with ones that work better with the "ported" tools

Users have the option of emulating Windows software/games, or buying a native Linux version, and start to seriously think about the Linux version

The hardest part about moving to Linux is learning the 200 basic facts that allow you to work at all (deleting files is called "removing", user files go here, applications go here, you start X11 by typing "startx", etc.). If you can learn 100 of those facts under a Windows environment, you are half-way there.

This is a stepping stone in a migration to the standard Debian, or it may be the start of new and interesting developments. We just have to wait and see.

(Dammit, responded to an AC again...)

The Application is King

[quixotal]

I use native win32 ports of gnu tools daily. Why? Because they are small and just work. The application is king. I don't really care where I run it. quixotal

The OS Hardly Ever Matters....

[Carnage4Life]

Except for some people who think choosing an operating system of importance equivalent to choosing a religion most of us don't care what OS we use. Instead most people care about what apps they can run on a given OS. My favorite apps/tools are Emacs, Perl, Internet Explorer, WinAmp, ICQ, ssh, bash, grep and Word. Windows runs all of them with the least amount of hassle and that's why I use it. This is true for most of the computer users in the world, the OS that the app happens to run on is incidental.

I used to think that linux on the desktop wasn't a goal worth persuing at the moment - then I realized every Windows/Office purchase is money for Microsoft to use on its quest to eliminate linux.

Short of acquiring a genie and using their three wishes to wish away Linux, Open Source, and college classes on operating systems there's no way that anyone can eliminate Linux. Most reasonable people realize this (including Linus) and rightfully don't see Linux vs. Microsoft as some sort of war that should be won at all costs.

Re:Yes, it will

[KarmaBlackballed]

Trust me; if you can show me an OS that does everything that Windows does that I like, is more stable, AND is free / cheap, I'll switch

By bringing the apps into your Windows PC you are not getting any proof of anything. You are just getting a better Windows machine. Why would anyone be fool enough to switch from Windows if they can have it all there?

Lets be real, there will always be an app or two that only runs in Windows until there is a critical mass of soccer moms using Linux as a desktop. Ports like this hurt the chances that such critical mass will ever be achieved. Bill likes this.

Who is this 'we' you speak of?

[autopr0n]

Should we be porting software from Windows to Linux(e.g., WINE) instead of from Linux to Windows?

Really, who do you mean by 'we'? This may be a shock to you, but there are some people who actually *ghasp* like windows, myself included. The fact of the matter is, for me, A lot of things are just easier for me to deal with in windows then in Linux, even setting up and running Apache, because I'm more used to it. I have a little Linux box for playing around with, but for the most part I like windows.

I mean, the driving force of Open source software is people doing stuff because they feel like doing it. people doing stuff because they want to. You can't just say "we should work on WINE for accomplishing our political objectives" and then have Everybody magically want to spend their time reimplementing Microsoft skank-nasty APIs

This may bother you, but everything on Debian is Open Source. And that means that you can take it and do whatever you want to with it, including porting it to windows.

If this is a success, there's a good chance I'll be running it.

So much for OS neutrality

[MouseR]

Some of the posters on the debian-devel list aren't too pleased with the idea.

It's interesting to note that, while porting anything TO Linux is acceptable, porting Linux to something else irritates some.

I think this is something positive. If you can give users of other platform a taste of your own cooking, chances are they'll come for a full meal at some point.

Or at the very least, make them taste something else and open up their minds.

I see this as a teaser, and a pretty good way to get some free software (like Gimp), other than the OS itself, a chance to open up to a new crowd.

The "controversy"

[Daniel]

A lot of people seem to think that the posters on debian-devel are trying to somehow suppress or forbid this port of software. Although some of us may be uneasy about it, I haven't seen anyone actually suggest that.

The question causing argument is whether this port should be officially recognized by the Debian Project, given that one of our foundational documents says "Debian will remain 100% free software", and that software which depends on non-free software to run is considered "not part of Debian".

The crux of the matter is this, from a post on the list by Stephen Langseck:

I recognize the advantages of a dpkg-based system for cygwin, and think
it's an interesting idea that will benefit many people who can't
necessarily choose the OS of their computer; but even so, I have
misgivings about using the Debian name on such a port. If the non-free
archive is not part of Debian, should a port built on a non-free kernel
be called 'Debian'? After all, unless all the compiling for this port
will be done using Wine and gcc, you effectively will have an entire
port with build-dependencies on non-free software.

Daniel