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World Sousveillance Day

Sousveillance Cyborg writes: "Sousveillance is inverse surveillance, and a worldwide community of cyborgs is promoting sousveillance as a way toward more privacy and less secrecy. Today is World Sousveillance Day (WSD). See http://wearcam.org/wsd.htm. Transmitting live from around the world at noon (moving with time zone)."

189 comments

  1. It's a bit late to announce this by 13013dobbs · · Score: 1

    It might have been helpful to have this put out before the day it happens.

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    1. Re:It's a bit late to announce this by sar · · Score: 0, Redundant

      my sentiments exactly. its 4:15 here and that story got posted at 4:08. Not only a little late, but a *lot* late. Next on /. "US Government tests first Atomic Bomb - Trinity tests begin"

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      .
    2. Re:It's a bit late to announce this by digitalunity · · Score: 3, Interesting

      What's your point? Did you even read the article? no? That's what I thought. Why don't you go read the article and come back later.

      I did however read it and there are a few scary points brought out. What do I think? I think I want a "Federal Government Comment Card".

      Here's a link to some interesting things about the governemt that most people don't know.

      --
      You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
    3. Re:It's a bit late to announce this by 13013dobbs · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The point was that if they want people to participate in this, they should give them some advance notice. I would have gone out and done this, but since I didn't find out about it until 5 hours after it had started, I can't.

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    4. Re:It's a bit late to announce this by mgblst · · Score: 1

      You are right off course, but perhaps we can have other days next year, during big shopping events. Maybe mothers day, valentines day. I am really up for this....yeah!

    5. Re:It's a bit late to announce this by SealBeater · · Score: 1

      Even if its too late to participate, its a good thing to be aware of and
      certainly its food for thought. Perhaps next year, or they could arrange for
      this to happen on every holiday or event that carries a high survellience
      profile.

      SealBeater

      --
      -- Its survival of the fittest...and we got the fucking guns!!!
    6. Re:It's a bit late to announce this by bani · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Willson's essays on depleted uranium and "alternative" medicine are barking mad, and put a huge question mark above all his other essays.

      The essays may be "interesting", but that doesn't mean there is any more truth to them than the X-Files.

    7. Re:It's a bit late to announce this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, and why you consider his article about depleted uranium "barking mad"? What about it is mad?

    8. Re:It's a bit late to announce this by nyquist_theorem · · Score: 2

      Hmm, that Willson boy seems to be quite well-informed... LOL...

      I'm surprised I didn't see an essay on how NASA faked the moon landings on there.

      --
      -- "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." (Charles Darwin)
    9. Re:It's a bit late to announce this by TooTallFourThinking · · Score: 1

      No it doesn't. Each essay should be considered on its own value and not compared to anything else he might have written. My critical reasoning teacher would always make the point, just because your dad tells you something doesn't mean it is right. Meaning, most people respect their father, but that has no baring on the validity of what he is saying.

      Likewise, just because Wilson might have written some real doozies, doesn't mean he couldn't get on right. Hell, quantum mechanics is even on his side on this one. ;)

  2. um.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    wow this is the worst timing of a story ever.
    only 4 hours and 12 minutes too late her. not even the west coasters can use this. why even post this?

  3. Oh No!!! by redcliffe · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    It's the Borg!!! We will all be assimiliated! Resistance is Futile......

  4. Given Recent Events.. by dagoalieman · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I certainly would not be doing this in an airport.

    For that matter, shooting photographs of security stuff in general may be a bad idea. You could easily get arrested for such stuff, even if it is an invasion of privacy.

    But, as always there's an alternate.. there's the middle finger. :)

    .

    --
    We don't need no Net Explorer We don't need no Thought control
    1. Re:Given Recent Events.. by RevRigel · · Score: 1

      Well, I don't know about where you live, but shooting the finger at someone here in Texas is a Class B misdemeanor (2yrs in jail, $500 fine). And they do enforce it if someone complains...or if some jackass security guard has it out for you.

    2. Re:Given Recent Events.. by SealBeater · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Isn't that kind of the point tho? If we should consent to being video taped
      and monitored, surely the govt. or whomever is doing the monitoring should have
      no problem with the people responding in kind. I remember when the greatest
      thing about America was that we the people were the ones who held the power.

      SealBeater

      --
      -- Its survival of the fittest...and we got the fucking guns!!!
    3. Re:Given Recent Events.. by jcorgan · · Score: 1

      I remember when the greatest thing about America was that we the people were the ones who held the power.

      You must be quite advanced in age...

      --
      Babies are cute because they have to be.
  5. World Subjectrights Day FAQ by msolnik · · Score: 2

    Check out the FAQ at wearcam.org. Its a pretty interesting read. Why dont we have a World Subjectrights Day everyday?!?! This is something that shouldnt be ignored and should have more attention givin to it. Too many people/companies dont take accountability for there actions and this has to stop!

    1. Re:World Subjectrights Day FAQ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What in the hell is a "there action"?

      Maybe you mean "their actions"... uneducated moron.

    2. Re:World Subjectrights Day FAQ by TooTallFourThinking · · Score: 1

      A typo does not mean that person is an uneducated moron... judgmental asshole.

  6. hmmmm... by psych031337 · · Score: 2

    Given the current craze about security it seems to me that taking pictures of surveillance cams and the personnel operating it is a sure-fire way to get questioned and maybe jailed for a night.

    Might be just me though. Maybe it helps to wear a "I am not a terrorist" t-shirt. Maybe not.

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    +++ath0
    1. Re:hmmmm... by bani · · Score: 2

      On what charges? You can be detained, but not jailed, without being charged with a crime.

      False arrest is a sure-fire way to a civil lawsuit and huge punitive damages.

    2. Re:hmmmm... by psych031337 · · Score: 2

      Well for instance if you were in a hotel lobby, a mall or a train station, personnel could order you to stop taking pics on their premises and order you off. Noncompliance will be a crime (or a misdemeanor at least, i am not too firm in US law)

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      +++ath0
    3. Re:hmmmm... by boydtel · · Score: 1

      IANAL but yes, that crime is a misdemeanor. Of course, once you have the picture why would you stay in a place where you're not wanted? These "you could be detained" worries seem like a lot of tiffle to me, we don't live in a gulag yet folks. It's important that we act like it. All IMO.

    4. Re:hmmmm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This seem like the first thing that could really chalange the Big Brother sociaty that is forming lets not waste it becuace we dont want to spend time in jail . PS : False arrests resulting in political protesters spending christmas in jail should bring publicity to the protests.

    5. Re:hmmmm... by bani · · Score: 2

      They can't stop you from taking pictures, but they can order you off the premises for any reason, or even no reason at all.

      !!However!! they cannot touch you in order to escort you off their premises, that would be criminal assault on their part. They can however call the police who will be more than happy to put a razor-sharp steel toed boot up your behind.

      Taking pictures isn't a crime, but trespassing is.

      Of course, they can only force you off the premises to the nearest public property. If that public property happens to be the sidewalk right in front of the door of the train station, tough noogies for them.

    6. Re:hmmmm... by njdj · · Score: 1

      Given the current craze about security it seems to me that taking pictures of surveillance cams and the personnel operating it is a sure-fire way to get questioned and maybe jailed for a night.

      Yes, defending your rights will result in trouble and inconvenience to you.

      But if you think that rights are just given to you for free, you're dreaming. You, or somebody else, has to earn them. Read about what the signers of the Declaration of Independence went through, so that Americans could live in freedom - at least until people like you decided rights weren't worth preserving.

  7. What a stupid idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Hmm. We don't like being watched by the People In Power, so instead of doing something hard but constructive, like trying to influence the law making process, we'll just run around with cameras acting like a bunch of annoying jerks.

    I have to admit that I was glad to hear about this, however. It makes the endless flamewars in the OSS community look downright intelligent.

    1. Re:What a stupid idea by boydtel · · Score: 1

      Running "around with cameras acting like a bunch of annoying jerks" does not preclude "doing something hard but constructive". What is it, did everyone on /. today wake up and take their grumpy pill?? Boyd, who regularly "runs around with cameras..." (-Most- people I know keep disposable cameras in their vehicles... sprinkle them around.)

    2. Re:What a stupid idea by TooTallFourThinking · · Score: 1

      You know, in this day and age I am surprised more people with digital cameras and camcorders aren't recording some of the crazy stuff people are doing and throwing it up on a website. That smells like a sure fire website right there that would be bound to get lots of traffic and continue on with the idea of Sousveillance.

      Maybe a site like that exists, but I have never heard of it. A weak argument I know...

    3. Re:What a stupid idea by Lumpy · · Score: 2

      pretty much because you dont have the balls to do it.
      They will attack you, they will steal your camera (use a throw away and have a second peron covertly photograph. Espically photograph you getting assulted by the security team.

      It's a helluva rush, and it get the point across. I reccomend everyone doing it at lest once. if you have the guts.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  8. places for sousveillance cams by homer_ca · · Score: 3

    -In your car, in case of an accident or traffic stop.
    -Hidden in your cellphone, to record in all those forbidden places. What do casinos and department stores have to hide?

    1. Re:places for sousveillance cams by Coward,+Anonymous · · Score: 2

      In your car, in case of an accident or traffic stop.

      You should make sure there are no laws against this before attempting it.

    2. Re:places for sousveillance cams by davesag · · Score: 1

      there is of course robocam on rundle street in adelaide. it's on the same building as the australian federal police but is the only camera in public control, not private or state control. anyone can go to the robocam website and have a play if they have netscape. it doesn't work with IE i tried.

      --
      I used to have a better sig than this, but I got tired of it
    3. Re:places for sousveillance cams by daswadester · · Score: 1

      Also useful for certain types of bars, like those with girls with a lack of clothing.

  9. i'm sorry, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...this is stupid. These people remind me of the hippies at my school that talk about how the "system" is bringing them down [and then are unable to elaborate when asked about said system, accusing questioner[s] of being [a] nazi[s]]. END COMMUNICATION

    Lameness filter encountered. Post aborted!
    Reason: Don't use so many caps. It's like YELLING.

  10. Bad Date by talonyx · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think Dec. 24 is one of the worst days they could have chosen to do this. Why?

    Just about anybody that celebrates Christmas is busy on Christmas Eve. Mom's gotta clean the house, Dad's gotta find a Turboman actionfigure for Young Jimmy, Highly Paid IT Businessman is busy partying, Joe Homeless is busy begging.

    The only people that are going to have no problem doing this on Dec. 24 are people that don't celebrate Christmas at all. Typically these would include various racial groups which the US has declared war on right now....

    So, would it be a great idea to have lots of people that (dumb) Yankees would consider to look like terrorists running around, taking pictures of things and getting security all riled up?

    I think this WSD should be on a more relaxed time of year. Maybe some time in April or something.

    1. Re:Bad Date by digitalunity · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      This is obvious flamebait. You also are an uncultered american. There are many people who don't celebrate christmas for reasons other than their race. Jews and Jehovah's Witnesses for example both do not celebrate Christmas.

      The US has been very diplomatic in conveying the idea that we are not anti-Muslim. We are anti-terrorist(which includes their passive supporters). Which also begs the question: Why aren't we doing anything about the Saudi's? But, alas, I'm off topic now.

      My point is, don't be racist. It's rude and inconsiderate. A Muslim can no more change his/her heritage than you can your 'whiteness'. Of course, I only make the assumption that you are white because someone of another race would likely be a little more sensitive to the issue.

      Be Kind.

      --
      You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
    2. Re:Bad Date by talonyx · · Score: 2

      First of all, I'm from Romania. I am not a Yankee. Please keep your manifest destiny to yourself.

      Second of all, it's not intended at racism. Go read my comment. I don't say these people are terrorists, or that they do anything wrong.

      I am saying that the circumstances would arise in which it would be people who don't celebrate Christmas, who are therefore less busy Dec. 24, that would have the time to participate in WSD.

      I don't mean racism and I am sorry that you viewed it that way. It's kind of sad that a person can't even MENTION other racial groups without people thinking she's racist.

    3. Re:Bad Date by Linegod · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "..Typically these would include various racial groups which the US has declared war on right now.... "

      Like us Atheists. Or those who celebrate Chanukah. Or those who celebrate Ukrainian Christmas. Or....

      "I think this WSD should be on a more relaxed time of year. Maybe some time in April or something."

      From the site:
      "Q. Why was Christmas Eve chosen ? The shops will be rather busy.

      A. that's exactly why. 12:00 noon dec.24th will be the busiest day, and the best expression of corporate culture, and the best time to shoot. It's a human element.. crowds of people herded like cattle, overseen by the surveillance. Also the lineups will be long, so it was felt that folks could entertain themselves while waiting in line by shooting. When you get bored waiting in line, liven it up with some camerafire. Shoot when you're bored. Shoot when you're frustrated. Shoot when you're being shot!!! "

      Give you a nickle if you read the article in question before posting.

      --
      -- I care not for your foolish signatures.
    4. Re:Bad Date by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only people who are being herded like cattle are the ones who would make any sort of deal out of this. The ones that believe that no surveillence provides _more_ security, and that people shouldn't be charged for distributing pirated software.

    5. Re:Bad Date by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would we do anything about the Saudis. The are the most liberal, pro-western, educated and least miss-managed country in the region, not to mention the oil thing.

    6. Re:Bad Date by Linegod · · Score: 1

      I couldn't care less if people are herded like cattle for Christmas or Sousveillance. I was simply pointing out that it was unlikely that he read the FAQ before posting.

      --
      -- I care not for your foolish signatures.
    7. Re:Bad Date by digitalunity · · Score: 2

      Typically these would include various racial groups which the US has declared war on right now....
      You cannot under any circumstances declare war on a race of people.

      If you typed it out wrong, ok. This is very easily misinterpreted as racism. If I am the confused one, I apologize.

      --
      You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
    8. Re:Bad Date by digitalunity · · Score: 2

      I wouldn't go that far. For the most part, yes you are correct. However, many Saudi officials have been named as sponsors of terrorist activities. There have also been a few terrorists that have been born there.

      --
      You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
    9. Re:Bad Date by Suppafly · · Score: 2

      You cannot under any circumstances declare war on a race of people.


      sure you can..
      people do it all the time.. its call genocide.

  11. the right thing to do by volkris · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This is actually a puckish wrapper around how things should be run daily anyway. There is nothing wrong with cameras mounted on streets and stores filming whomever might be around, but at the same time there is nothing wrong with cameras being held by people filming whatever they may see. The fact is that cameras create accountability (and generate raw information) no matter where and how they're used. Whether that accountability is acted upon and acted upon in a correct manner is a seperate subject that doesn't really involve the cameras themselves.

    As Brinn said, there is no stopping the spread of cameras now, but why would anyone want to stop them anyway? People need to simply accept the cameras and use them instead of fighting them every step of the way, missing out on the great things that cameras can provide average citizens.

  12. New definition of the elite by pyramid+termite · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Those who are able to arrange things so they are rarely watched.

    1. Re:New definition of the elite by benedict · · Score: 2

      Very good call!

      There's a book dedicated in part to this point.
      It's by Michel Foucault and it's called _Discipline
      and Punish_. (The title is confusing at first; the
      trick is that "discipline" is used as a verb.) I
      enjoyed it a lot, though the language can be a little
      dense. I recommend it in general.

      --
      Ben "You have your mind on computers, it seems."
  13. Quis custodiet ipso custodes? by mcdougaldd · · Score: 0

    .the right to swing your fist ends at the tip of the other chap's nose.

    I do not like to be filed in my everyday activities wether Im doing somethin I shouldnt be doing or not. But I must agree with the above posts, taking photos of law enforcement, survalence equipment, or the activities of either is inviting harassment upon yourself. I believe the quote Quis custodiet ipso custodes? (pulled fom the cover of the DC comics series the watchmen) means who watches the watchmen.
    When we stop questioning the activities of our government agencies, we give up the right to complain about their activities ;)

    --
    My life is either one big analogy, or one big wine stain. I can't tell these days ~Amber one night in a bar.
  14. a visit by MoceanWorker · · Score: 1

    this would have been perfect 5 months ago when i got a visit from 2 "detectives"

    but i wonder what would happen if i took a picture of them or started videotaping them... my guess is they'd beat the shit out of me ;-)

    --


    "The ones who dont do anything are always the ones who try to pull you down" -- Henry Rollins
    1. Re:a visit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wich (at least in the US) would add another point to your ACLU countersuit. It sucks to have a broken nose... but a few mill can buy a lot of plastic surgery : )

    2. Re:a visit by arkanes · · Score: 1

      Very true - police officers tend to get REALLY pissy when you do things like ask them for their badge numbers and the name of their superior. They also tend to get quite testy in the presence of camerasa, COPS not withstanding. It's the people with the power who most resent having power used against them - which is why we need signifigant civilian oversight on law enforcement.

  15. What exactly is 'transmiting live'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't see a live feed anywhere on the page, funny also how the guy who made up this day has given it three different names (National Accountability Day, Shootback day and WSD)...
    And each has separate faqs...

    The "previous contest entries" (3 or 4 of them all looking as if taken by the same guy) aren't
    credited witht the names of the entrants...

    This smells kinda like a joke.

    1. Re:What exactly is 'transmiting live'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Steve Mann doesn't wear a camera + computer 24/7...I worked with him for a year.

  16. Being connected means losing privacy by KILNA · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I'm about to be one of those snooty people who points out the hypocracy of the Slashdot crowd, so I'll try to be brief. Do you want to be a part of a community or do you want to have privacy? It's a matter of degrees, but at the most basic level those two concepts are mutually exclusive. The deal is, if you interact with human beings, you lose privacy. The risk of being surveiled comes with the risk of going someplace. You can't be completely anonymous and live a normal life. Try getting a phone or car or decent internet access without a name. Part of being a memeber of the human race is to have an identity that other people, businesses and even your government can associate with you... and part of that identity is a face (which just might be photographed at any time if you happen to be out in the real world). Don't want your face on the Jumbotron? Watch the game on TV in your Y2K bomb shelter in Montana if you're all that concerned. :)

    --
    Error: PANTS NOT FOUND. Press <F1> to continue.
    1. Re:Being connected means losing privacy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True, but part of privacy is the the right to decide when and how much information to release to others. Indeed to be part of a community is to reveal something of yourself, and when we form personal relationships, we choose how much information and what to reveal to others.

      Surveillance removes such choice, and as you point out, any sort of technological interaction increasingly is removing our choice of what information to reveal to whom. Though it is this way, I don't think it has be be so.

    2. Re:Being connected means losing privacy by Pstrobus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      All true, the question is "how much?"

      How much surveilence is too much? How much privacy is too little? Is there a real benefit to this surveilence or am I "subject #23"

      I have a name and I have a history, you can learn these things from me by asking. If I choose to invite you into that level of closeness/community with me, I will share these things. My objection is simply that I want to have some say/control over how much data is gathered and how it is used.

      One of the big issues here is when is surveilence de-humanizing. In a small town, folks can know each others business and though there are busibodies, they are usually ignored by the population at large. Now we are dealing with semi-legal entities which want to know our business. A corporation is a piece of paper which is recognized by the courts as having standing as a 'person' humans in service of this 'person' want to watch us suspiciously.

      I will live with people and I will submit to a certain ammount of friendly inquiry into my life. I'm not all that interested in being suspected of $NefariousThings and watched like the criminal I am suspected of being.

      --
      "The conduct of neither [party], if strictly examined, will be irreproachable." -Elizabeth Bennet
    3. Re:Being connected means losing privacy by KILNA · · Score: 1

      Who says you're being suspected of nefarious things? You're just not that important. I don't mean this as a slam against you personally, every individual's data by itself just isn't that interesting. Information about a single individual (specifically data that can't be processed easily by machines, like pictures) is just not useful in any practical sense. The best data from a business standpoint isn't the fact that you personally like caffein, penguin-themed items, dilbert, and puzzle games. The useful information to a physical business who may be photographing you is the fact that there's a correlation (without regard to any underlying reason) so they can place the stuffed penguins near the stuffed dogberts, and maybe stock penguin caffeinated peppermints and stick those next to the rubick's cubes. A lot of extremists decry as "dehumanizing" the same things most reasonable people would call a convenience. Don't get me wrong, I think that some of the assumptions made about me based on agregates is annoying, and given the chance to avoid a nose-picking being captured on film, I'll take it... but dehumanizing? I don't think practical application of good marketing and security policies will be the next holocaust, simply because there's no benefit (not even a remote one) to the suspected organizations to start said holocaust.

      --
      Error: PANTS NOT FOUND. Press <F1> to continue.
  17. I don't understand... by mikey504 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Maybe I have a limited imagination, but I have trouble seeing how exactly the average citizen can "use" these cameras. It is likely that if we did find a way to use cameras which don't belong to us that we would be prosecuted for it.

    What I can imagine, though, is a scenario where once the system is in place, the scope of its use is gradually increased until it is being used not only in ways that are unacceptable, but also in ways we were specifically told it wouldn't be in the beginning.

    An example of this would be the "anti-terrorist" cameras installed all over London. These are now being used to detect and prosecute all sorts of lesser crimes. Of course, many people don't have a problem with that, but you have to be extremely careful where the lower bound gets set. Is that a nudie magazine in your pocket, visible in frames 237-512 when you crossed Market Street?

    Maybe you can't imagine any activites/liberties you presently indulge in which the government might eventually decide are nonsat, but my paranoia meter jumps a couple of clicks every time this stuff makes the news.

    1. Re:I don't understand... by Peaker · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Are you afraid of being seen with pornography?
      Last I checked, it wasn't a crime.
      If you're so paranoid about it being found out, put it in a bag first, but don't blame the cameras, as any Joe Schmoe can see you too.

      You cannot expect privacy in the street:

      If a camera can see you, so can a human eye.

      The only reason to fear being filmed by cameras is if you're planning on lying in your side of the story, hoping to have a word-against-word case, rather than a word-against-video. And then - what are you lying to protect?

    2. Re:I don't understand... by boydtel · · Score: 1

      PERSPECTIVE do any of the posters here have perspective? I -often- see people posting this "but you don't have anything to fear..." tripe. Now, I appreciate that this is a geek forum (so presumably skewed away from liberal arts/history backgrounds) but didn't any of you people have history in high school? Who popularized this "You have nothing to fear..." Big Lie?
      The point of resistance to these things isn't to save kiddie porn salesmen an inconvenience, it's to point out the obvious abusability of these systems. Yes, you like your government today. And here in the US people often whine about term limits but when it comes down to it they like their gov'mnt enough to keep voting the same people in.
      But you do not -know- the future. You do not -know- that your home will never be swept with a tyrranical fervor in the future (USSR, Germany, Laos, Vietnam, China on and on). So it is not "paranoid" to build governmental systems that would work poorly for tyrants. That is why (hypothetically) the US is built on three counter balancing branches of government, that's why the constitution here checks the powers of those balancing branches, that's why it is stupid to talk about powerful governmental systems (like the "anti terrorist" cameras in London) in these good soldier Schwiek terms. Was Jefferson "paranoid"? Did he have "something to hide"? No, he knew good government from bad government and he knew that inefficiencies (as some foolishly label our checks and balances) in the longest running experiment would ultimately make it strong. All IMO.

    3. Re:I don't understand... by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 1
      If a camera can see you, so can a human eye.

      Not necessarily, and that's the problem. You can be far away from any people, yet still viewable by a hidden camera, or telephoto lens.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    4. Re:I don't understand... by volkris · · Score: 1

      More cameras can also be used to keep the government honest. After all, if everyone knew how our local government was allowing the cable company to screw over customers in return for free premium services for themselves, some people would get mad and the next elections could actually go differently.

      Cameras, enough of them, will show the truth.

    5. Re:I don't understand... by crucini · · Score: 2
      PERSPECTIVE do any of the posters here have perspective? I -often- see people posting this "but you don't have anything to fear..." tripe.

      Well arguing the point verbally doesn't seem to get anywhere. I have yet to see a slashdotter write "Now I get it! Privacy really does matter!"

      Which seems to be (partly) the point of "sousveillance". Find those (in the real world) who are willing to defend their organization's surveilling ways, and point a camcorder at them. Find out if they're hypocrites.
  18. Warning: Clicking on story leads to typicality by EchoMirage · · Score: 2, Insightful

    So, here we another installment of the Citizens Against the [supposed] Big Brother, a "watchdog" group of paranoiaphiles dedicated to overthrowing whoever-it-is we're at odds with. The group promotes reverse surveillance (sousveillance!) and encourages people to generally reverse monitor various monolithic entities though such *coughing* ingenious methods as using the 1-800 how's-my-driving numbers, etc. While I'm sure that there are legitament reasons for "sousveillance," this is little more than another group of schizoid people who are convinced that every time you use an ATM, you're selling out to the Antichrist, and that yes, in fact, your neighbor's satellite dish actually is just a device that the FBI is using to watch your every move in your house.

    Give me a break, this type of paranoia is so vogue it's disgusting. There are real threats to civil liberties, but "sousveillance" isn't going to counteract them. Though the group claims they're turning the wheels of democracy, they would be more appropriately observed to be a factional group.

    Even if they're right, nobody in the paranoid realm has ever given me a good answer to the question, "Why should the government even care what you're doing?" If you pay your taxes, walk the dog, and tune into Must-See-TV on Thursdays, you're in line with the rest of society, and the government could really care less what you're doing. Even if you *gasp* use Linux or program computers, the government really isn't interested at all in what brand of toothpaste you buy from the grocery store.

    In related thoughts, there needs to be a Godwin's Law for 1984 references, such that a reference to "Big Brother" or other Orwellian terminology immediately invalidates what you're saying.

    1. Re:Warning: Clicking on story leads to typicality by An+Ominous+Coward · · Score: 2

      Godwin's Law states that any sufficiently long USENET thread will result in a comparison to Nazism. It says nothing about invalidating a message, nor should it. Call a spade a spade, and call a Nazi a Nazi.

    2. Re:Warning: Clicking on story leads to typicality by benedict · · Score: 2

      The answer is clear if you have a grasp of recent
      American history.

      The value to the authorities of widespread surveillance
      is not that they can or want to arrest everyone who
      smokes a joint. The value is that if someone becomes
      a pain in their collective ass, and it turns out that they
      smoked a joint, they can be neutralized.

      This isn't blithering paranoia. Just read any
      historical account of the New Left of the 1960s
      and 70s.

      --
      Ben "You have your mind on computers, it seems."
    3. Re:Warning: Clicking on story leads to typicality by Hostile17 · · Score: 2

      "Why should the government even care what you're doing?" If you pay your taxes, walk the dog, and tune into Must-See-TV on Thursdays, you're in line with the rest of society, and the government could really care less what you're doing.

      You are right, if you are being a good little consumer and behaving as the government wants you too, they will not care about you. They will let you watch TV, walk the dog, pay taxes and die and that life may suit you just fine. However, I would prefer my children and grandchildren to be brought up in a free and just society, not one were practicing ones constitutional right to free speech and disagreeing with the government will get you marked UnAmerican and a Terrorist Sympathizer.

      --
      Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power - Benito Mussoli
    4. Re:Warning: Clicking on story leads to typicality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, because historical accounts of the new left wouldn't ever be exagerated.

    5. Re: Warning: Clicking on story leads to typicality by elemental23 · · Score: 1

      Actually, it does.

      Godwin's Law prov.

      [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. However there is also a widely- recognized codicil that any intentional triggering of Godwin's Law in order to invoke its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful.

      --
      I like my women like my coffee... pale and bitter.
    6. Re:Warning: Clicking on story leads to typicality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I smoke marijuana daily. It helps keep me calm and focused on my work. I am highly productive, and if every you were to meet me, I doubt you'd suspect me of being "stoned". I tend to keep to myself most of the time, off programming in my own little world. Those who are close to me know me to have a strong (albeit unusual) value system and a great sense of humor. I am non-violent to the point of having given up animal products in my life, and my work is largely based around bringing technology to the lower socioeconomic classes.

      Despite all this, if I were to be caught on camera buying my usual monthly supply of marijuana, I would be facing 20 years in prison. I would be taken away from the work I love, and the community would lose one of its most valuable, productive members.

      There are others like me. We are free thinkers, artists, scientists. We are people who help make the world a better place. But will the people watching the monitors let us slide when they happen to catch one of us? I doubt it, and it scares me.

    7. Re: Warning: Clicking on story leads to typicality by naasking · · Score: 1

      Let's emphasize the important part:

      [...] There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress.

      It's not part of the original law, it's a practice a number of people adopted. So, strictly speaking, the previous poster is correct.

    8. Re:Warning: Clicking on story leads to typicality by EchoMirage · · Score: 1

      However, I would prefer my children and grandchildren to be brought up in a free and just society

      I completely agree. Notice I did not say *I* agree with those things. I do none of them myself (well, I pay my taxes) and I don't look favorably on people who's life consists of the mundane and the trivial. However, my point is that, if you're in that sleeper majority, the government doesn't give a hoot what you're up to most days.

      I also want my children to grow up free and just and atypical of the apathetic Western mentality. The difference between me and the "sousveillancers" is that I believe I will not have to go to extraordinary measures to ensure this: I have a degree of trust, maybe hope, that the state will afford myself and my children that liberty. If it will not, it will not be America.

    9. Re: Warning: Clicking on story leads to typicality by SkepTech · · Score: 0

      It's really disturbing that the maintainer of the tuxedo.org website has 'taken over maintenance' of the Jargon File. Who voted to let that guy take it over in the first place? There's been a gradual drift of said document (i.e. Hacking/Cracking now mean totally different things than they did to some of us in the 80's) that is just distressing.

      Do geeks really need someone inventing a chapter-and-verse for us to invoke? I certainly hope not.

    10. Re:Warning: Clicking on story leads to typicality by SkepTech · · Score: 0

      Does it scare you to think of not smoking marijuana daily?

      If so, does it scare you that it scares you to think of going without?

      What would change if you, say, practiced a form of meditation that gave you a similar 'high' but without chemical aids?

      I'm just asking, not accusing you of anything.

      I am certainly far too modest to claim that I am one of society's 'most valuable, productive members.' I think a dose of modesty would help you out a lot.

    11. Re:Warning: Clicking on story leads to typicality by benedict · · Score: 2

      If you read enough different accounts, and use
      your common sense, you can get a pretty good
      idea of what the real story is.

      I understand that reading books is frowned on around
      here if it keeps one from spending enough quality
      time with one's Playstation.

      --
      Ben "You have your mind on computers, it seems."
    12. Re:Warning: Clicking on story leads to typicality by stephanruby · · Score: 1
      "Even if they're right, nobody in the paranoid realm has ever given me a good answer to the question, "Why should the government even care what you're doing?" If you pay your taxes, walk the dog, and tune into Must-See-TV on Thursdays, you're in line with the rest of society, and the government could really care less what you're doing. "

      It's funny, I usually ask a similar question to make an opposite point.

      "If you're living in Nazi Germany or Iraq, why should you care about Freedom?" If you pay your taxes, go to work on time, and stay sober. Hitler and Saddam Hussein should consider you a model citizen. Souldn't they? Dictators are not stupid, they're just working for the common good of the country.

      Stephan

      Freedom Right to do Wrong

  19. Snow crash by quatto+von+jebus · · Score: 1

    Does this remind anyone else of the guys in SnowCrash that wore all the surveillance gear. They walked around and gathered data from basically anywhere and tried to sell it. What were they called? Its been such a long time since I read the book Also I think Ive heard CmndrTaco mention them occasionally, but not in the same vein as this "Sousveillance" idea/scheme.

    It does sound interesting, but are not cops legally entitled to use violence against you and you cannot exercise any violence against them? So I would imagine that if you were to go and start taking pictures and such wouldnt the cops simply hit you on your head and take you to jail for being a nuisance?

    1. Re:Snow crash by SealBeater · · Score: 1

      Gargoyles were what they were called. Even with cameras, cops have been known
      to either turn them off or cover them up right before they started whupping
      somebody's ass.

      SealBeater

      --
      -- Its survival of the fittest...and we got the fucking guns!!!
    2. Re:Snow crash by boydtel · · Score: 1

      Dunno where you live but in the United States cops are emphatically NOT allowed to just start whupping somebody's ass. In Beautiful Seattle Washington, a cop came across two young ladies who were filming from inside their car as they drove down a closed street (during WTO riots). I have no patience for the rioters but in this case, where the cop improperly hosed down the inside of their car when he saw the camcorder) he was disciplined (I think he's sans a career at this point but can't find the data right now) and the two ladies are now fairly wealthy thanks to the tax paying sheeple er, folks of Seattle (hey, you elect a mayor like Schell you get what you voted for).
      Footage of a cop running up to you right before your camcorder dies makes for pretty compelling evidence in after action civil suits. All IMO

    3. Re:Snow crash by arkanes · · Score: 1

      It's true that they aren't allowed to just go whupping someones ass, but barring MAJOR issues being made about it, it's rare for anything to happen - relatively minor roughing up is pretty common. And yes, fighting back in any way against a police officer is a felony (assaulting a police officer), even if he's busy beating you.

    4. Re:Snow crash by SealBeater · · Score: 2

      Dunno where you live but in the United States cops are emphatically NOT
      allowed to just start whupping somebody's ass.


      Of course not, but I do happen to live in the United States, born and raised in
      Washington DC and I can tell you quite assuredly that even tho cops are
      NOT allowed to whup someone's ass, they can and often times
      do. In my hometown of Washington DC, there have been several cases of police
      brutality. I have witnessed with my own eyes, a person being assaulted by 2
      police officers, and after about 15 minutes of being beaten, (not resisting,
      mind you, the guy was basically huddled down in a doorway covering his head) he
      started to fight back, more in an attempt to get away then to cause harm. This
      resulted in about 15 cops arriving on the scene, standing shoulder to shoulder
      obscuring the view, while 3 more cops proceeded to "whup his ass". When I made
      my previous statement, I was referring to an incident where a couple of police
      officers were assaulting a motorist. What made the incident memorable was that
      one of the police officers had forgotten to turn off his dash camera (which
      recorded part of the incident) and went back to turn it off. I can dig up the
      incident if anyone wishes, I believe it happened in Florida. Check http://www.hrw.org/reports98/police/
      for more reports of this nature. Sorry to have made such a lengthy post,
      but it needed to be said.

      Also see here
      [http://www.copcrimes.com/] for more info.

      SealBeater

      --
      -- Its survival of the fittest...and we got the fucking guns!!!
    5. Re:Snow crash by SealBeater · · Score: 1

      Damn, messed up the last url, even with preview. Here it is.
      [http://www.copcrimes.com/]

      SealBeater

      --
      -- Its survival of the fittest...and we got the fucking guns!!!
    6. Re:Snow crash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I have witnessed with my own eyes, a person being assaulted by 2
      police officers, and after about 15 minutes of being beaten, (not resisting,
      mind you, the guy was basically huddled down in a doorway covering his head) he
      started to fight back, more in an attempt to get away then to cause harm. This
      resulted in about 15 cops arriving on the scene, standing shoulder to shoulder
      obscuring the view, while 3 more cops proceeded to "whup his ass".


      You know, one day something like that is gonna happen--police beating someone on a city street--and then someone, a relative, a friend, maybe just a guy who has just had enough, is gonna walk up and open up on the bastards with a machinegun. And then there's gonna be a lot of dead cops. And when their buddies arrive to "restore order" (read: get revenge), there will be lots more dead cops and lots of dead civillians. No more rioting--all out war. Think Tiennamen Square was bad? Imagine mass arrests of ghetto dwellers, napalm raids on Housing Projects, truck bombs detonating outside of police stations. Yeah, I know, I know, it can't ever happen here. Not in the good old U.S.A. Well, bullshit. You push people hard enough, they will one day push back.

  20. what are we trying to hide? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    good people doesnt have to hide anything, except weed, pr0n , warez, mp3s and pictures with a lover ;)

  21. Freedom of Authority? by Renraku · · Score: 1

    Why are you people scared to watch the people that watch us? Shouldn't THEY be watched more than us to begin with, since they are given such power? If we're getting arrested for making sure everything goes fairly, then I no longer have faith in whichever governing body is responsible for that kind of thing.

    --
    Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
  22. ShutTheF*Up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    "...In fact some have even gone so far as to say that they've felt more frightened of the soldiers of their own armed forces than of the so-called ``terrorists''."


    This is a disgusting statement. You are implying that murderous, civilian shredding fanatics are not terrorists, and that soldiers from the industrialized west are. Go tell that to the bumper crop of single parent families in NYC this holiday season, you gutless wonder.


    Suggestion: Please go to [insert shithole country here] so you can test this theory with some empirical data.

    Lab1: Go up to some Sudanese Islamic slave traders, and start taking pictures with your webcam... Maybe you can offer to put their slaves up on ebay? Oh, and be sure to tell them you are either Christian or Jewish.
    Record what happens next.


    "It has often been said that the true causes of terrorism are oppression, bad foreign policy, and secrecy, rather than privacy."


    Said by who exactly? Whiny EU socialists? Apologists for radical practitioners of wahabibist Islam? Pig ignorant ditch diggers in Yemen? Assinine conspiracy theorists who can't bear the idea a culture which has been irrelevant since the 12th century produces an overabundance of illiterate, lice-infested psychopaths? Get a life shithead.

    1. Re:ShutTheF*Up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You sack of shit.

      Would cameras all over the place have prevented 9/11? No. Butr i'll tell you what would have - people doing their jobs properly - government imposing even half decent security, instead of giving in to industry lobbying/bribing to help the airlines keep their costs down. The actual airlines doing their jobs by abiding by decent security rules and regulations. And the actual workers (who are probably all on a minimum wage pittance of a salary) actually bothering to check the people getting on planes, rather than sitting on their fat ugly arses, eating donuts and watching jerry springer.

  23. disturbed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Am I the only on who's bothered by the fact that most of the replies state that if you take pictures of a camera then somebody will beat the shit out of you, or arrest you? Note the camera is taking a picture of you why shouldn't you be able to take a picture of it? Dosen't it bother anyone that we, myself included , accept this as an almost fact?

  24. document police brutality, sexual harassment by wagadog · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If you're gathering evidence that relies on tone of voice to document wrongdoing there's nothing like a tape recorder. And if you're gathering evidence that relies on gesture and facial expression to document wrongdoing there's nothing like a pinhole camera.

    In fact, digital video cameras is how the human rights abuses of the Taliban were first documented by RAWA .

    But pick your battles, carefully, kids. This isn't a contest to see who can be the most annoying to security people who are doing their jobs honorably.

  25. As a followup... by Tsar · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I think wearcam.org should send someone down the street knocking on people's doors, asking why their peepholes only work one way.

    Come on, guys. It's simple economics. If a store wants to reduce losses due to theft, they install cameras. Or they install domes that look like cameras. If you're going to be insulted about that, why aren't you insulted that you can't leave without going through the registers, or that they lock the door after hours, or that the "Employees Only" areas are only for employees? Why not require retailers to move their entire stock outside under a large awning, and turn their backs to us to show how much they trust their customers?

    Come on, dude, you're living in a paranoiac techno-Robin-Hood fantasy that would have been only moderately tolerated even before 9/11. Now, your implication that the security guys in Wal-Mart are worse than the terrorists who blew up WTC, makes your opinion worth less than sludge.

    1. Re:As a followup... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um, dude, peepholes ARE two way.

    2. Re:As a followup... by Mister_IQ · · Score: 1

      I think you've missed the point. The protest isn't against Cameras per se but against their ubiquity in our lives and our growing insensitivity to the monitoring of our movements and actions.

      It's not about harassing Wal-Mart guards, it's about making the general population think about questions like:

      1) Why exactly don't they want me videotaping them, but they can videotape me?

      2) In what other ways am I being watched/monitored/tracked? Should I care? (GPS enabled cell phones, anyone? M$Passport anyone?)

      3) How much is enough rights to give up for the sake of security?

    3. Re:As a followup... by Tsar · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's not about harassing Wal-Mart guards,

      That's good, because he's just harassing salespeople from the looks of things.

      1) Why exactly don't they want me videotaping them, but they can videotape me?

      Because it's their store, and they're responsible to the owner to make sure that, though anyone can come in and freely handle millions of dollars' worth of goods that doesn't (yet) belong to them, the employees won't let too much of it walk out unpaid for. Just because someone works in a place that uses video security doesn't mean they want, or deserve, to see themselves on a 'gotcha!' website.

      And conversely, if this fellow posts his videotape of Sears employees, does that make it okay for Sears employees to post whatever tape they have of him, or of any of us?

      2) In what other ways am I being watched/monitored/tracked? Should I care? (GPS enabled cell phones, anyone? M$Passport anyone?)

      He could make a better case for this by attacking these issues directly, rather than claiming that storecams are akin to terrorism. Now more than ever, that sort of rhetoric will lose credibility for his 'cause' quicker than anything.

      3) How much is enough rights to give up for the sake of security?

      Store cameras aren't about giving up rights, any more than my home security system limits your freedom of movement. If you don't want to go in, just don't go in. Our society is free to bankrupt companies with unpopular business practices simply by denying them our trade. Simple, isn't it? But before you ask how we get everyone to boycott Wal-Mart, let me suggest that nobody really cares that they're videotaping. In December 2001, it's just not that big an issue.

      Someday we may have to accept the fact that if nobody else seems concerned about our cause, it may indicate that our cause is only important to us, and not that everyone else is an idiot.

    4. Re:As a followup... by crucini · · Score: 2
      In December 2001, it's just not that big an issue.

      We are at an interesting inflection point in surveillance systems. I worked on engineering several such systems through the mid-90's, and the only thing really changing was that cameras got smaller, cheaper and better. Storage was always on VHS time-lapse, because computer storage was too expensive. Tapes were rotated on a cycle based on legal or liability archive needs.

      In other words, these systems were great for providing a record of an incident after it occurred. If no incident occurred, the tape would get reused because nobody really wanted hours of repetitive footage.

      But increasingly powerful computers are starting to enable some extraction of data from the raw video before it is lost. For example, facial recognition could turn that unwieldy bank of video feeds into a list of people with locations and speeds. You could put a camera at each register (which they should do anyway, for an anti-fraud record of check/credit card users) and use it to tie faces to names.
      There are more benign applications - a retail analysis company has software that will process camera feeds and yield statistics about the effectiveness of merchandise displays. This seems harmless to me because once the raw video is gone, all that's left is aggregate data.

      Anyhow, I just want to emphasize that we haven't had to think much about commercial surveillance because the technology didn't permit any really interesting applications. Computers are changing that. We will be faced with some tough choices.
    5. Re:As a followup... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think your missing the point. To hell with the stores, they can do whatever they please. Its the 10000 cameras along all the expressways and in public streets that has me in an uproar...

    6. Re:As a followup... by Erasmus+Darwin · · Score: 2
      "If you're going to be insulted about that, why aren't you insulted that you can't leave without going through the registers, or that they lock the door after hours, or that the "Employees Only" areas are only for employees?"

      Unlike cameras, your other examples don't infringe on the tenuous (and poorly defined) personal right to privacy. What this guy's doing (with admittedly questionable implementation) is to highlight the privacy infringement going on. He's not forcing it to stop. He's not claiming it should be outlawed. He's just using videotaping to bring attention to videotaping, which has a certain poetic justice to it.

      Now if a lot of people feel uncomfortable with such videotaping when it's pointing out to them, and if he gets sufficient media coverage, then companies will be forced to react to the negative publicity. If a lot of people don't care about such videotaping, then nothing'll happen.

      In short, it's a rallying call for an issue that everyone's already semi-aware of, but which people may not have really thought about. It's also even more of an issue now. Just look at a recent "Ask Slashdot", where someone wanted to indefinitely archive footage from over 1000 cameras. Even though the application there may or may not have been a privacy infringing one, the technology is definitely there to exacerbate the privacy problem.

  26. Does one dare to hope? by Robber+Baron · · Score: 2
    ...I'm not suggesting that the cameras be mounted on the floor, looking up...


    Rats...

    --

    You're using her as bait, Master!

    1. Re:Does one dare to hope? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you new to Linux?

  27. You've missed the point... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The point is who is watching the watchers - if they are putting cameras behind mirrors in Sears and WalMart - what is to stop them mpeg-ing some chick trying on some swim suit and sharing it on the 'net. What if that is your girlfriend or daughter in the changing room? Where's the accountability?

  28. It takes a troll... by Strollin+Troll · · Score: 0

    ...to spot another troll! No food for you!

    --

    Come lets troll...troll across the board!

    1. Re:It takes a troll... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is not trolling to attack the author's moral idiocy. I am not trying to shock people into replying.

      I am simply trying to expose that the authors of this initiative sound like apologists for theocratic facism.

  29. A better way to hurt CCTV operators (UK only) by joebp · · Score: 2
    This is a good idea, but there's another way to hurt CCTV operators in the UK which doesn't require a camcorder.

    It may well, however, require a small fee. This is defined in the DPA as a maximum of £10.

    Go to a shop (only do this in big chains, no-one wants to hurt independents). Go when it's busy. Very busy. Make sure they have plenty of CCTV cameras. Make sure you get in as many of them as possible. This increases your impact.

    Then, go to an employee. Under the DPR's `Code of Practice,' `All staff should be aware of individuals' rights.' If not, ask to see the `Data Protection Controller' or, the Manager.

    You may well need to fill out a Data Protection Subject Access form, or write a letter with proof of identity to the Shop's Data Controller.

    You are entitled:

    to be told if any personal data are held about you AND, if so:
    to be given a description of the data;
    to be told for what purposes the data are processed and
    To be told the recipients or the classes of recipients to whom the data may have been disclosed.

    Also:
    to be given a copy of the information with any unintelligible terms explained;
    to be given any information available to the controller about the source of the data;

    So, they'll be required to give you copies of information they hold about you. You probably don't want this, but the administrative burden is the aim here.

    If they don't provide the said details with 40 days, complain to the DPR and they will be likely to be fined.

    1. Re:A better way to hurt CCTV operators (UK only) by leastsquares · · Score: 1

      Nice idea, but:

      This is just plain wrong. "Anonymous" data is not covered by the data protection act. The CCTV frames would only become covered when they link your image to your identity. And even then there are suppliments to the 1984 DPA which provide exceptions, i.e. faces of suspected football hooligans can be stored.

      Good waste of £10.

  30. Re: Missed the point? I don't think I did. by Tsar · · Score: 3, Interesting

    You post the question "Where's the accountability?" — anonymously?

    Did you see the Sousveillance video? He's not doing exposés of concealed cameras in dressing rooms; he's strolling through department stores, asking employees idiotic questions about the "mysterious dark domes" in the ceiling as if they were part some massive coverup, and none of the poor idiots (non-University of Toronto CE students) around him were totally unaware that they were being watched in a department store. It inspires no social change (except perhaps more stores banning video cameras), and has no effect outside of feeding his overinflated ego. This is nothing more than stupid camera tricks posing as citizen activism.

    While we're on the subject, let's throw it out to the group—how would you like this guy to walk into your employer's business and start following you around with a camcorder? "Why do I have to have a password to use one of these computers? What are those weird white boxes with red lights in the corners of the ceiling? Why is the server room locked? Why did you call the police?" Seems pretty juvenile when you think about it.

  31. welcome to communism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Its interesting that the same people who used to whine and bitch how the Soviet Union used to keep tabs on its people think that they do not need those privacy rights here.

    Why do the 1984 references bother you so much?

    Id be more worried that a third of the country things that torture should be allowed in some cases. Or that most of the people think that assasinations against 'bad guys' is justified...
    THAT is much graver problem.
    If one govt allows assassinations, then why shouldnt a foreign country do the same?
    If the US is justified in killing Saddam, Khadaffi, blowing up a TV station or whoever, then Im pretty sure that one of the millions of poeple who have had relatives killed by US bombings these past 3 decades figures that they to should be able to kill the US leader (not that it would make any difference). We might try to justify murder but so can everyone else...and no one does murder like the US.

    If I was you, id go back and take a gander at 1984 again and see how ahead of its time and dead on Orwell was. Not even in his wildest dreams would he had believed the state of the sad and pathetic propaganda machine called the free media.

    750,000 people got arrested for pot in the US last year (88% for possesion) but less than a handful of papers even mentioned it.

    Almost 40% of young black males between 18-35 are either in jail, parole or in the system ....welcome to the new kinder South Africa.
    (the US attorney general claims there is no racial profiling in the states)

    The US has the worlds largest prison population in the world. 1 out of 32 americans is in jail or on probation.

    The differences between the old USSR and the present day US are minimal....
    Of course, just keep whistling as you walk by the graveyard, at least it'll make you feel better.
    Or better yet, stay tuned to CNN for the 'truth.'

    zeke

    1. Re:welcome to communism by njdj · · Score: 1

      On the whole an insightful comment, but it goes too far when it says

      The differences between the old USSR and the present day US are minimal....

      I don't think you realize quite how unpleasant the old USSR was. The US still has a long way to go before it gets there. But if people continue being complacent, it will continue in that direction. "All those in favor of losing their rights, do nothing".

  32. Re: 2-way peepholes vs. 2-way mirrors by Tsar · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yes, you can get a limited view (10 or so) of a room through the distal end of a peephole, but it is essentially a one-way device.

    In a similar manner, you can see through a one-way mirror by reducing ambient light as much as possible and placing a high-powered light flush against the surface of the mirror. See, if the guy at wearcam.org had constructed such a setup, with a rubber-gasketed camera and flash which he used to take pictures of the folk watching us in department-store dressing rooms, and filled a website with those photos (preferably alongside statements, denials, and changes of policy from the stores in question), then he'd be performing what would arguably be a public service.

    As it is, he's filming camera domes as if they were UFO's and salespeople as if they were MIB's. For all his bravado, he isn't coming close to anything like a controversy.

    Is this how I'm supposed to burn karma?

  33. Re: Missed the point? I don't think I did. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Again, you have missed the point.

    1) I posted anonymously because I don't have a login ID for slashdot, and I can't be bothered to get one.

    2) There are places where it is necessary for cameras - look at some of the terrorists in london who were caught thanks to the cameras watching the streets (bombing of the admiral duncan pub which killed and seriously injured lots of people). Yes, department stores need cameras to protect their stock - but they need to do it in an accountable way. If I walk into a department store and get caught on their camera going about my normal business, with nothing to hide, that doesnt mean I consent to that footage being misused - and by misused I mean being placed somehow into the public domain. The individual has the right to have his privacy maintained. Going back to the changing room example, it does happen, but it shouldn't. What recourse does the victim have?

  34. Read my post again, dillweed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am commenting on the outrageous moral relativist claims of these idiots who made up this stupid exercise, not the policy of cameras in public forums, which I oppose in general, but not in airports and other places of entry without any expectation of privacy. Private, encrypted communications are a readily defensible boundary of privacy. You cannot say the same of the public street.

    Oh and BTW, I would be willing to bet that I was fighting for free encryption (2 of 3 federal cases) before you even had an internet connection, (Allow me to infer you're commonwealth background by your use of the term "arse") you useless, holier-than-thou EU jackwad. If you're british, I hope you're enjoying the RIP act and cameras on every corner. If you're australian, I hope you're enjoying escrowed encryption and idiotic security laws. If you're canadian, I hope you're enjoying your fascist little hate speech laws.

    1. Re:Read my post again, dillweed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're obviously American, so I hope you're enjoying your donuts, and good luck for when you go on Jerry Springer to find out that your real dad is actually your mothers father. Oh, and make sure you lock up your trailer-home when you go out.

    2. Re:Read my post again, dillweed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll just let you get on and enjoy the DMCA, RIAA, MPAA, Carnivore, Echelon... and obvioiusly the most intelligent yank ever born, your president, George 'dubya' Bush.

    3. Re:Read my post again, dillweed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess I hit a sore spot. Good point on locking the trailer-home. Locking your stuff up is a good way to ensure your privacy, especially when you don't have to give a copy of your keys to your local tax collector.

      I'm sure you don't have to worry about crimes against property since these fall in direct proportion to soaring crimes against people in countries which practice stringent gun control. (e.g. the tripling of home invasions/rape/murder in australia after disarming the populace.) My advice is to make sure you lock your government subsidized apartment when you are home.

    4. Re:Read my post again, dillweed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks, I'm all torn up about the DCMA, which will be found unconstitutional once it winds its way to the Supreme Court, thanks to that little thing called the first amendment, which you need, BTW. Carnivore will fall by the same knife.

      Echelon is not our problem, it is yours, and it is only possible thanks to the collaboration of the British, Canadian, Australian, and New Zealand intelligence agencies. If you don't want to be spied on than use encryption. Oh that's right-You aren't allowed to. I'm sorry, I forgot you live in a police state, where all your freedoms hang on the whim of your socialist masters.

      And as for GWB, you are obviously completely ignorant of conservative philosophy. Evidently we need to elect more MBA's and less tree/(bimbo?)-hugging Lawyers, and anyone who would claim that GWB is stupid is obviously not paying attention.

      Bad socialist, no soup for you. (Obscure american reference you will never understand).

    5. Re:Read my post again, dillweed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, what a creative post. I love it when one person says the same thing back. It brings me back to those days of "My dad can beat up your dad." "No, my dad can beat up your dad!"

      Classic.

    6. Re:Read my post again, dillweed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh I see, you can't distinguish between your belief that Americans live in crime infested trailerparks with my corroborated facts that crimes against persons soar in direct opposition to property crimes when mandatory gun confiscation occurs.

      I'm sorry, I'll use simpler words next time so even a poorly (state) educated eurotrash idiot like you can understand.

  35. I think I am the first to say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Merry Christmas!

    And before anyone says it's not christmas yet - well, it is in GMT, which is where I am. :p

  36. Re:you stupid shithead by talonyx · · Score: 1

    I live in Canada, but I'm Romanian. I'm also an atheist, and a libertarian.

    I don't know what your response is supposed to mean. I don't hate Russians, I don't follow the politics of my homeland anymore (why should I?)

  37. Cute, but don't try that on my watch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As others have mentioned already, taking pictures of security personnel is a sure fire way to get locked up. On a government installation you're looking at even stiffer penalties. I work at one of these installations, and a large part of my responsibilities comes with standing force protection watches. If anyone comes too close with cameras, binoculars or other surveillance equipment, you asume they are gathering information to do you harm, and respond appropriately. If someone could get that close to us (which they couldn't) and attempt to harass any of my watchstanders like that, I wouldn't hesitate to call away a security alert even though such action would do potentially fatal harm to this misguided individual. I'd take chance over having some militant fundamentalist gather the last bit of crucial information needed to repeat what happened to the USS Cole.

  38. Be careful... by TheSHAD0W · · Score: 2

    If you're going to do sousveillance on the Government, you might wind up like Jim Bell.

  39. But there is a way to beat that. by El+Camino+SS · · Score: 1


    The definition of privacy, at least in the USA where I reside, has the words reasonable expectation of usually put before it. IF the police deaprtments have used telephoto lenses without a search warrant, then it looks like they are using unusual methods of search. Most police do not sit with binoculars, so therefore, using advanced technology on minor crimes can usually be considered inadmissable in court, and that being the primary evidence of apprehension, be thrown out of court.

    But if they are speifically looking for you, then you are, as they say, up shit creek without a paddle.

  40. This guy is just a jerk. This isn't a story. by Silver222 · · Score: 5, Informative
    Watch the video. This guy is just acting like a jerk, and the people he talks to pretty much just laugh at him. Like a lot of people who frequent Slashdot, he had some good ideas, but he is too much of an ass to get them across in an effective way.


    Does he have a valid concern? Yes, I think he does. I'm not thrilled with the pervasiveness of cameras either. But how does harrasing the clerk at the register change anything?

    --
    "It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom. Keep that in mind at all times." Bill Hicks
  41. I know I'll get modded down here. by El+Camino+SS · · Score: 1

    Dude, I wish I had some points for you.

    Alas, I don't I think that you really aren't trolling on this one. If you are, hell, you deserve the points for being an excellent troll.

    Really people. If there is this big conspiracy, then where is the proof, other than kook words on the kook internet with no pictures, no concrete evidence but a ton of kook ranting? What posesses a person to believe them more than anyone else without proof? In almost any side of an issue, both lie. I want some dang evidence. Independent evidence of Big Brother.

    Where have all of your liberties run off to compared to the massive slaughters that the populations of *say* China, Russia, or dictator held lands have suffered? The things that politicians are doing in the United States today might also be the result of the one thing that we complain about on Slashdot all the time...

    Ignorance of technology. With a lack of independent voice in tech issues, they listen to companies. The movement should be independent. I know, we've been complaining about this forever... it is a legit idea.

    Make action with not the seemingly exciting "counter-terrorist" agenda setting weirdness, but the boring, write-your-congressmen ways that the rich corporations beat over your heads every day. Granted, sign this petition is not as fun as storming a mall with security cameras, but it gets more action and less arrests.

    It is not very slashdottian to say this, but your rights are not disappearing, they are being adjusted. They have been adjusted of every session of congress since it was founded. So please get out there and readjust them back in a way that you think is right. Real concrete movements to counteract real concrete laws. It isn't glamorous, but it does work. And it doesn't require harassin' working stiffs on the job.

    1. Re:I know I'll get modded down here. by Junior+J.+Junior+III · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yeah, we should wait until Big Brother *exists* before we start doing something about it. Because raising the issues of freedom and rights only makes sense *after* you have been oppressed.

      --
      You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
    2. Re:I know I'll get modded down here. by El+Camino+SS · · Score: 1


      Now that is amazing. Someone can get higher points than my original post with an incomplete thought... GREAT. I didn't say here is my comment... I said that we should apply our force into peaceful, political action that can really change something.

      This guy sneers, and gets points, because he agrees with all of the conspiracy theorists... and believes that right now, someone is sitting behind a mahogany desk making a concerted effort to take away his rights.

      *Sigh* If only they really cared that much.

      Honestly, if I could get points through sarcastic remarks, my Karma would still not be that great.

    3. Re:I know I'll get modded down here. by Junior+J.+Junior+III · · Score: 2

      I haven't been modded up for that comment; I start out with 2 points because I have high karma points.

      Anyway, I wouldn't say that I *agree* with all the conspiracy theorists. (I happen to think that they have some valid concerns, but that's a different matter.) What I was trying to say was that you *can* take action to try to stop things before they've happened. And that's generally the preferred time to take action.

      Why wait for 1984 to come true? Won't it be too late by that time?

      And if it doesn't and never will or never can, as perhaps you seem to believe, then what harm is there in some crackpots wasting their energy rallying on about it? Doesn't it essentially become just another trekkie sideshow if Orwell's dark prophecy proves to bear no fruit?

      One final correction... I wasn't sneering at anyone. If anything, I was smirking. Didn't mean to make you feel personally disrespected with my comment, there -- sorry.

      --
      You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
  42. Re: Missed HIS point or YOURS? by Tsar · · Score: 2

    Steve Mann's site doesn't even mention misuse of dressing-room video. His only mention of anything similar is in a spiel for his "art exhibit" which included a mocked-up anthrax decontamination facility, which he apparently thought would be an ideal place for getting lots of pr0n video. As such, my response was to his site and stated purpose, not to yours, no matter how noble yours might be.

    When you say "department stores need cameras to protect their stock - but they need to do it in an accountable way," do you mean that if they misuse the video, they should be subject to lawsuits? Or are you saying that they should have a CorpWatch representative overseeing all videotape loading, unloading, and archiving? Does the corner 7/11 store need to hire one as well, since they have a camera behind the register? Where do you want to go with this?

    "What recourse does the victim have?" The same recourse that they would have if a peeping tom videotaped them at home and posted mpeg's on the Internet—except that in the store's case, it would be much easire to prove liability, and to get a lucrative settlement. Which is why stores are very careful with such tapes, and only show them in the executive breakroom, where they belong.

    "I posted anonymously because I don't have a login ID for slashdot, and I can't be bothered to get one." Yet you have the time to post anonymously ad nauseum? I'm simply dumbfounded by this statement.

    Go in peace, my child.

  43. Re:you stupid shithead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can accept that you're an atheist, but a libertarian, have you hit your head?

  44. You know.. by Proteus+Child · · Score: 1

    ..it would have been nice to know about this before I finished my last-minute Christmas shopping... oh, well. Next year, perhaps.

    --

    Proteus' Child

    Doko ni datte; hito wa, tsunagette iru.

  45. Trigger words, stop surveilling me. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Waihopai, INFOSEC, Information Security, Information Warfare, IW, IS, Priavacy, Information Terrorism, Terrorism Defensive Information, Defense Information Warfare, Offensive Information, Offensive Information Warfare, National Information Infrastructure, InfoSec, Reno, Compsec, Computer Terrorism, Firewalls, Secure Internet Connections, ISS, Passwords, DefCon V, Hackers, Encryption, Espionage, USDOJ, NSA, CIA, S/Key, SSL, FBI, Secert Service, USSS, Defcon, Military, White House, Undercover, NCCS, Mayfly, PGP, PEM, RSA, Perl-RSA, MSNBC, bet, AOL, AOL TOS, CIS, CBOT, AIMSX, STARLAN, 3B2, BITNET, COSMOS, DATTA, E911, FCIC, HTCIA, IACIS, UT/RUS, JANET, JICC, ReMOB, LEETAC, UTU, VNET, BRLO, BZ, CANSLO, CBNRC, CIDA, JAVA, Active X, Compsec 97, LLC, DERA, Mavricks, Meta-hackers, ^?, Steve Case, Tools, Telex, Military Intelligence, Scully, Flame, Infowar, Bubba, Freeh, Archives, Sundevil, jack, Investigation, ISACA, NCSA, spook words, Verisign, Secure, ASIO, Lebed, ICE, NRO, Lexis-Nexis, NSCT, SCIF, FLiR, Lacrosse, Flashbangs, HRT, DIA, USCOI, CID, BOP, FINCEN, FLETC, NIJ, ACC, AFSPC, BMDO, NAVWAN, NRL, RL, NAVWCWPNS, NSWC, USAFA, AHPCRC, ARPA, LABLINK, USACIL, USCG, NRC, ~, CDC, DOE, FMS, HPCC, NTIS, SEL, USCODE, CISE, SIRC, CIM, ISN, DJC, SGC, UNCPCJ, CFC, DREO, CDA, DRA, SHAPE, SACLANT, BECCA, DCJFTF, HALO, HAHO, FKS, 868, GCHQ, DITSA, SORT, AMEMB, NSG, HIC, EDI, SAS, SBS, UDT, GOE, DOE, GEO, Masuda, Forte, AT, GIGN, Exon Shell, CQB, CONUS, CTU, RCMP, GRU, SASR, GSG-9, 22nd SAS, GEOS, EADA, BBE, STEP, Echelon, Dictionary, MD2, MD4, MDA, MYK, 747,777, 767, MI5, 737, MI6, 757, Kh-11, Shayet-13, SADMS, Spetznaz, Recce, 707, CIO, NOCS, Halcon, Duress, RAID, Psyops, grom, D-11, SERT, VIP, ARC, S.E.T. Team, MP5k, DREC, DEVGRP, DF, DSD, FDM, GRU, LRTS, SIGDEV, NACSI, PSAC, PTT, RFI, SIGDASYS, TDM. SUKLO, SUSLO, TELINT, TEXTA. 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  46. Re:This guy is just a jerk. This isn't a story. by fenix+down · · Score: 1

    That's right. He isn't really acomplishing anything. But he is very likely having a great deal of fun. The guy just feels the need to disguise that to some extent.
    It's fun to screw with people. Try it some time. Go down to the Bose store, and ask that chick if she wants to make out on that leather couch. Or, if you're old enough to make that inapropriate, try screaming "BACK THAT ASS UP!!!" to the next Chevy Suburban you see backing out of a parking space.
    Almost anything will work. It's fun. Try it.
    If you're lucky, maybe she'll accept (although, considering the forum...) or maybe the SUV will pump the brakes and make the back end bounce.
    The people in the video were pretty much just laughing at him. It was fun for everybody. And maybe they got some of his message in with it, but who really gives a fuck?

  47. Problems... obviously by Lord+Bitman · · Score: 1

    It's illegal to wear a mask in my city. I'm not the only one..
    .
    .

    --
    -- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
  48. Finally someone is doing something ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I would not like to live in the kind off sociaty that are always monitoring their citcens , but there is verry litle concrete work being caried out to stopp this from happening. The method is not important , whether you march the streets , go ghandi style (non cooperation) or take pictures of surveilence cams . The important thing is that many people , in some way , protest against a development they dont like. If many people does this , and it is expanded to other holidays as well , this could realy help stopp the development off a monitoring sociaty . I saw the post to late this year but i will go out and take a few pictures of surveilence cameras at newyears .

  49. Re:you stupid shithead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    The Chechians(sp) don't like Russians either.

    russian soldier killed.mpeg

    This is a closeup video of a russian getting his throat cut out.

  50. Re:WOW! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    or he could make up something that is more believable than a 5ghz processor from intel called a hexium or whatever he called it.. if does that, then there would be no need to pad the url because there would be hella people clicking that url because they are "impulse" clickers, kind of like how i'm an impulse buyer and an impulse parker in a parking lot.

  51. Sousveillance is stillborn by SiliconEntity · · Score: 1

    Ironically, just as technology has advanced to the point where distributed, grass-roots surveillance ("sousveillance") is becoming possible, it has simultaneously advanced to the point where faking video is equally becoming possible.

    Within a few years, unauthenticated video footage will be useless, because anyone will be able to conjure up whatever fakery they like. All those underground sousveillance cameras will be producing data which could have been made just as easily on a high end workstation.

    Only authenticated video will be trusted. That means that the police and government will trust their own video cameras and be able to use them at trial. But video records from private citizens will be no better than hearsay.

    Technology giveth, and technology taketh away. So it will always be.

  52. Way to ignore every other culture by alanjstr · · Score: 2

    Excuse me, but there are plenty of other religions all over the world, plenty of which the US has no problem with. Not to mention all the people IN the United States who aren't Christian. Jews, Muslims, Buddists, Pagans, and Wiccans unite and smite down this ignorant fool. I'm not disputing that today was a poor choice for this event, but saying the other religions of the world are miniscule is slanderous.

    1. Re:Way to ignore every other culture by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must be really new to Linux.

    2. Re:Way to ignore every other culture by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have no idea how this comment relates to the topic or the discussion, or how it got moderated to 2.

  53. Privacy in public. by fmaxwell · · Score: 2

    You all seem to have either forgotten, or been unaware of, the fact that there have been numerous cases of security cameras pointed into dressing rooms at department stores. A department store's desire to prevent theft does not outweigh someone's to privacy while trying on clothes in a dressing room. A person should not have to worry about whether some security guard is getting his rocks off watching them dress/undress.

    Every one of us has, at one time or another, scratched our a** or privates when we thought no one was looking. We've all had a finger up our nose at some point in our lives. Well, if I scratch my butt, it's not for the amusement of some Walmart rent-a-cop staring at monitors.

    What happens when some law enforcement agency subsidizes the cameras at a local shopping mall in exchange for copies of all videos produced from them?

    Stores should display privacy policies just like web sites do. Are the cameras manned or recorded? If they are recorded, how long are tapes stored and who maintains control of the tapes? Does the store guarantee that there are no cameras that can be pointed into dressing rooms and lavatories? Does the store have a policy that prohibits their employees from revealing non-criminal activity revealed by the cameras (e.g., public figure discreetly kissing someone other than spouse, man adjusting toupee, etc.)?

    I'm an old-fashioned liberal. I think that people's rights are more important than businesses' profits. I'd rather see *mart make a few million dollars less this year than to have them invade the privacy of people who are doing nothing more criminal than adjusting their underwear.

  54. I've got a solution. by EndersGame · · Score: 1

    I've got a simple solution. We convince some people to start surveillance-free businesses. I don't know what kind of idiot would actually start a surveillance-free kwikymart, but let's say you can convince someone to do it.

    Then we give everyone a choice. You can go where you might be watched and pay the regular price OR you can go to a surveillance-free store and pay 20-50% more. Of course, advertising that you are a surveillance-free store might make it even worse than a standard store and ease the pressure on the other stores.

    So if you are fine buying half as much stuff then you can support the surveillance-free effort. But the rest of us will just deal with cameras.

    I don't entirely disagree with the sentiment behind this effort, but I believe that it must be directed at the right targets.

    It's just a model.
    EndersGame

    1. Re:I've got a solution. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you are so full of it you stink. 20-50% that is pure bull___T that a video camera saves that much. It is a mild deterrent at best. In fact I enjoy screwing with the security people at local stores on a regular basis. I stare at video cameras, i find the blind spots they have and loiter ther euntil I see a customer wander around the corner. and then ask them where to find produxt X, it freaks the floor walkers that you know they are store employees. etc.. Yes, I intentionally annoy them, wasting their time. Oh the prices at these stores dont go up... funny that, by your logic the proces should increase by 10% because of me screwing with them.

  55. I'm a genious. Heres an idea. by CrazyJim0 · · Score: 1

    I'd code this up, but I'm not enough of an activist.

    Spoofzilla. Use a gnutella-alike protocol. You can spoof packets to any ip address running spoofzilla. This allows you to choose not to be classified by IP addresses...

    Heh.
    Also alows you to do DOS attacks, and get around your IRC ban.

  56. Oh my bad. He's just retarded by CrazyJim0 · · Score: 1

    Video camera footage is stuff back from dead kennedy's era. Tape the brutality when it occurs. And some people will loose their jobs. It works, whatever. It just keeps touch on the untouchables.

    I thought his intention was to actually meaningfully counter invasions of privacy... The only way to do that is to add more layers of privacy. My idea was aimed mainly at the FBI's main target... If you keep fighting where someone else is fighting, but doing it 10000x better, then you hold them back from other fields of war.

    Its like the prisoner struggling in vain through the jaildoor for the keys, when there are no walls. If you make sure the prisoner never realizes he could just walk around the door, then he stays trapped.

  57. Most people just don't care. by Talinom · · Score: 1

    The gradual acceptence of Security Cameras by the public seems to be rather insidious. People are convinced that cameras make them safer and are willing to give up rights in order to be safe (yes, please don't quote me Ben Franklin). Where is the data by an independent source showing the overall reduction in crime due to the cameras? As I recall, the police (at least in our area) state that the problem doesn't disappear, it just moves where the cameras are NOT.

    If crime is just moving around avoiding the cameras, then some will say that we need more cameras EVERYWHERE and then the evil criminals will have nowhere to hide. Is there any data showing that there is NO way this will happen (cost ineffective or otherwise) and that there would be no way that crime reduction would actually happen?

    The rhetoric that we are losing rights doesn't make a damn bit of difference to the average person. How can we show them that cameras can be a BAD thing? Showing them why losing our civil liberties over time will lead to a worse life may help a little tiny bit.

    Hell, if you know how to present your case even moderately well, you will be able to convince the average person that having a surveillance camera in their home is a GOOD thing.

    First you need to ask them how they feel about the effectiveness of cameras to deter crime. They will probably answer "I think that they are effective."

    Build on that. Ask them that if since they are so effective then they wouldn't mind more of them to monitor the idiots on the road and the areas that they go shopping and visiting at. They will probably answer "Yes".

    Again, build on that. Ask them if they would like to make their streets safer in their neighborhood by installing cameras. They will bleat "Yes". Ask them about installing a camera in front of their house to keep it safe and they will again answer "Yes".

    Inform them that the most common form of crime in the United States is domestic violence. Appeal to them how it rips apart families and causes pain and suffering. Ask them if they have watched the TV show "COPS" and cite examples.

    Now convince them that since it is such a major problem and that there is no way to protect those people that it might be best to install the cameras for the interm in previous offenders homes, just for safety mind you. They will grudgingly answer that it might be prudent.

    Now inform them that since there is no way to spot the offenders BEFORE or WHILE the first offense is comitted that it would be safest for the community for ALL people, including them, to have a camera in the house.

    I have had a person answer (and I quote here), "Yes, I see what you mean. That might be an idea that I can live with."

    Reread the previous quote. How in God's name are we going to get the average person to:
    A) Think about the consequences of their actions or inactions.
    B) Start caring about their civil liberties.
    C) Understand HOW this technology can be misused.
    D) Understand WHY this technology could be misused.
    E) Understand the need for people to watch the watchers. And have the PEOPLE watch THEM.

    How are we going to get the average person to start processing information with their brains rather than with their feelings?

    --
    "Giving money and power to governments is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys." - P.J. O'Rourke
  58. Wal-Mart fun by dbrian1 · · Score: 1
    My friends and I used to play this game. A bunch of us would go into walmart with a video camera (just ask the lady at the door to put a sticker on it). Go to the toy section and grab a few nerf balls. The idea is whoever has the camera is it. They run around with the camera, if they get pegged with a ball they have to give the camera to the next person. Makes for some good home movies. :-)

  59. Re:This guy is just a jerk. This isn't a story. by Mawbid · · Score: 1
    Not that he's necessarily correct, but he does address that argument:

    Another common criticism is that by simply shooting low-level clerks in department stores, we don't get to the true perpetrators of surveillance in higher places. Nothing could be further from the truth. Shooting at low level clerks creates a problem they can't deal with. The clerks then get their managers. The managers see the problem, and very quickly the matter escalates to head-office. The quickest way to get to speak with a manager is to photograph the low-level clerks. You get to speak to a manager much faster than if you merely ask to speak to a manager (in which case they often lie and claim that the manager is not present, or is in a meeting).

    --
    Fuck the system? Nah, you might catch something.
  60. Bull by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Document that claim.


    That is utter bullshit.

  61. All about Wearable Computing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A website all about Wearable Computing proudly designed to work in any browser.
    http://about.eyetap.org/

  62. Re:This guy is just a jerk. This isn't a story. by Erasmus+Darwin · · Score: 2
    "Watch the video. This guy is just acting like a jerk, and the people he talks to pretty much just laugh at him."

    While I can't watch the video here and the political ramblings on the webpage sometimes wandered off into the slightly kookier side of the issue, I wouldn't completely discount the value of acting like a jerk. Such behavior is just a level of refinement away from the brilliant social satire done by Michael Moore, the genius behind "TV Nation" and "The Awful Truth".

    One such example of his behavior (from the first season of "The Awful Truth") was heading to the headquarters of an insurance company that had refused to pay for a life-saving liver transplant for one of their policy holders. The policy contained two conflicted clauses, and the company had chosen the least expensive option (rejecting the claim). Attempts to resolve the matter via traditional grievance procedures had failed, and the person in need of the liver wouldn't have survived the multiple years necessary for a court battle.

    So Mr. Moore, with the man who needed the transplant, went to the office and gave out invitations to the man's inevitable funeral. He harassed employees. He made a pest of himself. He even held a mock funeral down in the street once getting thrown out. Obnoxious? Yes. Funny? Hell, yes. Effective? Well, the insurance company authorized the liver transplant, and the guy was in the audience (post transplant) for the host segment of the show.

    The point is that sometimes the deck is stacked so heavily in favor of large companies that acting like a jerk is your only resort. The result is to (hopefully) focus a large amount of negative publicity at the company so that they can't ignore it. Anything else tends to get lost in the crowd. A company could care less if one person writes a letter complaining about their use of video surveilance. But if that one person sits in a store and videotapes the surveilance system, in clear view of all the other shoppers, it's suddenly an incident that must be addressed.

    If that person then puts his/her videotape up on the web, you've just magnified that publicity. If that site gets slashdotted, kick the audience up another order of magnitude. If the footage is interesting enough (either via humor or insight) that you've get television coverage, your audience has skyrocketed, and the company is forced to respond.

    Still, sometimes acting like a jerk is just plain obnoxiousness, but if done right, it's the key to humorously getting your point across.

  63. Re:This guy is just a jerk. This isn't a story. by Silver222 · · Score: 1
    Yeah, but like you said, this is a level of refinement away. Comparing this guy to Micheal Moore is like comparing my golf game to Tiger Woods'. Sure, we're both hitting a small white ball. Nobody comes to see me play though :)

    --
    "It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom. Keep that in mind at all times." Bill Hicks
  64. Re:This guy is just a jerk. This isn't a story. by Silver222 · · Score: 1
    I didn't see that happen though. The clerks just shuttled him around and ignored him. I don't think that the CEO of Sears got called in on this one.

    --
    "It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom. Keep that in mind at all times." Bill Hicks
  65. Re:This guy is just a jerk. This isn't a story. by Syberghost · · Score: 2

    Such behavior is just a level of refinement away from the brilliant social satire done by Michael Moore [imdb.com], the genius behind "TV Nation" and "The Awful Truth".

    On the other hand, it's just a level away from the work of Tom Green, too, whom I won't dignify with a link.

    Anybody can walk around with a camera and act like an asshole. Saying "I'm doing it for artistic reasons" doesn't make it art, unless you also think Yoko Ono scrawling "fuck" on a museum ceiling is art.

    This guy has a valid point, but the only people who are going to listen long enough to hear it are those who already get it.

  66. Re:This guy is just a jerk. This isn't a story. by Erasmus+Darwin · · Score: 2
    "Yeah, but like you said, this is a level of refinement away. Comparing this guy to Micheal Moore is like comparing my golf game to Tiger Woods'."

    True enough. But I'm still trying to provide at least some validation for the technique. The post I replied to could be converted to the analogy of, "What's the point at smacking a little white ball around a big green field?" My reply, by citing someone who actually gets it right, is trying to show that sometimes that little white ball gets hit into the hole on the far side of the field. A lot more people appreciate golf (even if some people deride it as not being a sport) versus the number of people who at least appreciate what this guy's attempting to do.

    Futhermore, there's at least some hope for the guy. Just as someone can get better at golf, this guy can hopefully learn from his mistakes and refine the process a bit. While I'm not going to automatically give him a gold star for effort, he does have some theoretical potential. Maybe he'll do some direct good. Maybe not. Either way, he's at least spawned an interesting Slashdot discussion.

  67. Re:This guy is just a jerk. This isn't a story. by Silver222 · · Score: 1
    Oh, so now you think golf is a sport? You're going to turn a nice discussion into a flame war :)


    Seriously though, from what I've seen of Michael Moore's stuff, he seems to go to the top. Doing this to the executive assistant of someone important is a lot more effective. It also helps that Micheal Moore doesn't sound like he sleeps in a foil lined room at night. Most of the time. :)

    --
    "It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom. Keep that in mind at all times." Bill Hicks
  68. Re:This guy is just a jerk. This isn't a story. by Erasmus+Darwin · · Score: 2
    "On the other hand, it's just a level away from the work of Tom Green, too, whom I won't dignify with a link."

    You mean the guy responsible for an increased awareness about testicular cancer? While most of his antics are immature "look at me" stunts, he did use the attention people gave him to bring attention to a very serious problem. Admittedly, it was something that he had a personal stake in (just as Michael J. Fox has a personal stake in Parkinson's research and Christopher Reeve has one in spinal injury research), but he did do some societal good.

  69. Re:This guy is just a jerk. This isn't a story. by Syberghost · · Score: 2

    but he did do some societal good.

    I don't recall saying he did no GOOD; I said he did no ART.

    A sewer does societal good, too, but I ain't hanging what comes out the other end up on my wall.

    Hell, some guy owes him a debt of gratitude for making Drew Barrymore all weepy and vulnerable, too. :-)

  70. Natural Date by Erris · · Score: 2

    As a Christian celebrating Christmass, I had the day off and a video camera in my hand. What was I capturing? Mundane details of family life in New Orleans. I saw nothing terrible, thank goodness. No one got riled up either. It's amazing where you can go with a smile. Had I heard of something terrible at a time and place where I was, I'd take a closer look at my tape. Sure, it would not be as good as a Rodney King tape, any picture is better than none. There I was, sousvailance, without knowing it. Surely, others were doing the same thing.

    --
    DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
  71. not stillborn by Erris · · Score: 2
    The idea is that disinterested third parties will capture events. This is why witnesses have credibility. Why would they lie? Witnesses with cameras are far more credible than those without. Lies have always been part of the equation and motives have to be discerned.

    I'm not sure why there are so many negative comments here. It's like 50% of the posts say, "Slashdotters are paranoid weenies." Great, there's nothing like reading insults all day, except being so lifeless as to write them.

    --
    DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.