Handling Discrimination in the IT Workplace?

RJ asks: "I would like to get some advice from others that may be going through the same situation I am. I am currently 19 and will be turning 20 in 1 week. I have held my current job, as Systems-Network Administrator, for almost a year now in very good standing according to my direct boss, the IT Manager. I have 5 years industry experience and a few certifications, yet I am more then qualified for my current position according to previous employers (and my work history/experience). It has recently come to my attention that our IT Director is trying to either find a way to get rid of me or transfer me into a miserable job position, all because of my age. My Boss explained to me he thinks it has to do with a bit of jealousy. Everyone I work with is over the age of 30 and the IT director is in his mid 40's." Either your too old, or your too young, or it's racial issues, sexual preference, and sometimes it can even be religion. Despite the fact that it's the 21st century discrimination still exists and many of us have had to face it in our careers. For most, it basically amounts to a career roadblock, while for others, it can also turn into an extremely humiliating and terrible experience. What options exist for those who experience it in any of the many forms it can take in the workplace?

"The IT Director has never approached me about any of this and treats me fine to my face, but seems to talk bad about me around my Boss, though my boss does his best to defend me. I have had no work problems (documented or not) and have a clean HR record. It's to the point I can't trust anyone at work anymore. Everywhere I work people like me but as soon as they learn my age they automatically hate me, become jealous, or try to find ways to get rid of me. I have learned to deal with this problem as I figured it went with the territory. However, I also have a new baby daughter and a new wife to support and I can't lose my job, especially in this economy. Needless to say I am polishing up the resume and starting to look for a new job, but can anyone offer any sound advice, or legal actions which I can take if I do get fired, or even suggest employers in the industry that are friendly to my age bracket?"

Comments

More details needed.

[juuri]

You are 19 and currently have 5 years experience?

I don't buy it. Being on the net for 5 years or taking apart and playing with computers with your friends isn't real world(tm) job experience.

Please, prove me wrong.

Re:More details needed.

[wurp]

While I agree that the post to which you're replying takes a cynical view, I still agree that even if you have been programming since 16, your 'years of experience' don't start then.

When you tell someone about your professional experience, it should be just that. You should definitely also tell them about your pre-professional experience, but you're misleading them if you lump your junior high and high school programming/networking/admin days in with work you did in a professional environment.

BTW, I started programming (in Basic and 6502 assembler) when I was 12 years old. I am now 31, and I tell people I have 7 years of experience, which I do. I have never counted my experience as starting at 12!

Re:More details needed.

[OnyxRaven]

Bah, I'm a 19 year old about to turn 20 who has 5 years of experience, and the 5 year pin to prove it. I probably cant get as far as this poster though because he does have certifications and I have but one, a CNA.

I've gone through 4 IT managers, and all but the current one have treated me as a kid, not taking me seriously. This one though knows I know more about the history of the office's network than anyone else there, so my skills are valuable, and even though I dont work much during the semester, I still get called about some obscure issues predating any of the staff there. I'm still offered my position back at every break.

I have been ignored quite a few times, because I'm young, and they ask for one of my older coworkers. But there are still quite a few who value my expertice and knowledge about the systems we maintain.

I have never been offered a promotion, though I have gotten raises by threatening offers from other companies (which I have recieved). I understand why not, because I'm not a full time employee.

But if this poster is full time, has intimate knowledge of the system, and is getting 'bullied' by older staff because of his age and his possibly more current knowledge, it does sound like age discrimination, and he should seek help with it outside of the IT department (office manager, HR manager, etc).

Maybe you ARE the problem.

[Brento]

It has recently come to my attention that our IT Director is trying to either find a way to get rid of me or transfer me into a miserable job position, all because of my age. My Boss explained to me he thinks it has to do with a bit of jealousy. Everyone I work with is over the age of 30 and the IT director is in his mid 40's.

OK, you need to buckle down a little here and realize that it might be a perfectly legitimate complaint. They hired you knowing full well what your age was (unless you've got premature gray hair or you dress like Mr. Rogers), and you need to realize that they wouldn't have hired you if they didn't want you. Something has changed between the time when they hired you, and now. Odds are you've demonstrated something about your age that didn't show up in the interview. I don't know what it is in your case, but typical guesses would be that you've made some less-than-mature decisions.

I know plenty of people who have done the same thing. One example that comes to mind is a guy who started dating coworkers. A lot of them. And while it wasn't against company policy, it looked pretty immature when he was involved with a different staff member every month - and it wasn't the kind of mistake a 40-year old programmer would have made. The powers of the company didn't start disliking him because of his age: they disliked him because of the decisions he made.

Another thing you need to consider is the economy. Suddenly, employers have their pick of the best that's out there, and prices are dropping. You might have been a choice pick two or three years ago, but now there are better people out there with more experience, and the IT director might even have someone in mind.

Don't forget that personal connections mean everything. Your chief responsibility is to make sure your boss doesn't make any mistakes, and that he/she looks like a hero. As long as that's the case, your boss will always go to the mat for you, no matter how old/young you are, and nobody else in the company will be able to override them. You know what they say about trust: people who don't trust others, can't be trusted. If you come off as paranoid, nobody's going to put you in charge of stuff.

Re:Maybe you ARE the problem.

[mwdib]

Brento makes a very valuable point in his first paragraph. As a manager with 30-some years experience, I've seen many cases where employees felt they were being discriminated against (for age, sex, sexual orientation, or race) but, at the same time, there were serious performance problems or behaviors that the employee failed to correct -- often claiming the behaviors were irrelevant or didn't even exist.

Out of a dozen or so instances I can think of, there was only one (a sexual orientation case) where I agreed with the employee that the manager's case against him was bogus and rooted in personal animosity. Of course, in my state, discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is legal, so the employee lost. Nonetheless, the other 11 or so cases make me skeptical as to the claims being offered here. I could be wrong, but I'm a crusty old cynic.

And now I'm going to sound like a prejudicial old coot . . .

My experience tells me that young people (males particularly) tend to be non-reflective and have a fair amount of trouble realistically assessing their behaviors (both good and bad).

That said, I'd offer the following advice:

1. Answer the question: do I like (or need) this job enough that I'm willing to make reasonale changes to my behavior? If the answer is yes, continue:
   
2. Talk to the boss and ask what specific behaviors need changing. If the boss says "none," ask for permission to speak to the IT Director yourself. [Bear in mind that the boss may be trying to get you to change your behavior by making you think upper management is displeased -- maybe they aren't and the boss is playing some game of his own for his own reasons. The IT Director may love you and the boss may actually be the one trying to get you to leave]. If you get to talk to the IT Director, lay out the situation clearly, with more detail than you have done here. The upshot should be respectful requests to (1) understand the situation and (2) understand if the IT director has concerns about your behavior and what they are.
   
3. In any event, immediately go to your company's HR department and lay out the situation clearly and non-emotionally.
   

The essence of the advice is this: Failing to confront this, will just stress you out and get you no where. You must clarify three things: (1) where you stand on the job, (2) what the actual situation is, and (3) if you need to make changes to alter the situation.

Best of luck.

Re:Maybe you ARE the problem.

[snookerdoodle]

This is so true - I hope you read it again before disagreeing with it...

Personally, I'm 44 with an engineering degree. 5 years ago, I began to transition from purely s/w dev (started professionally in 1982) to IT management. I now do very little development - Java stuff under Domino - and am responsible for several sites.

I personally LOVE younger guys and have tried unsuccessfully to put some into network management positions. In retrospect, the lack of success really was due to lack of maturity. I know that had I been onsite personally, I could have shielded them from interpersonal dealings with Users. But I couldn't be there. Our next folks will be a little older with at least the fortitude to get a BS and/or MSCE-type certifications.

Why? Because the job is more about managing and educating users (to make them Good Users) than about setting up networks, adding accounts, installing updates, etc.

Here's what I think is my Big Quote:

Until we see that our jobs are about relationships, not machines, we will always be perceived as immature.

And rightly so.

Mark

Re:Maybe you ARE the problem.

[tshak]

OK, you need to buckle down a little here and realize that it might be a perfectly legitimate complaint. They hired you knowing full well what your age was (unless you've got premature gray hair or you dress like Mr. Rogers), and you need to realize that they wouldn't have hired you if they didn't want you. Something has changed between the time when they hired you, and now. Odds are you've demonstrated something about your age that didn't show up in the interview. I don't know what it is in your case, but typical guesses would be that you've made some less-than-mature decisions.

You make a well stated argument, but you are incredibly off base with your assumptions.

1) It sounds like his immidiate bosses have never had a problem with him - they are most likely the ones to have done the hiring.

2) There are a couple times - for ego/political reasons - that after I've been hired, a manager doesn't like me regardless of job performance. A relevant example: When I was younger (21), I critiqued a major system designed by an upper manager. Almost overnight I went from a "star" employee to a "devicive and incompetent" employee. He tried to fire me for 6 months until finally HE got fired (thanks to some seasoned consultants and other developers who reported similar findings).

There are many reasons for a few select people to not like you, least of which is incompetance. Now, if his immidiate managers and fellow employees don't like him - for whatever reason - then it's time to find a new job. With age one does gain valuable life experience, but with the current information given, I would lean more towards illogical management then the possibility of less-than-mature decision making.

Re:Maybe you ARE the problem.

[Otter]

As a manager with 30-some years experience, I've seen many cases where employees felt they were being discriminated against (for age, sex, sexual orientation, or race) but, at the same time, there were serious performance problems or behaviors that the employee failed to correct -- often claiming the behaviors were irrelevant or didn't even exist.

I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, up until:
Everywhere I work people like me but as soon as they learn my age they automatically hate me, become jealous, or try to find ways to get rid of me. I have learned to deal with this problem as I figured it went with the territory.

If this were an isolated incident, maybe. At the point where everywhere you work, people "automatically" hate you, it's time to start looking in the mirror instead of deciding that it's always got to be age discrimination.

Re:Yeah this is a big problem

[Brento]

I found that if you confront them and show them how much you know and how confident you are at your job then they will learn to respect your level of knowledge.

Wrong-o. If you confront a senior manager and start a showdown, you will win the battle and lose the war, looking like a cocky jerk. I can't believe how many times I see junior people try that stunt. If you correct your boss in front of other people, you are NOT helping your case. You will look like an overconfident know-it-all with zero political experience, and your boss will not have you around the next time he/she is in an important conversation.

That sort of trick works great when you're "fixing computers on my time off", as you said, but as soon as you get into a political office, you will be targeted for destruction. Think about how you feel when somebody corrects you, and you were wrong. Now think about how you'd react if they were much younger, and you had all the power. You might think you'd be nice to them, but in reality, you'd squash 'em like a bug and bring in somebody more polite and savvy.

Start your journey by reading The Art Of War. I can't emphasize enough how important this is in corporate culture: look weak when you're strong, and look strong when you're weak. Nothing impresses bosses more than an employee who gets the war of corporate culture, and knows how to pick battles.

Take it or leave it

[k4]

I had problems with discrimination in my first two jobs out of college - about ten years ago. I had the double whammy - young (21) and female. I was a sysadmin, programmer, jack of all trades, with three years of experience and a CS degree. But because I was female, the salesmen gave me letters to type. The owner referred to me as the "computer girl" and treated me like a secretary. I tried to tough it out for a while, but realized that there isn't much you can do about people like them. So I quit.

The next place I worked at, I was the manager of the IT department, with two employees reporting to me. I was nearly 20 years younger than them, and one of them had major problems with my age. She tried very hard to get me fired. Most of the other managers also thought I was way too young and didn't take me seriously at all. So I quit.

The next time I interviewed, I looked for companies with lots of young employees. Getting a tour of the company is a great way to scope this out. I also looked for temp-to-hire positions, so I could make sure things would be good before hiring in permanently. And I found a fantastic company, where people didn't care that I was female or young. I was much, much happier.

So if you've got the experience, knowledge, and talent, why stay in an environment where you're uncomfortable or not treated right? Life is too short...

Man, is this one obvious.

[bmetz]

First, you don't have 5 years experience. Unless you started working 9-to-5 at age 14. Part-time at 14, which I doubt you did, doesn't count. Running a few linux machines at your high school or at your house doesn't count.

Second, do you actually care whether or not this is age descrimination? I wouldn't. If someone is looking to get rid of you, the real problem is that someone is looking to get rid of you. You either resolve that or you get ready to get kicked out of the company. Get ready for the inevitable -- you are on the way out.

How about you take the obvious not-so-attractive-short-term choice: quit the company, get some student loans, and go back to college. (I'm assuming you either dropped out or never went)

Most people are reasonable

[webword]

In my opinion, there will always be discrimination. My experience in industry and academia has taught me to be very aware of discrimination. It is there, and it always will be there. Humans are human. As long as we judge each other, discrimination will occur.

With that said, I wish people would stop complaining so much. It is actually very, very rare to be discriminated against. To be more precise, it is rare to be only discriminated against. Instead, what usually happens, is that a person is lazy, annoying, or useless. Management then makes a move and the person being "attacked" cries discrimination.

I'm not trying to minimize the impact of discrimination, but come on folks, most of us know that the people being "discriminated against" are the slugs. They are the people that you actually want to eliminate from your company or organization.

Once again, just to be 100% clear, I know that discrimination happens. I hate it. You hate it. But, in my opinion and experience, it is extremely rare that it is the only factor.

Pfft

[underpaidISPtech]

Man, I've lost count of the posts on /. that go something like this:

Hi SlashDot, I'm $Xteen years old, and I'm the IT/NOC/Systems Director/Manager/Admin and I make $AVG_NORTH_AMERICAN_SALARY*2.5/year.
I never went to college, got the job right out of HS, starting as a phone jockey. I have $AGE/4 years experience. All my underlings are $AGE*4 years. Ph3@r m3.

If this is for real, then at 26 with no certs I'm washed up and ready for the old folks home.

Insensitivity: -1, Offtopic: -1, KiddyBashing: -1, Speaking your mind: Priceless

Plow on.

[twitter]

Just keep on doing your best, but start looking for another job. Places that dissmiss merit and are unable to recognize results for any reason are on the way down. Somewhere is a place that will both appreciate and reward you for what you do well. Continue to do what you can to make your performance as good as it can be. Failure looks bad.

Remember the razor, however. If you find that many people are wrong and impossible to convince, you may not be right. Good luck!

More likely experience than age

[SpinyNorman]

You may believe you are god's gift to your boss, but the people you are workign with most likely have degrees (which you obviously don't) as well as years more experience than you do. You may be doign your job OK, but I bet in ten years time you'd be the first to shout how much more useful experience you have than some 20 yr old, and how that experience helps you see things at a higher level and make better decisions.

The tech job market is competetive, and it may well be that although you're doing OK, that your performance falls short enough of what the higher ups know a more experienced person would bring to the job. I'd really adivise you to look for another job, although your other alternative would be to ask where you are coming short of expectations / requirements, and what you can do to improve yourself.

My similar story and solution

[truthsearch]

I worked for Mastercard for 5 years, starting as an intern after my sophomore year in college. I was in HR for a year, then an analytical dept for a year, then the "IT" department for 2 years. I was hired at 19, had great reviews and only compliments for my first 2 years.

After I graduated and was hired full time, I was moved under a jack-ass of a boss. He was an idiot, but lied and carried himself well, so got away with a lot of shit. Anyway, he was my 4th boss at the company and was the only one to talk about me behind my back. He gave me great reviews, but the raises sucked and he told others I was too young, even though everyone agreed I did more than my share of good work.

After one particular comment he made in front of others, I put in an official complain in human resources. They did nothing. I went to his boss, who also did nothing (he seemed to feel uncomfortable with discussing it with my boss). I felt my salary was being held back because I was being discriminated against. I had no good way to prove it, however.

I took 2 weeks vacation, found a new job, and started at double the salary I was getting at Mastercard. I'm still at this other company and I'm treated very well, even as the youngest in my group.

My experience tells me that if your IT director wants to get rid of you, you're out of luck. Granted it's a bad market, but go looking elsewhere. Remember that you won't be able to sue him (most likely) until after you're fired, which is way too late if you've got a family. So freshen up that resume and send it to everyone and their mother.

Good luck.

Old Losers Suck

[standards]

I have a similar problem. I'm only 22, but I'm as smart as a whip. Perhaps even smarter.

My boss, who is 41, isn't that smart. I mean he started in the industry doing COBOL. Come on, even I'm smarter than that.

My colleagues are all older than me. They always talk about the old days, like C++ and VMS. They just like to worry what management likes to hear. Not me, I'm a PHP god, and I'm sure we can save millions if they'd let me.

There is this one older guy that I work with who LOVES to use databases! I said "just put it all in XML"! Saves thousands of dollars just in database licensing fees! But he won, because the management likes older guys and that old database crap.

I spoke my mind, and my boss shut me down. I said to him "what happened to free speech???". Then he demoted me to the mail room.

They're all old guys down there too. They're concerned about delivering junk mail. I said "Let's just chuck it, no one reads it anyway". It could save thousnads a year, but they don't listen to younger people who are smarter then they are.

My friend Timmy is in law school - he's helping me document all this so we can sue them and then I'll own my boss!

How I handled this

[firewort]

I went and scheduled a meeting with the manager, and then the second line manager (higher-up.) As a performance review.

I said I simply wanted to get some feedback on how they thought I was doing and how I could continue to meet their expectations.

I said I felt I was doing well at meeting my goals, but I wanted to make sure that I was doing all that I could, and wanted their opinions on my performance.

The first job I ever did this at, it was wonderful. I heard better things about myself than I could have guessed. This was at a small company.

The next time I did this, it was at a large multinational corporation. The manager brought my team leader into the meeting even though I hadn't wanted it. The team leader was a micromanager who changed my priorities daily, took away whatever I was working on and finished it himself, without giving feedback about what I was or wasn't doing, even when asked. So, he lit into a speech about how I managed to contribute no value to the team. (Despite other team members sending notes praising me to the manager. I was copied on those.)

I was given a chance to respond, and I fell for it- I showed clearly how every point was an unfair assessment. I won the battle, but lost the war. I've not been fired, but I do have weekly meetings with my manager now.

He gets good feedback via notes from my new team leader, and other members of the team. I tell him how I've met my deadlines, and what I'm working on next and when the deadline is for it. He nods and smiles and comes up with something esoteric to criticise, like, did I improve customer satisfaction this past week? To which I say, yes, I met my deadline and excelled at providing the customer with a better 'X'. ...

So, be careful, learn from my experiences. However, it does look good to be proactive and seek out ways- just be careful to not get ambushed as I did, and in doing so, don't get sucked into winning the battle...

Just a note on politics.

[mindstrm]

Speaking strictly, the IT director won't tell you this to your face because it's not his job to do so. It's his job to deal with your boss (from the sounds of it). Period. And your bosses problem to deal with you.

Now, what should happen is your boss would shield you from the director. If your boss thinks his boss is out of line, it's up to your boss to do something about it.

If you were to go over your bosses head and complain somewhere over the Director's head, it may get your boss in shit.. because it's his job to sort this out.

Now.. strangely enough, I was in basically this exact same position a few years ago, if you can believe it.

The VP Tech (out of the blue) decided that I needed to be fired, and started basically blaming things on me, and to make it worse, he worked in our head office, not in the building I was in. Whenever I saw him in person, he was nice, joking, friendly. Whenever he was back in his office, he backstabbed.

Just before he moved to this new office and started trying to get rid of me, we hired an IT Director, whom I reported directly to (clarification, in my case, it's the VP who's bad and the director who's my boss) Now.. this guy barely knew me. I was young (24) compared to everyone else involved.. and he walked right into his new job to find that the VP Tech was trying to axe me. What did he do? He came to me in person, said so-and-so has it in for you, and flatly stated that he thought such behavior was unprofessional and that he had no intention of letting me go. This was after working with me for about 3 or 4 days.
Weeks later, at a meeting, with all senior management present, The VP brought up the topic of canning me again. My new boss stood up, said basically, and firmly, 'We are not letting him go, he stays. if you have a problem with what my department does, bring it up with me. It's not up to you to hire/fire my staff. That's why you hired me as the Director of IT'. This was in front of the CEO, etc. And that settled it. It never came up again.

Ask Slashdot Week

[Flavio]

It seems to me like this is the "Hi, I'm 19-24, never went to college, am a kick ass programmer with TONS of experience but am stuck professionally! HELP!!!!" week.

I don't intend to offend you, but you must know some things:

1. Face it: college is IMPORTANT. Go study now while you still can. You may argue that you're married with kids now, but you're still young -- don't wait until you're 30 to say "I should've gone to college back when I was 20 and could".

2. Programming is cool, but it's not everything that matters. Once you learn calculus, statistics and logic you'll have better ways to solve problems. You'll see that there are solutions other than brute force.

3. Programming can be extremely easy next to mathematics. It's often much simpler to devise something that "just works" rather than developing it carefully and proving why it's the best solution.

4. Cutting and pasting perl/php for 5 years doesn't count as real work. Nor does assembling computers/networks. Just installing and updating software doesn't count as professional system administration.

5. The computer stuff you did in high school doesn't count as real world experience.

6. Whether you like it or not, most companies will NEVER consider you and most professionals won't respect you if you don't have a degree. You will keep losing arguments even though you're right.

7. You'll never know how much you lack unless you go to college.

In short, you may be stuck professionally for a reason other than age discrimination. Perhaps being a kick ass programmer isn't all that matters.

Re:Ask Slashdot Week

[Flavio]

Maybe YOUR company won't consider you if you don't have a BS. There are plenty of companies who will give you a chance, however.

With lower salaries, unless you can really prove yourself. I doubt the Ask Slashdot guy will be able to do that since he's so young.

A college degree is better of course, but you're really wrong about needing one.

I wouldn't like to be out of work, 20 years old, with 5 years of questionable industry experience and WITHOUT a college degree.

You're just saying that because of the following:

As you move along in your career a degree matters less and less however. If you are 30 and have proven yourself with a bunch of good years of experience behind you, 95% of 'professionals' will actually respect you, whether or not you got that piece of paper 10 years ago.

You're correct that as you prove yourself the degree becomes less important. Until you've done that, however, you may live through some unpleasant times. If I were 20 years old and in his place, I'd try to go to school. It's much more pleasant than going against the stablished order and gives you better odds.

Part-time isn't the same thing, guys

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

As a freshman in high school (14 yrs old) my father hired me to do some network administration in the small accounting firm he owned. I learned on the job and he paid me a low hourly salary. I did that all through high school and college for him. That's 8 years of "real world(tm)" experience before getting a degree.

No, it's not. While it is certainly valuable experience -- I'm a professional software developer now, and you can bet I listed my early part-time programming work on my CV at first -- comparing that to full experience of the same length of time is misleading at best. A part-time job such as you describe does not provide the same level of immersion into the position as a full-time job would. It simply isn't as "full on".

Quite rightly, almost no-one in the industry is going to give you the same amount of credit in your position as a guy who's been running a network full-time for 8 years. Furthermore, if you go around making exaggerated claims like that, they'll mark you down for the implicit dishonesty, and possibly use it as grounds for dismissal at a later date.

Re:You may think your boss is a friend.....

[Verteiron]

As the poster of the parent note implies, once a Director has a mind to do things, like canning someone, they usually find a way to do it.

This is no joke. I worked for a large corporation (hint: they make big green tractors) as second-level tech support. Basically I oversaw the users in a zone and was responsible for ALL of that zone's IT needs. Just after I set up the systems and such for an international conference with 180 attendees (and got a commendation for it), I was fired without any reason given. They didn't even tell me right away; my security card wouldn't let me leave the building and some guy had to use his to let me out.

Upon being notified the next workday that my contract had been terminated, I called a friend working inside to see if I could find out what was going on. Apparently the inside story was that I'd been using company resources to "hack a server in north Korea" (which wasn't remotely true). But nobody had seen any logs or any other evidence. This was purely on the word of the IT director. I was 19 at the time and all the others in my position were 25+. Of course, I was a contract employee, so I had no legal recourse, but if I had ever heard anything about that story outside of that company, I'd sue. I mean, firing me for being too young is one thing, but making up some bogus bullshit story to blame it on?