RJ asks:
"I would like to get some advice from others that may be going through the same situation I am. I am currently 19 and will be turning 20 in 1 week. I have held my current job, as Systems-Network Administrator, for almost a year now in very good standing according to my direct boss, the IT Manager. I have 5 years industry experience and a few certifications, yet I am more then qualified for my current position according to previous employers (and my work history/experience). It has recently come to my attention that our IT Director is trying to either find a way to get rid of me or transfer me into a miserable job position, all because of my age. My Boss explained to me he thinks it has to do with a bit of jealousy. Everyone I work with is over the age of 30 and the IT director is in his mid 40's." Either your too old, or your too young, or it's racial issues, sexual preference, and sometimes it can even be religion. Despite the fact that it's the
21st century discrimination still exists and many of us have had to face it in our careers. For most, it basically amounts to a career roadblock, while for others, it can also turn into an extremely humiliating and terrible experience. What options exist for those who experience it in any of the many forms it can take in the workplace?
"The IT Director has never approached me about any of this and treats me fine to my face, but seems to talk bad about me around my Boss, though my boss does his best to defend me. I have had no work problems (documented or not) and have a clean HR record. It's to the point I can't trust anyone at work anymore. Everywhere I work people like me but as soon as they learn my age they automatically hate me, become jealous, or try to find ways to get rid of me. I have learned to deal with this problem as I figured it went with the territory.
However, I also have a new baby daughter and a new wife to support
and I can't lose my job, especially in this economy. Needless to say
I am polishing up the resume and starting to look for a new job, but can anyone offer any sound advice, or legal actions which I can take if I do get fired, or even suggest employers in the industry that are friendly to my age bracket?"
Slashdot Mirror
but he isn't. If he was really a friend or cared about you in that job he would stand up for you and speak to someone above the person who is "unhappy" with you.
My best friend was in the same position as you, 21 years old, a unix admin, a new boss came in and wanted him gone. 6 months later they had a short list of stupid reasons to fire him and did so, even though they are the kind of things everyone does, sucha s coming in late 5 minutes once or twice.
You are 19 and currently have 5 years experience?
I don't buy it. Being on the net for 5 years or taking apart and playing with computers with your friends isn't real world(tm) job experience.
Please, prove me wrong.
--- I do not moderate.
It has recently come to my attention that our IT Director is trying to either find a way to get rid of me or transfer me into a miserable job position, all because of my age. My Boss explained to me he thinks it has to do with a bit of jealousy. Everyone I work with is over the age of 30 and the IT director is in his mid 40's.
OK, you need to buckle down a little here and realize that it might be a perfectly legitimate complaint. They hired you knowing full well what your age was (unless you've got premature gray hair or you dress like Mr. Rogers), and you need to realize that they wouldn't have hired you if they didn't want you. Something has changed between the time when they hired you, and now. Odds are you've demonstrated something about your age that didn't show up in the interview. I don't know what it is in your case, but typical guesses would be that you've made some less-than-mature decisions.
I know plenty of people who have done the same thing. One example that comes to mind is a guy who started dating coworkers. A lot of them. And while it wasn't against company policy, it looked pretty immature when he was involved with a different staff member every month - and it wasn't the kind of mistake a 40-year old programmer would have made. The powers of the company didn't start disliking him because of his age: they disliked him because of the decisions he made.
Another thing you need to consider is the economy. Suddenly, employers have their pick of the best that's out there, and prices are dropping. You might have been a choice pick two or three years ago, but now there are better people out there with more experience, and the IT director might even have someone in mind.
Don't forget that personal connections mean everything. Your chief responsibility is to make sure your boss doesn't make any mistakes, and that he/she looks like a hero. As long as that's the case, your boss will always go to the mat for you, no matter how old/young you are, and nobody else in the company will be able to override them. You know what they say about trust: people who don't trust others, can't be trusted. If you come off as paranoid, nobody's going to put you in charge of stuff.
What's your damage, Heather?
I found that if you confront them and show them how much you know and how confident you are at your job then they will learn to respect your level of knowledge.
Wrong-o. If you confront a senior manager and start a showdown, you will win the battle and lose the war, looking like a cocky jerk. I can't believe how many times I see junior people try that stunt. If you correct your boss in front of other people, you are NOT helping your case. You will look like an overconfident know-it-all with zero political experience, and your boss will not have you around the next time he/she is in an important conversation.
That sort of trick works great when you're "fixing computers on my time off", as you said, but as soon as you get into a political office, you will be targeted for destruction. Think about how you feel when somebody corrects you, and you were wrong. Now think about how you'd react if they were much younger, and you had all the power. You might think you'd be nice to them, but in reality, you'd squash 'em like a bug and bring in somebody more polite and savvy.
Start your journey by reading The Art Of War. I can't emphasize enough how important this is in corporate culture: look weak when you're strong, and look strong when you're weak. Nothing impresses bosses more than an employee who gets the war of corporate culture, and knows how to pick battles.
What's your damage, Heather?
I had problems with discrimination in my first two jobs out of college - about ten years ago. I had the double whammy - young (21) and female. I was a sysadmin, programmer, jack of all trades, with three years of experience and a CS degree. But because I was female, the salesmen gave me letters to type. The owner referred to me as the "computer girl" and treated me like a secretary. I tried to tough it out for a while, but realized that there isn't much you can do about people like them. So I quit.
The next place I worked at, I was the manager of the IT department, with two employees reporting to me. I was nearly 20 years younger than them, and one of them had major problems with my age. She tried very hard to get me fired. Most of the other managers also thought I was way too young and didn't take me seriously at all. So I quit.
The next time I interviewed, I looked for companies with lots of young employees. Getting a tour of the company is a great way to scope this out. I also looked for temp-to-hire positions, so I could make sure things would be good before hiring in permanently. And I found a fantastic company, where people didn't care that I was female or young. I was much, much happier.
So if you've got the experience, knowledge, and talent, why stay in an environment where you're uncomfortable or not treated right? Life is too short...
When I was 19, I had five years of real world experience, too.
Now I'm 28, and I have 9 years of real world experience... All of it in the past 9 years.
-JDF
First, you don't have 5 years experience. Unless you started working 9-to-5 at age 14. Part-time at 14, which I doubt you did, doesn't count. Running a few linux machines at your high school or at your house doesn't count.
Second, do you actually care whether or not this is age descrimination? I wouldn't. If someone is looking to get rid of you, the real problem is that someone is looking to get rid of you. You either resolve that or you get ready to get kicked out of the company. Get ready for the inevitable -- you are on the way out.
How about you take the obvious not-so-attractive-short-term choice: quit the company, get some student loans, and go back to college. (I'm assuming you either dropped out or never went)
What did you eat today? http://www.atetoday.com/
In my opinion, there will always be discrimination. My experience in industry and academia has taught me to be very aware of discrimination. It is there, and it always will be there. Humans are human. As long as we judge each other, discrimination will occur.
With that said, I wish people would stop complaining so much. It is actually very, very rare to be discriminated against. To be more precise, it is rare to be only discriminated against. Instead, what usually happens, is that a person is lazy, annoying, or useless. Management then makes a move and the person being "attacked" cries discrimination.
I'm not trying to minimize the impact of discrimination, but come on folks, most of us know that the people being "discriminated against" are the slugs. They are the people that you actually want to eliminate from your company or organization.
Once again, just to be 100% clear, I know that discrimination happens. I hate it. You hate it. But, in my opinion and experience, it is extremely rare that it is the only factor.
How to Download YouTube Videos
Man, I've lost count of the posts on /. that go something like this:
Hi SlashDot, I'm $Xteen years old, and I'm the IT/NOC/Systems Director/Manager/Admin and I make $AVG_NORTH_AMERICAN_SALARY*2.5/year.
I never went to college, got the job right out of HS, starting as a phone jockey. I have $AGE/4 years experience. All my underlings are $AGE*4 years. Ph3@r m3.
If this is for real, then at 26 with no certs I'm washed up and ready for the old folks home.
Insensitivity: -1, Offtopic: -1, KiddyBashing: -1, Speaking your mind: Priceless
Remember the razor, however. If you find that many people are wrong and impossible to convince, you may not be right. Good luck!
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
You may believe you are god's gift to your boss, but the people you are workign with most likely have degrees (which you obviously don't) as well as years more experience than you do. You may be doign your job OK, but I bet in ten years time you'd be the first to shout how much more useful experience you have than some 20 yr old, and how that experience helps you see things at a higher level and make better decisions.
The tech job market is competetive, and it may well be that although you're doing OK, that your performance falls short enough of what the higher ups know a more experienced person would bring to the job. I'd really adivise you to look for another job, although your other alternative would be to ask where you are coming short of expectations / requirements, and what you can do to improve yourself.
I worked for Mastercard for 5 years, starting as an intern after my sophomore year in college. I was in HR for a year, then an analytical dept for a year, then the "IT" department for 2 years. I was hired at 19, had great reviews and only compliments for my first 2 years.
After I graduated and was hired full time, I was moved under a jack-ass of a boss. He was an idiot, but lied and carried himself well, so got away with a lot of shit. Anyway, he was my 4th boss at the company and was the only one to talk about me behind my back. He gave me great reviews, but the raises sucked and he told others I was too young, even though everyone agreed I did more than my share of good work.
After one particular comment he made in front of others, I put in an official complain in human resources. They did nothing. I went to his boss, who also did nothing (he seemed to feel uncomfortable with discussing it with my boss). I felt my salary was being held back because I was being discriminated against. I had no good way to prove it, however.
I took 2 weeks vacation, found a new job, and started at double the salary I was getting at Mastercard. I'm still at this other company and I'm treated very well, even as the youngest in my group.
My experience tells me that if your IT director wants to get rid of you, you're out of luck. Granted it's a bad market, but go looking elsewhere. Remember that you won't be able to sue him (most likely) until after you're fired, which is way too late if you've got a family. So freshen up that resume and send it to everyone and their mother.
Good luck.
Developers: We can use your help.
I have a similar problem. I'm only 22, but I'm as smart as a whip. Perhaps even smarter.
My boss, who is 41, isn't that smart. I mean he started in the industry doing COBOL. Come on, even I'm smarter than that.
My colleagues are all older than me. They always talk about the old days, like C++ and VMS. They just like to worry what management likes to hear. Not me, I'm a PHP god, and I'm sure we can save millions if they'd let me.
There is this one older guy that I work with who LOVES to use databases! I said "just put it all in XML"! Saves thousands of dollars just in database licensing fees! But he won, because the management likes older guys and that old database crap.
I spoke my mind, and my boss shut me down. I said to him "what happened to free speech???". Then he demoted me to the mail room.
They're all old guys down there too. They're concerned about delivering junk mail. I said "Let's just chuck it, no one reads it anyway". It could save thousnads a year, but they don't listen to younger people who are smarter then they are.
My friend Timmy is in law school - he's helping me document all this so we can sue them and then I'll own my boss!
I went and scheduled a meeting with the manager, and then the second line manager (higher-up.) As a performance review.
I said I simply wanted to get some feedback on how they thought I was doing and how I could continue to meet their expectations.
I said I felt I was doing well at meeting my goals, but I wanted to make sure that I was doing all that I could, and wanted their opinions on my performance.
The first job I ever did this at, it was wonderful. I heard better things about myself than I could have guessed. This was at a small company.
The next time I did this, it was at a large multinational corporation. The manager brought my team leader into the meeting even though I hadn't wanted it. The team leader was a micromanager who changed my priorities daily, took away whatever I was working on and finished it himself, without giving feedback about what I was or wasn't doing, even when asked. So, he lit into a speech about how I managed to contribute no value to the team. (Despite other team members sending notes praising me to the manager. I was copied on those.)
I was given a chance to respond, and I fell for it- I showed clearly how every point was an unfair assessment. I won the battle, but lost the war. I've not been fired, but I do have weekly meetings with my manager now.
He gets good feedback via notes from my new team leader, and other members of the team. I tell him how I've met my deadlines, and what I'm working on next and when the deadline is for it. He nods and smiles and comes up with something esoteric to criticise, like, did I improve customer satisfaction this past week? To which I say, yes, I met my deadline and excelled at providing the customer with a better 'X'.
So, be careful, learn from my experiences. However, it does look good to be proactive and seek out ways- just be careful to not get ambushed as I did, and in doing so, don't get sucked into winning the battle...
Speaking strictly, the IT director won't tell you this to your face because it's not his job to do so. It's his job to deal with your boss (from the sounds of it). Period. And your bosses problem to deal with you.
Now, what should happen is your boss would shield you from the director. If your boss thinks his boss is out of line, it's up to your boss to do something about it.
If you were to go over your bosses head and complain somewhere over the Director's head, it may get your boss in shit.. because it's his job to sort this out.
Now.. strangely enough, I was in basically this exact same position a few years ago, if you can believe it.
The VP Tech (out of the blue) decided that I needed to be fired, and started basically blaming things on me, and to make it worse, he worked in our head office, not in the building I was in. Whenever I saw him in person, he was nice, joking, friendly. Whenever he was back in his office, he backstabbed.
Just before he moved to this new office and started trying to get rid of me, we hired an IT Director, whom I reported directly to (clarification, in my case, it's the VP who's bad and the director who's my boss) Now.. this guy barely knew me. I was young (24) compared to everyone else involved.. and he walked right into his new job to find that the VP Tech was trying to axe me. What did he do? He came to me in person, said so-and-so has it in for you, and flatly stated that he thought such behavior was unprofessional and that he had no intention of letting me go. This was after working with me for about 3 or 4 days.
Weeks later, at a meeting, with all senior management present, The VP brought up the topic of canning me again. My new boss stood up, said basically, and firmly, 'We are not letting him go, he stays. if you have a problem with what my department does, bring it up with me. It's not up to you to hire/fire my staff. That's why you hired me as the Director of IT'. This was in front of the CEO, etc. And that settled it. It never came up again.
Biggest problem I can see with "youngster's" at rhe helm is one of experience.
Not technical experiencebut of human experience.
The younger techs do not seem to grasp the idea that saving a Word File (et al) is not an innate ability that all humans have. Thusly, younger techs tend to be ineffective "trainers" and short on patience.
Oddly I also find younger techs do not have the ability to "See The Screen" allowing them to talk someone through a set of commands or mouse clicks to "fix" their issue. Despite all of their excellent tech knowledge and boundless energy, young techs aren't always great people people.
In the thinning IT world being able to talk to a 60 year old VP Assistant is more important than being able to script or build a BIND server.
(I am sure the 45+ set is saying that about me and my 30ish set -- such is life)
This
If you've approached your manager with the same pile of BS that you approached Slashdot:
"I'm 19 years old with 5 years industry experience"
You shouldn't be surprised that he's trying to get rid of you. That statement alone sort of underscores your ignorance. Incase you missed it, it implies that you've been working at a 6-to-5 job that actually _matters_ since the age of 14.
Warezing != "industry experience".
Upgrading AOL on your dad's computer != "industry experience".
Having a personal webpage != "industry experience".
Its like this, spudboy.."industry experience" means sleeping on the floor of your office overnight because you need to babysit half a dozen mission-critical AIX, Solaris and IRIX boxes following a complete power-failure and network outage, because if you dont, the entire department's workload might grind to a halt, and the company will lose $30,000 per minute until its fixed. Many people here have seen and dealt with that sort of thing. No offense, but I doubt you have seen anything similar during your "5 years of industry experience".
Here's another way to look at it --- I've been coding since about the age of 4. Yes, 4. And no, i'm not kidding. (Hell, my parents still have one of my "Apple ][ Operators License" picture IDs in a photo album from when I was in 2nd grade..) Now, do you think I would put "I'm 27 years old and have 23 years industry experience" on my resume'?
Nuff said.
Bowie J. Poag
Oh, what the heck. Here goes anyhow.
./ asking for advice.) Eat some humble pie, learn how you can improve, and you may get there in another 19 years.
Five years experience and you're 19? Like several others have said, no way. Unless, of course, you dropped out of junior high and started working full time, which I doubt. Ask your boss and HR people how they count years of experience, and restate yours to match their standards.
Sue them? Well, count on paying a lawyer a few hundred bucks to ask him a few questions. You could save it to pay for your baby, but you're pissed, right? Then drop it. You're unlikely to make out like a bandit, and you're very likely to taint yourself (for suing your employer) so badly nobody will ever hire you except as a temp or consultant again.
Confront the bastard. Well, you can. Most 19-year-olds don't have the maturity and self-control to pull this one off, but you may be the exception. If you do, figure out what your goal is and how you're going to get there ahead of time. Two more hints: First, you won't win if you threaten him, and probably won't if you try to convert the IT guy on the spot by jawing at him.
Second, if you want to win a confrontation, you should ask him (and your immediate boss, too) how you can improve your performance. Tell him you have a kid on the way, and you're serious about trying to be the best employee he has, and has him how to do that. Ask him why he wants to get rid of you, and what you can do to improve so that he wants to keep you. If you don't get any response there, try the IT director's boss, one level up, with the same approach. Then listen, write down what he says, and get to work on those suggestions.
You may want to become a "Master of the Universe," but you obviously are not in a position to get there by acting like one. (For one thing, masters of the universe don't bring their problems to
Are your grammar and dress in line with the rest of your company? The dot.bust has come, and you may be trying to get away with last year's mannerisms. Don't push it too hard. Khakis and no ties you can justify if you routinely crawl around behind machines or lug monitors around. Torn t-shirts and holes in your jeans may chafe a raw spot somewhere up the hierarchy. Keep that up only if you want to remind them you're a special case. The special case they may want to get rid of.
Or quit. Just make sure you have another job lined up before you go. Be sure that if you take this route, you are going to leave. You can look for other work, and test the waters, on your lunch hour or before/after work. But you're not trying to get a raise, you want a job. If you get an offer, you're out of there.
You say your boss likes you, but your boss also tells you that the IT director wants to get rid of you? That's weird -- the IT director is going to get rid of a valuable employee over his immediate boss's objections? What could be causing that? Maybe your boss is not being completely honest with you (could it be that he wants to get rid of you and shift the blame to someone else so he can save himself some guilt when it comes time to fire you?). I'm not saying that's the case, since I don't know the circumstances, but I think you need to consider what may really be happening vs. what people are telling you.
You also say "everywhere I work...as soon as they learn my age they automatically hate me." That's really odd. I can understand some level of jealousy, and even one or two companies that are full of bozos who dislike young whippersnappers like you, but if you are finding this in a variety of different work environments then there may be something else going on. If you are really performing and able to work with people, most companies wouldn't care about your age. Since you are basically saying that your age is ALWAYS a problem, I think you have to ask whether your age -- or more precisely your attitude, level of maturity, or other things that come with your age -- REALLY IS a problem. (I don't say this to be cruel; I was also a precocious kid, was managing six people by age 23, etc; this is my perspective as a now-30-something who knows he made plenty of stupid mistakes in his youth.)
Two suggestions. First, start by making a really candid assessment of the situation, starting with your own behavior. What could you have been doing that would lose you points with your boss, your boss's boss, your coworkers, or other people in the company instead of winning points? Could it be that you make them feel dumb? (There's sometimes a fine line between helping people out and being an obnoxious know-it-all.) Could it be that you don't behave in a "professional" manner? Could you be really full of yourself? (There's a big difference between telling people your age and flaunting it.) Could it be that you actually made decisions, or advocate positions, that are bad for the company? (In my experience, this is a common one among young people who are very smart but lack business wisdom -- they may get all up in arms because they're convinced they have the Right Answer about some technical issue, but they fail to consider the larger business concerns.)
Second, take pre-emptive action. If you think you might get fired, you need to be ready with an alternative. Polish up your resume, get in touch with old contacts who might know where you could find a new position (referrals are always much better than answering random want ads or Monster postings), etc. But be careful not to neglect your responsibilities in the meantime -- you want to be a model employee. And DO NOT talk about this with anyone other than your immediate boss! Being a chatterbox will only reinforce any image of you as immature.
Personally I wouldn't suggest legal recourse, because I doubt you'll really get anywhere with it. There's not a whole lot of precedent I'm aware of (IANAL, of course) for "reverse" age discrimination, and furthermore, actually proving that's what led to your firing (should it come to that) might be really difficult. It certainly won't exactly be something you'll want to brag about to your next employer.
Good luck.
"Biped! Good cranial development. Evidently considerable human ancestry."
It seems to me like this is the "Hi, I'm 19-24, never went to college, am a kick ass programmer with TONS of experience but am stuck professionally! HELP!!!!" week.
I don't intend to offend you, but you must know some things:
1. Face it: college is IMPORTANT. Go study now while you still can. You may argue that you're married with kids now, but you're still young -- don't wait until you're 30 to say "I should've gone to college back when I was 20 and could".
2. Programming is cool, but it's not everything that matters. Once you learn calculus, statistics and logic you'll have better ways to solve problems. You'll see that there are solutions other than brute force.
3. Programming can be extremely easy next to mathematics. It's often much simpler to devise something that "just works" rather than developing it carefully and proving why it's the best solution.
4. Cutting and pasting perl/php for 5 years doesn't count as real work. Nor does assembling computers/networks. Just installing and updating software doesn't count as professional system administration.
5. The computer stuff you did in high school doesn't count as real world experience.
6. Whether you like it or not, most companies will NEVER consider you and most professionals won't respect you if you don't have a degree. You will keep losing arguments even though you're right.
7. You'll never know how much you lack unless you go to college.
In short, you may be stuck professionally for a reason other than age discrimination. Perhaps being a kick ass programmer isn't all that matters.
I wonder if "intimidatingly smart" is doublespeak for something else. I meet really really smart people a lot, and don't feel intimidated (I'm not so smart, so maybe I'm just oblivious ;-)
OTOH, I've met a fare share of moderately intelligent assholes who have a chip on their shoulder about how smart they are.
0.02
Tales from behind the Lagom Curtain
Start your own consulting business by yourself.... The only problem for me, is when my boss sexualy herasses me whenever I'm alone with a fast internet conection....
Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.
First off I apologize for my grammer. Secondly I have 5 years real world experince and I am not talking about running some pethetic highschool network.
.5 years and have worked at my currecnt job for 1 year. That is 5 years of real world experience.
I was home schooled and graduated at 15. I got my first real full time Job at Best Buy Inc as A PC Tech, I worked there for 2 years. Then I worked at a Game Development company for 1.5 years. I then worked at another Software Developemnt company for
Third, I have my 6 month review that says other wise. I got almost all good remarks, true I got the usuall, late a few times, everyone gets that, but there is always room to improve IMHO, and I am not claiming to be anything I am not.
I dont have a college degree but have started back to school to pursue my CS degree. I do have my MCSE, RHCE and am currently pursing some Cisco certification, but like others have said nothing is as good as a college degree except a college degree and I 100% agree with that.
Lastly and I stress this fact would all the trolls and flamers that have no sound advice, just not say anything at all ? That would be nice.
Oh, and one last thing, I am not one to sue for millions of dollars I am simply talking if they fire me because of my age I would simply want enough severance to take care of my family.
Anyway thanks to everyone for some good advice.
No, it's not. While it is certainly valuable experience -- I'm a professional software developer now, and you can bet I listed my early part-time programming work on my CV at first -- comparing that to full experience of the same length of time is misleading at best. A part-time job such as you describe does not provide the same level of immersion into the position as a full-time job would. It simply isn't as "full on".
Quite rightly, almost no-one in the industry is going to give you the same amount of credit in your position as a guy who's been running a network full-time for 8 years. Furthermore, if you go around making exaggerated claims like that, they'll mark you down for the implicit dishonesty, and possibly use it as grounds for dismissal at a later date.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
with any superiors because even if you are right you will lose. Getting into a fight with your boss is like showing up with a knife at a gun fight (that's a quote from some famous movie, I don't remember which, flame me). They can always fire on the spot with out cause. Most states are "Employment at will" which means the don't have to give you a reason, and you can bet that if they did it wouldn't be an illegal one. Also in this economy if you piss off the director bad enough you manager will save his own ass and congradulate him on his descision. My advice, work your frickin butt off if you aren't already. Be the goto guy for ass much stuff as you reasonably can be. Talk to the director and ask him what you need to do to make him happy and if he dislikes you, what you did to deserve it. Make ammends as best you can even if director seems completely wrong. Unfortunatley your daughter may be depending on your ass kissing abilities. And with five years experience, you should know that ass kissing is a part of every profession (yes even the CEO has to kiss the stock-holders collective ass).