RJ asks:
"I would like to get some advice from others that may be going through the same situation I am. I am currently 19 and will be turning 20 in 1 week. I have held my current job, as Systems-Network Administrator, for almost a year now in very good standing according to my direct boss, the IT Manager. I have 5 years industry experience and a few certifications, yet I am more then qualified for my current position according to previous employers (and my work history/experience). It has recently come to my attention that our IT Director is trying to either find a way to get rid of me or transfer me into a miserable job position, all because of my age. My Boss explained to me he thinks it has to do with a bit of jealousy. Everyone I work with is over the age of 30 and the IT director is in his mid 40's." Either your too old, or your too young, or it's racial issues, sexual preference, and sometimes it can even be religion. Despite the fact that it's the
21st century discrimination still exists and many of us have had to face it in our careers. For most, it basically amounts to a career roadblock, while for others, it can also turn into an extremely humiliating and terrible experience. What options exist for those who experience it in any of the many forms it can take in the workplace?
"The IT Director has never approached me about any of this and treats me fine to my face, but seems to talk bad about me around my Boss, though my boss does his best to defend me. I have had no work problems (documented or not) and have a clean HR record. It's to the point I can't trust anyone at work anymore. Everywhere I work people like me but as soon as they learn my age they automatically hate me, become jealous, or try to find ways to get rid of me. I have learned to deal with this problem as I figured it went with the territory.
However, I also have a new baby daughter and a new wife to support
and I can't lose my job, especially in this economy. Needless to say
I am polishing up the resume and starting to look for a new job, but can anyone offer any sound advice, or legal actions which I can take if I do get fired, or even suggest employers in the industry that are friendly to my age bracket?"
Slashdot Mirror
but he isn't. If he was really a friend or cared about you in that job he would stand up for you and speak to someone above the person who is "unhappy" with you.
My best friend was in the same position as you, 21 years old, a unix admin, a new boss came in and wanted him gone. 6 months later they had a short list of stupid reasons to fire him and did so, even though they are the kind of things everyone does, sucha s coming in late 5 minutes once or twice.
#1: Document everything, whether rumors, tidbits you overhear, whatever. Keep a record of everything you hear, who said it, when, where, etc.
#2: If they set out to try to get rid of you, they can use anything, so stay on the ball.
The net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it. -- John Gilmore
You are 19 and currently have 5 years experience?
I don't buy it. Being on the net for 5 years or taking apart and playing with computers with your friends isn't real world(tm) job experience.
Please, prove me wrong.
--- I do not moderate.
Finding a job is easy. Finding a place to work where you really fit in is the hard part. If you don't like the people you work with, or they don't like you, it's just a matter of time until your gone (unless you are the boss :)
IF you keep worrying, you will age much faster and people will not get you for age discrimination. But Age discrimination happens the other direction as well -- if you're in IT, not management and over 35... watch out! You're being watched closely for signs of obsolescence. Many have associated that problem in conjunction with H1-B abuse... hrm... anyway...
Keep worrying! You'll lose your hair, get a wrinkly forehead and you'll fit right in. In the mean time, there's always surgery.
I always have this and I am the same age as you, Well I turn 20 mid December next year but anyway... I found that if you confront them and show them how much you know and how confident you are at your job then they will learn to respect your level of knowledge. Remember in the business world it all comes down to trying to run a succesful company and if they feel that your age will interupt this trend then that's why they might get offended.
I don't see a problem if you are doing your job and as you said your direct boss doesn't have a problem with you.
I am currently still studying at college but I always do jobs fixing computers on my time off and when the people see me (I look young) they get offended a bit until I show them how confident I am with what I do and then they change there mind.
The Older generation feel that they are more advanced with computers and forget to realise that alot of kids are growing up with computers too.
It has recently come to my attention that our IT Director is trying to either find a way to get rid of me or transfer me into a miserable job position, all because of my age. My Boss explained to me he thinks it has to do with a bit of jealousy. Everyone I work with is over the age of 30 and the IT director is in his mid 40's.
OK, you need to buckle down a little here and realize that it might be a perfectly legitimate complaint. They hired you knowing full well what your age was (unless you've got premature gray hair or you dress like Mr. Rogers), and you need to realize that they wouldn't have hired you if they didn't want you. Something has changed between the time when they hired you, and now. Odds are you've demonstrated something about your age that didn't show up in the interview. I don't know what it is in your case, but typical guesses would be that you've made some less-than-mature decisions.
I know plenty of people who have done the same thing. One example that comes to mind is a guy who started dating coworkers. A lot of them. And while it wasn't against company policy, it looked pretty immature when he was involved with a different staff member every month - and it wasn't the kind of mistake a 40-year old programmer would have made. The powers of the company didn't start disliking him because of his age: they disliked him because of the decisions he made.
Another thing you need to consider is the economy. Suddenly, employers have their pick of the best that's out there, and prices are dropping. You might have been a choice pick two or three years ago, but now there are better people out there with more experience, and the IT director might even have someone in mind.
Don't forget that personal connections mean everything. Your chief responsibility is to make sure your boss doesn't make any mistakes, and that he/she looks like a hero. As long as that's the case, your boss will always go to the mat for you, no matter how old/young you are, and nobody else in the company will be able to override them. You know what they say about trust: people who don't trust others, can't be trusted. If you come off as paranoid, nobody's going to put you in charge of stuff.
What's your damage, Heather?
That isn't a great question to ask the /. community. You are going to get a million IANAL but here is three large - run on forever and ever quite descriptive version on my opinion.
If you think you have a case see a lawyer. Besides that there is nothing you can do except... nothing. You can't be mean to him, as this will give him a legitamate reason to fire or demote you. You shouldn't ignore him because that isn't good for anyone in the workplace. But, most importantly don't take his shit.
But if you are serious about doing SOMETHING, do it legally and through the proper channels. I could have been one of the few woman-on-man sexual harassment 'victims' [read:Millionaire] if I would have sought real legal advice early.
Besides that, if you don't even know for sure what he thinks and he hasn't actually affected your job or overall life, there isn't much you can do.
I'm 21 and I learned this lesson fast. If you don't like the people you work with [or they don't like you] there isn't anything you can do; and if you quit or do something to get fired you may find it hard to get work afterwards.
Get your Unix fortune now!
It's always easier to get a higher starting salary than a raise. If you don't like where you are, and your skills are as you describe, then get your resume out there, and take a better job.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I had problems with discrimination in my first two jobs out of college - about ten years ago. I had the double whammy - young (21) and female. I was a sysadmin, programmer, jack of all trades, with three years of experience and a CS degree. But because I was female, the salesmen gave me letters to type. The owner referred to me as the "computer girl" and treated me like a secretary. I tried to tough it out for a while, but realized that there isn't much you can do about people like them. So I quit.
The next place I worked at, I was the manager of the IT department, with two employees reporting to me. I was nearly 20 years younger than them, and one of them had major problems with my age. She tried very hard to get me fired. Most of the other managers also thought I was way too young and didn't take me seriously at all. So I quit.
The next time I interviewed, I looked for companies with lots of young employees. Getting a tour of the company is a great way to scope this out. I also looked for temp-to-hire positions, so I could make sure things would be good before hiring in permanently. And I found a fantastic company, where people didn't care that I was female or young. I was much, much happier.
So if you've got the experience, knowledge, and talent, why stay in an environment where you're uncomfortable or not treated right? Life is too short...
I had the same problems starting out as an 18-year-old in IT. Luckily for me I look a little older than my age, so I had some time to spare before anyone caught on.
One particularly nasty moment I had was when I went in for a job interview, then a second, then a third at this company, and at the end of the third they brought me around to meet the people I was going to be working with, get to know people, see my desk etc. And one of the people I met said, "Hey, didn't you go to high school with my brother?"
...
Sure enough, I got the call the next day that they'd given the job to someone else (who they'd already told me wasn't qualified).
But it's how it goes. You get pressured out of jobs because of your age, or get quietly underpaid for the same work, or have managers explain to you "in the workplace, we do not always get full lunch hours like in school".
The thing to look for could be companies that were started by younger people (harder to find these days, admittedly), because they tended to do their thing as a result of being underappreciated at their old jobs.
I myself went into freelance and contract work, because you are sold on your reputation before they meet you. I also find that starting your own company (get lots of credit cards and disconnect your fear mechanism) is a good thing to do, ESPECIALLY when you have a wife and daughter (my situation exactly... it makes you work harder).
A few years from now you'll look back at this time, a second kid on the way, and think "wow, I can't believe almost every one of the companies I worked for that treated me like crap have gone out of business!", and it will all be okay.
The world's only surviving livewriter.
Unfortuantely for you, there are few laws regarding age discrimination for people under 40. In other words, it's probably not easy to win such a "reverse discrimination" suit. However, there are some cases in some states where reverse age discrimination law suits have been permitted. New Jersey is one - the Bergen Commercial Bank suit. Look it up.
But in any case, you don't want to get involved in any lawsuits with your employer. It's not good for you in your current position, and it certainly isn't good if you're looking for a new job ("Why did I leave? I decided that I couldn't work there after I sued them. So how are your benefits?").
Your best bet is to get your resume together and get out.
I'm sorry to say it, maybe I'm a pessimist, but when things have come this far that you hear that people are trying to move you out, it's time to move on.
You can try to talk to the HR Manager, if you feel that you can trust h(im|er) I'd do that. HR Managers that are worth their salt aren't just hire, fire, and benefits people. I've personally always had very good relations with HR Managers. The best ones are honest upstanding people that will tell you that 'yes get out of here on the first boat sailing.'
I know it's tough looking around in this economic climet, believe me I know it's like the party's over and we're left paying the check. If you're as good as you say you are though it shouldn't be too bad, just expect some tough times while you transition and don't expect to find anything local.
Don't expect to find another job that is equal to what you have though. You're spot on that there's descrimination against young people of your age. I can't believe that you've got a 4 year degree at your age, or even a 2 year degree. See the recent discussion about quick college degree's here.
No one is going to believe that you're a SysAdmin god at 20 with no college and no tech school and only a year of experience. Unless maybe you're Evi Nemeth's grandson.
My personal suggestion would be to find a company that needs a Jr. SysAdmin, and find a mentor. No one wants to one-man-band things, and wether you think so or not a mentor is always a good thing. If you're as good as you say you are you'll learn new and interesting things faster than you can imagine, which will prepare you for your next job as a SA, believe me there will be more.
What if it is just turtles all the way down?
"...can anyone...suggest employers in the industry that are friendly to my age bracket?"
Try La Petite.
:)
Knunov
Why do users with IDs under 100,000 or over 700,000 usually have the most worthwhile comments?
When I was 19, I had five years of real world experience, too.
Now I'm 28, and I have 9 years of real world experience... All of it in the past 9 years.
-JDF
First, you don't have 5 years experience. Unless you started working 9-to-5 at age 14. Part-time at 14, which I doubt you did, doesn't count. Running a few linux machines at your high school or at your house doesn't count.
Second, do you actually care whether or not this is age descrimination? I wouldn't. If someone is looking to get rid of you, the real problem is that someone is looking to get rid of you. You either resolve that or you get ready to get kicked out of the company. Get ready for the inevitable -- you are on the way out.
How about you take the obvious not-so-attractive-short-term choice: quit the company, get some student loans, and go back to college. (I'm assuming you either dropped out or never went)
What did you eat today? http://www.atetoday.com/
In my opinion, there will always be discrimination. My experience in industry and academia has taught me to be very aware of discrimination. It is there, and it always will be there. Humans are human. As long as we judge each other, discrimination will occur.
With that said, I wish people would stop complaining so much. It is actually very, very rare to be discriminated against. To be more precise, it is rare to be only discriminated against. Instead, what usually happens, is that a person is lazy, annoying, or useless. Management then makes a move and the person being "attacked" cries discrimination.
I'm not trying to minimize the impact of discrimination, but come on folks, most of us know that the people being "discriminated against" are the slugs. They are the people that you actually want to eliminate from your company or organization.
Once again, just to be 100% clear, I know that discrimination happens. I hate it. You hate it. But, in my opinion and experience, it is extremely rare that it is the only factor.
How to Download YouTube Videos
Just because you didn't work while you were in high school doesn't mean no one else did. As a freshman in high school (14 yrs old) my father hired me to do some network administration in the small accounting firm he owned. I learned on the job and he paid me a low hourly salary. I did that all through high school and college for him. That's 8 years of "real world(tm)" experience before getting a degree.
;-)
No one is going to say their 19 with 5 yrs experience and not mean it. You can be sure he's used to the questions, and knows better than to state something like that on Slashdot without a valid story behind it
Developers: We can use your help.
Man, I've lost count of the posts on /. that go something like this:
Hi SlashDot, I'm $Xteen years old, and I'm the IT/NOC/Systems Director/Manager/Admin and I make $AVG_NORTH_AMERICAN_SALARY*2.5/year.
I never went to college, got the job right out of HS, starting as a phone jockey. I have $AGE/4 years experience. All my underlings are $AGE*4 years. Ph3@r m3.
If this is for real, then at 26 with no certs I'm washed up and ready for the old folks home.
Insensitivity: -1, Offtopic: -1, KiddyBashing: -1, Speaking your mind: Priceless
Remember the razor, however. If you find that many people are wrong and impossible to convince, you may not be right. Good luck!
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
You may believe you are god's gift to your boss, but the people you are workign with most likely have degrees (which you obviously don't) as well as years more experience than you do. You may be doign your job OK, but I bet in ten years time you'd be the first to shout how much more useful experience you have than some 20 yr old, and how that experience helps you see things at a higher level and make better decisions.
The tech job market is competetive, and it may well be that although you're doing OK, that your performance falls short enough of what the higher ups know a more experienced person would bring to the job. I'd really adivise you to look for another job, although your other alternative would be to ask where you are coming short of expectations / requirements, and what you can do to improve yourself.
I worked for Mastercard for 5 years, starting as an intern after my sophomore year in college. I was in HR for a year, then an analytical dept for a year, then the "IT" department for 2 years. I was hired at 19, had great reviews and only compliments for my first 2 years.
After I graduated and was hired full time, I was moved under a jack-ass of a boss. He was an idiot, but lied and carried himself well, so got away with a lot of shit. Anyway, he was my 4th boss at the company and was the only one to talk about me behind my back. He gave me great reviews, but the raises sucked and he told others I was too young, even though everyone agreed I did more than my share of good work.
After one particular comment he made in front of others, I put in an official complain in human resources. They did nothing. I went to his boss, who also did nothing (he seemed to feel uncomfortable with discussing it with my boss). I felt my salary was being held back because I was being discriminated against. I had no good way to prove it, however.
I took 2 weeks vacation, found a new job, and started at double the salary I was getting at Mastercard. I'm still at this other company and I'm treated very well, even as the youngest in my group.
My experience tells me that if your IT director wants to get rid of you, you're out of luck. Granted it's a bad market, but go looking elsewhere. Remember that you won't be able to sue him (most likely) until after you're fired, which is way too late if you've got a family. So freshen up that resume and send it to everyone and their mother.
Good luck.
Developers: We can use your help.
I have a similar problem. I'm only 22, but I'm as smart as a whip. Perhaps even smarter.
My boss, who is 41, isn't that smart. I mean he started in the industry doing COBOL. Come on, even I'm smarter than that.
My colleagues are all older than me. They always talk about the old days, like C++ and VMS. They just like to worry what management likes to hear. Not me, I'm a PHP god, and I'm sure we can save millions if they'd let me.
There is this one older guy that I work with who LOVES to use databases! I said "just put it all in XML"! Saves thousands of dollars just in database licensing fees! But he won, because the management likes older guys and that old database crap.
I spoke my mind, and my boss shut me down. I said to him "what happened to free speech???". Then he demoted me to the mail room.
They're all old guys down there too. They're concerned about delivering junk mail. I said "Let's just chuck it, no one reads it anyway". It could save thousnads a year, but they don't listen to younger people who are smarter then they are.
My friend Timmy is in law school - he's helping me document all this so we can sue them and then I'll own my boss!
Oh, yeah. Starting your own business in this market is a brilliant idea. He'd have better luck responding to one of those make-$10000-a-week-with-real-estate spams.
"That's Tron. He fights for the Users."
If this is really discrimination, why are you asking Slashdot about it rather than your state's Department of Labor? New York State has a Department of Human Rights to deal specifically with discrimination.
rooooar
I can personally attest to this with two examples.
Example the first: I worked for a woman with about a decade of managing tech support experience. If we had a conflict with a customer, she was available and knew how to handle it without compromising the support team. We worked well together and when it was review time she showed lots of appreciation.
Example the second: Same company, different boss, similar job. Worked for a dude with about 3 years experience as a manager. He was unavailable most of the time and when you had a conflict with a customer, automatically sided with the customer even if they were wrong. (This often meant hours sometimes days of extra work cleaning up messes that weren't ours to begin with.) As a result the technical folks all knew him to be an idiot.
(Note to non-tech support people: Conflicts are 99% of the time revolving around "we want you to do something" that the customer isn't paying for or that we don't know how to do because we don't sell/service that product.)
But HR still backed him when he decided to fire me over a short list of said conflicts.
Moral of the story: If your boss that you directly report to is an idiot, QUIT! Don't even bother trying to document anything and try to "take action with HR" becauses in this economy a bad boss will trump up a "performance-issue" and replace you like that. Better to find another position (even within the company) before you even consider blowing the whistle. Until the economy is chugging again, don't even think about it.
It's a lesson I learned by getting fired a week before Christmas.
Who did what now?
The profession you are in is one which does not have rock solid job-security. They removed the cheif network architect at my work with no advance notice to him or anyone else. (He must have angered some higher-up person)
But the network survived with only the remaining staff. You can bring in new admins, tell them your local topology, and have them be productive on the first day.
If you want more job security, you have to get into a position where the company needs you as much as or more than you need them. A good programmer will find himself in this position easily.(no matter how well he documents his code- programmers will never be interchangeable)
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I went and scheduled a meeting with the manager, and then the second line manager (higher-up.) As a performance review.
I said I simply wanted to get some feedback on how they thought I was doing and how I could continue to meet their expectations.
I said I felt I was doing well at meeting my goals, but I wanted to make sure that I was doing all that I could, and wanted their opinions on my performance.
The first job I ever did this at, it was wonderful. I heard better things about myself than I could have guessed. This was at a small company.
The next time I did this, it was at a large multinational corporation. The manager brought my team leader into the meeting even though I hadn't wanted it. The team leader was a micromanager who changed my priorities daily, took away whatever I was working on and finished it himself, without giving feedback about what I was or wasn't doing, even when asked. So, he lit into a speech about how I managed to contribute no value to the team. (Despite other team members sending notes praising me to the manager. I was copied on those.)
I was given a chance to respond, and I fell for it- I showed clearly how every point was an unfair assessment. I won the battle, but lost the war. I've not been fired, but I do have weekly meetings with my manager now.
He gets good feedback via notes from my new team leader, and other members of the team. I tell him how I've met my deadlines, and what I'm working on next and when the deadline is for it. He nods and smiles and comes up with something esoteric to criticise, like, did I improve customer satisfaction this past week? To which I say, yes, I met my deadline and excelled at providing the customer with a better 'X'.
So, be careful, learn from my experiences. However, it does look good to be proactive and seek out ways- just be careful to not get ambushed as I did, and in doing so, don't get sucked into winning the battle...
But when law makes it unfair, as in the case of the "age discrimination is only over 40" that's wrong. Slapping a number on age discrimination is age discrmination in and of itself!
Speaking strictly, the IT director won't tell you this to your face because it's not his job to do so. It's his job to deal with your boss (from the sounds of it). Period. And your bosses problem to deal with you.
Now, what should happen is your boss would shield you from the director. If your boss thinks his boss is out of line, it's up to your boss to do something about it.
If you were to go over your bosses head and complain somewhere over the Director's head, it may get your boss in shit.. because it's his job to sort this out.
Now.. strangely enough, I was in basically this exact same position a few years ago, if you can believe it.
The VP Tech (out of the blue) decided that I needed to be fired, and started basically blaming things on me, and to make it worse, he worked in our head office, not in the building I was in. Whenever I saw him in person, he was nice, joking, friendly. Whenever he was back in his office, he backstabbed.
Just before he moved to this new office and started trying to get rid of me, we hired an IT Director, whom I reported directly to (clarification, in my case, it's the VP who's bad and the director who's my boss) Now.. this guy barely knew me. I was young (24) compared to everyone else involved.. and he walked right into his new job to find that the VP Tech was trying to axe me. What did he do? He came to me in person, said so-and-so has it in for you, and flatly stated that he thought such behavior was unprofessional and that he had no intention of letting me go. This was after working with me for about 3 or 4 days.
Weeks later, at a meeting, with all senior management present, The VP brought up the topic of canning me again. My new boss stood up, said basically, and firmly, 'We are not letting him go, he stays. if you have a problem with what my department does, bring it up with me. It's not up to you to hire/fire my staff. That's why you hired me as the Director of IT'. This was in front of the CEO, etc. And that settled it. It never came up again.
Biggest problem I can see with "youngster's" at rhe helm is one of experience.
Not technical experiencebut of human experience.
The younger techs do not seem to grasp the idea that saving a Word File (et al) is not an innate ability that all humans have. Thusly, younger techs tend to be ineffective "trainers" and short on patience.
Oddly I also find younger techs do not have the ability to "See The Screen" allowing them to talk someone through a set of commands or mouse clicks to "fix" their issue. Despite all of their excellent tech knowledge and boundless energy, young techs aren't always great people people.
In the thinning IT world being able to talk to a 60 year old VP Assistant is more important than being able to script or build a BIND server.
(I am sure the 45+ set is saying that about me and my 30ish set -- such is life)
This
Lie about your age.
NEVER EVER provide information that is documented false. Especially on resumes and applications. Most employers can terminate you immediately for cause for any false or misleading information you submit. Even something as simple as a birthdate.
HR will know, anyway. In the US at least, you have to show proof of citizenship and if you use a birth certificate, they know your age. And you have to supply a birthdate for insurance, 401k enrollment, lots of things.
But you can be vauge (on a resume, leave dates off key events, like college graduation). Appear and act "older" than you are and most people will assume you are as you appear and act. When the "truth" does come out, you will already have established a positive reputation for your maturity.
Reading this post makes me so very happy that I work at a small startup that has NO politics like this. Sheesh!
"And like that
If you've approached your manager with the same pile of BS that you approached Slashdot:
"I'm 19 years old with 5 years industry experience"
You shouldn't be surprised that he's trying to get rid of you. That statement alone sort of underscores your ignorance. Incase you missed it, it implies that you've been working at a 6-to-5 job that actually _matters_ since the age of 14.
Warezing != "industry experience".
Upgrading AOL on your dad's computer != "industry experience".
Having a personal webpage != "industry experience".
Its like this, spudboy.."industry experience" means sleeping on the floor of your office overnight because you need to babysit half a dozen mission-critical AIX, Solaris and IRIX boxes following a complete power-failure and network outage, because if you dont, the entire department's workload might grind to a halt, and the company will lose $30,000 per minute until its fixed. Many people here have seen and dealt with that sort of thing. No offense, but I doubt you have seen anything similar during your "5 years of industry experience".
Here's another way to look at it --- I've been coding since about the age of 4. Yes, 4. And no, i'm not kidding. (Hell, my parents still have one of my "Apple ][ Operators License" picture IDs in a photo album from when I was in 2nd grade..) Now, do you think I would put "I'm 27 years old and have 23 years industry experience" on my resume'?
Nuff said.
Bowie J. Poag
I just wanted to emphasize what I've seen before ... people (both young and old) who are intellegent, but who don't quite understand the workplace.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Another thing to keep in mind is that I used to think *exactly* the same thing as you do. I'm young, they're old, they're jealous and thats why they don't like me. I was wrong!
The problem was my bad attitude. I had a rotton attitude that stemmed from a feeling that I though I was younger and smarter and better than everyone else. It sounds like you have the same attitude. It could be the real problem.
Don't get me wrong, you can run into people who are legitamitely jealous of your skills, I'm pretty sure I have. Most people won't be though. I've found that the most important thing for you to do is work hard, be helpful to your co-workers and get you assigned taks done. A good employee brings up the performance of everyone around them. An arogant employee can bring down the performance of everyone around them. Being dependible is also *HUGE*. A prima donna sysadmin that only does what they like, not what they are assigned isn't good for any company, especially a big one. Most people don't really care about your age but a superior attiude can piss off an entire devision of people. No single employee is worth ruining the morale of an entire group of people.
Just work hard and be nice to everyone. Remember when you get pissed off that you are all on the same team and you are all going in the same direction. If you truely have the skill then you probably see horrible things about to happen and get emotional about them. Don't! It's business, it's not personal. You are all on the same team. You are all going in the same direction. Calmly explain your fears and then sit back and let the horrible thing happen. Then say I told you so. It sounds childish but unless you are the boss that's the way you have to do it. After a couple of those people won't think of you as a hot headed kid. They will fear your disapproval because it means the project is likely to fail. You can't get that from superior skills alone. Only time can build a reputation like that among your pears.
Another thing to keep in mind is that in this job market it seems to me that you always get rewarded for your hard work but not unitl you switch jobs. There is a kind of *next job karma* in the world where whatever busting your ass you do in this job will be compensated in your next one. Remember to note your particularly impressive accomplishments in your resume. That's how the karma usually get's passed on.
set softtabstop=4 shiftwidth=4 expandtab nocp worlddomination
Oh, what the heck. Here goes anyhow.
./ asking for advice.) Eat some humble pie, learn how you can improve, and you may get there in another 19 years.
Five years experience and you're 19? Like several others have said, no way. Unless, of course, you dropped out of junior high and started working full time, which I doubt. Ask your boss and HR people how they count years of experience, and restate yours to match their standards.
Sue them? Well, count on paying a lawyer a few hundred bucks to ask him a few questions. You could save it to pay for your baby, but you're pissed, right? Then drop it. You're unlikely to make out like a bandit, and you're very likely to taint yourself (for suing your employer) so badly nobody will ever hire you except as a temp or consultant again.
Confront the bastard. Well, you can. Most 19-year-olds don't have the maturity and self-control to pull this one off, but you may be the exception. If you do, figure out what your goal is and how you're going to get there ahead of time. Two more hints: First, you won't win if you threaten him, and probably won't if you try to convert the IT guy on the spot by jawing at him.
Second, if you want to win a confrontation, you should ask him (and your immediate boss, too) how you can improve your performance. Tell him you have a kid on the way, and you're serious about trying to be the best employee he has, and has him how to do that. Ask him why he wants to get rid of you, and what you can do to improve so that he wants to keep you. If you don't get any response there, try the IT director's boss, one level up, with the same approach. Then listen, write down what he says, and get to work on those suggestions.
You may want to become a "Master of the Universe," but you obviously are not in a position to get there by acting like one. (For one thing, masters of the universe don't bring their problems to
Are your grammar and dress in line with the rest of your company? The dot.bust has come, and you may be trying to get away with last year's mannerisms. Don't push it too hard. Khakis and no ties you can justify if you routinely crawl around behind machines or lug monitors around. Torn t-shirts and holes in your jeans may chafe a raw spot somewhere up the hierarchy. Keep that up only if you want to remind them you're a special case. The special case they may want to get rid of.
Or quit. Just make sure you have another job lined up before you go. Be sure that if you take this route, you are going to leave. You can look for other work, and test the waters, on your lunch hour or before/after work. But you're not trying to get a raise, you want a job. If you get an offer, you're out of there.
Hey dude,
I can understand that you are upset with what you perceive to be the current situation. However, take a step back and look at it from a critical point of view. Before changing to the IT field in 1996, my accomplishments included running a large food company as Operations Chief, and then co-owning a factory. Granted that the fields are different, but I believe that the past experience plus the current experience as a junior sysadmin and systems troubleshooter, allows me some weight in commenting. b.t.w. I am 37.
First, I think it is great that you got the position. At your age that is a huge plus.You must have accomplished a lot for them to even consider you.
Second, as a former boss I'm aware of the discrimination laws and you really do not have a case. You are in the position already so they didn't discriminate in hiring practices. Nor are you being actively acted against because of your age.
K- here are the comments that might be helpful:
At 37, it is refreshing to work with younger and older people. We all have something to offer. Our IT team works with the Gov't and a few of them are in the early 20's. We value their input and their opinions. Age is not considered
Therefore, some factors must have been either discovered, i.e. let's say about your personality and ability to be a team player; or created, i.e. did you act in an immature manner or criticize others for mistakes.
How well do you take criticism?
Your boss might like you personally but perhaps some items have come to his attention. Your post sounds very defensive, you might be showing this at work and treating your coworkers with suspicion and paranoia.
How do you dress? How well do you speak and communicate with others? Being a sysadmin is more than pounding the keyboard. How is your command of the English language? As a sysadmin you are setting examples and will be held to a higher standard.
Has your company experienced growth? Perhaps newer technologies and economic advances within the company demand someone with either a different skillset or more business savvy.
Have you been watching the bottom line? Keeping an eye on ROI? Submitting reports on time? Are you a team player? How well do you integrate the ideas of others? Your post sounds like its a "me against them" relationship. You arent running the place alone there are many others in IT who are the backbone. Do you value them and give them your time? How do you spend your time at work? You might work fast but what do you do in the downtime? Do you pick up the slack and pitch in or do you stay aloof, maybe even playing games.
Have you done something outlandish that might be perceived as immature? Do you demonstrate mood swings? At your age, mood swings would be seen different than if they were demonstarted in an older employee.
Do you drink? take drugs? talk about drinking and drugs? [ no offense meant, its just that everywhere drugs are not cool- the Govt has just denied school funds from 43,000 college kids because of past drug history]
Do you contribute to weekly or monthly meetings? Have you saved the company money or submitted reports explaining how you saved money or accomplished a given set of tasks?
Have you brought a weapon to work? You might be showing off that new knife or your skills with nunchakus-- your boss and coworkers might feel different. Do you joke about violent actions?
Do you talk excessively about religion? politics? ethnic groups? Are you ON TIME at work? Do you leave early or right at the stroke of the clock?
Do you work hard? Remember that your boss is not your friend. That kind of relationship is separate from his/her being a boss. Over time the boss might become your friend, but a good boss keeps business separate.
After work, with whom do you associate? Have you been caught cracking? Using the company telephones or machines in a personal manner? What is the yearly gross of the company? Do you speak of your coworkers in a critical manner? Do you follow company policy? How did you react when you f*cked something up? We all have so don't be shy.
Discipline and how we react to it is a strong indicator of business and personal maturity.
Finally, just take all of this into consideration and think from an objective point of view. You could approach your boss at a lull in the work day and suggest a meeting with him/her to discuss your work record and performance. Explain that you want to improve and are seeking constructive criticism.
You say your boss likes you, but your boss also tells you that the IT director wants to get rid of you? That's weird -- the IT director is going to get rid of a valuable employee over his immediate boss's objections? What could be causing that? Maybe your boss is not being completely honest with you (could it be that he wants to get rid of you and shift the blame to someone else so he can save himself some guilt when it comes time to fire you?). I'm not saying that's the case, since I don't know the circumstances, but I think you need to consider what may really be happening vs. what people are telling you.
You also say "everywhere I work...as soon as they learn my age they automatically hate me." That's really odd. I can understand some level of jealousy, and even one or two companies that are full of bozos who dislike young whippersnappers like you, but if you are finding this in a variety of different work environments then there may be something else going on. If you are really performing and able to work with people, most companies wouldn't care about your age. Since you are basically saying that your age is ALWAYS a problem, I think you have to ask whether your age -- or more precisely your attitude, level of maturity, or other things that come with your age -- REALLY IS a problem. (I don't say this to be cruel; I was also a precocious kid, was managing six people by age 23, etc; this is my perspective as a now-30-something who knows he made plenty of stupid mistakes in his youth.)
Two suggestions. First, start by making a really candid assessment of the situation, starting with your own behavior. What could you have been doing that would lose you points with your boss, your boss's boss, your coworkers, or other people in the company instead of winning points? Could it be that you make them feel dumb? (There's sometimes a fine line between helping people out and being an obnoxious know-it-all.) Could it be that you don't behave in a "professional" manner? Could you be really full of yourself? (There's a big difference between telling people your age and flaunting it.) Could it be that you actually made decisions, or advocate positions, that are bad for the company? (In my experience, this is a common one among young people who are very smart but lack business wisdom -- they may get all up in arms because they're convinced they have the Right Answer about some technical issue, but they fail to consider the larger business concerns.)
Second, take pre-emptive action. If you think you might get fired, you need to be ready with an alternative. Polish up your resume, get in touch with old contacts who might know where you could find a new position (referrals are always much better than answering random want ads or Monster postings), etc. But be careful not to neglect your responsibilities in the meantime -- you want to be a model employee. And DO NOT talk about this with anyone other than your immediate boss! Being a chatterbox will only reinforce any image of you as immature.
Personally I wouldn't suggest legal recourse, because I doubt you'll really get anywhere with it. There's not a whole lot of precedent I'm aware of (IANAL, of course) for "reverse" age discrimination, and furthermore, actually proving that's what led to your firing (should it come to that) might be really difficult. It certainly won't exactly be something you'll want to brag about to your next employer.
Good luck.
"Biped! Good cranial development. Evidently considerable human ancestry."
It seems to me like this is the "Hi, I'm 19-24, never went to college, am a kick ass programmer with TONS of experience but am stuck professionally! HELP!!!!" week.
I don't intend to offend you, but you must know some things:
1. Face it: college is IMPORTANT. Go study now while you still can. You may argue that you're married with kids now, but you're still young -- don't wait until you're 30 to say "I should've gone to college back when I was 20 and could".
2. Programming is cool, but it's not everything that matters. Once you learn calculus, statistics and logic you'll have better ways to solve problems. You'll see that there are solutions other than brute force.
3. Programming can be extremely easy next to mathematics. It's often much simpler to devise something that "just works" rather than developing it carefully and proving why it's the best solution.
4. Cutting and pasting perl/php for 5 years doesn't count as real work. Nor does assembling computers/networks. Just installing and updating software doesn't count as professional system administration.
5. The computer stuff you did in high school doesn't count as real world experience.
6. Whether you like it or not, most companies will NEVER consider you and most professionals won't respect you if you don't have a degree. You will keep losing arguments even though you're right.
7. You'll never know how much you lack unless you go to college.
In short, you may be stuck professionally for a reason other than age discrimination. Perhaps being a kick ass programmer isn't all that matters.
Try denying someone a legal "necessity" due to their age, e.g., only renting apartments to people over 25. A car rental, and a beer, are legally luxuries. But denying food, housing, or employment due to age alone is a very different thing.
That said, what's often overlooked in the "discrimination" complaints is that it is rare for for companies to be denied the ability consider other pertinent factors. Car insurance is more expensive for young drivers because they're involved in a disproportionate number of accidents. Car rental companies saw the same thing - not every renter in their early 20's trashed the car, but enough did that they can legitimately demand far higher standards for those rentals. (I haven't checked the policies in a long time, but there's a huge difference between "no rental under any circumstances" and "rental only with large deposit.")
In this case, the reason most age-discrimination actions protect older workers is because it's hard to come up with legitimate reasons why a person is suddenly unsuitable for a position they have held for years. Historically, when mostly older workers are terminated it's because the company wants to cut salary (and benefits) costs, nothing else. In contrast, very young workers have a far harder time proving that they can do everything their job requires.
This guy says he's had good reviews... but he also claims to have 5 years experience starting around age 14. Either he broke a lot of laws (child labor laws, school truancy laws) or he's exaggerating. So are those reviews good, or did they include a lot of "needs further work" items that he's downplaying? Is he doing everything required for the position, or are some older coworkers covering some tasks?
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
I wonder if "intimidatingly smart" is doublespeak for something else. I meet really really smart people a lot, and don't feel intimidated (I'm not so smart, so maybe I'm just oblivious ;-)
OTOH, I've met a fare share of moderately intelligent assholes who have a chip on their shoulder about how smart they are.
0.02
Tales from behind the Lagom Curtain
Since I don't know you I hope you won't take this personally...it's just something to consider.
I started working in IT full time when I was 16 (I graduated from HS early). I felt I was being discriminated against because of my age a lot over the years, and I know many times I was right. Looking back however I realize I wasn't as experienced or mature as I thought, and while I think I was exceptionally good at my job, that lack of maturity and experience kept me from being promoted as I felt I deserved.
One thing I learned is that people will often tell you something like "the boss just doesn't like you because of xxxx" when really they don't want to tell you the truth, which is "you are too immature to work here". A few of my younger friends over the years got fired because they were simply too immature, but that's not what they were told. People don't want to hurt your feelings, so they sometimes tell you something that will hurt less, or is easier to say.
Ok, having said that...even if it is discrimination, all you can do is try to be mature about it. If they are going to treat you lousy, find another place to work. In my experience (I'm 29 now) some people can deal with a young person who is technically bright better than others. You will enjoy working with those people the most.
It has recently come to my attention that our IT Director is trying to either find a way to get rid of me or transfer me into a miserable job position, all because of my age. My Boss explained to me he thinks it has to do with a bit of jealousy. Everyone I work with is over the age of 30 and the IT director is in his mid 40's.
:)
:) 2) Your direct boss is always %#$@$head, you'd understand when you are somebody's boss.
However, I think there's story behind the story, at least I've reason to believe that the IT director might not want to get rid of you because of your age.
It might be your own attitude and the degree of confidence they've on you. You might have shown your attitude to others because you think they were not as young and as smart as you. Given all these, management do not have confidence giving you anything important. (It happened to my first job, at the time I thought I were very smart and in fact I were, but that became a blindspot for me - well, many people has that problem in their first job) Most people learnt to work with people soon after, but few would become arrogant bastards as we know them.
Second, your direct boss might have lied to you. Your IT Director might not want to get rid of you - all he cares is whether someone could give value to the company. The jealousy might be coming from no other but your direct boss. Who is most hurted if you got management attention and promoted? Guess what, not the IT Director, but your boss.(I've the experience in my current %$@# job. It's always the case the one you most trusted is the one who backstabbing you.)
Therefore, I feel like hearing my own story when hearing yours. Now you must bear in mind 1) if you think you are young and smart, it's unavoidable you *must* work with someone who are old and dumb. Be nice to them.
Discrimination like this will always happen, no matter what century; in fact, I think it might be better to call it 'jelousy' than 'discrimination.'
In any case, your best choice is to get out now. Look at the two possible outcomes:
1. He succeeds: you get fired. Then you have to explain the situation to other employers, who might just think you are making up a story to justify termination.
2. You prevent him from dumping you through legal means. Well, congradulations; now you have a guy who hates you for the rest of your life, and will do every little thing he can to sabatoge you. Sounds like a great place to work!
Being a young sysadmin with a bunch of young sysadmin friends, I can honestly tell you that this sort of thing happens pretty often, some crotchety old bugger getting pissed off when he realizes that someone half his age is making nearly as much money as he is.
Your best bet at this point is probably to quit and go find a job elsewhere that pays more, which will likely send your stupid coworkers into whole new levels of pissed off. Good luck.
My company hired me and the president of the company has a grudge against me. Maybe it's jealously, maybe he's just not around me enough get a grasp on my personality.
Needless to say, the best way to get a promotion is to quit and get a new job. Seriously. The good ol' boy mentality that unions and massive corporations can afford aren't so afforded by smaller and medium sized companies.
And as much as it sucks, federally there is nothing you can do. The EEO laws state that age discrimination applies to 40 and above. The best thing you can do at this point is check your state laws to see if there is something that can be done.
A third option you might have is to get a hold of your representatives in the house and senate. While there may be nothing that could be done to help you, you might be able to get laws past that could help others.
But more than likely, if they want you gone, they will find some way to do it that is legal. A director isn't a director because he/she fell into it, they are a director because they have survived, and they know what it takes to make it through.
Good luck. Sounds like you are going to need it.
Random Musings
Start your own consulting business by yourself.... The only problem for me, is when my boss sexualy herasses me whenever I'm alone with a fast internet conection....
Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.
unless you company is wildly short sighted I doubt that this is the case.
many times when people feel persecuted at work they build up a defense mechanism wherein the company will fold if they leave.
in any solid company _everyone_ is replaceable.
take your mad skillz and get a degree. that will ensure you some level of respect. then it will be up to you to loose or maintain that level.
This
Get EVERYTHING documented. You do a good thing? Get it documented. You complete a task? DO NOT tell anybody face to face. Send an email. Keep the email, and the 'attaboy' reply archived. Print them out, even. That way, you've got stuff to take to HR if suddenly get a termination notice; they take note of those 'out of the blue' problems. If you're feeling lucky, put together a touchy-feely email to your boss, CC'd to the age-hater in question, and the head of HR, saying how much you enjoy your work environment, because nobody discriminates against your age; gosh, at some places, it's not how well you do the job, it's if you went to the right school, or play golf with the right people, or are 30+, and isn't it great that doesn't happen here?
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
First off I apologize for my grammer. Secondly I have 5 years real world experince and I am not talking about running some pethetic highschool network.
.5 years and have worked at my currecnt job for 1 year. That is 5 years of real world experience.
I was home schooled and graduated at 15. I got my first real full time Job at Best Buy Inc as A PC Tech, I worked there for 2 years. Then I worked at a Game Development company for 1.5 years. I then worked at another Software Developemnt company for
Third, I have my 6 month review that says other wise. I got almost all good remarks, true I got the usuall, late a few times, everyone gets that, but there is always room to improve IMHO, and I am not claiming to be anything I am not.
I dont have a college degree but have started back to school to pursue my CS degree. I do have my MCSE, RHCE and am currently pursing some Cisco certification, but like others have said nothing is as good as a college degree except a college degree and I 100% agree with that.
Lastly and I stress this fact would all the trolls and flamers that have no sound advice, just not say anything at all ? That would be nice.
Oh, and one last thing, I am not one to sue for millions of dollars I am simply talking if they fire me because of my age I would simply want enough severance to take care of my family.
Anyway thanks to everyone for some good advice.
No, it's not. While it is certainly valuable experience -- I'm a professional software developer now, and you can bet I listed my early part-time programming work on my CV at first -- comparing that to full experience of the same length of time is misleading at best. A part-time job such as you describe does not provide the same level of immersion into the position as a full-time job would. It simply isn't as "full on".
Quite rightly, almost no-one in the industry is going to give you the same amount of credit in your position as a guy who's been running a network full-time for 8 years. Furthermore, if you go around making exaggerated claims like that, they'll mark you down for the implicit dishonesty, and possibly use it as grounds for dismissal at a later date.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Generally, management (whether a supervisor, mananger, director, VP, etc.) doesn't sit around throwing darts at a phone list deciding who to pick on next. Usually you "earn" the right to extra attention--both positive and negative.
Lots of times, you may not even know what has attracted their attention, but rest assured, something has.
One other note: Don't be so sure about your manager. It's a fact of the business world that just because somebody tells you that they're loyal and watching out for you, doesn't mean that they're not really the one putting the bad reports about you into the director's ear.
You know, I agree with a lot of the sentiment of your post, but
Its like this, spudboy.."industry experience" means sleeping on the floor of your office overnight because you need to babysit half a dozen mission-critical AIX, Solaris and IRIX boxes following a complete power-failure and network outage, because if you dont, the entire department's workload might grind to a halt, and the company will lose $30,000 per minute until its fixed.
When I was 20 (all of 4 years ago) and managing a network for 200 users, 50 client machines - I spent many a long night recovering from various failures due to a very small budget and the fact that everything (except the Cisco switches - they were sweet, and never caused any problems apart from a lightning strike killing one (doh!)) Having now done the same thing in more 'industry' setting (that was a college network), I can say that it's very similar.
On the other hand, the person who replaced me in that college position sounded similar (in his brag-sheet) to mr '5 years experience' above.. The line that really got me was 'a few certifications'. Mr PFY-type had done the coursework for a CCNA (not actually done the tests or been certified) - and wrote a long document talking about how my very reliable Perl based user tracking and billing system was not 'industry standard', and should be replaced by a pile of expensive Cisco stuff because that was 'Industry Standard[tm]'. He also had a MSCE and wanted to install Exchange, etc (we didn't even provide email services, because the Uni provided all that and less work for us meant less cost - plus mail services have a heavy support load). Oh, did I mention he included _every_ certification, including that CCNA he didn't have, in his 'title' at the top of the document. It read like a 'these are my ideas, which are mine. Me - this one with all the letters. ME!'.
I think the biggest problem I see with youngsters (including myself at the ripe old age of 24) is that we tend to want to try everything - and change all the time just for the sake of playing with new things.
At least (I hope), I don't do to much 'THIS IS ME WITH ALL THESE LETTERS AND YEARZ OF EXP!RIeNC3 d00d!@!!!!!!1111!!!'.
That's not big, and it's not clever. For all the millions of employees worldwide, this is a small industry. You might want a reference from your current boss in future, or you might later wind up working again for someone at your present company, either back there or elsewhere. If you demonstrate that you're a grade A scumball by leaving without notice or badmouthing the boss/company as you go, it may well come back to haunt you sooner or later.
Never underestimate the power of networking. Leaving a good impression can give you contacts in the industry who can valuable open doors for you later on. On the other hand, a reputation as someone awkward or unhelpful will spread far faster and further than you'd like.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
I got my first professional job at 16. I was offered the position at 14 but didn't accept it for two years. I did data analysis, 3d rendering, and helped a bit with some programming. I also did some general IT work.
I'm 29 now and it's still on my resume. I also have a letter of reference from my employer to prove it.
Nothing is more frustrating to the young person who takes his or her parents' advice and goes and gets a real job to get real experience than to have people tell them they must be a liar.
I advise you to remember that these sorts of things do happen occasionally, and a much better attitude than "I don't believe you, prove it!" would be "here is how you can document your experience".
For the young person in question, my advice is to talk to your direct supervisor(s), past and present if necessary, and get a letter of reference on company letterhead. These letters not only can be produced at any review or termination proceedings (give them a *copy*, not the original), but also can be of excellent use in future jobhunting: when an employer gets 20 resumes for a job, the one with several letters from past employers saying the person did a good job stands out, and such letters have gotten me several jobs in the past. (One employer looked at my letters and called to offer me the job.) If you actually do good work, usually the boss is more than happy to write you such a letter upon request.
Tom
Management 101: no-one is unreplaceable.
Management 201: it is cheaper to fix a problem early.
A smart manager will see your little power-trip for exactly what it is. You will get marked down as a liability, and dispensed with as soon as possible.
If you have concerns, you may want to speak to your manager. If he's any good, you do want to speak to him, because it's in everyone's interests to resolve the issue quickly and effectively. But do it privately, politely and diplomatically, not in a macho, chest-banging show of public frustration.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
I had an employer tell me outright that they knew they were paying me less than half what I was worth and that they agreed that I was consequently not receiving a market competitive salary and that I did superb quality work and that they had absolutely no complaints about me, but that they had no intention of paying me a market-competitive salary because it galled the boss to hand a $70k salary to a 24-year-old, so I should shut up and take the $30k I was getting and be grateful they were offering me a $3k raise because that's all I deserved at my age.
I looked into age discrimination law, and discovered that in Massachusetts we're protected against being discriminated against for being too old, but not for being young.
So, I left the company. It was the worst thing I could do to them. They were going to have to pay a lot more to get a competent person, and I was better not to have the stress.
Yeah, discrimination exists. I taught myself Linux (with help from wonderful people on the net and books of course) at age 32. I wanted a career change from being a truck driver. You wanna talk about discrimination? Try jumping from blue collar work to white collar work at my age.
But I figured I could either whine about it and try to change the whole IT industry or I could try to change myself, my approach to resumes, interviews, dress...whatever and hope to find a cool place to work where they viewed my ambition to change careers as a positive thing and not a weird thing.
I found one after sending out 600+ resumes.
This guy is young, experienced and has a whole wide world of careers and/or schooling ahead of him. Either his employers are ingrates and should be ditched as quickly as possible or he has some other flaws that ARE the real reason people want him out.
Either way the solution is up to him alone and not 'society'.
I've lost a job or two because I am pagan. I have also been descriminated against in other places for the same reason. It is sad that people in today's society still need to make themselves feel better by opressing those who are different.
ttyl
Farrell
CAN-CON 2019 - Ottawa's only book oriented Science Fiction Convention! October 18-20, Sheraton Hotel, Ottawa, Canada h
Start actively, though discreetly, looking for another position. As one of the other posters stated, if you you keep your job by legal means, the guy will hate you, if you get laid off or fired you have a problem trying to explain. If you can get another offer, that will ease your mind, and give you some clout with the big boss. Tell him you like working there, but the situation has become unbearable, knowing that for whatever reason, this one guy seems to be out to stop you at every turn. Suggest a meeting with the three of you to try to work through the issues. If the guy who seems to have it in for you refuses, then you've won and he loses credibility. You've taken the high road, and he has refused to co-operate. If your boss has any sense at all, it will be the other guy that gets the boot, not you. Keep in mind that this is business and you have to get along. If the other guy won't play nice, then he's the one who should be sent home. In any case have a way ready to bail, if it doesn't work out. By offering to work things out you've shown your maturity, and willingness to work together. That is an asset to any company. If it doesn't work out and you leave, you have gained the respect of your boss, who will most likely write a glowing letter of recommendation. (he would rather do that than admit his faults, for not getting rid of the troublemaker).
A couple years ago I was in one of those big warehouses that sell used office furniture. They had a fairly nice network covering the whole building, with a good POS and inventory setup. When I complimented the owner on it, he got all proud and parenty and introduced me to his son, the sysadmin. who was maybe 15, probably a little younger. He'd not only chosen the hardware and software, he'd pulled all the cable himself. ("Easy in an old building. Walls and floors aren't hard to get through.") Can't imagine a competent IS manager who wouldn't want to hire somebody like that.
We all know stories like this. Teenagers are just the right age to pick up these kinds of abstrat technical concepts, and they enjoy the work. Of course, in the process they show up old farts like me. Hence the resentment.
"I left home at 21, convinced that my father was the stupidest person in the world. When I returned 5 years later, I was amazed at how much he'd learned."
-Mark Twain
I think this is exactly what's happening with the submittor. As others have pointed out, his "experience" claims are surely an indication that he probably doesn't really know as much as he thinks he does.
I've read alot of comments, people saying he's too young to have professional experience of 5 years. When I was a freshman in highschool, I was offered the chance to work part time as an assistant to a systems administrator at the local FAA. I took it. From that point on, I did part time sys-admin work all over the place. I was 14 at the time. Because of my age, I did need to file some paperwork at some government office in order to get around all those child labor laws, but still.
Anyhow, on to the problem. Probably 4 years ago I worked a job where I was heavily descriminated against because of my age. I was able to keep them at bay by doing as someone else suggested from the Art of War, act weak when you are strong, act strong when you are weak. It's a nice quote but it only works so far.
The problem was my age still kept poping up. I was passed up for promotions despite being the most qualified for a given position and my clean working record. The whole weak-strong thing only prevented me from being harassed about my age, or forced to work overtime simply beacuse they could.
Really, you can do lots of things but removing all the grey areas you have three; Stay. Protest. Quit.
You could just tough it out. Suffer with your boss, try to win his favor, etc. It's been my experience that this never works.
You could file a complaint with the Dept. of Justice, or (if you're lucky) a union, or the Human Resources department if they have a grevience process. Still, this only rocks the boat. You'll find that the worst kind of descrimination is the one that you don't see happening. It seems like your boss has been fairly public about his dislike of you based on your age. If you file a complain it's likly this sort of descrimination will simply go underground. Most cases of harassment I've seen rocking the boat only makes matter worse, often times moving up the descrimination to the executive level. Corporates don't like people willing to rock the boat.
Finally, and this one I strongly suggest; Quit. Leave. Don't look back. Don't sue, don't whine, don't talk about it unless asked. Find and new job and never worry about this shit again.
Just my two cents. Oh, and good luck.
Do you include those four years as professional, years? I have had internship and part-time work.
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
Perhaps more to the point, if you employ a programmer good enough to be interchangeable, the last thing you'll be wanting to do is fire him...
However, the key thing is that programmers develop a level of experience and knowledge that is specific to the projects on which they've worked. As a result, they become much more valuable with time, and in some cases, the cost of moving or firing them becomes very, very prohibitive.
Unfortunately, that's not much help to a sysadmin. You just don't have the same level of variety in sysadmin work, and there's much less company- or project-specific knowledge to have. Everyone is expendable, but it's harder for a sysadmin to make it expensive to expend them.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
"You are so full of shit."
Am I?
The elementary school I went to was one of the first in Illinois to have computers put in..even more rare, computers that were actually available for the students to use. Prairie Elementary, District 203, Naperville. Look it up. Probably in autumn 1979 or so.
While I wasn't exactly writing 2048-bit crypto engines, I was writing simple text games by second grade and doing crude GR-mode graphics programming by about the third grade. I only lived two houses away from the school, so often times I'd stay after school to play with the computers, play Lemonade, Moppettown Parade and Swords & Sorcery until the custodians threw me out around 5 PM. In particular, I remember modding Lemonade so that the weather was always thunderstorms, because I thought the lightning bolt animation was awesome. Was writing war games by 5th grade. Got in trouble in 6th grade because I carried around a blue folder with the words "GENOCIDE" on it..Some of my teachers had voiced some concern (heh) about why I was working so much on it. I kept all my code hand-written on paper, and after school would sit down and type it all in. In particular, I remember how difficult it was to draw the paths of the missiles on a 40x40 GR mode screen. Had no idea what a parabola was, so I hard-coded the strike paths using about 13 pages of VLIN, HLIN and PLOT statements. Never finished it.
What else do you wanna know about how "so full of shit" I am?
Bowie J. Poag
You could have prevented this by lying about your age. It's illegal for an employer to ask your age, and you can certainly lie to coworkers about it.
I know someone who did precisely this and ended up in a fairly high position which he would have not otherwise been put if it hadn't been for his lying.
I'm 26, but you can be damn sure that I will lie about my age at my next job. I ran into the same issues at my previous job also, no promotion because I was too young, told to me by my boss (that bitch). Even though I was way more qualified than the person that they eventually hired. I quit, and he got fired shortly after for screwing things up.
Need Free Juniper/NetScreen Support? JuniperForum
In this thread and the recent one about a fast-track CS degree, we see confusion about the value of age and experience.
I'm pretty old for a slashdot reader, and have been coding as a main career activity since the 70s. I'm a solid coder, but I've known four great programmers. At least two of them achieved their greatness before they were twenty. Each of them is worth ten of me, and I'm not bad at all.
The fact that one can reach greatness as a coder before the age of 20 implies to me that coding ability is predominantly about a flavor of innate intelligence, and only secondarily about theoretical knowledge or experience. On the other hand, both of these precocious geniuses were CS undergrads at top-flight schools, so the firehose effect counts for something as well.
On the other hand, I've been a manager and a business owner. I know that raw talent isn't all there is to doing a job well. One person I supervised, not one of the greats but a solid talent, was under 20, and holding his first real job. Unrealistic expectations about the nature of private sector employment caused big problems. Inability to take hints and make compromises caused big problems. It wasn't that he was under 20, it was that he was unseasoned in dealing with groups and collaborations.
Your value added to your employer isn't only your core professional talent. Your ability to participate effectively in group efforts has a lot to do with it as well.
Of course, there isn't enough information about the original poster to know if non-core people skills are really the problem, rather than age per se. There are a couple of clues beyond age that incline me to suspect so, though.
Anyway, I've never known anyone at the age of 20 to have profound 10-times-better-than-47-year-old-me people skills though. That's a domain where experience counts for a lot.
For the original poster and other wunderkinds, I recommend tempering your pride with a dash of humility. Raw technical ability isn't everything.
----
mt
No doubt. See, i'm sure he's a bright kid and all...but you don't run around comparing your "experience" to that of your bosses, who probably have been doing what you do for longer than you've even been alive. You'll come off as nothing short of a "snot-nosed kid".
If he's truly good at what he does, the wheat will rise above the chaff regardless of what happens in the long run. This isn't a case of "age discrimination" as much as it is "you've got a long way to go before you can compare your experience to mine, kid. Start down here, and work your way up with the rest."
Bowie J. Poag
No shit.
I dont know why you guys have such a hard time understanding the concept of my learning how to code in BASIC at age 4. Its not like they singled me out and taught me specifically -- It was part of the curriculum, the whole class learned what HOME and PRINT and RUN meant..Hell, I even remember the first day they wheeled it into the classroom.
Cheers,
Bowie J. Poag
I'm one of those old people you are bitching about, but we go through the same crap too.
Corporate politics tends to control who gets what positions or transfers. People who know their technical chops are weak, play the political game to surivive. What sucks is it tends to work, because the people above making the decisions are even less technical, all they know is this guy is feeding them info, or its their friend. Reality is you can't survive on technical skills alone (unless your a guru level) you have to learn to play the political game too. Hard part is finding a balance so you don't end up becoming a technical zero and having to suck up to survive.
Bottom line, nothing in life is fair. I know in my career sometimes when in a sucky situation like yours, I ended up getting a better job or position afterwards. You just need to decide if its going to be at that company or another.
Last one comment on your (and others) were young and smarter comments. In the real world it's more than technical sharpness that matters. Knowing how the business world works, understanding why companies make the decisions they do from a marketing, business, HR and other perspectives is important. Take a look at the people moving up the food chain. Unless they are a technical god, they are people who know the business world as well as their area of expertice. They have also networked with others above them to let them know they are well rounded. You can't survive on technical chops alone.
0. everyone has skeletons in their closet- FIND them.
1. Every ORG I have ever been with has a problem with software licenseing. they need x # of copies on y # of computers, but don't have the licenses. Doucment EVERY time you are told to install software that you KNOW your company does not have a license for, record date, software, time, and WHO told you to do it.
2. Does not hurt if you also send messages to your boss stating things like "what do we do if we are audited?"- basicly anything that you can do to cover your rear and show you tried to address the problem.
3. They try to get rid of you, on your last week, have a meeting with your boss and his boss, and tell them you are calling the SPA, and sue for mental damage caused by your guilt feelings over having to perform illegal acts to keep your job.
Life is Long, But the years are short, NOT- while evil days come not
But, this is not age discrimination. Under the federal law (and most states too) it is illegal to discriminate on age over 40, but not for being under 40. To show that you were discriminated by race/sex/disability the treatement that your race/sex/disability received from the treatement of others.
Of course, when I asked for time to receive medical treatement, the management of Mattel / MSI / TLC started harassming me, following me around, keeping secret surveilance logs, monitoring my internet access from home.
Fight Spammers!
5 Years is very true ! 2 Years as A PC Tech at Best Buy. 1.5 Years as a Admin-Developer for a Game Dev/Publisher .5 Years as a Dev-Analyst at another Software Company.
1 Year at my current job.
You may find it hard to belive but I don't.I am the one living it. I was home schooled and graduated at 15. I immediatelly started working at Best Buy, true Best Buy is not the greatest of jobs but it's a foot in the door. I have a family now and I feel I have had just as much "life experience" as any 25 year old.
As for background, MCSE, RHCE, working on CISCO.
Starting college this spring.
The problem I've seen in the industry with the younger crowd is that a lot (not all) of them assume that their decent computer skills also mean they have elevated maturity and judgement. A 12 year old can kick ass at chess and programming, but that doesn't automatically make them valuable to a team of working people.
I sat in a meeting with two other developers in our mid 30s, and one guy who was 22. We old farts worked the problem, the young guy went on an on about how the things we were working around should also be fixed and how the other applications we had to talk to were poorly designed. These were things we all knew, but we had the judgement, and to some extent the professional respect, not to harp on.
My gut feeling is that the fellow asking the question has alienated more than just the director. But it's hard to fault him, since he was probably raised by parents too concerned with his "self-esteem" too convey any sense of humility to him, which is essential to surviving in the workplace.
Will always prevail against youth and skill
Unfortunately, it is true.
--jeff
ipv6 is my vpn
You just committed legal malpractice. That is not the law in the United States, though it may be state law in one or two cases.
This should not have been moderated up as insightful, but down as "just plain wrong" or "ignorant."
hawk, exq.
Feel free to email me about the problem you're having. Your's and mine are very similar problems. macdaddy@ieee.org
There have been numerous comments made about how it isn't correct to count 5 years of work experience between ages 14-19 as "5 years of industry experience". I don't disagree with this at all-- work done in high school, especially part time and for internships, is not equivalent to coming in every day for 8+ hours for 5 years, as an adult.
/so/ much smarter than everyone else my old fogey managers don't listen to me!" kind of thing. I've had the good fortune to work for and around some stunningly bright people (enough to know when I'm sometimes outgunned), and in some ways have learned more about what I /don't/ know that what I do. But I have worked hard and made a real effort to build up experience that will make me an attractive candidate for employment when I graduate next term. Many of my classmates don't have as much work experience as I do any way you look at it, and in this tight economy I obviously want to get that across, as well as the general notion that while I'm not exactly a seasoned professional, I have a reasonable understanding of my strengths and weaknesses in the workplace, at least enough not to make a complete ass of myself politically (and technically).
So, bearing that in mind, how are we supposed to talk about experience? I'm 20 and got my first job at 15, doing data entry and document layout for a startup, and had done some volunteer tech support for my high school before then. Since then I've done various (corporate and academic) sysadmin and programming work, and some work as a data analyst. I think all of this counts in some way as experience in the field-- even if it isn't equivalent to an adult's experience, neither am I talking about mowing lawns, flipping burgers, or fixing my grandparents' PC. This was real work for real companies, with problem solving, customer interaction, and exposure to office politics.
So far, when people ask me how many years of experience I have, I tend to say that "I've been working in IT since I was 15" (demonstrably true), rather than "I have 5 years of experience" (shaky ground). My resume makes it clear that much of this work was part time while attending school. Is that acceptable?
Please understand that I'm not trying to pull a "But, but, I'm 20 years old and even though I'm
I find it offensive when people discount my experience as worthless out of hand, probably like someone with 30 years in the industry gets annoyed when a 25 year old tries to play games of one-upmanship.
How can I talk about what I view as valuable time and experience in the workplace without coming off as a cocky know-it-all?
---- I'm going to lead you kicking and screaming, giggling and laughing into the future.
I think that's the key thing, right there. Some people are natural hackers, and going to be great at programming. Some people get a formal education in computer science, and have a better knowledge base as a result. The best people have both.
A couple of years on a technical course may give you better "real world" experience, but if you want real world experience and minimal training costs, you shouldn't be hiring grads anyway. Anyone who's a natural hacker and also has a CS background will catch up and overtake the guys without the formal CS background in a matter of months, even with minimal training.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
I recently had a 19 year old student on a 4 month university co-op program. Good programmer, easy to get along with, but behaved more like a 16 year old at times.
...
There were no specific issues, but enough to not want him on a long term basis. Examples work better here.
1) Asked to leave early Thursday and take Friday off to go sking. Okay, not a problem, except for the 9:00 PM Sunday message on my office voice mail asking me if it was okay to take Monday off. Comes in late on Tuesday and only explanation was he was having too much fun partying. Not a real biggy if he didn't have a habit of coming in once a week late after partying. Usual excuse was he would work 10-6 instead of the offices usual 8-4. Note: office is in a secure building, guess what supervisor had to do the paperwork.
2) Refused to include error checking in his software. Claimed his code was perfect, and error checking was for people who write buggy code, besides it let to code bloat and slowed things down.
Needless to say we gave him a negative review, which resulted in him not getting credit for the workterm. We considered this a failure on our part, since good performance is a team effort, and no one works alone. And its not like we didn't try and try and try
His response: Your jealous because I am younger, smarter and will make more money that you when I graduate. Too bad he couldn't listen, or notice the fall out of the dot.com job market.
What did RJ do to piss off his IT Manager? Sure, I'll bet that we've all been victims of age discrimination at one time or another, like being expected to work longer hours and take on crummier projects than the "old folks". That said, I've rarely seen anyone fired for being too young, unless there is a reasonable explanation behind it.
We can only take guesses from what the story that has been told, but I'd imagine that something more than a clash of egos is going on here. Perhaps RJ has been gloating that he knows more than his co-workers to the wrong people, or that his skills really aren't quite as good as he thinks they are. Any 19 year old who says that he has 5 years experience raises suspicion immediately. Maybe he's been bad-mouthing his manager behind his back, the manager knows, and he's angry about it. Considering that RJ has posted his problems to Slashdot for the whole world to see, it's pretty obvious he isn't one of those people who like to keep his feelings to himself.
Or, maybe RJ is just overreacting to some rumors that he heard. Some people just like gossip to start trouble, and younger employees are usually the first to fall for it. Who knows, maybe his boss really DOES hate his guts, and really is out to get him! I doubt it, and would need some more proof before I completely believe RJ's story. That's one of the biggest problems with these "Ask Slashdot" posts, as you rarely get to hear both sides of an issue.
The management turned a blind eye when your fellow employees would grill you about your religion, and anybody who would admit to a 'strange' religion (or no religion at all) didn't last long in that company.
A 'pagan' or atheist is going to have a hard time get the EEOC to take an interest in their claim of discrimination.
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
I've always wondered what it matters what or who you are as long as you can do the job. In many peoples mind they may think this as well, but how many practice it?
How many times have men in the workplace descriminated or made fun of women cause most women in tech are inferior. I have meet two woman who are 'tech savy' the rest of the women I have meet in tech don't want to be. They get there and then they want to get into management. I have meet to many people that are not college educated and are young in the tech industry and many still want to 'play' on the job rather than work. You may not fall into this case, but it is something to consider. Beleive it or not college is kinda like a 'proving ground'. While you may already have the computer skill, you may not have the same 'maturity' that comes from college grads.
While you may be good at your job, are you mature? If everyone around you is around 30, I'd be willing to bet you they are all married or settled down in their carreer. By 30 most people are finally established. Personally I find it difficult to believe that you were 15 when you first started working in IT, but that is because when I was 15 work was the last thing on my mind.
Maybe your boss is worried that you will leave or know to much and are making him feel insecure. If this is the case then maybe he is actually worried that someone like you could take his job.
I am not sure there is much you can do unless you can actually prove that he is descriminating against you for your age and not something else. you may ask your fellow coworkers how they view you. Not jsut as a fellow employee, but as a person as well. Maybe he just does not feel like he can trust you. Older people have problems trusting younger people especially if there is an age difference of more than 10 year.
Only 'flamers' flame!
I find it helpful to have other hobbies that take my mind off programming and work. Quitting a job before you've found a new one isn't easy to do, but it all depends on your tolerance for political back stabbing and bs. My tolerance is low, so I politely say my goodbyes and find a new job.
Being the victim of descrimination is never an easy thing to take, but rather than just bitch about how bad you have it, remember there are those who have it a lot worse. Try being a gay hispanic catholic woman and see how much worse others have it. You're fortunate enough to work at a job you like, so make the most of a bad situation or simply find a new job.
The best revenge is long term. In 8-10 years, your boss and fellow workers will be nearly unemployable, whilst you will be merely less young.
Everything is in front of you; just wait for it.
But, remember what it felt like to be discriminated against for you age when youare peering at someone's resume some day. Judge on the merits, or the potential, not the calendar, when you are the hirer.
Well, so sayeth the law, but don't believe everything the law says. There are hundreds of ways to get rid of over-40's withut tripping the age alarm, and anyway, even if it is blatant, it's a matter of getting someone to give a rat's ass if you are fired because of your age.
All in all, better to be young than poor. An IT worker over 40 is in a heap o' trouble if he/she loses their job. A 20 year old is merely out for a while - an older worker might as well try selling insurance.
Oversimplified? Of course. A lot of it is simple monkey politics - mentors and protectors, ins and outs, alphas and betas, appearance and perception above all else. Skills and dedication mean bupkis if no one cares to notice.
I still think that starting your own business is one of the few ways of getting out from under people politics. Of course, then you enter the realm of CUSTOMER politics, but that's another story.
Most older people (35+) are cool, and will recognize your greater talent so long as you don't try to disregard their greater experience. In other words, let them tell you what the goals are, and they'll let you tell them how they can best be reached. But some people will resent you... ex: where I work there's this one old asshole. His skills have not been current for 20 years, so he can't really do anything besides lecture people. Every chance he gets, he's trying to dominate or patronize the younger guys. Alernatively disparaging their abilities or giving them wise (bullshit) advice. Since this guy has no social skills, he is not a manager (he can't fire anyone). But maybe you have become a victim of a similar guy.
You can try to go to "Mr. Asshole"'s boss and formally ask for a resolution. Maybe you can get reassigned to an area where you won't be under Mr. Asshole anymore. When your boss hates you, there's not a lot you can do. You've just got to remove yourself from the situation, either by switching bosses or switching companies. Remember, if Mr. Asshole had the power to unilaterally fire you, he would have done it already. If you can't make a lateral transition into another job, then your choice becomes simple. Keep doing good work, hang on until the economy gets better, and then ditch that company. From this point forward, you should be saving all the cash you can and be mentally ready to quit at any time. In your exit interview, make sure you mention you're leaving because of Mr. Asshole. (Don't excessively disparage him, because that is unprofessional.) Good luck...
"The advanced societies of the future will be driven by competing systems of psychopathology." -JG Ballard
Read "Every Employee's Guide To The Law" by Lewin G. Joel III. It's published by Pantheon Books in the USA. It contains a chapter on what to do if you have been wrongly fired. It also contains a lot of advice on how to handle discrimination issues before somebody ends up getting fired.
The excuse being used is that the people who occassionally see their kids aren't working the same number of hours as we 24-year old single folks. This is being enforced by our VP, who has two kids but typically spends 80+ hours at work a week (no problem with priotiries there, eh?).
Hell, just last week the person in the cube next to me got a talking-to because she "left early" (went to see her son's orchestra concert -- at 7 PM). My veep told 'er if she does it again she'll be "in a bad position for future layoffs".
Of course, if you read my past comments about my company, this shouldn't be too shocking. I can't wait for the economy to recover so I can escape that shithole.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
Why did you tell them your age? Legally they only need to know that you are 18+. That's where your response should end (if you care). I also question 5 years experience at age 20. Did you drop out of highschool? Maybe that's why they are going to fire you.
Corporate america sucks. At least you are learning this while you are young. As a person who has been there, take this advice: DON'T QUIT. Keep a record of your projects for future resumes, I've learned that when you leave a company, most of them cannot give you any kind of a recommendation besides 'Yes, they worked here from X to Y.' Leagally any recommendations could come back to bite them. Ride it out, and pick the right time to strike.
---
"That's Homer Simpson sir. One of your drones from sector 7G."
There are one or two companies in the world that really are that bad, but they never last long. Are you perhaps exaggerating a little to make your point?
The companies I know of -- and there are many -- where you or I probably wouldn't work given another choice, all have good people there as well. It's usually very senior management who are screwing everything up, though a single idiot can do it for you if you're working directly for them. Either way, the last thing you want to do is leave all the good people with the impression that you're so self-focussed that you're willing to screw the whole outfit just to make a petty point.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
The problem with a lot teenagers and some twenty year olds is their ego. From the post, I can tell that the poster thinks quite highly of his/herself. One could have twenty years of experience and do as well as someone who is a beginner in the field. Years don't define the quality of one's knowledge, nor do paper certifications.
So to say one is qualified for a job merely based on years of experience (how much "experience" one gets out of those years is quite variable), and some multiple choice tests is rather ignorant. The poster gives the impression that he/she is a big-head who thinks he/she is better than those who have their college degree (and don't bloat their knowledge-level), but truly is on the level of someone who just got out of high school and has no understanding of what a decent IT job requires.
First you can't get the job, then some (usually incompetent) manager decides one day they don't like you anymore and you're back looking again.
No second chance. No recourse. No way to pick up the pieces. Credit destroyed (again). Savings gone. Another three-month job on the resume. Next company always hesitant: not sure if you're "reliable" enough. Bills due, past due, late, delinquent... Start over. Again, and again, and again...
Put your degree at the end of the resume. Those years in college don't matter. Only experience matters. Move your experience at these three companies over here, because those don't count either. Oh, and don't list these projects, because that's the wrong platform, and those projects are the wrong language. So, here's your one-page, one-job, no-education resume which is supposed to show you have four years experience. Now, go get that job!
Didn't people have careers at one point? I seem to remember stories long ago of people who worked for years at the same company and didn't walk around in constant fear of being fired for no apparent reason.
Every IT job seems to start a clock the moment you are handed your W-4, and it is only a matter of time before the whining starts and everyone starts updating resumes.
Can't make any progress this way. Companies that whine about not being able to make any money ought to spend a couple of minutes looking at how much it costs to have an 85% turnover rate. Of course, what do they care? As long as they can keep the paychecks coming, they don't have to actually produce anything.
Ever notice how the plant-watering, stuffed-animal-decorated-desk-occupying, ALWAYS recently newlywed (usually female), picture frame surrounded HR types NEVER EVER EVER EVER want for a salary, or a new car, or a decade+ of gainful employment, even though they only spend three of every eight hours AT that desk, and can't tell the difference between there their and they're?
Do the IT people ever get that? Or are we rather making sure we don't leave anything valuable at work because our keycard might not work tomorrow?
I put in seven years learning numerous programming languages/platforms, etc. Four years of web development (server-side, mainly) Four years of Linux. Two years of Perl. Year of C++. Employers could care less. All wasted time. It's never enough. More, more, more.
So...how do they know you're 19? It's not like it's really any of their business. What would they really do if you told them you were, say, 22? Call your mother for verification? There is no law that says that you have to give them your real age (or name, or whatever). It isn't a government job is it? (in which case there *may* be laws). It's really none of their damn business how old you are and AFAIK you are not obligated give this sort of information.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
I'm 23, been doing admin stuff and tech support since I was 17. Sure, i've got 6 years experience, but these elder fellows are right. We haven't been around nearly as much as they have. There's a -wide- variety of places that most of these current net admins have been before there was even such a thing as net admins. They have a lot of experience behind them that we'll never have. I don't expect to be in any type of serious admin position until i'm 27-28.. You really need to hop around different companies and soak in different places and software before you can be a good netadmin, these days.
What's sad here is watching this community itself engaged in rampant discrimination.
I find it really sad how when I post my article now, I have to state my age (25), and how long I consider having experience (15 years), and my justification for it (not all experience is pure work).
I'm currently working as an Information Architect for a company designing mobile applications. Do my experiences with computers as a ten-year-old warez kiddie mean anything? Heck yeah! I grew up with no manuals or anything. Intuitive design was everything!
I was on a computer about 6-8 hours a day during the school year, and probably around 12-14 outside of school. I don't think I've spent as much time on a computer since. Not all of it was playing games or testing out applications, but tweaking systems to run faster, playing with protocols to transfer faster, and so on.
When I graduated high school at 17 (an option NO ONE posting considered so far), I knew more about how DOS and Windows worked than the guy at the PC store. I went to university, played with Solaris and MacOS, and so on.
Nowadays, people don't ask me my age. (Facial hair helps a LOT!) They don't question when I can honsetly says I have 15 years experience with computer systems. And here in Finland, when they do realise that I'm 25, they don't scoff, blink, or otherwise. That's more normal here than not.
But, what's really sad is the bunch of old guys here who question and slander because, well, I guess they're jealous too.
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. - G.B. Shaw
You've got to be very, very good to get away with being precocious and immature. Usually that means you're so bright that you also modify your behaviour accordingly. It becomes more of a problem at the fringe, for those people who are easily impressed by themselves.
a) You're not as good as you think you are (who says your previous employers were worth a damn?)
...
b) At your age, you don't realize that many of the things you think are "stupid reasons" aren't.
c) You could just be an immature brat that they hate working with.
Nothing personal, and I'm not over 30 - but everything isn't some conspiracy based on discrimination. I've worked with enough dipshits of ALL ages
with any superiors because even if you are right you will lose. Getting into a fight with your boss is like showing up with a knife at a gun fight (that's a quote from some famous movie, I don't remember which, flame me). They can always fire on the spot with out cause. Most states are "Employment at will" which means the don't have to give you a reason, and you can bet that if they did it wouldn't be an illegal one. Also in this economy if you piss off the director bad enough you manager will save his own ass and congradulate him on his descision. My advice, work your frickin butt off if you aren't already. Be the goto guy for ass much stuff as you reasonably can be. Talk to the director and ask him what you need to do to make him happy and if he dislikes you, what you did to deserve it. Make ammends as best you can even if director seems completely wrong. Unfortunatley your daughter may be depending on your ass kissing abilities. And with five years experience, you should know that ass kissing is a part of every profession (yes even the CEO has to kiss the stock-holders collective ass).
Forward looking schools, like the one I went to. I was primarily reponsible for a small network (maybe 50 stations) when I was 14 in tenth grade. Yes, I learned Novell inside out then, then went on to bigger things as we expanded the network to include a connection to the Internet just before connecting to the Internet was the cool thing to do. I had hardware experience, software, and network experience as I got to bring it all together, along with a few friends who did the things I couldn't or didn't know how then.
My problem was always that I expected everyone I dealt with to be on my level, super-high IQ and smart. Well, people (in general) are not smart, and one of the best things I ever learned to do was to evaluate people and expect what they were capable of, not what I was capable of, from them. As others have mentioned a big part of the problem can be ego. When you're young (I'm 24 now) and given lots of power or authority it is easy to become a jerk. Step back and listen carefully to everyone, don't speak out of turn, learn how to interact in a professional business-like manner, dress better than you did in high school, and most of all, reign in the ego. Don't be humble to the point of being annoying, but don't let people think for a second that you're a pompus asshole, and be approachable! Pick your fights very carefully, if you have to fight at all. You've already got two strikes against you (age and age) and it's easy to strike out.
My first suggestion is to relax. I dealt with the same thing when I was 19, being only the second statistics-literate person in a Ford plant that was desperate seeking their Q1 quality award (back in 1986). I got precisely zero respect at first from any of the guys there at first, who were all 15 - 40 years my senior. However, once it became obvious that I knew what I was talking about while they didn't, the majority treated me much better while the minority hated my guts. If you're as good as you think you are, then the respect will come. If it doesn't, you might want to re-evaluate how good you really are as opposed to how good you think you are. Those older than you aren't stupid; they may be unfairly skeptical, but they'll come around if you've got the stuff to prove yourself.
This won't sit well with people who compare ties to hangmen's nooses, but you should dress the part.
I wear fancy clothes (dress pants, shirt, collar, tie, polished leather shoes) for about thirty hours a week, and during that time people treat you with more respect. If you're dressing like a slack high school drop out, how do you expect them to treat you? But if you dress like a professional, how would they treat you then?
If you weren't worried with age and acted the part (instead of a child genius) then you'd fit in better.
(BTW, I'm in a similiar situation, but I dress the part.)
At one of my most recent jobs, I had the fortune of working with my best friend. This turned out to be a very important factor in my professional development, because he did *not* want me to get fired. He might have been harsh, he might have been blunt, but he was also *right*. I fought against his complaints about my work attitude tooth and nail with every excuse I had, to the point where I got into a fight with him at work and my boss walked in. Thankfully, my boss at the time was a much better people person than my friend is, and he could lay it all out for me in a way that didn't bruise my ego so badly.
My girlfriend had also had to give this sort of speech to a friend of hers at work at one point in time. Even though she was much more delicate about it than my friend was, she made the poor girl cry at the end of it. Afterwards though, she was much better at her job because she took the advice to heart. The fact of the matter is that many or most of us at that age think that we're doing our very best, that we're working our very hardest, when in fact the problem isn't that we're not working hard enough, but we're not doing it right, even though we think we are. And it's often a very hard lesson to learn, because it means that there's one thing we've always thought to be true that's not.
What was my "one thing?" I had always *known* that working with other people in a team meant that you specialize in one thing, do it well, and never stray from that specialization. Those of you that know as well as I do (now) know that this is utter crap. Teamwork is where everyone does everything they can to accomplish a common goal, and doesn't have to be told what it is they need to do to accomplish it. You don't hear "that's not my job" from team members.
The author of this article may just have such a problem. Or maybe it's a different problem altogether. But the best thing he can do is ask his boss "What's wrong with me" and "what exactly do I need to do to fix it?" The very fact that someone is complaining about it means that that someone *wants* to *fix* it. The cluetrain has arrived. Please take deliveries.
"No problem. I have the capacity to do infinite work so long as you don't mind that my quality approaches zero."-Dilbert
Finding another job is almost impossible with limited experience.
Here is an example. I have a friend of mine who is now 24 with something called aspergers syndrome. ITs basically a mild high functioning form of autism. It does not affect his intellectual skills or his ability to problem solve a computer problem but it definitely effects his social skills and his eye and hand coordination. He was fired because of his disability and not his job performance. My boss knew he couldn't look him in the eye and other co-workers would make fun of him and file complaints to get him fired. This pissed me off!
Anyway what happened was after his brief 3 month experience no one would understandably hire him. After 5 months of unemployment he had to move back in with his parents and work at a Staples for a 4th of the amount of money because he was only 22 and had no experience that a HR person or a PHB would like. Being fired from his only job scared the hell out of any interviewer.
I feel sorry for this guy getting canned for being too young but he is definitely screwed. My friend that I mentioned who now works at staples is finishing his degree and hopeful before he is 30 can re-enter IT. I would advise anyone in his or a similiar situation to do the same. I know this majorly sucks but managers and phb's are extremely picky about past job performance when picking new workers. Also I doubt this kid has more then 5 years experience. If he has more then 2 experience then maybe he can make it another job and not have to leave IT altogether.
Most people who are unjustly fired have years of experience in other jobs with lots of contacts so there asses are covered in case they want another job. You on the other hand do not.
This would make a great case to sue. After all how can you work in IT again? I would bring a tape recorder to work if your not already fired and find a good lawyer.
I hope this helps.
http://saveie6.com/
Often times, taking classes (no degrees or anything, just classes) can act as a substitute for "real world" work experience.
Around here, a couple of classes can knock off nearly 1.5-2 years of required experience.
And by "classes" I mean worthwhile classes like "Data Management Systems" or "Intro to Telecommunications", and not "English 101" (which is still important) or "Racquetball II".
Well, me too. I started building logic circuits when I was 9 using neon bulbs, and then at 10 with DTL and RTL, which was all I could afford. I built my first microcomputer when I was 14 ("built" in the sense of Vector boards and wires and solder and components, not putting a motherboard into a box). At 15 I was writing lessons on PLATO for the Florida functional literacy program. At 16, I wrote a payroll program for a string of hotels. At 17 I wrote my first interpreter in assembly language.
All of this is fine and good and means I was very bright and impressed potential employers, but it would have been ludicrous to consider it the experience of a grizzled veteran. Of course, that was before the unrealistic expectations caused by the dot com fiasco.
The hard part of this or any job is not how to do the technical stuff. I wish it were; life would be a lot easier. Unless you are actually in the armed services, if you're under 22 or so, whether you believe it or not, people have been busting their humps to protect you from the social problems of work, which are the primary thing that "experience" says you can handle. By all means, use your history to impress future employers, but it's a bit early to start claiming discrimination.
You owe me a new keyboard. This one just got coffee spewed all over it. :-)
Last week I turned ten thousand days old. I feel ancient.
You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
The parent post sums up the basic problem with this thread. The young guys think they're exceptional. The older guys know better.
This is not "discrimination", it is simply the way the world is. The younger guys who are complaining will learn this with time. In the meantime, guess who's going to be clearing up the mess.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
For full time employees in large companies, that is usually the case. Exceptions being CCNAs, and other super hot skills. For contractors and consultants, not a chance.
Young people are ignorant. They should not hold positions of authority. Just give it a few years; wait until you aren't so dumb.
Ever notice how job application forms don't have a date of birth field? Last time I checked it was illegal for employers to ask you what your age is. I might be wrong about this, but I really don't think so. Obviously I'm not a lawyer so take anything I say about legal matters with a grain of salt.
To me the best solution to your problem long term is to lie like a rug. It's none of their business how old you are. Tell them you're 23 or 24, or even older. Let them know you're married and have a child. Few 20 year olds outside a trailer park are married, let alone have children. Create and consistently present the facade of someone just a few years older and I suspect that your problems will disappear. Now obvioulsy that won't help you in your current position, but when you move to another job it sure will.
Is this dishonest? Yes, of course it is. But then lying so someone to prevent them from working to hurt you is hardly unethical. Lies that cause harm are the ones to worry about, not lies that avoid harm. How bad would you feel about lying to a Nazi about the location of a Jewish family? If someone is going to be so unethical themselves that they would seek to get rid of you out of jealousy or some other base emotion, then lying to them is the best thing you can do.
You're luckier than blacks and members of other persecuted groups. You can wholly and completely avoid the persecution altogether. The really nice thing is, if someone were to find out how old you are and use that as an excuse to fire you, you'd be able to take them to court and probably win. If they can't even ask how old you are, how are they supposed to justify firing you for finding out you're not as old as they thought you were?
Lee
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.