Zhang Fei Temple Digitally Remastered

gtaylor writes: "The Globe and Mail reports that the Three Gorges Zhang Fei Temple in China will be disassembled before the Three Gorges dam is completed (which will flood the area where the temple stands now), and reassembled somewhere drier. Meanwhile, the Canadian National Research Council has sent over some techs who have scanned the whole complex into super-accurate 3-D models as to be sure of rebuilding the temples precisely as they were."

Comments

three gorges

[RestiffBard]

be nice if they could just scan the whole damn and build that somewhere else.

Re:three gorges

[forgoil]

Hell yes. This whole dam is just one huge stupid egotrip. I am not impressed a bit by this. It's a shame the smart people and good technology is needed to move something which shouldn't need to be moved at all. I would rather see they do something more useful with these good resources.

Re:three gorges

[ergo98]

Uh, so you'd rather they didn't scan it and just pretended that nothing was wrong until the day it's under water? The reality is that China wants to build a dam (it is shitty, but at the same time I suppose it's better than a massive coal electric plant with no emissions controls), so whatever anyone can do to preserve what is going to be destroyed is heroic.

Re:three gorges

[Phosphor3k]

Well, the flooding DOES kill thousands of people every year. And the Dam will generate 1/9th of all the electricity used in China. Thats alot. However, the could build the dam differently so that it didnt effect so many people, and the temples, as was pointed out in the article.

Re:three gorges

[Anonymous Coward]

He's saying that he'd rather they didn't build the dam at all, that way you wouldn't need to move the temple, because it wouldn't be flooded.

Re:three gorges

[nomadic]

It's discouraging to follow this thing being built; not only is it displacing millions of people, destroying priceless cultural artifacts, and costing money that could easily be spent on something better, but it's extremely likely that it will eventually collapse, causing an incredible amount of deaths. China's dam-building record is abysmal. They've had some of the most disastrous dam collapses in history (the collapses of the Banqiao and Shamantan Dams in 1975 are estimated to have caused directly or indirectly over 200,000 deaths), but the government is so obsessed with making China appear powerful and modern to the rest of the world that they refuse to learn from their mistakes and exhibit anything remotely resembling sanity. It's frightening to find a government where having sociopathological impulses helps you achieve political power.

Re:three gorges

[Anonymous Coward]

He is incorrect. The Yangtzee basin is flooded more and more every year, even without the dam. The forests that used to absorb the monsoons are gone and the area and floods dislocate the residents already. This whole dam was created to controll the flooding and create electricity while they were doing it. Perhaps if you people would inform yourselves about China instead of accepting the rheoteric of the Western press you would have known this.

Re:three gorges

[Bishop]

It's frightening to find a government where having sociopathological impulses helps you achieve political power.

I hate federal politics too.

project politics

[Alien54]

I suppose you could call this a momentary lucid act in an ongoing period of questionable policy. There are many folks that feel that the Three Gorges Dam Project is quite insane.

Although they had to do something as far as their river control problem, this might not have been the best solution

this brings up a philosophical point

[perdida]

The Three Gorges Dam sucks whether they can restore this temple or not. Millions of people have to move out of the way of the dam, and the government isn't helping them very much.

Just like the people who cared about the Buddha statues in Afghanistan, and got the U.N. to protest at levels unheard of since the Taliban came in, the int'l community opposes the dam because of the archeological wonders, not as much the people.

Digital aids in solutions to the problems of the Three Gorges Dam are oriented towards the preservation of a temple, rather than helping the people in the way of the dam.

China gives more of a shit about tourism than its billions of people. It executes thousands of them a year to sell their body parts! And this is the country that we have just given permanent normal trade relations, and let into the W.T.O.

Re:this brings up a philosophical point

[oni]

Millions of people have to move out of the way of the dam

oh yeah? 13 million had to move out of the way of the *river* during one of the Yangtze's floods. The dam will control that - so in my opinion it's a good thing.

Re:this brings up a philosophical point

[Jburkholder]

I'm trying to remember the specifics of the huge dam failure that happened many years ago. I was surprised to see it on the top ten human-made disasters of all time show on TLC a couple of months ago. (TLC's search on their site sucks) I had never heard of it (as most of the western world, it seems).

Ah, turned up this page on human rights watch with google. An

excerpt:

China's longstanding restrictions on public access to information, debate and decision-making about large dam-construction projects have had fatal consequences in the past. An example was the catastrophic collapse in August 1975 of two large water-conservancy projects in Henan Province, the Banqiao dam and the Shimantan dam. Hitherto almost entirely unreported beyond the confines of China's top party leadership and elite hydrological circles, this event represented by far the largest known dam disaster in human history. In the resulting floods, famine and health epidemics, fatalities amounted to anywhere between 86,000 (the government's internally-released figure) and 230,000 (an estimate produced by eight senior Chinese critics of the Three Gorges project).

Re:this brings up a philosophical point

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.tobaccofreedom.org/issues/disasters/

The top ten disasters (according to the show) were:

1. Chinese Dam
2. Chrnobyl
3. Exxon Valdez
4. Challenger
5. Bophal
6. Titanic
7. Tenerife Airport
8. Sampoong Store
9. Estonia
10. Hindenburg

Their method for arriving at the order for these disasters is obviously not strictly number of caualties, as Challenger had far fewer than, say, Bophal.

If you went strictly by # of deaths, of course, the real #1 disaster is the cigarette, right?

Re:this brings up a philosophical point

[SubtleNuance]

It executes thousands of them a year to sell their body parts!

Yes, those evil Communists(TM) (R) dont even have the decency to scrawl "call 911" in lipstick on the bathroom mirror so they can save themselves when they wake up in a tub of ice...

Re:this brings up a philosophical point

[leiz]

I was there two summers ago, they put up big digital clocks counting down the time until the dam is built. Having spent several days on the Yangtze River, it's a shame all that beatiful scenary will soon be gone.

Re:this brings up a philosophical point

[hacman]

I think you are confusing a range of issues here.

Before I begin, let me state that I am fundamentally opposed to the Three Gorges project!

Firstly, their human rights record is atrocious, but that has nothing to do with the Three Gorges Project per se, and I don't understand why you mention it in this context (it may also pay to note that the USA executed 85 people in 2000, so its hands are hardly clean (I realise this is far below the scale of China))

Secondly, Large damming projects have often involved moving sections of the population. This is not unique to the Three Gorges Project. in that light, the archaeological treasures (i.e. things not readily moveable) need to have a high priority placed on them (not to the exclusion of the currently living human population). What hasn't been said is what compensation the Chinese government is making to the people it is moving. Without this information, it is hard to say whether they are being unreasonable or not.

thirdly, to say China cares more about tourisim than its billions [sic, its about 1.3 billion] of people is a little odd. Tourism is a revenue generating process (typically FOR the people). Surely by promoting tourism (ideally in a slightly more eco-friendly way than Three Gorges) they are demonstrating that they care for the economic well being of the local people?

Regards

Re:this brings up a philosophical point

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, there is so much similarity between executing murderers and executing people with inconvenient political views....

Re:this brings up a philosophical point

[Anonymous Coward]

>oh yeah? 13 million [worldwatch.org] had to move out of the way of the *river* during
>one of the Yangtze's floods. The dam will control that - so in my opinion it's a good
>thing.

NO! They should not live there in the first place!
And now we seem to be striving to make it even easier
for people to move straight into the path of destruction.

The fact that the river forced 13 million people out of
its way just shows the failure of the human hivemind.
The survivors went back there?

Same problem as California if you ask me.

Units confusion

[Anonymous Coward]

As far as I know Canada is 100% metric, so there's little chance the temple will be measured in meters and rebuilt in feet, or vice versa. Good choice!

Re:Units confusion

[Tazzy531]

Sorry to disappoint you, but the majority of the world uses Metric system. In fact, US and England are the few countries that use Unit system. In addition, most scientific measurements are made in metric. NASA/JPL was the one that messed up when they used unit system by mistake. I think after that fiasco, they banned unit measurements and unit measuring tools from NASA

Re:Units confusion

[DrSpin]

Even in England, everyone uses metric for anything major. Imperial is only used for food and clothing, and then only by the over 50's.

Officially, everything has been metric since 1970 (Over thirty years ago, or those who can't count.)

CU Research Project

[Tazzy531]

My CS professor has been researching the same technology however, his puts the entire laser apparatus on a robotic vehicle that is completely/near-completely autonomous. He recently got a $2 million NSF grant to do the same digitization of Egypts pyramids.

Re:CU Research Project

[Murmer]

Christ, they're not going to move those, are they?

Does the panama canal suck?

[natslovR]

Or what about Suez?

When you alter nature it has negative effects on something... its benefits just need to be weighed against the negatives.

Millions of people may have to move, but it is obviously of some benefit or wouldn't be being built. Like moving people off an island and declaring it deserted so it can be used as a US military base, damning some other river somewhere, or knocking weeks off travel time by building a canal.. it causes big trouble for some people but benefits so many more.

I don't see how this dam can be equated to the Taliban blowing up budhist statues.

Re:Does the panama canal suck?

[nomadic]

When you alter nature it has negative effects on something... its benefits just need to be weighed against the negatives.

The problem isn't just the environmental impact; it's the fact Millions of people may have to move, but it is obviously of some benefit or wouldn't be being built.

You're thinking too rationally. The Communist leaders of China think that China's reputation is more important than the welfare of it's people, and will act accordingly. There are much better ways to control flooding than dams.

Re:Does the panama canal suck?

[MikeBabcock]

I have a feeling that the dam is not being built for China's reputation but rather to supply power or water to people ... silly person.

Re:Does the panama canal suck?

[nomadic]

Well I have more than a feeling; I've read up on the subject, and one of my environmental policy professors had travelled to China to assess it. There are far, far better ways to provide both power, water, and flood control, and they'd be both a lot less environmentally destructive, and a lot safer to
anyone living downstream of the dam.

Re:Does the panama canal suck?

[nomadic]

Thats funny. Name them. Why mention there are far better ways and not name them?

Fine. Strengthening levees, spillways, floodways, reforestation, creating more reservoirs, creating a series of smaller dams, creating the same dam but changing it's design, creating the same dam but not making it so incredibly shoddy (the engineer in charge admits that it's not particularly well-made, but claims at this stage that's not important).

Re:Does the panama canal suck?

[nomadic]

* reforestation - This is one of the most heavily populated areas in the world here, it is not an option to reforest much of it.

One of the causes of the flooding is deforestation; by preventing more loss of vegetation, and growing back what you can, you can increase how much water is absorbed before it enters the river. You have to keep in mind that while China is heavily populated, the actual population density isn't particularly high, and the Chinese government already has committed to reforestation projects, realizing their importance.

levees, spillways, floodways - This will only go so far. I do not think it is feasible to do given how many millions of acres flood each moonson season. How many levees, spillways and floodways can you make?

You don't just make new ones; you improve the ones that are already there. I think you're missing the point; the best way to prevent flooding is not in one huge grandiose project, but to improve flood control through a variety of methods. Again, these are also things that the Chinese government has already planned to do; however, I think they're putting too many eggs in the TGP basket.

* creating a series of smaller dams - A serious of smaller dams, while indeed an alternative solution, is not necessarily better. What matters is how well each solution, a big dam, or several smaller, is implemented, and not choosing say smaller dams over one large one. Each solution has its own advantages and problems, one is not clearly better than the other.

Moral relativism doesn't go far in engineering. Yes, a series of smaller dams would be more effective and less costly. It's a better solution. Especially considering you could more adequately control more of the river (the current location of the dam project is upstream from several tributaries, which will limit how effective it can be), they'd be easier and cheaper to make, and a catastrophic failure of one won't threaten as many people as if (or when) the TGD failed.

Again, I think you're missing the point; I'm not saying the TGP dam couldn't help, I'm just saying that the way it's been implemented pretty much dooms it to failure. They have already spent billions of dollars (much of it siphoned off by corrupt officials), and plan on spending tens of billions more. This, in a country that is in a perpetual cash shortage. There's a reason the World Bank refuses to offer any funding, and the US Export-Import bank won't guarantee loans to US companies investing in the project. The TGP is just a horrible idea, executed in one of the worst ways possible, that will most likely fail in its mission, and cost thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of lives.

Re:Does the panama canal suck?

[nomadic]

Not at all; the dam only has political support. In China the principal opponents (other than people being displaced by the project) are the scientists and hydrological engineers. The only supporters of the dam outside of the government are foreign investment companies who think they can make money on this. The central figure in the anti-dam movement is Dai Qing, who is both a journalist and an engineer.

Re:what the... nice story but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, learn how to read numbnuts.

It is his most fervent wish to be on a tiny island in the middle of the Yangtze River in late February or early March.

What I really want to know

[Sumocide]

Will they release a Quake III level based on the scan data?

Re:What I really want to know

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope not. UT CTF all the way :-)

Re:What I really want to know

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope John Carmack reads the parent, so he can know just how much his game sucks. Unreal Tournament really showed up his Quake III just as Unreal II will blow out the New Doom. You can not hang with the Epic Megagames.

Re:What I really want to know

[ergo98]

Unreal Tournament was a more enjoyable game because it had better gameplay, but technically it was quite inferior to Quake 3 (indeed it is more in competition with Quake 2). Carmack is a technology man, and the technology that he creates does tend to be the best.

Re:What I really want to know

[arkanes]

There's a 90% architecturally accurate digital tour of Notre Dame Cathedral thats done using the Unreal engine. It's pretty cool. I'd love it if they released the map :P

Who Zhang Fei Was

[robbyjo]

If you want to know who Zhang Fei was in detail, click here for the story of the Three Kingdoms.

Re:Who Zhang Fei Was

[alphaseven]

If you just want a brief description and stats from the Romance of the Three Kingdoms video game, you could go here: Zhang Fei.

More information on the NRC scanning.

[mdemeny]

The National Research Council (NRC) spun off a few companies based upon pretty much the same technology (Arius 3D, Hymark, etc.)

If you're looking for actual 3D models to view (in VRML) made using this (or similar) technology visit: The AMUSE Project. It contains 61 3D digital representations of various aboriginal artifacts. Very cool stuff.

The actual scanning resolution is much higher than what you see on the web, of course. The native resolution is incredible.

(Now assuming a certain friend of mine sees this, you'll get a better explanation since he actually worked for one of those companies...)

Abu Simbel

[Anonymous Coward]

They did the same thing some 40 years ago in Egypt, at the temple of Abu Simbel built by Ramses the Great. When the Aswan High Dam was about to be built, engineers realized the temple would be buried under all of the water flow. So, it was moved to a higher location that would be safer. Of course, they did that without the use of supercomputers and 3D modelling, so it should be really interesting to see how China's project turns out. To see Abu Simbel is amazing. It was carved directly into the rock. They had to cut it out, divide it into pieces, move it, and put it all back together without Linux, Irix, or even some of the advanced heavy machinery we have today.

Re:Abu Simbel

[Krelnik]

> They did the same thing some 40 years ago in Egypt, at the temple of Abu Simbel built
> by Ramses the Great. When the Aswan High Dam was about to be built, engineers realized
> the temple would be buried under all of the water flow. So, it was moved to a higher
> location that would be safer. Of course, they did that without the use of
> supercomputers and 3D modelling

I was gonna mention that but you beat me to it. I remember being fascinated as a kid reading the National Geographic article where they showed the whole project in detail. Each block was carefully sliced out of the mountain and numbered for reassembly.

Here's a good link with lots of pictures of Abu Simbel.

Re:Abu Simbel

[mjolnir_]

The truly interesting use of this kind of scan would be not just to restore, but to replicate historically and archaeologically interesting sites; you have a perfect 3D model, the original is safe, build a few replicas and ship them off.

The Temple of Dendur is located in the Metropolitan Museum of Art here in NYC; it was a gift from Egypt to the USA for their assistance in building the Aswan dam and handling the many sites that would have been lost to the waters. Think of the Elgin marbles in London, and the long fight between the UK and Greece over where those marbles should live; why should other important pieces or structures be denied to the countries that originally produced them?

Build me a convincing replica, and then I won't have to deal with the Chinese air pollution anyway.

I know how you feel..

[mindstrm]

but having been around, Canada still is the best place on earth. You have nothing to whine about.

Canada is not *drowning* in debt. We are very well off. We could settle debt very quickly, just by dipping into our *vast* natural resources.

Why don't we? Because we can weather it out.. we don't because we can always do it later.

I think your negative outlook on how 'bad' Canada is would change quickly if you did a wee bit of traveling.
Believe me, if you didn't pay the taxes you pay, you'd be living 100 years in the past. Canada does not have the population base to support low taxation and still maintain the status quo.
So.. if you are willing to give up medical, the social safety net, good roads, relatively honest police, and our good name the world over, keep pushing for lower taxes and less immigration.

Re:I know how you feel..

[Anonymous Coward]

Canada has workers controlling the means of production? Why did I not get this memo? I am moving to Canada!

internet version

[mliu]

Sure would be nice if that Canadian National Research Council could make a copy of whatever format they're storing their 3D digital copy of into something that I could browse on my computer over the Internet. Off hand, I don't know about this domain enough to suggest anything, but maybe VRML or even a Quake 3 map would work?

I dunno, I sure don't have the time or means right now to be making a trip to the original Zhang Fei Temple in China, but it sure would neat to be able to do it virtually and walk around in the temple over the Internet on my computer.........plus this way I'd be able to see the temple in its original location like it was built, instead of moved to wherever is convenient after its reconstruction...

(heh, and if they released a Quake 3 map or something like that, that precisely modeled and displayed the original temple, it sure would be hilarious if they served it up too, even though I can't see that actually happening. You'd have the tourists walking around to look at the temple, when campers would jump out with whatever the default weapon is in Quake 3 and start hacking away at them)

(or how about this. They just open sourced Quake 2 right? Maybe that would make it a better medium to be releasing this on than Quake 3, seeing as it's free and all)

Re:internet version

[topham]

This would be the same government which charges outrageous rates for map data.
I doubt they will release any of this.

Re:internet version

[BandwidthHog]

If only the engine could support small detail. I've been doing some walk-throughs with the Quake engine, but it's limited to a 1" resolution, and don't even get me started on the lack of curves. A lot can be faked with texturing, but it still gets pretty tough to represent fine grained detail.

Well, maybe when Quake 6 comes out...

Re:real philosophical point

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree your first three paragraphs, which states
exactly the current situation. The forth one
sucks the big time, if you are so against that
country, why not call your President to name
them as terrism supporting country and nuke them?
You have the reasons, right?

OOps, maybe you have been enjoying the cheap
goods
made in the sweat shops and don't want them to disappear?
Stop from buying their goods if you really want to help, smarties.

Their government sucks, their human rights record
sucks, but you enjoy from ripping off them.

They should put the 3D Info online

[A Commentor]

Imagine if they had all this available online, and anyone could explore the ancient cities/structures without all the traveling and expense. It would be incredible if someone could see ancient Eygptian, Maya, Inca, Greek, etc... all though some sites on the internet...

So it would show the current conditions of the sites, and if some archeologist(sp?) could create models of what they think it looked like in ancient times. Just like some of the books that have the clear pages that show original and current conditions of the sites.

Re:They should put the 3D Info online

[Anonymous Coward]

This gotta modded up? I know this is slashdot but...

"Imagine if they had all this available online, and anyone could explore the ancient cities/structures without all the traveling and expense."

I hate to break this to you, but seeing a scaled down 3d Computer model of the Acroplis and Parthenon is nothing like going to Greece and seeing the thing in real life for yourself. On the computer you get no sense of scale, like when you go there in a person and see it for yourself. This will not save people money travelling. It just does not compare to see a Mayan temple on a 2d computer screen pretending to be 3d dimensional and seeing it in real life.

Re:real philosophical point

[oni]

The forth one sucks the big time

I agree, but did you do any better? Compare his inflammatory statement:

executes thousands of them a year to sell their body parts!

with yours:

name them as terrism supporting country and nuke them

It sounds to me like both of you have difficulty expressing an opinion intelligently.

Is there a sniper's nest?

[Ringthane]

How long before someone ports the 3D maps to Unreal Tournament or Quake 3 Arena?

Are the monks going to be remastered also?

[DrD8m]

They must be also remastered, don't they?

Wish I had one of these scanners

[3ryon]

Meanwhile, the Canadian National Research Council has sent over some techs who have scanned the whole complex into super-accurate 3-D models as to be sure of rebuilding the temples precisely as they were.

Quake mod coming soon.

Whoah, use it for games?

[Beowulf_Boy]

Wouldn't it be cool to run around with a rail gun in a Zhen temple?
I bet they could make some cool game levels from it. How big is it, if its big enough you could even make a whole game out of it: "Mystery of the Zheng Fei Temple"

Re:real philosophical point

[Anonymous Coward]

Perdida is a well known troll. His first three paragraphs are reasonable but in true troll fashion, at the end he makes no pretence to the truth and succeds in eliciting a response.

Re:Stupid F*%$ing Canadian Government

[ergo98]

In the past couple of years the general tax rate of Canada has been declining and is less than most European countries. Indeed in some lower tax areas of Canada the total tax load is lower than some higher tax areas of the US.

3D art scanning

[Animats]

Marc Levoy's group at Stanford has been making 3D scans of artwork since 1992. They've now done Michaelangelo's David sculpture, several other major Italian statutes, and some famous buildings.

now all we need..

[NotAnotherReboot]

All we need now is to have this turned into a quake 3 map (or similar first person shooter) and have a good 'ol deathmatch game.

No, just a Zhang Fei Temple...

[iabervon]

Since they know exactly how this temple is shaped and how to build it, I wonder if someone will start putting up exact duplicates in other places. They could even have some materials from the original (e.g., while moving the original, replace some old parts with new copies, and use the old parts in a different building).

It would be even more interesting to build a replica of the temple in the temple's original location with new materials, and leave it for future archeologists to find.

Re:No, just a Zhang Fei Temple...

[haruharaharu]

It would be even more interesting to build a replica of the temple in the temple's original location with new materials, and leave it for future archeologists to find.

I can see it now: "How the hell did the ancient Chinese create plastic composites without the aid of electricity?" or "Why would somebody build a temple in the river?"

You are *so* on crack.

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, no you're not, it's just a matter of taste. ^_^ Having played both, I will say that Unreal is da BOMB as far as gameplay is concerned but visually it's merely good. I think of it as Quake 2 1/2 in that regard. QIII on the other hand has excellent gameplay and outstanding, IL&M-level eye candy. And when you really trick it out with mods and such--full-on pimp-tastic!! Still I am waiting on the Unreal 2 come 2002; that shit will be going on my hard drive right next to Q3A, Alice and Wolfenstein. Aww yeah. HAPPY NEW YEARS Y'ALL!!

Re:You are *so* on crack.

[Stone Rhino]

no.. halflife would be quake II.5, UT has *MUCH* better graphics than quake II. Frankly, I'm busy enough fragging that it doesn't matter that "ooh..it can render curved surfaces." the gameplay in UT is too good for that.

Re:Stupid F*%$ing Canadian Government

[Anonymous Coward]

unfortunately it sucks when you are making more than $30K Canadian (~20K U.S.) - average income of Canadian... pretty sad indeed.

That's why 90% of the people I knew in Grad school are in the states right now. If now for the recent down turn, and other stupid DMCA type of laws, I would have in the states in a blink of an eye.

Moving a landmark

[KILNA]

Its been done before (without the level of detail of this endeavor)... Did you know that the London Bridge is now located in Arizona?

Re:Moving a landmark

[DrSpin]

Does that leave enough space in London for one slightly used temple?

Or maybe more than one replica could be made - lets all have our own temple!

Re:Stupid F*%$ing Canadian Government

[Anonymous Coward]

That's completely and 100% right, and it's the whole idea behind "borders" that most countries seem to have. People born here ARE Canadians, whereas people who want to come here have to earn that right. If you don't like it then please stay away.

It's funny how economic migrants feel that they're so just in diminishing the born rights of people of North America (because they want to come here to exploit the economy), but when it comes to their own land their fervent. Fuck you.

if you don't mind (ot)

[Lord Omlette]

I'm curious: how do you feel about the wacky conspiracy theorists who claim the FTAA will erode Canadia's excellent health care system? On the one hand I wouldn't mind moving north, on the other hand, it seems like you're all on the verge of getting majorly shafted by your 'friends' south of your border.

An over 2000 year old temple??

[cylcyl]

This is interesting, as Zhang Fei was born ~170 AD, it is interesting how a temple in his honor is more than 2000 years old?

Re:An over 2000 year old temple??

[DrSpin]

Geez, Havn't you people heard of relativity?

Ancient Buddhist monuments are always older than ancient Christian monuments - its a law of nature.

All your temple are belong to us.

Re:Whoah, use it for games? - Nope, doesn't work.

[Anonymous Coward]

I've put thousands of hours into making game levels for the Quake and Unreal engines doing contract work and as a hobby. I've modelled a number of real places such as my house, office buildings, areas of the local city zoo, museums, art galleries, etc etc thinking (hoping) that they'd make cool deathmatch arenas. They all suck. It seems like a good idea, but I have yet to see it pan out.

Even the very worst areas that are designed with gameplay in mind wind up being better than the very best real life areas. A possible exception to this might be if one modelled an indoor paintball arena, but even then it is unlikely that it'd compare favorably with a mediocre deathmatch level.

Now, that's not to say that there are probably some fantastic artistic elements to an ancient Chinese temple that would look great in a 3D engine, but the bottom line is that places that weren't designed for intense deathmatching just don't seem to work too well for intense deathmatching.

Re:Stupid F*%$ing Canadian Government

[Anonymous Coward]

Chinese immigrants had no part in, can have any effect on the rights of these same people to settle where they please, to have decent healthcare and honest police, and to live in a country with a democratic government.

How about affecting change in their own country? Ah the number of strangely proud immigrants who will gloat on about the successes of their culture and homeland (despite strangely getting on a boat and coming HERE...I would guess that migration going the other way is rather limited), when their cultural country is a massive sack of shit country. The freedoms and opportunities in North America were created by North Americans, and don't begrudge us feeling protective when so many others who can't manage the same suddenly feel it's their right.

rebuild it at the WTC implosion site

[Anonymous Coward]

Zhang Fei Temple rebuilt at WTC implosion site

The Virtual vs. The Real...

[cr0sh]

While I have to agree with you that there is nothing like seeing artifacts in context with their "natural" surroundings (that is, in their original place and formation), I have to disagree somewhat with a computer not being able to provide a sense of scale.

The only reason for this would be because we, the users (ok, most of us, but not all) have become used to what are essentially 3D walkthroughs presented on a 2D computer screen, but in such a way as the scale is wrong, the details wrong, as well as one other important factor:

There is no immersion...

Now, for a game, this isn't a big issue. I would even argue that the slight bit of immersion that some players get when the dim the lights down and focus on the game, that it doesn't matter if size, etc are skewed - because it is a game, and hence, fantasy. IE - the players don't care or notice.

But we have the technology TODAY to create a reasonable, to-scale rendering and display of any artifact desirable to be viewed - not only can we view it from the "human-standpoint", but from an ant's, to a giant's! We can view it, fully immersed, as if we were "there". It could be made richly detailed (not perfect, but damn good - even on a PC today).

At the high end, we have CAVEs - at the "lower-end", we have HMDs (though one could easily argue that these could be high end as well - some models, indeed). Both these technologies, coupled with 3D tracking technologies and appropriate 3D sound systems - can achieve a super-high degree of immersion - placing the user "on-site", with the graphics scaled to whatever scale needed.

With today's machines, there should be little lag to mar the performance, and LCDs and miniature CRTs are of sufficiently high-resolution to permit large FOVs in current HMDs.

I am constantly amazed by the ohhs and ahhs over various graphics in 3D games - the speed, the number of FPS, etc - but no one, absolutely no one (outside of the lucky researchers who have CAVEs at their disposal, of course) - seems to want to make the leap of using these systems, these engines, in full immersive environments! It seems ludicrous, at best - tons of gamers willing to let a world slide by them on a window looking in, rather than buying or building HMDs to step into the worlds they play in.

What is holding everyone back? Cost is NOT THE ISSUE ANYMORE...

Ok, AC - that was a little over the top, and NOT aimed at you - your point is completely valid, up to a certain limit (that of your viewpoint of everybody using what amounts to "desktop-VR" systems)...