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ACLU Examines Face-Recognition System

nate_drake and others wrote in about an ACLU report on face-recognition (PDF) (see also their press release and an MSNBC article). We've posted several previous stories about the Tampa police using face-recognition systems at the Super Bowl and on the streets of Ybor City.

165 comments

  1. ok... by jeffy124 · · Score: 2

    ... so the police abandoned it after not catching anyone with it.

    all this means is the companies developing this stuff will have to improve their face-matching algorithm and then we'll all be back at square one.

    given the demand for this stuff a la Sept 11, i dont think the companies will have a problem with motivation

    --
    The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
    1. Re:ok... by bourne · · Score: 5, Insightful

      all this means is the companies developing this stuff will have to improve their face-matching algorithm and then we'll all be back at square one.

      It's worse than that:

      • There's no evidence that the face-matching algorithm is the problem. It is for false positives, but the lack of true positives is just as likely to be a lack of... positives.
      • If so, it isn't the facial recgnition that needs work - it's the facial database! We'll have to start requiring facial shots for all incoming student visa holders.
      • Heck, make that all visa holders.
      • Frankly, everybody belongs in the database but me and thee... and I'm not so sure about thee.

      How long until these companies start lobbying the gov't for mandatory inclusion of, say, license photos in the pool of database data so that people can be picked up as soon as they do something?

    2. Re:ok... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      all this means is the companies developing this stuff will have to improve their face-matching algorithm

      You make it sound like all it is going to take is for some hacker to sit down one weekend and fix a few bugs in the system. Nothing could be further from the truth. Scientists have been researching AI vision and pattern recognition for at least 40 years now and they are still nowhere near an effective solution.

      and then we'll all be back at square one

      We were never at square one: it was largely a scam by companies trying to make a buck off of gullible government agencies with too much taxpayer money to spend.

      Perhaps some day an effective computer facial recognition system will exist. I would guess it will come some time after a cure for cancer is discovered.

    3. Re:ok... by jeffy124 · · Score: 2

      the idea of my post was to show that the problem wont go away anytime soon.

      I do agree, however, that the photo db is part of the problem. The system probably demands a very high-res pic in order to work properly. Most store/bank security cameras arent high-res enough to be useful for Face-It.

      Building the db striaght from a photo db of licensed drivers, visas, etc wont happen, as even politicians are smart enough to realize that putting everybody in that db would create too many false-positives than true-positives.

      OTOH, if someone is picked up by police w/o ID with them, that's where something like that would be helpful. But then again, such instances are rare, so justifying the costs of doing so would be difficult.

      --
      The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
    4. Re:ok... by well_jung · · Score: 2, Funny
      How long until these companies start lobbying the gov't for mandatory inclusion of, say, license photos in the pool of database data so that people can be picked up as soon as they do something?

      Umm... That'd be great. I never look as bad as I do on my DL. I'm not even sure it's me.

      --
      Carl G. Jung
      --
      "With one breath, with one flow, You will know Synchronicity" -La Policia
    5. Re:ok... by dragons_flight · · Score: 2

      Yeah, someday they will figure it out, better than they have.

      Right now the best facial identifiers we have are people. Think about how many people you know and can identify by their face. Even people who's names you've forgetten but still recognize on sight. (The problems of mug shots and line-ups not withstanding) under good conditions human beings only very rarely make false positives indicating that a stranger is someone they actually know.

      We have evolved a specific part of our brains specialized for identifying human faces, and I see no fundemental reason that computers couldn't someday obtain the same level of skill. Problem being that the computer will be infinitely better at remembering names and other personal details which we forget, which leads to a whole lot of problems.

    6. Re:ok... by markmoss · · Score: 2

      it isn't the facial recgnition that needs work - it's the facial database! If you are trying to ID foreign terrorists, that's true, but pictures of the visa holders won't help much. If you've got one grainy picture of a guy in turban and beard, with his face half turned away, no ID system is going to tell you that the cleanshaven guy in western clothes waiting in the immigration line is the same guy.

      But in Tampa apparently they were after ordinary criminals. Most of these have been arrested and mug-shots taken multiple times. If that doesn't give them good enough pictures to work with, there's something seriously wrong in the mug shots, face-matching software, or both. I suspect that it's really the false-positives problem; the cops got tired of running over to look at the latest "bingo" when the pictures don't look at all alike to humans, and missed the few times when it really was the same guy.

  2. I can't tell who I'm looking at . . . . by actappan · · Score: 3, Interesting

    So really, how well can this work? Half the porple I know look completely diferent from day to day anyway . . .

    But take this for an example:

    Soon after Sept 11th one of my colegues flew east on a buisness assignment. He was concerned because, as he said "Did I forget to mention, I look like one of those terrorists?"

    He did, a little. Darker complextion, goatee, curlly hair, glasses. He looked more than a little like one of the suspects.

    He's sinced shaved his goatee, so he no longer looks like that . . . but would this system have been abel to diferentiate?

    I also seem to remeber that one of the guys they arested and incarcerated in Tampa turned out to be the wrong guy . . . .

    --
    \Drew National Data Director, John Edwards for President
    1. Re:I can't tell who I'm looking at . . . . by jeffy124 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      He's sinced shaved his goatee, so he no longer looks like that . . . but would this system have been abel to diferentiate?

      given what some people said in the MSNBC article, your friend would be fine

      glasses, mustache, beards, longer hair, lighting, even turning 15 degrees were enough to foil the system.

      --
      The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
    2. Re:I can't tell who I'm looking at . . . . by SekretAsianMan · · Score: 1

      Actually, these types of software focus on portions of the face that can not be changed easily, such as the distance between the eyes and other facial features, cheek bone structure, etc... Casinos use this technology all the time to identify known cheaters and card counters.

    3. Re:I can't tell who I'm looking at . . . . by Partisan01 · · Score: 1

      I saw a TV show about this on PBS a while back, it was talking about how the technology works in Britian. I guess the cameras do all the recognition by the distance between the eyes, and a couple other places on the face. They had an example of a person walking in front of the camera with all sorts of things to try and mask their looks, the only one that works was when the guy wore a hat and sun glasses and looked at the ground. Nate Tobik

      --
      ahh, the egg in the basket..
    4. Re:I can't tell who I'm looking at . . . . by jeffy124 · · Score: 1

      was that the same show where someone realized that a camera was able to peer into his bedroom, so he wore an alien suit one night in public to attract attention to it?

      --
      The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
  3. Lie detectors. by ImaLamer · · Score: 3, Interesting

    After they take these digenerate pieces of sh*t down they need to go after the 'lie detectors'.

    Soon we will have a camera on the market which is *AS* reliable as a polygraph test. 25% of the time they are wrong.

    All of these things are a Bad Thing. These cameras will be used next to track you at the game [like the Bears? get calls at dinner about season ticket prices], at the bar [you like to go to bar!], at the strip club [the cops watch you now because they know you're a perv!]...

    Just wait till this stuff goes all private!

    Reminds me of Demolition Man

  4. It's obviously not working. by PowerTroll+5000 · · Score: 0, Informative

    From the pressrelease:

    . And in response to the ACLU's queries about the small number of system logs, the department has acknowledged that the software -- originally deployed last June, 2001 -- has not been actively used since August.

    It goes on to later mention "redistricting" as a reason for it not being used. What does changing police distrcits have to do wit hthis technology, anyway? Does that mean they stopped using patrol cars too? And police dogs?

    The real reason: It just didn't work. At least not well enough to justify all the problems associated with its use.

    --

    I'm not afraid of falling, it's the sudden stop at the end that frightens me.

  5. DMCA.... by MosesJones · · Score: 1, Funny


    Hang on, thats my face they are capturing, imaging, processing and then storing. Clearly I own broadcast rights to my own face and all of its characteristics.

    If they match my face then they've reverse engineered my face into another format to circumvent its current storage mechanism.

    Totally silly application of DMCA... but then again its a pretty silly bill.

    --
    An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
  6. salient points by nomadic · · Score: 4, Informative
    1. The system has never correctly identified a single face in its database of suspects, let alone resulted in any arrests.
    2. The system made many false positives, including such errors as confusing what were to a human easily identifiable male and female images.
    3. The photographic database contains a broader selection of the population than just criminals wanted by the police, including such people as those who might have "valuable intelligence" for the police, or who have criminal records.
    I wonder why they didn't mention that man who was a demo face for the system, and was subsequently misidentified then questioned as a felon. Guess it didn't make the logs.
    1. Re:salient points by RobertAG · · Score: 2

      It would seem that there is no value in using or abusing a system that doesn't work. The consequences of a false positive are great: Lawsuit, criminal charges (against police).

      As for straight surveillence, the fact that abuses can and are documented shows that the system CAN be monitored and the watchers CAN be watched.

      Good auditing practices conducted by 3rd parties WILL keep the system (fairly) honest.

    2. Re:salient points by brad3378 · · Score: 1

      &gt I wonder why they didn't mention that man who was a demo face for the system, and was subsequently misidentified then questioned as a felon.

      No Problem...
      Just change the Camera Lens and ask the guy.
      ;-)

      --

    3. Re:salient points by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those first two points don't really sound like issues related to civil liberties. Rather, they're issues for anyone who doesn't like their government spending tax money on useless boondoggles. Of course, since taxes themselves are civil liberties issue, I guess it works out to be ACLU-related after all.

    4. Re:salient points by AzrealAO · · Score: 1

      Except that the man who was a Demo Face was mis-identified by a Human, who thought he looked like her dead-beat ex-husband. She contacted the Police, who checked up on him and determined his actual identity. It had nothing whatsoever to do with the actual system. The Face Recognition Software did not return a False Positive, another Human did.

    5. Re:salient points by nomadic · · Score: 1

      Well the problem the ACLU had with it wasn't technical, but rather how invasive it was, which that event proved...

    6. Re:salient points by Chris+Burke · · Score: 2

      Getting picked up by the cops as you're leaving a building when you've done nothing illegal I think would qualify as a civil liberties issue. Sure, they'll figure out that you're the wrong person, but at what point?

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    7. Re:salient points by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and the sad thing is that this system is still in use today, because of that I will no longer go to Ybor.. Which used to be a great place to go. I urge more people to look at http://wsd.gnutec.com/ and support World Subjectrights day which tries to make the everyday un-eduacated American of the amount of government intrusion in their daily lives.

  7. Hmm by peterdaly · · Score: 2

    I should try to trademark my face and demand royalties...

    -Pete

    1. Re:Hmm by sphealey · · Score: 2
      I should try to trademark my face and demand royalties...
      Hmmm - that would be interesting, although probably legally futile. I imagine the thing to do would be to take several pictures of your face from different angles, copyright and watermark them, and publish them with a statement that use of these or similar images of your face without your express permission is prohibited. One question would be: where would you publish the images? On a web site might not be sufficient.

      That protection probably only applies to those specific images, though, and not others, including any taken in public but certainly any taken while in police custody.

      Still, it would be funny to see the look on the face recognition vendor's, well, face, when you hit him with copyright and DMCA violation lawsuits.

      sPh

    2. Re:Hmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the copyright belongs to the person taking the photograph, not the subject of the photograph.

      It wouldn't be funny when the judge dismisses the suit with prejudice.

  8. Hurt the ones you love by fleener · · Score: 2

    It's like every other anti-anti device. Copy protection on software most hurts the legitimate users. Facial recognition invades the privacy of upstanding citizens more than any perceived benefit to crime fighting. It is casting the widest possible net while knowing full well that criminals are aware of you and will subvert your attempts to control them.

    1. Re:Hurt the ones you love by goldspider · · Score: 1
      Consider this though. Are we guaranteed privacy when we are on public property?

      I am a true believer in the right to privacy when we are on our own property, but when we are on someone else's property, private or public (because public property is technically owned by a government), the rights of the property owner should come before those of the visitor.

      --
      "Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
    2. Re:Hurt the ones you love by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're an Idiot. It doesn't Invade anyones privacy. You are in a public place where the well being of other lives are at hand. You are in public. There is no privacy in public place. The only privacy alloted in public is from social courtesy. Which won't hold up in court. Your Face won't be recognized unless you have a record. They don't store images they gather unless of course a match was made. Tell me how there is a privacy violation.

    3. Re:Hurt the ones you love by arkanes · · Score: 2

      (because public property is technically owned by a government)

      A common misconception, and untrue (granted, it's true enough in a practical sense). The government administers public lands, and holds them in trust for the public. Always remember, the goverment is YOUR servant, not the other way around. Public land is exactly that, public. You've heard of the Boston Commons? So called because it's help in common by the residents of Boston.

    4. Re:Hurt the ones you love by fleener · · Score: 2

      The legacy viewpoint is that when we are in public we do not have a reasonable expectation of privacy. However, that legal viewpoint was created before video cameras became standard in every business and street corner, before consumer-grade spy cameras and recording devices, and even before handheld video cameras.

      Legal rulings change. Our privacy is worth a rethinking of the situation.

    5. Re:Hurt the ones you love by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Get a brain so you can think educated thoughts.

      Get some courage so you post your thoughts under your own name.

      Get a heart so you don't come off like a complete asshole.

    6. Re:Hurt the ones you love by God+Takeru · · Score: 1

      The ones they love! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! That's a good one. If we're the ones they love, I'd hate to see how they treat the ones they hate.

      --
      "Anonymous cowards are just K-whores afraid of their accounts being modded down." - Bob the O (me)
    7. Re:Hurt the ones you love by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude, you don't know squat about face recognition technology. YOUR FACE WILL BE RECOGNIZED EVEN IF YOU DO NOT HAVE A CRIMINAL RECORD. It's called a FALSE POSITIVE. If you read the article you would know these are rampant. Stop talking out your ass.

    8. Re:Hurt the ones you love by a+random+streaker · · Score: 1

      Exactly. A future world where face recognition systems, pheromone sniffers, insta-DNA devices analyzing your cast off skin cells, voice recognition systems looking for your voice, or analyzing your words...

      ...beep beep beep, whirrr, click! You have violated municipal regulation 4667 against profanity in public. Please pay this $200.00 fine.

      ...you were observed lying in a brothel bed with spurs on your boots, violating Nevada statute 37 of the year 1886. Please pay this $200.00 fine.

      ...your dog p000ped in the street and you did not scoop up the p000p within 3 minutes...

      ...you haven't paid this traffic ticket...

      So many laws, and with robotic, machine efficiency to detect and catch the perps.

      So, to paraphrase a famous statement, "By God, I wish these laws could be enforced by steam!" Who is more likely to have said that? A founding father, or Hitler and Stalin?

      --
      "All representatives are busy. The estimated hold time is one..hundred..sixty..four..minutes." Detroit Edison, 02/01/02
  9. Cameras are often useless by adamy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I used to park my bike in the garage beneath my work. The bike rack was about 3 meters from the attendent, and covered by a video camera. I had a cheap lock, but Ithought I was safe.

    One day, I came to the rack to find my lock cut and my bike stolen. The attendant refused to talk to the police. But that's OK, I had the perpertrator on camera.

    After getting the tape from the building security people, I took it to a camera shop. We sped through it to find the point where, sure enough,m you could see a guy walk up, try on my bike helmut, and ride off with the bike. Due to position, you could not see him cut the lock.

    I say him because I am pretty sure that it was a male. That was all I could tell from the poor quality of the tape. I could not tell skin color, clothes, hair color, or enough facial features to recognize.

    I don't think the best AI added to this image would have been able to do anything as far a facial recognition.

    I wouldn't want to be the attenandt working that booth. After they find his mangled corpse (ala Fargo) the police will tell his widow, "Sorry Ma'am, all we can say for certain is that they were in some sort of automiblie. We think a sedan, but we don't know for sure."

    Facial recognition is going to be even harder than this. As a programmer, you have two choices , go with an algorithm or try to use a neural network.

    Most of the weaknesses in the algorthim approach are what the ACLU document was complaining about.

    A neural network may work if you are looking for a specific person. The problem is that to identify two things as being different, they need to be as orthoganl as possible. To separate the sea of faces into two groups those we are loking for , and those we aren't based on a series of images is going to be nigh unto imposible. Certainly not with the amout of computing power per camera that they would put into it.

    --
    Open Source Identity Management: FreeIPA.org
    1. Re: Cameras are often useless by Animats · · Score: 2
      Video resolution is too low for identifying individuals with an area surveillance system. But that's changing. Megapixel cameras and higher are becoming cheap. The frame rate can be cut way down, and surveillance video can usually be heavily compressed from frame to frame without loss of detail, because so little is usually happening.

      A new generation of surveillance cams is starting to appear. There's the X10 junk at the low end, and megapixel camera / DVD-RW combos at the high end. Another year or two, and the midrange stuff will be replacing analog video.

      Big Brother's vision is about to improve substantially.

  10. Hmmm... I don't see the problem here by DG · · Score: 5, Insightful

    As I understood it, the issue with facial recognition was the possibility of false positives; ie, I'm just trying to watch the SuperBowl. the FR system tags me as a known terrorist (incorrectly :) and the next thing I know I'm being dragged off to the can for some serious interregation (and not only unjustly tramatized, but I miss the game too)

    But from the ACLU's press release, there was always a human step in the process, where a real live human being would examine each purported match before anybody got dragged off anywhere.

    As such, all the face recognition software is is a _filter_, cutting down on the number of people a human agent must examine. Where's the problem?

    After all, law enforcement officers have placed themselves in public places, looking for people they knew, for probably as long as there have been law enforcement officers.

    A friend of mine was a sergent in the British Army, and he did a few tours in Northern Ireland. Part of his training was memorizing the faces of a large number of known IRA "players" (and apparently the IRA did the same thing with British soldiers' faces)

    How is this any different?

    I guess I don't understand the ACLU's beef here.

    DG

    --
    Want to learn about race cars? Read my Book
    1. Re:Hmmm... I don't see the problem here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      After all, law enforcement officers have placed themselves in public places, looking for people they knew, for probably as long as there have been law enforcement officers.

      Where? That sounds like a police state to me.

      A friend of mine was a sergent in the British Army, and he did a few tours in Northern Ireland. Part of his training was memorizing the faces of a large number of known IRA "players" (and apparently the IRA did the same thing with British soldiers' faces)

      Ah, I see. Frankly, I don't think Northern Ireland is a particularly good model for the kind of society I want to live in.

    2. Re:Hmmm... I don't see the problem here by jeffy124 · · Score: 2

      i think it's good that /. has some people here that realize the human element that would verify possible matches made by the system before dragging the person in for questioning.

      there are other ways this system may cause ease for people.

      it has to be worth the officer's time to go get the guy if it is indeed a match. someone wanted for petty theft would be better off than someone wanted for first degree murder.

      it also depends on what else is currently happening on the cop's beat. If there's a hostage situation around the corner, the cop will have to wait another day to catch the guy wanted for murder 1.

      i had a rather long and drawn out discussion with someone who just couldnt be conviced of this concept the last time this topic came up. good to see other open minds out there.

      --
      The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
    3. Re:Hmmm... I don't see the problem here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you re-read the ACLU paper, you'll note that the facial recognition software does not scan all of the faces in the crowds and "filter" out the few for the officers to examine. It works the other way around.

      The operator has to "zoom in" on a face before the software looks for a match. So, in effect, the operates as a filter for the software, selecting "suspicious" individuals from those walking by the cameras to zoom in on, and then seeing if they match anyone in the database.

      One of the things that the ACLU discovered was that eventually, the logs showed no entries. They hypothesized a few possible explanations: after all of the false positives either (a) the threshold for a positive was raised so high that positives (true or false) were not happening, (b) the operators stopped recording false positives and (c) the operators stopped wasting their time zooming in on people and checking them against the database.

    4. Re:Hmmm... I don't see the problem here by truesaer · · Score: 2
      Well, the problem is that you should be able to go about your life withou the police scanning you at every moment you show your face in public. Yes, its public, but I sort of like the hands-off policy of policiing the US. And, our crime is really very low in most places so it hasn't caused any problems to do it this way.


      Also, the ACLU found that they identified a total of zero (0) criminals in Tampa with this system, so its also a waste of money....

    5. Re:Hmmm... I don't see the problem here by revscat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A similar argument was once used in regards to lie detectors: Since there is a failsafe mechanism (a human) involved, the chance of abuse is lessened considerably. However, history has shown this not to be the case, and law enforcement frequently trusts the machine over the man. I doubt that this technology will be much different, at least in this respect. It is much easier to trust the machine and haul someone in for questioning.

      Further, the use of these machines at airports means that people who potentially don't even have a high school diploma will be operating them. From me, at least, that fails to inspire much confidence.

    6. Re:Hmmm... I don't see the problem here by dragons_flight · · Score: 2

      On the flip side of that coin, the more you bring humans into the equation, the more you open it up to biased based abuse.

      If the computer has given you two potential matches regarding similar crimes, then do you pursue the black guy or the white guy? In the Tampa system, the operator had to zoom in on particular faces to run the software, do you believe that there was no profiling in who he choose to look at? Will the operator be as good at eliminating false positives when the person is from a different racial group than he is?

      Sure there is a human layer that offers some protection. The machine will never decide guilt or innocence, but the human layer also diminishes many of the bias-nuetral advantages that this technology is purported to have.

    7. Re:Hmmm... I don't see the problem here by (trb001) · · Score: 1

      A similar argument was once used in regards to lie detectors: Since there is a failsafe mechanism (a human) involved, the chance of abuse is lessened considerably. However, history has shown this not to be the case, and law enforcement frequently trusts the machine over the man.

      But humans can't determine with their natural senses whether or not someone is lying, so if the machine catches an otherwise unknown sensation (ie, blood pressure rising, pulse quickening) that's when we take it's work over a humans'. However, I heartily agree with the person you're responding to...these things are filters, that reduce the number of candidates from 200,000 to 20. A person then comes in, looks at the picture and compares it to the real person. Heck, I don't care if security escorts me out into the hall briefly...I'm at a public event where they suspect someone may be endangering lives, I'll take 2 minutes out of my life to show them i'm not Arab or carrying a bomb.

      I am a liberal. This means I read books and have opposable thumbs.

      Frankly, I think this one sentence speaks volumes more than the rest of your post...

      --trb

    8. Re:Hmmm... I don't see the problem here by DG · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, there's a major difference between this technology and a lie detector.

      Humans are not very good at detecting lies, and can in fact get very good at certain, specialized forms of deception, even in the face of equally speciallized deception-detectors. (I'm thinking here of professional poker players, who make their living on deceiving and detecting deception, in a very specialized manner)

      So a lie detector is an attempt to augment an ability.

      But humans are VERY good at facial recognition, much better than any machine is. The limitation here that the machine is trying to address is one of storage capacity (memory) and speed, not ability per sae.

      I make the assumption here that the interface would display the picture of the person that it thinks the person in question matches alongside the picture from its camera (or print one for the officer to carry with him for an in-person comparison) so that the vastly superior human facial recognition abilities could be brought into play.

      So, really, I don't see any reason to get upset. It's no different than if an officer saw your photo on a "wanted" poster in the post office, and then made the match from memory, only now the "memory" is much larger.

      When an arrest warrent is cut, your driver's licence is flagged in the DMV computers. If you get pulled over (for any reason) and your licence is checked against this database, they get you. How is this any different?

      DG

      --
      Want to learn about race cars? Read my Book
    9. Re:Hmmm... I don't see the problem here by (trb001) · · Score: 1

      Also, the ACLU found that they identified a total of zero (0) criminals in Tampa with this system, so its also a waste of money....

      And how many times have you compiled a program the first time with no errors? First runs aren't perfect, never have been, never will be. But had someone not pursued improvements on the first attempt at flight, we wouldn't have the space shuttle or intercontinental flights. And we all have more than a 1/2Mhz computer, so thank God someone improved on that...

      --trb

    10. Re:Hmmm... I don't see the problem here by jeffy124 · · Score: 2

      i agree that bias may exist, but that would exist anyhow and there's not much that can be done to prevent other than fire the person if they're caught.

      The only way I see bias, however, is much different than yours. To my knowledge, the system in tampa scans/zooms/pans through crowds in whatever fashion it does, then notifies an operator of a possible match. Control of the camera get switched over to the operator so they can have a look for themselves to verify the match and initiate further action if they see fit. Chances are good these operators are going to be minimum wagers, not police officers, so the chance of bias is high (much like modern airport security), whether it be race/sex/whatever.

      I guess a solution would be to have multiple operators in multiple locations. When a match comes up, present it to more than one person. Differences of judgement go to a supervisor or something for a decision. While still not perfect, it does introduce some level of checks-and-balance.

      Aside from all that, it has been theorized (not yet proven) by psychologists that people have difficulty identifying someone of another race. An example I can think of off the top of my head is an old 20/20 (or maybe Dateline?) story where a white woman was raped by a black man. In a police line up, the woman picked out the suspect. DNA and other evidence set the man free without being charged. Several months later, that DNA evidence (stored in a DB of some sort), was used against someone caught in an another rape case. Turns out that guy was present in the original line up -- the woman picked out the wrong guy. The only similarity the two men had were height and skin color. Faces were not especially similar.

      --
      The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
    11. Re:Hmmm... I don't see the problem here by Tackhead · · Score: 2
      > And how many times have you compiled a program the first time with no errors? First runs aren't perfect, never have been, never will be.

      An excellent point.

      Consider that there's a reason why the INS requires "immigration-style" (3/4 portrait, ear showing) photographs, as opposed to "driver's-license-style" (full-face, straight-on) photographs.

      While the technique of using video cameras (NTSC shitty resolution, possibly at long range) in Ybor City doesn't work when your database is full of crappy photos, the technique of using high-resolution still-image cameras, at close range, at centralized locations, such as airport security checkpoints, and cross-referencing those photographs with photographs taken at a known distance and angle, is probably eminently workable.

      Indeed, I'd say a good first step would be to change the procedures for a driver's license photo, to include both photos. The traditional "face-on" one could remain in use by the cop on the street, and the non-traditional 3/4 portrait for entry into a faceprint database, for automated pattern-matching software.

      Finally, consider that replacing the Ybor City model of omnipresent (yet still inaccurate to the point of uselessness) cameras ogling the world, with a system whereby only a few (yet highly more accurate) cameras are required at points whereby identification is required in the first place (such as aircraft jetways, or border crossings), is likely to be both less invasive to privacy and far more effective at nabbing Bad Guys.

    12. Re:Hmmm... I don't see the problem here by dragons_flight · · Score: 2

      According to the ACLU, in Tampa: "[T]he system does not automatically scan the faces of people on the sidewalks - operators must manually zoom in on a citizen's face before it registers in the software"

      Which would be the basis for selection bias.

      i agree that bias may exist, but that would exist anyhow and there's not much that can be done to prevent other than fire the person if they're caught.

      Do you fire the person for being biased even if they don't realize that they are being so? There is a lot of research showing how people can have preferences that they aren't consciously aware of.

    13. Re:Hmmm... I don't see the problem here by jeffy124 · · Score: 2

      striaght from the company's website:

      FaceIt® will automatically detect human presence, locate and track faces, extract face images, perform identification ....

      I dont see "The operator will manually control the camera's positioning and focus." Seems to me the ACLU got it wrong in a big way. From what I've seen on TV about this technology, this is how it works in Tampa, and has for years in the UK.

      As for firing people over bias, naturally there would be a "corrective action period" where the person is told they're being baised, how they determined that, and to shape up.

      --
      The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
    14. Re:Hmmm... I don't see the problem here by Hunsvotti · · Score: 1

      The real pincher is not the man/machine synergy, but the fact that law enforcement officials are just as susceptible to corrpution and other mental malfunctions as anyone else - and thus, they cannot really be trusted more than anyone else with what power they are given.

      It's true for anyone in a position of power, really - there are tales of people committing "inconvenient" relatives and other acquaintances to Bedlam and other psychiatric hospitals of the '40s and '50s so that they'd be lobotomized. If you had a friend in a high place, or were willing to part with enough cash, it could be done.

    15. Re:Hmmm... I don't see the problem here by symbolic · · Score: 2

      Scenario: a FaceIt operator dismisses his 109th false positive side-by-side alert provided by the software. How confident do you think he/she is, at this point, that ANY of them will net a postitive identity? When you combine this with the equal likelihood that there can be false negatives (something the ACLU article didn't even mention), this is utter chaos - criminals getting away because they haven't been recognized, and innocent people being flagged as possible criminals. Where's the benefit?

    16. Re:Hmmm... I don't see the problem here by truesaer · · Score: 2

      This was supposedly a production product, that apparantly worked. I mean, if they sold it to the police I'm guessing that if the cameras had picked up a face that they were looking for it would have some reasonable chance of identifying it. I hope no one started selling seats on an airliners before they tested to see if the plane could fly.

    17. Re:Hmmm... I don't see the problem here by a+random+streaker · · Score: 1

      > Ah, I see. Frankly, I don't think Northern
      > Ireland is a particularly good model for the
      > kind of society I want to live in.

      Tell me about it. &lt sarcasm=on>Just when the British have you convinced they have a case about the evil Catholics there,&lt/sarcasm> the English equivalent of trailer trash have a parade through Catholic neighborhoods about an ancient brutal war victory of Protestants over Catholics.

      --
      "All representatives are busy. The estimated hold time is one..hundred..sixty..four..minutes." Detroit Edison, 02/01/02
    18. Re:Hmmm... I don't see the problem here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's an urban myth. It's just coincidence that Granda got lobotomized right after he threatened to cut me out of his will

  11. foiling the cameras by greesil · · Score: 1
    I always thought it'd be a fun idea to put full size pictures of known terrorists' faces on t-shirts to screw around with it. I could just see it now: SWAT team converging on terminal B-9 at Miami Airport, over the radio you hear,

    "Osama's been spotted. Take him out, over."

    "I guess he didn't stay in that cave very long, over."



    -G
  12. Freedom vs. Security by spector30 · · Score: 1

    At what point, when the technology is capable of functioning better than this one has, do we say enough is enough? When do we shut down the system that says you are guilty until proven innocent? In the US we have been falsely raised to believe innocent until proven guilty is the prevailing law. Well, no more. Since 9-11 we have been hearing more and more about tracking individuals with this or that new gadget. As far as I am concerned this would be fine if you were not talking about American citizens. You want to track foreign nationals when they come into our country to make sure they are here doing as they said they would when then crossed our border. Fine. Since when did we decide that Big Brother was ok? I don't know, but I don't like it. We are never going back to the days when we moved about as freely as we once did, but do we have to give up every ounce of freedom for security's sake?

    "Clean underwear? Why?!? ... First you're gonna say it, then you're gonna do it" -Bill Cosby

    --
    If Darwin was right, you'd be dead by now.
    1. Re:Freedom vs. Security by adamy · · Score: 1

      I agree withmost of what you are saying except for

      As far as I am concerned this would be fine if you were not talking about American citizens. You want to track foreign nationals when they come into our country to make sure they are here doing as they said they would when then crossed our border.


      The bill of rights is based on the concept of the rights of an individual human being.
      The concept is that a bunch of equal human berings banded together to provide for the common defense of them. If we feel these are inalienable human rights, than anyone who falls under the umbrella of the US constitution, and by extension, the US government, should be guarenteed those rights.

      Everyone.

      The right to a fair trial is to ensure that, as best we as fallible human beings can determine, such and such a crime was commited on such and such a location. Remove that, and we'll have witch hunts.

      --
      Open Source Identity Management: FreeIPA.org
    2. Re:Freedom vs. Security by Tackhead · · Score: 2
      > At what point, when the technology is capable of functioning better than this one has, do we say enough is enough? When do we shut down the system that says you are guilty until proven innocent?

      Who said anything about that?

      Indeed, the more accurate the technology gets, the less likely the software is to make a false positive.

      And supposing you are flagged by a false positive -- the cop who walks up to you and eyeballs you is likely to say "No, the software's wrong", and let you move on.

      And finally, suppose the cop also makes the same mistake. (Suppose, in the worst case, that you have a twin brother...) Well, sucks to be you. But then your lawyer subpoenas the various agencies to check the audit trail of your movements (security camera footage, face-idents, cell phone logs, IP addresses from Carnivore's logs of your /. postings), which demonstrate pretty conclusively that you were in East Bumfuck, Wisconsin at the time the crime took place in Los Angeles, California, and you're off the hook, with charges dropped.

    3. Re:Freedom vs. Security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      As far as I am concerned this would be fine if you were not talking about American citizens. You want to track foreign nationals when they come into our country to make sure they are here doing as they said they would when then crossed our border. Fine.

      Turn that around.

      Would it be fine if you went to another country that decided to track foreign nationals there? In other words, would you like Canada tracking you whenever you went there until the moment you left, making sure you were doing as you said you would when your crossed their border?

      Think about it.

  13. Police love it, everyone else hates it by Papa+Legba · · Score: 1

    The local police in Virginia Beach want to install this to monitor the ocean front area. They are so gung ho about it that they are willing to fight city hall on this issue. The mayor and the local city council have both said that they do not like the idea and the police chiefs reply was that they were going ahead with it anyways.

    The reason that I point this out is that I have to wonder what is going on behind the scenes. We have a technology that is unproven at best and most likely unworkable. Yet we see police chiefs risking their jobs to get it installed. Is it the kick backs or something more sinister? Probably kick backs but I would really like to know for sure.

    --
    Papa Legba come and open the gate
  14. How OOP Can Solve Face-Recognition Problems by dbretton · · Score: 1

    if( face.has_hat == TRUE && face.hat == TURBAN)
    {
    face.is_terrorist = TRUE;
    police.arrest(face.parent);
    police.beat(face.parent);
    police.eatDonuts();
    }

    1. Re:How OOP Can Solve Face-Recognition Problems by Tackhead · · Score: 2

      > face.is_terrorist = TRUE;
      > police.arrest(face.parent);
      > police.beat(face.parent);
      > police.eatDonuts();

      Wait a minute, if they beat your face in well enough the first time you get falsely-identified, you won't be recognized the second time.

      I'd say this tech will stop police face-beatings, not encourage 'em ;-)

  15. face recognition? by BankofAmerica_ATM · · Score: 0
    Back when I was confined to my ATM enclosure, I had a lot of trouble with "punk rock" kids shoplifting circus peanuts and leaning their mud-covered skateboards onto my enclosure.

    Other bad things have happened as well. One time, a drunk urinated all over me and the wire rack full of toys next to me. LaWanda, the night shift clerk, was asleep, and the crook went unpunished.

    Face recognition systems could stop drunks and punk-rock kids from defacing convenience stores (and ATMs) with their shenanegins.

  16. Where do you draw the line? by brad3378 · · Score: 1

    Not to sound like a troll - This is a legitimate question.

    Why do we allow the local convienience store to film us, yet we seem to have a problem with our government doing the same thing? Is it the database of faces that scares us? What if K-Mart used facial recognition to associate our purchases with our face. Would it be wrong for them to have televisions throughout the store interactively suggest purchases?

    Don't get me wrong, I like retaining my rights,
    but in this case, I feel that the rights of law enforcement agencies are being restricted.

    --

    1. Re:Where do you draw the line? by hether · · Score: 1

      It's that K-Mart and other stores do not use the tapes to actively seek out criminals. They only use them to watch for crimes that may be occuring in their stores. Its also semi-private property and people know the cameras are there.

      There isn't near as much of a chance for someone to be wrongfully accused - and even if they are accused of something like shoplifting its a simple process to clear them of the charge in the store. Sure its embarrasing, but not nearly as big of a deal as if the police take you away for verification. If you are picked up on a camera by the government as a criminal, I am willing to bet that when they track you down it won't be near as simple of a process as what you'd experience at K-Mart.

      As for K-Mart using facial recognition to suggest purchases - I think its an awful idea, but for other reasons than those associated with the loss of privacy.

      --

      Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do.
    2. Re:Where do you draw the line? by HCase · · Score: 1

      It seem to me that most people aren't to upset about just being filmed. The convenience store has security cameras, but it doesn't really come into use much unless a crime is actually commited. When you add in a database and a system that tags the wrong people, anyone could get grabbed by police for questioning because of a glitch.

      As for k-mart. i really don't think i'd care to much for them tracking my face for personalized ads. but then i don't like it when companies keep track of that much information on me in general.

    3. Re:Where do you draw the line? by coyote-san · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Your local convenience store can't detain you.

      Well, technically they can. But the public, including that rent-a-cop in the convenience store, can only detain a person 1) if they witnessed a crime and 2) to turn them over to a sworn police officer at the earliest possible time. If either piece is missing, you can nail them for "false arrest." This is an important thing to remember if you're ever (wrongly) accused of shoplifting - demand a real cop, *now*, to either arrest you or release you. If they refuse to call the cops... life will soon get *very* interesting.

      Even those bounty hunters have limited rights. They can detain someone who signed the bond papers, but there are some well-documented cases where the bounty hunters were prosecuted for kidnapping after detaining the wrong person and failing to exercise due diligence in verifying the identity of that person.

      But sworn police officers can detain people even if the officer didn't witness a crime. They can detain people even if there's no witnesses at hand, e.g., if they reasonably believe that the person is the subject of an arrest warrant issued by another jurisdiction.

      The cost of a false positive in a convenience store is minimal. They think you're a shoplifter because of their face recognition software? Fine, you walk away and shop at another store where they're more careful with their accusations.

      But a false positive with a police officer may have you arrested, at gunpoint, and detained for hours or days until you can prove that you aren't the escaped mass murderer you resemble.

      (IANAL, but this is stuff that should be required knowledge for a walking around on the street!)

      --
      For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
    4. Re:Where do you draw the line? by Happy+go+Lucky · · Score: 1
      Well, technically they can. But the public, including that rent-a-cop in the convenience store, can only detain a person 1) if they witnessed a crime and 2) to turn them over to a sworn police officer at the earliest possible time.

      It's a good thing you're not a lawyer.

      The standard for investigative detentions throughout the US is "reasonable suspicion," as set down in the Supreme Court's ruling _Terry v. Ohio_. It's not whether someone actually witnessed a crime. It's actually a fairly minimal standard-all it takes is a suspicion, and the ability to articulate that suspicion and its reason for existence. Someone walking through a parking lot at night looking into multiple cars without getting into any of them counts, and I could definitely detain that person for a field interview, check him for wants and prior contacts, et cetera. It would be a tactically stupid thing for the lot's owner to do the same, but he could. (To an extent: only cops have access to the computerized warrant database or our field contact records. He wouldn't be able to check those)

      A typical police academy will cover about two dozen court decisions, with this one being the first.

      In my state, the law does not distinguish between the powers of peace officers and private citizens to detain, and there's almost no distinction made between officers and the public WRT warrantless arrest. In other words, if the Sears loss-prevention guys have a reasonable suspicion that you're shoplifting, they're legally able to detain you whether they actually saw it or not.

    5. Re:Where do you draw the line? by Secret+Coward · · Score: 1
      They think you're a shoplifter because of their face recognition software? Fine, you walk away and shop at another store where they're more careful with their accusations.

      The facial recognition system constitutes a standardized test. If every store uses the same technology, and shares their list of suspects, you won't be able to shop anywhere. When the manager kicks you out, they will make a note that the system is working great!

  17. face recognition has better uses by cmckay · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The ACLU attacks face recognition when it is used to find criminals among the general public. (In other words, the system flags an individual as "suspect" if their face is found in a database of images).

    I think a much better use would be in an access-control situation-- flag someone as suspicious if their face is NOT in the database.

    It isn't too difficult to socially engineer your way into a building if you don't work there. But if employees were required to look at a camera for a split second before passing by the security desk, it would be much easier to identify those who don't belong (especially in large companies).

    No, I don't think face recognition is accurate enough yet, but there are legit and non-privacy-invading uses for this technology.

  18. Clearly... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Clearly this is just annother attempt of the US Government to take the rights away from its citizens. It won't be long before you'll have to give a DNA sample as you enter into a sports arena, and then into common places, such as a supermarket or brothel. This so called "war on terrorism" is nothing but a front to allow the US to catch up on it's plans to take away the rights of everyone, except the homeless. Yes, that's right, Orwell was right. They're working toward creating 1984. The FBI and CIA and probably a hundred others that we don't even know exist are sitting there watching us. Yes, they're even going to start "suggesting" what we should name our children. Oh, not overtly, just by planting nanoprobes into mothers as they give them "painkillers". I'm amazed that no one has come to stop me as I expose the truth!

  19. Re: NOT OK by fleener · · Score: 2

    If the system has failed to catch a single criminal, why on earth are taxpayers funding a failure? The company should give the technology away until it is proven.

  20. Interesting result, odd conclusion by jfengel · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The ACLU's statement of fact, that face recognition doesn't work, is interesting and useful. It means that more work is necessary for this to be a functional technology.

    But I'm not sure how that leads to their conclusion, "the technology does not deliver security benefits sufficient to justify the Orwellian dangers that they present." If the stuff doesn't work, then it doesn't present any dangers.

    At least, not any more dangers than the police officer standing out there looking for people. I'm not sure that the ACLU would grant police that right, actually, since it is a violation of what they seem to consider an absolute right of privacy.

    In my opinion, a society will always make exchanges of some about of liberty for security. For example, I don't have the liberty to shoot people. The boundaries will always be contentious, but it seems to be as if this sort of absolutism does not comprise a reasonable discussion of where the boundaries are most appropriately set.

    1. Re:Interesting result, odd conclusion by dragons_flight · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The Orwellian danger is having a camera on every curb, and the potential for John Q. Public to be under constant surveillance. I'd expect that most people would be upset or put off if the police followed them around all day watching what they do. The police argue that the contentious and widespread use of cameras is justifiable because facial recognition gives them a legitimate and bias-nuetral use.

      The ACLU is saying that the system doesn't work, so there is no good reason for deploying lots of cameras. (Actually they are saying more than that, but that's the part that's easy to agree with.) In any case, it's clear that the survelliance capacity presents a danger even if the intended purpose for the system doesn't work.

    2. Re:Interesting result, odd conclusion by jfengel · · Score: 1

      Point well taken, thank you. I believe I now understand their concern. If this article had not been published, the police might have deployed hundreds of "face recognition" cameras which actually had a more nefarious purpose, since the face recognition didn't work.

      While I appreciate and commend the ACLU's work protecting me from overzealous police, the antagonistic tone may be counterproductive. I'd like to believe that the police would say, "Gee, this doesn't work, let's wait a few years and try again" rather than try to use it as cover for a genuinely Orwellian plot.

      Perhaps I'm naive, but as long as this is framed in terms of the ACLU wanting absolute privacy, and the police depicted as the agents of Big Brother, it's unlikely that we'll actually find any sort of useful compromise.

      Mind you, I live in Prince George's County, Maryland, where the police _are_ actively engaged in covering up abuses, as documented in The Washington Post. So perhaps I'm deliberately ignoring ugly truths rather than being simply naive.

    3. Re:Interesting result, odd conclusion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >> For example, I don't have the liberty to shoot people.

      Bullshit!

      You just don't have the liberty of getting away with it on the street.

  21. One-sided arguement by isa-kuruption · · Score: 2, Insightful

    All the ACLU wants to do is discredit the technology, not actually find out if it works. Therefore, they're going to adjust their "findings" to suit their benefit.

    Just because the technology failed in their "one month study" doesn't mean it's not a success. How many criminals could be walking down the street of NYC right now without anyone even noticing them? I'm sure there are plenty! Even if you have the person's face plastered on every telephone post, could you with 100% accuracy point your finger and say "THAT IS THE GUY IN THE PHOTO!". I know I couldn't. How many times have people misidentified criminals... seeing someone and saying it looked like someone else... then when the police did looked into the suspect, found he or she was not guilty? This happens all the time. So to say that the technology is flawed because it picked up innocent people is just dumb.

    The other point made was that was made in the MSNBC article was that the system failed to point out someone with a 15 degree variance in the image they had compared to the person being compared... or if the lighting situtation was different. Unless you know someone and you see them daily, can YOU tell a person by their profile view when you only have picture of their face? No, you can't. If it was dark, could you tell? No.

    Another point, that the system was gender bias... well, I know several people who could go either way sexually... and if you were to look at someone with long hair and lipstick, wouldn't you consider them female? All the guys who pick up drag queens accidently in NYC everyday surely couldn't tell the difference between male and female!

    ACLU is making lame points and has no real evidence. Then again, I haven't seen any university studies or other non-biased studies on this situation. The ACLU claims Tampa police have abandoned the technology, which seems to be an all out lie. It's all a bunch of bullshit, and that single item is the proof.

    1. Re:One-sided arguement by sphealey · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Just because the technology failed in their "one month study" doesn't mean it's not a success.
      Polygraphs (so-called "lie detectors") have a failure rate of around 60%. In other words they are worse than just going before a judge and asking him to flip a coin to determine guilt. Yet they have been in use in the US for 70 years, and the every year the USG comes out with a larger list of people who must be polygraphed.

      So I would say it is definately worth it to fight very hard against bad technology right from the start.

      sPh

    2. Re:One-sided arguement by isa-kuruption · · Score: 2

      Polygraphs aren't used as the definitive answer either. They are used as an "aide" just as this is. Same thing, eye-witnesses make mistakes all the time (not sure about any percentages, but I'm sure it's up there).. so does that mean we should stop relying on eye whitnesses too?

      The fact the polygraph has been used for 70 years shows that it is an effective means of collecting evidence. If it wasn't, they wouldn't still use it.

    3. Re:One-sided arguement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      The fact the polygraph has been used for 70 years shows that it is an effective means of collecting evidence.

      Bzzzzzt. Wrong. Thanks for playing.

      It means that some people think it is effective - there is a big difference between that and actually being effective.

      Polygraphs also add the illusion of objectiveness to things that are very subjective. We're much more confortable with a '72.33% truth threshold' than with a 'probably'.

    4. Re:One-sided arguement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bzzzzt. Wrong. Thanks for playing.

      Your point of view is subjective. So is the examiner's. However, a polygraph can tell when someone's nervous when you can't. The point of the polygraph is to determine if a particular person is "worried" or "nervous" or "under stress" which causes spikes in the polgygraph. It is not up to the polygraph, but up to the examiner to determine whether the answers given by the suspect are truth or not based on the spikes. Therefore, the failure rate does not lie within the machine, but the operator of the machine.

    5. Re:One-sided arguement by sphealey · · Score: 3, Insightful
      The fact the polygraph has been used for 70 years shows that it is an effective means of collecting evidence. If it wasn't, they wouldn't still use it.
      Not to be rude, but you might want to do a little research on human nature. As far as is known, humans are unique in the animal kingdom in their ability to convince themselves that something which is objectively false or useless is "effective".

      If you read up on the history of the polygraph, this is clearly what is going on. Faced with a choice of admitting that they don't know who the heck committed a crime, or using a demonstrably useless machine, investigative agencies (particularly the FBI) have been using the useless machine for 70 years. And have now made such a culture of using it that they dare not admit to anyone, particularly themselves, that it just doesn't work.

      sPh

    6. Re:One-sided arguement by freshmkr · · Score: 1
      Polygraphs (so-called "lie detectors") have a failure rate of around 60%.

      What, exactly, does this mean? If it's wrong 60% of the time, couldn't you just use the opposite answer from the polygraph test and have it be wrong 40% of the time instead?

      Some clarification would be helpful.

      --Tom

    7. Re:One-sided arguement by sphealey · · Score: 2
      It is not up to the polygraph, but up to the examiner to determine whether the answers given by the suspect are truth or not based on the spikes. Therefore, the failure rate does not lie within the machine, but the operator of the machine.
      Much like high-end hand woodworking tools, polygraphs cannot be used without a human operator. And (even granting your argument, which I don't) the performance of the machine is inseperable from the performance of the operator. So by definition any failure of the operator is a failure of "the machine", or "the system including the machine" if you prefer. And the failure rates speak for themselves.

      sPh

    8. Re:One-sided arguement by sphealey · · Score: 2
      If it's wrong 60% of the time, couldn't you just use the opposite answer from the polygraph test and have it be wrong 40% of the time instead?
      No, because what has to be measured is what the operator concludes. In statistically valid studies, even when operators have been informed that they are wrong more often than not, they still reach the wrong conclusion. You could argue that the superiors of the operators could apply the method you describe, but that would mean admitting that the system doesn't work, which would be a poor argument in court.

      Some clarification would be helpful.
      I agree, but the clarification would have to come from those who manufacture and support polygraphs, and I doubt that you will get honest answers from them - even if hooked up to a polygraph!

      sPh

    9. Re:One-sided arguement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  22. Maybe a compromise... by toupsie · · Score: 2

    If we are forced to live with Face Recognition Systems, we should require the person operating the camera system to have their photo and their personal information presented next to the camera. They shouldn't have anything to hide, should they? They have my data, why shouldn't I have theirs...

    --
    Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
    1. Re:Maybe a compromise... by freaq · · Score: 1

      reminds me of this site, well worth wandering around in.

      sousveillance

      the guy has been at it a long time, and has come up with some interesting approaches from both a technical and a social perspective. the 25 MB video file inside sears had me both laughing on the floor and scared shitless. "Call security" takes on a whole new meaning...

      taking action isn't difficult, but the powers that be want you to think so.

      hope that helps.

      --
      united states nuclear device terrorist bioweapon encryption cocaine korea syria iran iraq columbia cuba
  23. Boon to Ellison & Co. by Zen+Mastuh · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This facial recognition has a near-zero Hit rate and a high false-positive (Type III error???) rate. The false-positive rate is a killer because it may cause system operators to miss a Hit (true positive). So what do we end up with: an authoritarian tool that is completely worthless.

    Meanwhile, the failure of this project can be a selling point for Larry Ellison's proposed National ID card system. Perhaps the streetlamp cameras in Ybor City will soon be replaced by turnstiles manned by undereducated, undermotivated, understimulated, minimum-wage-earning Security Engineers (read: displaced airport security screeners) checking each person's National ID card. These people probably won't be able to grasp the concept of Type II/III errors; thus the implementation of the National ID Card will suffer from the same problems as the facial recognition system.

    In summary the two vendors will profit substantially from their products--which won't make the public any safer--and we will be eased into acceptance of the mercantilist authoritarian police state.

    --
    "What is the sound of one belly slapping?"
  24. It's biggERING by Newer+Guy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You don't know about biggERING? I guess you never read Dr. Seuss' "The Lifted Lorax" as a kid. Biggering is what happens to EVERY government everything...and many corporations as well. See, they're not happy being the size they are..so they bigGER. If you have one employee working for you, now you want two. Then two becomes four and so on and son on and so on. This police chief is the perfect example. he wants a biGGER police department. More toys = more employees needed to install, run and maintain the toys. Now he can say: Hey, I now run a 100 person dept. (as opposed to a 40 person one five years ago) I need a BIG raise (after all, crime is mostly down everywhere so he surely needs a biGGER dept, now doesn't he?)! And on it goes. Read the Lorax. You'll understand.

  25. Wanna see something funny? by Moorlock · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Check out this article from the Christian Science Monitor - at the top is a photo captioned "Pelco CEO David McDonald walks through the X-ray checkpoint at Fresno Yosemite International Airport with a picture of Osama bin Laden to demonstrate a new face identification system."

    For more on McDonald's over-hyping of the emperor's new security blanket, see this article from the Fresno Bee .

    Sample quote: "This breakthrough technology makes us the safest airport in America," Mayor Alan Autry said.

    --
    Quiquid latine dictum sit altum viditur
    1. Re:Wanna see something funny? by Zen+Mastuh · · Score: 2

      Ha! Funny pic. Now I wonder what is the difference--to a camera--between a 2-D rendering and a 3-D face? The image of ibn Laden on the photo paper is a reflection (bad pun...) of the lighting, f-stop, and other conditions determined by when/where/how the picture was taken. An image taken of a person walking through the airport security checkpoint will be subjected to the same conditions, unique to the location. There will be some difference--to the camera--between a real-life ibn Laden walking through the checkpoint and a man of different stature walking through with an image of ibn Laden in front of his face.

      The Pelco system must use some very loose logic to indicate a probable Hit. This will lead to higher Type II/III errors and greater mistrust of the system. Not before Pelco profits outrageously, though.

      --
      "What is the sound of one belly slapping?"
    2. Re:Wanna see something funny? by jeff13 · · Score: 1


      The AcSys Biometrics Face Recognition, unlike some, will not accept photos. It may even balk at a person standing perfectly still (if it's set at a high tolerance) as a real, moving human is demanded by the algorithm.

      Some Face Rec is better than others. :)
      http://www.acsysbiometricscorp.com/

    3. Re:Wanna see something funny? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah, the good old Christian Science Monster.

      Crap, did I say that out loud?

  26. groovy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    right on, man

  27. Excerpt from ACLU report by Moorlock · · Score: 1
    "The move to permanently brand some people as under suspicion and monitor them as they move about in public places has deep and significant social ramifications. If we are to take that path - a step that the ACLU opposes - we should do so as a nation, consciously, after full debate and discussion, and not simply slide down that road through the incremental actions of local police departments."
    --
    Quiquid latine dictum sit altum viditur
    1. Re:Excerpt from ACLU report by bungalow · · Score: 2

      Probation.

      Texas Sex Offender Database.

      Revocation of right to vote for (some?) felons.

    2. Re:Excerpt from ACLU report by Moorlock · · Score: 1

      All of which, good or bad, were passed into law after public deliberation and are subject to judicial oversight. Unlike the actions of police departments deciding on their own to add a new technology to their arsenal. Which I think was the ACLU's point.

      --
      Quiquid latine dictum sit altum viditur
  28. I was just thinking of this very subject before by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I logged onto slashdot this morning. Do I think face recognition is a bad thing? Well that depends on who has it....

    A blind person that uses face recognition technology to "hear" who a person is, is cool.

    A law enforcement agency using it to scan every person as they pass through a turnstile at an amusement park, not cool.

    I saw a discovery channel special where london police used face recognition technology to pick off riot prone people out of a stadium. I didn't think that was cool at all.

  29. The system is only "part" of the solution... by garoush · · Score: 2

    ...and I want to emphasize: "part".

    To me this is just like predicting weather. All weather stations (SW & HW) out there do is "predict" the weather -- humans than jump in to validate the "prediction". To me, this system is no different.

    Granted, it still needs a lot more work, but wasn't the first weather station in the same state when it was first introduce? Lets give this thing some time before killing it down.

    ACLU is looking for a reason to discredit the system; they need to do a better job than spend two months reviewing one uint which used only 2 days a week

    --

    Karma stuck at 50? Add 2-5 inches.. err.. 2-5x Karmas Count to your pen1es.. err.. Karma all naturally and private
  30. This is not great news... by bungalow · · Score: 4, Insightful
    As much as it sounds like good news, it is not great.

    Remember the good ol' days of th'Internet, where no one could possibly track you and where anonymity was technologically "guaranteed" ... now (some) users can be pinpointed via IP and login time - just check any ISP's radius logs...and activity can be, and is, logged by carnivore (that doesn't really exist we promise ... ok yes it does but we won't use it in a mean way we promise ... and we'll only use it if an isp lets us we proimise...but its easier for the ISP to leave it in place rather than get all LEGAL about it...but carnivore has really gone away and that's why there are no more articles about it...but it never really existed anyway...)

    My point is, that arguing the TECHNICAL weaknesses of this, or any other privacy-infringing item/product/software/etc. will only result in TECHNICAL innovations that make it more effective.

    We must argue the LEGAL weaknesses - the 4th amendment. We need to argue that no person waives their constitutional rights simply by the virtue of entering a commercial, travel, or other legal relationship with any other entity. (unfortunately, I fear we lost this one a long time ago)

    We need to argue against clickwrap agreements, and their cousins:
    • "by entering this building, you agree that..."
    • "by engaging in airplane / train / public bus / private automobile transportation, you agree that..."


    Our legal rights are important. The details of whatever technology the FBI, CIA, or any other no - such - agency uses in an attempt to violate those rights, are less so.
    Don't Frustrate their efforts. Fight them head - on!
    1. Re:This is not great news... by jeff13 · · Score: 1

      Here here!

  31. Run the Slashdot Reaction Subroutine by LittleGuy · · Score: 2, Funny

    With a little tweaking, I believe the commentary on this issue will be iterated in the same categories as cited here.

    --
    Mod Karma -1: I sed bad wurds. If I cep my mouf shut, I wud be at riyses.
  32. Got mod points? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Then mod this post down, cowboy! It's a troll!




    (Completely ignore the fact that this is posted by an AC at (score: 0), which is below the (score:1) default threashold, where no right-thinking slashdotter will ever see it. Why waste a mod point elevating a good post when you can use it to dump on a no-good-shit(tm)? )

    1. Re:Got mod points? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know I'll get modded down for saying this, but here goes...[*]


      COME&nbsp ON&nbsp YOU&nbsp PUSSY&nbsp MODERATORS!&nbsp MOD&nbsp THIS&nbsp POST&nbsp DOWN!!!!




      [*]you know it's funny

  33. Re:first poop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oops I Crapped My Pants is a great product for keeping me firmly planted in my cubicle at work. That's how I know about 'em, you turd wrangler.

  34. Careful... by mshomphe · · Score: 2

    The points you've listed are all the result of limited technology. Given time, each of these can be overcome.

    There must be a broader argument against what face-recognition technology is trying to do -- keep the populace under surveillance.

    --
    She sat at the window watching the evening invade the avenue.
  35. What method will they use... by Marx_Mrvelous · · Score: 2

    I heard they used a method of testing based on the same engine that actually powers the facial recognition system. Eleven out of twelve tests came back that the recognition system wasn't effective. The other one reported that the system was, in fact, a jelly dougnut.

    --

    Moderation: Put your hand inside the puppet head!
    1. Re:What method will they use... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I knew you were a troll. Glad to see you got the +1 bonus, tho.

      BTW, you don't also own the Marx Marvelous UID, do you? That's a great cover!

  36. you should totally start a lawsuit by oomcow · · Score: 1

    heh, it would just be fun to see how far people could twist the dmca until we finally got it repealed. ;)

    i wonder if we could attack the fingerprint database too since it would fall under the same category of reverse engineering your prints into another format and circumventing the current storage mechanism.

    heh, then imagine if this lawsuit were a class action lawsuit. to claim shares of the payout, criminals would have to come and get them. (much like the classic tales of criminals being suckered out of hiding by letting them know they've won some sort of prize.) ;)

  37. ACLU is fighting the wrong fight. by SirStanley · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The ACLU apparently isn't happy with the Idea, not the technology. They are using the primitive technology that is currently in place to discredit the "Idea" the Idea is superb. IF we can have monitoring stations around that can succesfully detect wanted criminals it would be very useful and an extremley powerful aide against crime. The technology doesn't store the faces anywhere, unless you're a criminal. The ACLU bitches b ecause our freedom and privacy is at risk. What Privacy? You're in a public area, an area which is under patrol by cops. If you do something illegal in this area you can be arrested. The lives of other citizens are also in this public area. Likewise you're freedom isn't hindered by this system, unless your a wanted criminal. This monitoring idea isn't bad and it doesn't infringe on your rights. You're in public. You're not in your house. The ACLU as with many other traditionally leftists organizations like to screw the betterment of mankind over with ramblings of Constituitional rights. When they know damn well that its simply not true. Its not like these things are being placed in your homes.

    Pardon the bad grammar. And most likely spelling I just woke up and hung over

    --
    --------========+++Dont Feed The Lab Techs+++========--------
    1. Re:ACLU is fighting the wrong fight. by Rupert · · Score: 2

      Nitpick: the technology can store pictures of anyone it wants. It matches against the faces of a police-selected list of presumptively innocent people.

      --

      --
      E_NOSIG
    2. Re: ACLU is fighting the wrong fight. by J'raxis · · Score: 1
      The technology doesn't store the faces anywhere, unless you're a criminal.
      Are you sure about this? The police will store all sorts of records on you (fingerprints, mugshots, etc.) if youve ever been arrested, whether or not you were actually convicted of a crime. Why wouldnt digital images of faces be added to the list?

      And youre also ignoring the problem of false positives, i.e., innocent bystanders being recognized. You want to be denied access to some place or have an hour or two of your time wasted by the police because the computer thought you looked like someone in its database?

    3. Re:ACLU is fighting the wrong fight. by SirStanley · · Score: 2, Interesting
      It won't store the image longer than needed to identify it. It goes bye bye. IT can store the images if it really wanted too. But all those facees would take up lots of space. And they won't do that. Its one of those "Mis-use" Clauses.

      Slashdotters are weird in that they have double standards. If Strong-Crypto can be misused by criminals thats ok because there is a legit reason for the existence of such a technology. If this camera system were misused by the government thats bad. Even though there is a legit reason for the technology. And in the event it was misused by storing your picture permanently (WHICH IT DOES NOT) then there would be a very very large public outcry and it would be political suicide to support such implementations.

      Leftists always mean well but the cold hard facts of reality and the real world have yet to be realized by them.

      --
      --------========+++Dont Feed The Lab Techs+++========--------
    4. Re:ACLU is fighting the wrong fight. by arkanes · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Yeah, go ahead and keep thinking that the pictures just go away. And believe the FBI when they promise that they NEVER read the content part of the emails carnivore sniffs. I think you are grossly optimistic about what would cause a very very large public outcry (example: well documented evidence of ongoing wiretap abuse by the LAPD. No public outcry at all).
      We should hold public servants to a (much) higher moral standard than we hold private individuals, and there should be signifigant oversight. I also don't agree that there IS a legitimate use for widescale monitoring of innocent, private people - one of the (theoretical) keystones of our legal system is that people are innocent until they are PROVED guilty, and that it's better to let 100 guilty people go than convict 1 innocent person. The modern corporate/government culture of assuming people will be criminals unless you stop them cuts at the foundations of our society.

    5. Re:ACLU is fighting the wrong fight. by SirStanley · · Score: 1

      " I also don't agree that there IS a legitimate use for widescale monitoring of innocent, private people - one of the (theoretical) keystones of our legal system is that people are innocent until they are PROVED guilty, and that it's better to let 100 guilty people go than convict 1 innocent person."

      Thats fine and dandy if the cops were dumb enough to send someone to jail becauuse they were mistaken on a monitoring device. Simple as this. Someone mistaken for someone else. Cops come in and detain the person. Worst case scenario they are in jail for 24 hours. Cops offer apology. Person sues state gets some money. ohh wow. Best case scenario. Cops show up find out they made a mistake no harm done.

      You are also correct in making the statement that you are a private person. However the second you go out in public you are no longer a private person. Anything you do in public is no longer private. There is no guarentee of privacy in a public square, or a public park. Get over it .

      --
      --------========+++Dont Feed The Lab Techs+++========--------
    6. Re:ACLU is fighting the wrong fight. by sphealey · · Score: 2
      Simple as this. Someone mistaken for someone else. Cops come in and detain the person. Worst case scenario they are in jail for 24 hours. Cops offer apology.
      You don't deal very much with actual police or district attorneys (prosecutors), do you? Law enforcment personnel are humans. And like all humans, they have a tendency to (a) make quick judgements (b) take whatever actions are necessary to validate their judgements. Except that since they actually do deal with a lot of bad guys, they tend to become even more self-assured about their judgements than the typical human. And they have the tools to enforce those judgements.

      So the worst case scenario is more like (i) false positive on facial recognition system (ii) put in jail over a 3-day weekend, where you are beaten and raped a few times (iii) prosecutor decides you look like someone wanted for 3 outstanding child molestation warrents (iv) fast railroad to hell.

      If you don't believe me, make friends with any big-city cop. After about 15 years, when he starts to trust you, he will tell you about some of the things that really go on in the stationhouse.

      sPh

    7. Re:ACLU is fighting the wrong fight. by alfredw · · Score: 1

      You're absolutely right - we hold the government to a higher set of standards than we do a private individual. This is one of the foundations of the US (and most other contries') democracy.

      The idea is that the state has vastly superior resources to any given individual, that civil servants are only human, and that we must protect the rights of the individual. We therefore place extra restriction on the state to prevent it from abusing its enormous power, either systematically or through the acts of individuals. The more power that is vested in the hands of an individual, the more likely they are to use that power for their own needs or amusement. The US Constitution recognises this, and thus limits what can (legally) be done with those powers. If all cops were good people, we wouldn't need warrants for searches, seizures, and arrests, now would we?

      After all, in a democracy, the state is a collection of individuals. Attitudes like "the state is more limited as a whole than its components are individually" protect those who are in the minority from having their freedoms revoked.

      --
      In Soviet Russia, sig types you!
  38. Dramatic changes by Deanasc · · Score: 3, Interesting
    I've shaved my head and put on 40 pounds since my drivers liscence photo was taken 8 months ago. Sometimes I wear contact lenses, sometimes glasses so thick my eyes look like dots. If I wear a turtleneck jersey my head looks like a lump on my sholders. If I wear a tshirt I look like a turtle stretching it's neck.

    How will this software be able to truly establish it's me if my photo in the database is 40 pounds lighter and with contact lenses if I walk around with my glasses on now.

    I also wear false teeth so I can change my jawline at will.

    Come and get me!

    --
    I've hit Karma 50 and gotten a Score:5, Troll... I win!
  39. Camera worked for me! by zulux · · Score: 5, Interesting


    I put a visible non-working video camera pointed at the street and our local crack-house, and their business collapsed. The house in question was rented by a slum-lord to the lowest bidder and the drug traffic was driving me nuts. I made a good show of the camera and suddenly, the 'customers' were a bit leery. The druggies soon moved out and were replaced by a rather nice poor family.

    I was set to get the camera working, but the it's presence was enough. Highly recomended. PS: I removed the camera once it became obvious that the new tenants were cool.

    --

    Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.

  40. The upside of all this is: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I can't wait for the surviellance society.
    Pretty damn quick the powers that be will learn that people believe one thing Sunday morning and a completely different thing Friday night.

    There's a reason Playboy and High Times stay in business -- although they don't freely admit it, people like sex and drugs. Just imagine our moral leaders' dismay at having their noses shoved in that nasty little fact with corroborating statistics. And the realization that you can't legislate human nature.

  41. Face Recognition vs. Cameras by Judebert · · Score: 3, Insightful
    We're accustomed to being recorded regularly: practically anywhere we purchases anything, at ATMs, etc. The technology everyone is getting so upset about is just a logical enhancement to the camera... and a d*mn poor one, at that.

    According to the report, it almost doesn't work at all. Other installations using face recognition have degenerated into checking out the girls. I understand; it's gotta be boring as can be after the first 50,000 false alarms.

    It seems to me that this software isn't really an invasion of our privacy. The cameras themselves may be, but if we accept the cameras, we can't really quibble about the face recognition software.

    It's time to reconsider our concepts of privacy, anyway. Read David Brin's The Transparent Society and see if you don't come up with a new view.

    I think the cameras should be everywhere... especially the police station. And we should all be allowed to watch them. It would certainly make everyone think twice about their biases before taking drastic action.

    --

    For geek dads: Contraction Timer

  42. Why does everyone think I'm a troll? by Marx_Mrvelous · · Score: 2

    I just don't get it. I've been reading slashdot for years, comments and all. I've never posted anything negative, usually I ask a relevent question or try to make a joke. What else is there to do at work?

    --

    Moderation: Put your hand inside the puppet head!
  43. Re:Why Slashdot Sucks by alecks · · Score: 1

    looks like someone's paying attention.
    kudos

  44. Re:Why Slashdot Sucks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I second that, you hit the nail on the head.

    Kudos.

    MOM

  45. Doublemint by decipher_saint · · Score: 1

    Lets hope one of those twins doesen't turn evil...

    --
    crazy dynamite monkey
  46. The difference by coltrane99 · · Score: 1
    The convenience store is a private establishment. They have the right to secure it as they see fit, within established legal limits of course.

    Face scanning as performed by the police then differs in two ways: (1) It is being performed by public servants. (2) It is potentially done in any public spaces.

    If you don't want to be on a store security camera, don't go to the store. If you don't want to be in the police face-scan database, don't ever go out of your house.

    See the difference?

    1. Re:The difference by brad3378 · · Score: 1

      &gt If you don't want to be on a store security camera, don't go to the store. If you don't want to be in the police face-scan database, don't ever go out of your house.

      See the difference?


      Actually, no I don't.
      What if the privately owned store turns that same camera towards a public street? (or another public place)
      Should that be illegal? I guess you could then say: "If you don't want to be on the store's camera, then don't walk down that street"

      Don't get me wrong, I want to keep my rights,
      I'm just playing the devil's advocate.

      --

  47. Awwww come on guys... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Mod me down, pleeeeeease?!!!!




    BASTARDS.

  48. [ot] i didn't imagine a beowulf cluster of them... by msouth · · Score: 2

    ...but I did imagine several lawyers all jostling each other as they peered into a camera connected to a computer.

    --
    Liberty uber alles.
  49. the one question they didn't ask, however by supernova87a · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I read the ACLU pdf file, and found their conclusions interesting, particularly regarding the high number of false positives, and that the system was taken out of use basically because they were discouraged how few matches they were getting.

    But the one question that wasn't asked or answered in this piece is very important -- did the crime rate in that area drop during that period? Because if it did, the face recognition system may actually be working, and not seeing criminals may be a GOOD thing!

    If the system actually deters crime, and criminals know about the system being in place, it wouldn't be unexpected that criminals would choose to actively avoid that area, leading to a lower detection rate! Did they consider that?

    1. Re:the one question they didn't ask, however by jeff13 · · Score: 1

      So you think giving up ones rights, living in a Nazi state basically, is OK as long as the crime rate is low?

      Glad you aren't President of the USA.

      Look, crime cannot be attacked until after the crime is commited. That's not fair, that's life! Prevention is the path to fascism. The secret is not to create a police state, rather as things are in the US right now, but to believe in a better world. It won't prevent 9/11 incidents, but neither will the cops. It's about your life and the lives of your children. The future must be theirs, not yours.

  50. Easy Test by 3ryon · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It strikes me that there is a pretty easy test one could give to these machines. They talk about the database of millions of photos (of criminal, hopefully). Why don't they compare each of the photos to the others in the database? If there are many hits it's obvious that there is a big false positive problem....
    Or, it might find that some people believed to be different people are actually the same person.

  51. The web already has a "face database" by zincks · · Score: 1

    Check out images.google.com

    type in "your name" in quotes in the search engine. If you have a home page with a picture, it will probably come up. Ok, so you have a home page, you can't really complain about your picture being online.

    But, if you've ever been pictured in an online newspaper, (as in, local high school soccer team wins state championship, team members include: name, name, name, name), that picture may also be indexed and searchable by your name.

  52. Tampa police abandon face recognition by Master+Of+Ninja · · Score: 1

    Just for the info, the register has an article detailing how the police in Tampa have stopped using face recogntion as it hasn't identified any criminal while still giving false positives.

  53. A Little Reminder On Stats by robbway · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Back In late September I read and/or heard about these face recognition devices. According to statistics, the results were exactly correct.

    Assume a 90% accuracy with a database of 10 criminals. If there are 100,000 samples, 10% will be false positives. That's 10,000 alarms that mean nothing. Of the remaining 90,000 people, you'll get 9 true alarms (assume they walk by!) and 1 gets away. Therefore you have to fend off about a thousand errors to get a real suspect. At that point, human error could easily step in and assume it's another false alarm.

    This is the same objective reason racial profiling is wrong. You spend all your time and resources harrassing innocent people.

    Of course, a cheap solution to this problem is multiple camera angles.

    1. Re:A Little Reminder On Stats by schowley · · Score: 1

      Racial profiling is wrong, however I would take face recognition devices over just relying on airport metal detectors or the memory of a police officer that only knows the person their looking for is of a specific ethnic origin. At least with face recognition the computer is trying to match more than just, where I was born.

      --
      The sum of our knowledge today becomes the reference point of our ignorance tomorrow.
  54. Iron fists with velvet gloves by Secret+Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting
    An article at MIT describes the issues of surviellance societies.

    Some other negative aspects of the new surveillance can be briefly mentioned:

    IT IS CATEGORICAL in nature, involving "fishing expeditions" and "searches" absent any evidence of specific wrongdoing, thus violating the spirit of the Fourth Amendment. The presumption of innocence can be undermined-shifting the burden of proof from the state to the accused. There is also a danger of presumption of guilt (or an unwarranted innocence) by association or statistical artifact. And, because of the technical nature of the surveillance and its distancing aspects, the accused may (at least initially) be unable to face the accuser. The legal basis of some of the new surveillance's crime-prevention actions is also questionable.

    THE SYSTEM'S FOCUS on prevention entails the risk of wasting resources on preventing things that would not have occurred in any case, or, as sometimes occurs in undercover activities, of creating violations through self-fulfilling affects.

    POWERFUL NEW DISCOVERY mechanisms may overload the system. Authorities may discover far more violations than they can act upon. There is a certain wisdom to the ignorance of the three monkeys. Having information on an overabundance of violations can lead to the misuse of prosecutorial discretion or demoralization on the part of control agents. Charges of favoritism and corruption may appear as only some offenses can be acted upon.

    IN ORWELL'S AND OTHER science fiction accounts, control is both highly repressive and efficient. There is perfect control over information (whether the ability to discover infractions with certainty or to manage beliefs). As the examples cited suggest, the new surveillance has great repressive potential (in actuality or via myth). But it is invariable less than perfectly effective and certain, and it is subject to manipulation and error. 21

    ALTHOUGH DETERRING OR DISCOVERING some offenders, the routinization of surveillance, ironically, may grant an almost guaranteed means for successful violations and theft to those who gain knowledge of the system and take action to neutralize and exploit it. This suggests that, over time, many of these systems will disproportionately net the marginal, amateur, occasional, or opportunistic violator rather than the master criminal. The systematization of surveillance may grant the latter a kind of license to steal, even while headlines hail the effectiveness of the new techniques.

    1. Re:Iron fists with velvet gloves by sphealey · · Score: 2
      That's a great article. It hits many of the points that typically come up in these discussions, particularly why collecting large amounts of information and processing it years later, out of its original context, is different from observing activities in real time. Sorry I don't have any mod points.

      sPh

  55. Face Rec @ 100% no false positives. by jeff13 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Viisage technology is NOT the best on the market. However, one cannot check the results of testing online at the International Biometric Group website. Guess they don't think it's important for the whole world to know what algorithm gives the best results in independent testing. If your curious, The winner was the Canadian Company AcSys Biometrics Face Recognition Systems.

    Face Recognition is the least intrusive of the Big Brother security technologies. Especially when you take into consideration that scanning a crowd for a certain face will not work . Let's be real here kids, some companies are simply lying about what thier programs can do.

  56. How to make a better polygraph by Mockery · · Score: 1

    Polygraphs (so-called "lie detectors") have a failure rate of around 60%.

    False means true and true means false, now your polygraph is 20% more accurate!

  57. Orlando: Church Street Station by Ashcrow · · Score: 1

    They also use a form of it in Orlandos 'Church Street Station.' It attempts to figure out what your doing somehow. It's quite funny to see people get arested for hugging or kissing since it sometimes dispatches the police for mugging or rape.

    1. Re:Orlando: Church Street Station by t_allardyce · · Score: 1

      Is that legal? don't you have any kind of human rights laws to stop it?

      --
      This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
  58. Algorithm is the problem. by Chris+Burke · · Score: 2

    There's no evidence that the face-matching algorithm is the problem. It is for false positives, but the lack of true positives is just as likely to be a lack of... positives.

    There is evidence that the face-matching is the problem, and that evidence is in fact the false positives, of which there were quite a number (fourteen over three days). Personally, I see false positives as a more damning failure than a lack of true positives.

    There's a fundamental fact that is why both the lack of true positives isn't the problem, and why false positives are nigh-inevitable. That fact is that criminals are ridiculously less common than non-criminals. Even an extremely accurate and specific face recognition system is going to make more false positives than true ones. It's just an artifact of probability, which is why I'm against using these automated systems in the first place. That this particular system made so many false positives is indeed an indication that it sucks, however.

    But humans don't make very many false positives, you might say. And that's true (though it does happen). We do have a very advanced image recognition algorithm in our meat-computers. But that's not all. Think about whose faces you recognize. Have you only seen them in a single photograph? Or have you talked with them, seen their face from many angles and with many facial expressions? How many of those people would you recognize having only seen their driver's license photo? Even us, the world-renowned best human face recognizers ever, need some help to get the job done. Having a photo of everyone on earth won't fix this problem.

    Basically, you are doomed from the start not only by probability, but also by the handicaps you're starting your system with.

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    The enemies of Democracy are
  59. What about my right to my likeness? by WillSeattle · · Score: 2, Insightful

    As a private (not public) citizen, the use of such face recognition systems inherently means they record my likeness.

    In theory, under time-tested requirements for media recording, they cannot use my likeness without my permission.

    Yet they are.

    I did not grant usage to them, when I walked on the sidewalk. I did not sign a contract granting them usage in a film or TV show.

    They stole my copyright!

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    --- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
    1. Re:What about my right to my likeness? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      1) All face recognition systems currently in use keep no record of images that do not match. Thus they do not "record my likeness" any more than a person watching you walk down the street does.


      2) If you're talking about the database against which matches are made, then your argument is saying "When they arrest me, they have no right to fingerprint me or take my mugshot; those images are copyrighted by me and may not be used without my permission!" Try telling that to the booking officer, and see how far it gets you... (some cops really have no sense of humor!)

  60. Real OOP code for Face-Recognition Problems by WillSeattle · · Score: 1

    Original (false) program
    > face.is_terrorist = TRUE;
    > police.arrest(face.parent);
    > police.beat(face.parent);
    > police.eatDonuts();

    Actual program in use:
    face.is.terrorist = TRUE;
    police.arrest(face.parent);
    drunk.fan.avoid.arrest(face.parent);
    police.shoot(face.parent);
    identity.validate(face.parent) != face.is.terrorist;
    police.coverup(face.parent);
    police.status(murderer.parent);

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    --- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
  61. Ybor City by cleancut · · Score: 1

    I'm new to the Tampa area and just visited Ybor city for the first time yesterday. I noticed the cameras around, but I noticed almost no Police presence. Odd. That said, Ybor City is sort of a dump. Do yourself a favor and stay away.

    1. Re:Ybor City by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ybor is a dump.. But when you go on a Friday or Saturday night the sights do make up for it. A nicer area to check out is Channelside. Nicer crowd and better looking clubs.

  62. Heard of soundex? by symbolic · · Score: 3

    Enter Facex. That's essentially what this face recognition stuff is doing - compiling a profile of a face that it sees, and then checking for other profiles that are similar. Given the multitude of conditions that can affect what it sees (lighting, angle, and facial expression to name a few), it's going to take some very ingenious programming to overcome these influences. Further, I'd love to see the ACLU (or other party) conduct some studies to see just how innaccurate this system is when dealing with other factors - like whether or not someone is wearing sunglasses, whether or not they have a beard and/or moustache, makeup (lipstick, blush, eye shadow), whether or not they're wearing a hat, etc.

    FaceIt, it appears, is an overhyped technology that isn't any where near ready for prime time. And knowing what it's up against, I don't think it ever will be.

  63. heh yeah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    i live about 15mins from Ybor, out here in Brandon, FL.. and as much as Ybor wants not to be, that place is a dump. But the good side is all the fun one can have there :). Last time i went there was for a Fear Factory concert, before the cameras were up. I still just think this is all one big waste of money, with an attempt to please someone, somewhere. They wouldnt bother me, but so far that i heard, there hasnt been 1 arrest made.

  64. ROFL by t_allardyce · · Score: 1

    I for one can't wait to see a camera the next time im at an airport. I will make funny faces as i walk through and laugh as the security guards say "excuse me sir, can you please walk past the camera again" as i hold up the line and say "but why? i already smuggled 50 pounds of explosives onto the plane"

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