Slashdot Mirror
CD/DVD Manufacturers To Support Windows Media
Anonymous Coward writes "Seattle P-I story on MS's latest move towards having their finger in every slice of the content pie. Oh, goody. 'Microsoft Corp. plans to announce today that four DVD makers will incorporate its Windows Media Audio technology into their players, enabling consumers to play CDs and DVDs they compiled using that technology. At the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas, DVD makers Toshiba, Panasonic, Apex Digital Inc. and Shinco, a Chinese manufacturer, will announce plans to support Windows Media Format in some or all of their models this year, said Michael Aldridge, lead product manager for Microsoft's Windows digital media division.'" We've mentioned this before, but there are a few more details now.
Why is MS so bad for thinking of this first? Why didn't Real or Apple think about this? Maybe that's why MS is so successful. Because they have good business people that can think up of new ways to grow the business.
Stop trying to get crap formats to play on DVD!!! Damnit, DVD is for clear crisp quality picture. I will NOT have this technology ruined by idiots who seem to believe it's better to have grainy shitty picture and audio on their television... "OOOooooh, but it's on the television, not the computer monitor... Neeeeeato...." GO TO HELL AND LEAVE MY DVD PLAYER ALONE!
There are gigs and gigs of both pirate and legitimate divx3 and 4 videos out there to be had on IRC, Usenet, FT, and Gnutella.
The only ones who use WMV are corporate entities who don't have anything good to encode anyway...
*sigh*
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
I think that having more formats is a good thing.
Not that I'm an MS fan. "Let the markets decide."
...that this is not a great deal worse than we were before. DVDs have always been the most annoying, closed media around, and theses companies are really trying to prevent any 'unlicensed' players from being able to play these discs.
Okay.. Long term theory here..
Microsoft/media companies get hardware manufacturers to implement wma into most/all dvd/cd player hardware.
Wma is plainly readable on cdrom drives.
Combine this with encrypted redbook tracks and wma media players, and viola...
A set of audio/data cd's that can be played on portable machines, played on dvd/cd players, played on your computer, but can't be ripped into an "open" format..
And yeah i know the encryption would be broken.. But all in all it sounds like a straightforward controlling strategy.. The media corps get the control they want, and microsoft gets a bigger share of a new market..
Once the DRM stuff is cracked (Microsoft encryption -- how hard can it be), we can play the DVD anywhere.
Rio Volt (a portable CD/CDR/MP3 player) already supports Windows Media format.
150 Opening BINARY mode data connection for slashdot.sig (129323052 bytes).
How long until they're adding windows media video support? Since MPEG-2 encrypted with CSS has ben defeated, moving to Microsoft's content control mechanisms sounds like something the MPAA would be for. This would have the fun bonus of giving Microsoft a monopoly on DVD software, and making DVD playing on Linux (excluding the current illegal hacks, which aren't a nice way to experiance the media you payed for; no menus to access lots of the content) even more of a pipe dream.
I have a DVD player with progressive out.
I have no need to replace my DVD player with a new one.
DVD standard is MPEG2. Period. The standard is MPEG 2, and it is set in stone.
The problem that I may have is that all of the "extra" features may be in the windoes format. Argh.
I refuse to buy anything with this crap in it. Damnit, why can't people understand that I don't want Microsoft pervasive into my entire life. They want to be a part of everything... i.e. a little kid with their hands in everything, and they don't like anyone else to play. Well, fine, I won;t buy it. And furthurmore, CmrTaco, you should realize that you put money in those 40 billion dollar coffers when you bought that xbox.
Shame on you.
Blah Blah Blah.
As long as MS hasn't forced these companies into exclusionary contracts (Which would be a bad choice to make given their current anti-trust case), I can't see anything wrong with this initially. Unfortunately, this also ties in well with RIAAs plans to copy protect every CD. Since many DVD players appear to have problems with these, the new CDs can't play on them. However, I remember reading that MS was talking with the labels into licensing WMP such that every copy protected CD would include a second CD with the album as WMP files.
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
We need the corporation to, on a one-to-one basis, support a proprietary format for an open format.
asf *and* ogg (I know the latter is audio-specific... are there Free video formats ?), for example.
This way it will still be possible to give the public to choose between Free Art or blockbusters.
Until then then we could call this a kind of monopoly as we are only given the choice to upgrade hardware that'll at the end not belong to us anymore (this is IMHO the final consequence of such digital dictatorship as this is the only way to forbid hackers to even look at these devices' internals).
Trolling using another account since 2005.
[Shop] : "Yes sir, how can I help you?"
[cust] : "I can't play Terminator IV on my DVD Player!"
[Shop] : "Ah, do you have MSDRM v3.22 installed?"
[cust] : "Erm, in ENGLISH?!?!"
[Shop] : "If you go home, bring in your DVD player, and then leave it here for a week, we'll load the update that you need to play the DVD..."
[cust] : "Erm, OK then. But why does it need an update?"
[Shop] : "Some stupid kids broke the code or something like that..."
[cust] : "Oh dear. Well, thanks. I'll bring in my player later..."
Much time passes...
[cust] : "Here you go, please do that update thingy..."
[Shop] : "Sure thing. That'll be £49.99 please..."
[cust] : (loud and repetitive expletives)
Royalties from Microsoft's DVD licensing deals are "pretty small" compared with the impact the arrangements could have on sales of Microsoft's Windows operating system, Aldridge said.
I doubt this will mean an increase in cost of DVD players. Even though media player format is lame as other's have noted in the past and present, I don't really care since I am not an audiophile. Most people don't have $2K headphones or $10K electrostatic speakers. The old argument about sound quality for average joe is useless. Heck none of my audio equipment costs more than 60 bucks tops.
If it means I can play DVD audio files on multiple devices, than it's all good to me.
Toshiba, Panasonic, Apex Digital Inc. and Shinco make crappy dvd players. Dont buy any of them, get a pioneer instead. (apex jokingly stands for "Anime Products EXcluded")
And as long as vcd is still supported we should have no issues. mpeg-1 will still play, so whats the big deal? eventually wma will be cracked and there will be wma->mpeg and you can burn vcds (and eventually dvds) to your little hearts desire.
no movie producer in their right mind would release video on disk in this format, it isolates too much of the market. Anything i download can be converted.
yawn. this doesnt change anything for me. these arnt the droids your looking for, move along.
no
So, we have DeCSS. Whos up for writing a DeWMA?
Liberty in your lifetime
As I see it, this means extra hardware in the DVD players is required. Probably some form of generic CPU, one fast enough to decode the video. The MPEG2 chip for DVD usually gives you VCD/SVCD/etc for free and MP3 decoding on the side. But WMA/WMV are different beasts that don't use the same schemes, right? (Correct me if I'm wrong..)
So, assuming they put in some form of generic processor for decoding Windows Media formats, what's to stop them (or some other person) from putting in support for all sorts of media formats using that self same processor? Last time I checked my DVD player it didn't have any chips in there fast enough to decode DivX, maybe Microsoft is helping to change that for me.
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
That's even more true now that Ogg Vorbis RC3 is of higher quality than wma and mp3 and mpc, and others, at 128kbit *and* 64kbit.
Yes folks, RC3 is vastly improved over RC2. Give it a try!!
So, like some DVD players can play MP3 CD's, some will be able to play WMA CD's. Not be able to show CD's and DVD's with WMV's on them. Big deal.
That's all the article talked about. They aren't talking about video. So this is nothing new, except for the fact it's on a DVD player, not a MP3 portable.
...that this is going to eventually turn DVD players into another WinModem-ish hardware problem.
I'm too disgusted to go on a rant.... sigh.
/*drunk.. fix later*/
Sigh, Quicktime is fully open (not the source, but it is fully standardized). You can build your own version. In fact, a few open source projects are under way. This only leaves sorenson as a barrier for Linux, which:
1. Is not owned by Apple.
2. Doesn't have to be used. Blame the content-providers for not using an alternative (or the open-source community for not providing a free codec that is a good alternative).
No way you can blame Apple that the content-providers are using a proprietary, closed codec when Quicktime is an open architecture that can easily accomodate new codecs. Why don't you provide and ask content-provider to use a good cross-platform alternative (perhaps Divx 4). This will solve the entire problem.
The Drowned and the Saved - Primo Levi
My Philips 825 (c. 1999?) is flash-upgradable. I've done it, through a process just like the one you describe. I'm sure there are others.
However, I doubt this ever becomes a mainstream way to roll out upgrades. Burning a CD and flashing a new ROM is simply beyond most users.
Nothing but good things from my Toshiba, and my friend loves his Panasonic. And Pioneer? Gimme a break....
So what are we to do, as a community, about the Powers That Be blocking us from content using technological measures? Will someone reverse-engineer the Sorensen codec or write a WMF player for linux? M$ and Apple will rabidly oppose this, and its author would likely be the next Dimitry Skylarov. DVD was just the tip of the iceberg. Heck, it's even taken 2-3 years to get a reasonable HTML viewer, while M$ and Netscrape embraced and extended the standard over and over.
But from the OSS side of the fence, we don't have the muscle, and aren't organized enough to push our codecs into the forefront. Who, exactly, will negotiate the exclusive contract getting movie trailers in DivX? Or books on tape in Ogg Vorbis?
It seems the solution isn't creating standards and codified specifications either. We can beat our drum over and over about "standards", but often, standards don't negotiate contracts for themselves. Standards don't magically get chosen by media execs just because they're better. Formats get chosen because there's a nosy M$ sales guy with a bad tie in the dumb exec's office every day for a month. Which OSS philanthropist wants that job?
Are we doomed forever to have all the power, but none of the content?
--Bob
1^2=1; (-1)^2=1; 1^2=(-1)^2; 1=-1; 1=0.
I know you'll never believe this coming from an anti-DMCA type like me, but I kinda like these news. The reason is this: I think that the RIAA/MPAA/whatever are preparing themselves for a VERY harsh wake-up when they find out that Microsoft cares zero-nilch-nada-nothing about their interests. Microsoft's aim is market dominance and experience shows that it can be obtained much more readily by massive availability of stuff and not massive control. I predict that (obviously) the WMP formats will be cracked (didn't it already happen?) and Microsoft will very gladly look the other way while tons of pirated stuff get exchanged in WMP format only playable on Windows or Microsoft-licensed players. They'll invest 5% of the huge profits they make in PR towards the aforementioned RIMPAA, who will actually learn that Microsoft are the very best in security/content protection and whatever other solution will be worse.
Global result: for the price of a windows license and some gigs of disk the users get unlimited access to (pirated) content. Users are happy. Microsoft is happy. RIAA/MPAA are screwed.
It'll be fun to watch.....
I agree! If it has to be one of these formats, windows media is the most stable and reliable.
I can just see my player running on REAL. It'd play have them movie and then terminate, only to make me power off and on my player before REAL will open again to play the rest of the movie!!!
Sorry, I think MS wins on this one.
Mike @ The Geek Pub. Let's Make Stuff!
You Should Not Be Here
~Philly
I don't really _hate_ to say it, but isn't this a bit of "too little, too late"? Everyone who's at least marginally interested has a DVD player already, and I'm not really seeing the huge need by consumers for another DVD player. My parents have one, my friends all have one, my inlaws got one last year, etc, etc. I can't imagine that, by the time these things are available, that it'll be more than a niche thing.
That being said, give it 10 years. Microsoft might be able to 0wn it, but considering that it's Apex that's looking into it, I think it's more of a "geek enabler" thing than anything else.
"Sometimes a woman is a kind of religion, she can save your soul & set you free from all your sins" - Bad Examples
I've got a Panasonic DVD player that plays MP3's? So, now I can get one that plays WMA too? Big whoop. Do I ever use the MP3 capability? No. Would I ever burn a windows media thingy to disk to watch it on TV in really shitty quality? No.
This is nothing. What is much bigger is next year when M$ comes out with their supercalifragilistic-Xbox-alidocious homestation. At that point, I figure I need two components. One receiver. One UltimateTV/DirecTV/DVD/Xbox/CD-player/PC.
Oh, yeah and my Playstation 2 for Grand Theft Auto III.
Likewise, I expect that there will be very few WMA or WMF DVDs. And if there are, we'll just refuse to buy them... or buy them and return them to demonstrate our dissatisfaction more clearly. Much like the copy-protected CDs.
Really, there's a large installed base of standard DVD players, and very little incentive to get a WM* compatible one. I expect there will be very few such disks.
Judebert
We're out of dynamite. What we need is a plan!
For geek dads: Contraction Timer
Seattle P-I story on MS's latest move towards having their finger in every slice of the content pie.
The way the slashdot community fights with Microsoft is funny, and has quite a pattern. D'o whatever it takes' is generally the big picture. It isn't about crappy software lately, because the government saw some monopoly qualities, that's what slashdot looks into heavily. The truth is, most people that use linux exclusively hasn't even tried Win2K, which has yet to crash or bluescreen on me. Netscape on linux, and mozilla on linux crashes more than anything on win2k for me. But I'm talking to closed minds here.
Its going to be funny when the monopoly talks die down and people start attacking MS's quality to find its stronger than the last time they used it, so their arguements are moot. Sure, XP has bugs (all new OS's do. Try and tell me that Linux 1.0 didn't crash or have bugs.), and X-Box has its share, but it is the first console released under MS's name. But by the time the monopoly craze goes away, I think you'll be surprised at where MS will be.
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
Ugh! VCR... ;-)
Some of my friends are still shocked to find that I don't own a VCR.
"Hey, I'll bring over that movie and...damnit! You don't have a VCR! What's your problem?!?"
Thankfully, I didn't buy any movies until I got a DVD player, and Tivo/UltimateTV has really eliminated the need for any VCR as far as I'm concerned.
Geek propaganda engine Slashdot posts it's 3,651st duplicate story. Come on guys, it's a new year... isn't there anything new to talk about yet?
Why is it that every CD/DVD player that supports *.mp3 or *.ogg is celebrated because but every player that will now support *.wmf is flamed. Let's face it, there is demand for *.wmf support, so why would manufacturers not support it.
Why not have players that support many different formats. How about a convercence box that will play divx, dvd, mp3, quicktime, ogg, and wmf.
I can encode mp3's at 320kbps on my XP box at home. I just use the software that came with my audigy. There are plenty of crippled MP3 programs out there. You just have to find a good one.
Sometimes I have to stop myself. While the fact that M$ has managed to twist the arms of hardware manufactures to spend money on inferior "standards" that won't work tomorow, and the implications of this are ominous, the reality today is not so bad. Do I really need the kinds of canned crap the RIAA puts out? I have not bought a non local CD in years. Do I really need a computer to look at crappy movies? On the rare occasion a movie is worth seeing, I go watch it in a theater.
The implications are the things to worry about, not the content. Worry about your ability to publish in a format that you can share with others. Isn't it more important to share pictures of your wedding with your friends and family than it is to show "Shreck"? How about your ability to publish ordinary papers? Worry about your ability to share published works in a public library. Do we really want to hoard information that way, so that it's pay per play or nothing? Isn't it more important that children and adults can research questions they have at a public library than it is for you to be able to read the latest pulp fiction? It is important to realize that the "content" control we see being born here is comming from the bassest of publishers, and stop the practice before it becomes universal practice. We must also work to make sure we can continue to publish on the internet.
Exercise your own power and refuse to publish in inferior, non free formats. Creating the financial incentive for hardware makers to respect your interests is just as easy as that. People who buy these new players are going to get burnt when WMA changes two years from now. The makers of those devices are going to get a big black eye from it. Don't you think that part of the tech slowdown comes from user uncertianty created by nothing M$ working right? It hurts to screw up. Meanwhile, my png, ogg mpegs and what not will work the same.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Considering how poorly most DVD players support MP3 CDs, maybe this will be a good thing. We all know how militant Microsoft is about support their feature set fully. I've never seen a DVD player that supports long file names, let alone ID3 tags. Perhaps when Microsoft forces hardware manufacturers to support the WMA format fully, they'll finally write the microcode to display full song information.
And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
Yea, you can talk about the "gigs and gigs" of DiVX out there...heck, you could even move on and talk about the terabytes upon terabytes upon terabytes of MP3s as well.
It doesn't matter. $$ wins. TKO. Go to jail. Fatality.
"Open standards" mean nothing to businesses.
--Geek walks into Sony's board room.
CEO: "What should we support with our CD player?"
Geek: "MP3."
CEO: "Why?"
Geek: "Because everyone uses it."
CEO: "So it's not ours to control?"
Geek: --Laughs and snorts
CEO: "Leave and never come back."
--Bill Gates walks into Sony's board room.
CEO: "What should we support with our CD player?"
Bill: "WMA."
CEO: "Why?"
Bill: "It's hard to pirate. You save $$."
CEO: "Also?"
Bill: "New technology. People have it, you play it. You get $$."
CEO: "And?"
Bill: --Dumps shitload of money on boardroom table.
CEO: "Okay then."
Corporations won't be able to control DiVX. Corporations won't be able to control MP3. But they can control WMA, since WMA is owned by one of their fellow corporations. It doesn't matter how widely it's used. What matters is how much $$ is to be made.
I didn't bother to read all of the messages here but it looks like a lot of knee jerking going on...
Microsoft is still trying to compete with mp3. mp3 is ubiquitous, from freely available rippers to file sharing networks to portable players to home audio equipment to car stereos, you can now obtain, burn and listen to mp3s anywhere. Why should Joe Schmoe use WMA instead of mp3 when WMA is not supported on the home/car/portable players?
Availability is the biggest immediate hurdle WMA faces if Microsoft is to get the labels on board to use their format. Then we can see if the masses take to jumping through expected DRM hoops.
So M$ has convinced hardware makers to spend extra money supporting an inferior media format for auidio. The inferior media format has provisions for inferior video too, hmmm. Do you think it will take that long for M$ to push that too if they have not already?
Gee Bill, that's almost as bad as that book you wrote about the road ahead.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Go into a national retailer and buy a computer with Linux on it (from the shop) and I might see your point.
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
"This would have the fun bonus of giving Microsoft a monopoly on DVD software"
The entertainment industry is NOT going to give control of media formats to Microsoft. The entertainment industry rightfully fears Microsoft and is very careful to control MS influence. Remember, MS is fighting SSSCA and similar proposals. Besides, the entertainment industry already has a monopoly on DVD software (the format). IF the industry wanted this, why would MS go to the hardware manufacturers?
"This would have the fun bonus of giving Microsoft a monopoly on DVD software, and making DVD playing on Linux (excluding the current illegal hacks, which aren't a nice way to experiance the media you payed for; no menus to access lots of the content) even more of a pipe dream."
Please. All this does is add WMV and WMA support to DVD players. It is actually a brilliant move on MS' part because it allows consumers to create "DVD quality" audio and video on CD. Rather than require consumers to buy expensive DVD burners, MS allows normal CD burners to create this content. This makes MS look good in the eyes of the consumers by decreasing their costs, while hiding the fact that pro level gear software for A/V creation is absent from MS software.
If such a system is picked up by consumers, MS may be able to bargain for other industries to adopt WMA/WMV, but the entertainment industry is not going to change DVD formats. They've wasted a lot of time already and DVDs are finally starting to take off. No, it'll likely be streaming media, corporate promos and the like that will be switching to MS formats.
Ironically, given the consumer focus, most content will likely be warez and porn.
This is not entirely a bad thing. My DVD player supports DVDs as well as VCDs, Music CDs, and MP3s. This is just one more format to include on a DVD. It's providing users with another format to listen to media with.
I'm not all for Microsoft either and hate their business practices and motivation to squash open source as much as the next guy, but too /.'ers are too close-minded toward Microsoft because they are Microsoft.
It's not like Microsoft will strengthen their stranglehold on companies by including another format. It's still up to the content providers what format they use. And with cross-platform players and compilers out there for getting Windows codecs to work on linux, it's not anyone can complain that they can't play WMA files.
omg that's horrible... you want a spell checker too!
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
Doesnt matter where you buy your hardware, you can put whatever software you want on it. Its up to you. The fact that an OS comes pre-installed is a convenience, not a requirement. I guess I am from the old camp of "computers arent toasters".
The article, as I initially saw it, just said Windows Media. I missed the Audio bit.
In any case, this doesn't change my assertion. An MPEG decoder chip that will play MP3's will NOT play WMA's. Therefore some other form of processor is needed to decode and play them.
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
This move isn't about now; it's about the future. MS is betting that the SSSCA (or whatever) gets passed and suddenly manufacturers will be compelled to drop all formats that don't contain DRM. And, since WMA is DRM ready, it will be the natural choice, since the equipment manufacturers will have it licensed already. Likewise, the equipment folks are hedging their bets against SSSCA, licensing WMA now so they'll have it available when the hammer falls.
I'll bet the licensing is a sweet deal too: right now the fee's are either $0 or nominal, which MS can view as a loss leader. Thenn SSSCA passes and whammo - licensing fees skyrocket, and the manufacturer's just start charging $10 more per unit.
Here's the real beauty of the scheme: Let's say some smart guy figures "Hey, I just won't upgrade Media Player to the latest copy-protection-mandatory version. Fine for a while, and then Mr. Smartguy clicks on Windows Update and sees CRITAL UPDATE - SECURITY RELATED!!! and he scrambles to download it. And hidden beside the fix to the security hole of the week is a Media player update. MS previewed this tactic with the IE5.5 "security" update that wiped out plug-ins as well.
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
You make a valid point, but I have one correction:
The elimination of Netscape-style plug-ins was a security concern. Netscape-style plug-ins are simply DLLs loaded with LoadLibrary(...) that execute code with no protection in mind, such as SSL Object Signing (Microsoft's branded Authenticode). By getting rid of that layer, they closed another hole for crackers to insert potentially harmful code. With ActiveX, users (at least, those that understand signed controls or at least read the dialog that pops up) have the security of signed code, such as the ActiveX wrapper for QuickTime. This way, at least users are "warned" that the control is safe to download. You don't get this option with DLLs with a model like Netscape-style plug-ins.
Just FYI. I do get your point about the other, though. I pray that the SSSCA does not pass. Too few people have too much money already!
1. To all the people who are complaining that WMA is a proprietary format: So is DVD.
2. To the people who say no consumer would want this: go to a store and look at how many portable devices there are now that play MP3 and/or WMA files. As a consumer, I'd be quite pleased if the CDs I burn for my RioVolt would play in my home CD or DVD player. WMA is a better format than MP3, in both quality and space taken. Of course consumers will want it.
3. To the people pointing out that WMA supports rights management: duh!
...that was a reference to the easter-egged Apex DVD players that display "You Should Not Be Here" (in all CAPS, stupid lameness filter!) on the bottom of the secret option screen that lets you pick your region, disable Macrovision, etc.
I never heard about the IE4 beta thing, but that's amusing as well.
~Philly
So, if you contact Apple, they will say "Don't talk to us, we don't own it, talk to Sorenson."
And if you talk to Sorenson, they will say "We'd LOVE to license it to you, really we would, but we cannot without Apple's approval, go talk to them".
So why not arrange a three-way conference call among the three legal departments? On most telephone exchanges, it's as easy as click, dial, click, discuss terms.
That is, unless Sorenson is right, and (as rumored) Microsoft is StrongARMing Apple with terms such as "if you release QuickTime for Linux, we discontinue Office for Mac."
Will I retire or break 10K?
The key players IMHO.
Sony, Pioneer, Kenwood. These are the crem de la crem of Home Audio gear (well, the stuff that doesn't require a 5 digit loan before the decimal) and their names weren't listed.
Just the lower end stuff was. Apex, Panasonic, Toshiba.
I can't imagine the MPAA and RIAA wanting Microsoft to get into their camp. Unless they're thinking they'll help secure up so people can copy it.
They must not have looked at the Windows XP copy protection scheme.
As a rock-in-roll Physicist once said, No matter where you go, there you are.
Doesnt matter where you buy your hardware, you can put whatever software you want on it. Its up to you.
OK, so tell me which national computer store chain I can walk into and buy a computer without paying Microsoft for software that I will never use.
Will I retire or break 10K?