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Belgium: A Computer in Every Home
joost writes "In an article published online by Belgian newspaper 'Het Nieuwsblad' (sorry only a dutch link), Belgian minister Miss Laurette Onkelinx speaks about her plan to provide every Belgian household with a computer. The minister is (amongst other things) responsible for 'equality' and therefore pushes the plan to provide the less fortunate with a pc. In the same article, she said she already started talking to Compaq for the hardware and Microsoft for the OS. Belgian Linux users are starting a campaign to petition Miss Onkelinx's departement, explaining their concern about the decision, and advising to look towards linux for an alternative.(more on be.comp.os.linux) You too can send an email by clicking here."
Yeah it's free, and a great server OS.
But it's desktop side is not there YET.
Not that I'm suggesting Windows, or MacOS, but Linux?
Price just isn't a big as factor as everyone here thinks. I'm in on purchasing for a major university. What we spend on our site license of EVERY MS prodoct per year is a FRACTION (4% to be exact) of what we spend on new hardware for our labs each year...Switching to linux would not save us much at all, and oh the headaches.
for linux on the desktop, and equality in technology, if only they would use linux.
Don't get me wrong, linux is a great OS, BUT do you seriously think it's ready for deploying on a large scale as a general desktop?
What about apps?
Equality in technology?
The world is full of inequalities - what makes you think that linux is the key to the balance of power.
There always has been [and probably always will be] inequality. Can you give me an example of a 'balanced' industry?!
Seriously, how can you propose to take a population as large as Belgium and introduce them to linux, which most reasonable people have already concluded cant match M$ on the desktop. Anyone want to volunteer to do tech support for that?
To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
--E.C. Stanton
... But Universities buy state of the art hardware. I imagine that the hardware being purchased for this purpose will be "Discount hardware". Im sure they arent intrested in putting a Sparc Station in every home. So in this case Licences will be a much larger portion of the cost. Also, im sure even if you work for a big 10, there are more people to worry about than at your University.
Im not here now... Im out KILLING pepperoni
It sounds to me like the budget has already been ironed out and that the budget for these PC's includes a provision for Windows. If so, can we stop for a minute and think about the GOOD things that come out of this?
-- Every person in this country gets access to a computer that they might not have had at all. They get Internet access, which provides them with a wealth of new information. Some of them will pursue computer-related jobs that wouldn't have otherwise. In general, the country will benefit from this.
So why is it necessary to post an article on Slashdot basically asking people to flood this government with email complaining about Microsoft? Can we leave well enough alone and accept that the more computer-literate people there are, the better our industry benefits as a whole? These people will buy our hardware. They will visit our websites. They might even patronize Slashdot. This is a good thing.
It's sad, really, to see what should have been a "look what this great country is doing!" article turn into a pro-Linux, anti-Microsoft rant. I'd much rather see Slashdot readers take their time to go volunteer computer training or to build hardware and install software at a local school than to see Slashdot readers criticize a country for what is, in the long run, an incredibly Good Thing.
Simpli - Your source for San Jose dedicated servers and colocation!
It'd be swell if they used Linux, but only Windows and Mac are really feasible for something like this (and not even Mac so much because of price). Elderly Belgian women using a computer for the first time would receive one under this plan. They need something cheap and easy to use, that does their basic stuff. As much as I dislike Windows, an inexperienced person would be able to pick that up much faster than Linux, and has little need for Linux's power features.
Luckily for those of you who don't want free market share given to MS, socialist plans like this are doomed to failure anyway.
The goatse guy for president. Win one for the gaper!
Belgium is one of those openly socialist countries, like the United States, that doesn't use the word "socialist" because of the generally bad reputation that the word brings.
Instead, they use words like "equality" with the meaning of "equal outcome" rather than just "equal under the law." Their tax rates are very high, and as long as people go along with what the government programs provide, people are "happy" the same way that worker ants are "happy".
Problems occur in such a situation if you introduce too much choice. This leads to un-equal outcomes, resentment or resistance to one-size-fits-all government programs, and increasing unease since someone always feels "left out" because their outcome wasn't as good, in their opinion, as someone elses.
I really hope this program does not come to pass. 25 years ago, France decided to do this same thing, with their Mintel program. Its 300 baud command line time sharing system was advanced, at the time, but France was left in the toilet as the rest of the world developed graphical applications and interfaces, distributed information sources and efficient IP networks.
However, the only cost to government is the rare risk that a politician might not get re-elected. There is no other "cost", since they spend other peoples money. For that reason, the politicians of today may very well repeat the Mintel disaster simply because it looks good in time for the next election. Everything else is secondary.
Bob-
The Ludwig von Mises Institute. The reasoning individuals economics
I'm all for making computers affordable,
but if people don't want one enough to get one, what are they going to do when it gets pushed through their door?
I can see Eastern Europe filling up with these units.
'There is a Light that never goes out.'
Windows is "easy" for many because it's what they are used to. It's not intuitive (Click on "Start" button to shut down machine is not intuitive or "easy) as people keep making it seem to be.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
You know, there seems to be an increasingly strong contingent of people of the "Let's think rationally. Windows is probably the best choice here" people. Perhaps there is some bitterness amongst the faithful?
Why not linux? the average home user who doesn't know crap about a computer is going to have just as hard a time with WinXP as with Mandrake setup for the home user (i.e. 1 desktop environment, 1 mailer, 1 browser, etc). Heck, maybe some of the new imacs. What I am saying is that the avergae user does not need office, they need a small word processor. They do not need exchange, they need a mail client that can do pop and recieve attachments.
I say go for it. I suggest mandrake because it's from that continent. Suse might be good as well, but i've had more experience with Mandrake.
-- Who is the bigger fool? The fool or the fool who follows him? --
Predictably, this article generated a storm of posts about how Linux isn't ready for this, or Linux would confuse users, or Windows is better supported or...
However, when you read the actual, detailed arguments about why Linux is a bad choice for this project they boil down to two things: Linux is too hard to install and there aren't enough people around who know how to use it.
In the first case, do you really think the Belgian government is going to ship each user a PC without any software on it, and a pile of CDs to install? Why don't they just ship a pile of components, while they're at it? The government is going to buy a whole bunch of identical machines pre-installed with some idential collection of software, all configured so it will run right out of the box. Whether Linux is hard or easy to install isn't really all that relevant, since the users won't have to install it. And, unlike Windows 9x systems that experience an "entropy" effect whereby they gradually become less and less usable until finally you have to reinstall them, Linux boxes tend to run forever.
Second, in an environment filled with Linux boxes, how long do you think it'll be before the average person can call the neighbor kid over to fix any problems? Not long at all. On well-known hardware, with a nice GUI installed Linux isn't any harder to use than Windows, it's just *different* (and not really all that much different). Not to mention the fact that if the Belgian government took all of that cash that they were going to spend on Windows and Office licenses and instead spent it on setting up a support infrastructure for those machines, the net result would probably be *better* support.
There are also some really significant advantages to free software in this situation. The largest one is the application software available. What? Absolutely. Yes, there is more software available for Windows machines, but there is more *free* software available for Linux. Both environments include the most basic stuff by default; browser, e-mail client and multimedia player. Unless you buy Office for each machine ($$) Windows doesn't have a word processor, spreadsheet, etc. Unless you buy Quicken or Money for each machine, no personal accounting system. MS Paint hardly counts as an image editing program.
A pre-installed Linux box with KDE, an office suite (StarOffice would be ideal, I'll bet Sun would give them free licenses) and the standard collection of packages that come with every distro would provide a low-cost, easy to support solution that does pretty much everything a basic user needs right out of the box. No command lines, no arcane syntax -- except for the kids who have tons of time to invest in learning how this thing ticks, and what better system could an up-and-coming techie have? (And don't give me that "They should have a Windows box because that's what they'll use in the workplace" crap. What they'll use in the workplace will change five times before they get there, and it will be deep understanding of how one system fundamentally works under the covers that will translate well and stand them in good stead, not superficial knowledge of which buttons to click. Hell, I grew up on a Timex Sinclar 1000, a TI-99/4A, a Commodore 64 and an Atari 520ST.)
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
I think the poster has a perfectly valid point. Unless the e-mail address is intended for receiving huge amounts of e-mail, it IS inconsiderate to post it on the front page of a news site that gets several hundred thousand viewers a day.
Step back a second and consider what is being proposed. *Every home* in Belgium would have a machine, which by default runs OS N. (I'd use "X" as my variable but that's taken. :-) )
Under these circumstances, damn near every objection raised to every OS I've seen mentioned are meaningless. If this went through, it would be a different world.
So OS N has some rough spots. So what? You neighbors all have OS N too. Every kid on the block has been exposed to OS N. A country full of people are working on helping each other learn the OS and "making it go".
Frankly, the discussion boils down to ONLY one issue, and that's "Proprietary or open?" And the answer is clear: Open.
A proprietary OS puts an entire country at the mercy of the vendor. While the country will certainly have a lot of "pull", you can bet that the marketing department of the company is going to get more and more brazen over time, and they DON'T have your best interests at heart.
An Open OS, be it Linux, FreeBSD, or whatever, imposes nothing on Belgium. Certainly if Belgium is going to put a computer in every home, they can afford to make their own distro, which can be as easy or as hard to use as they want, even to the TiVo extreme.
Everything changes when you're talking about a country in which every person you meet on the street has had experience with the OS you're using. (God knows Windows isn't the dream it's being portrayed as... or haven't you helped a new person learn Windows lately?)
Upshot: A proprietary OS will meet the needs of the developing company. An open OS meets the needs of Belgium. The choice is clear. Old arguments are irrelevant. Willingly selling an entire country into vendor-lockin is analogous to selling Manhatten Island for the proverbial handful of glass beads.
Look, I live in the Central American country of Panama. I was born here and have dedicated a lot of time to understanding why third world countries are what they are (for better or worse).
Where I live, people are generally quick to accept technology, and like everywhere else, it has become a symbol of status. The guy that _tries_ to wash your windshield in a streetlight has a pre-paid cellphone here. Hell, ALL cellphone accessories are sold AT streetlights here. There are entire towns where houses are put together, rather than built, using materials and methods I still cannot comprehend, boldly defying conventional wisdom and the laws of physics, and yet they all have 2-3 25"+ TV sets, Big Stereo equipment, VHS, one generation old video game systems and more. Some even have satellite TV. We're talking about people that make $200-$500/month. And that's household income.
And yet I'm of the opinion that putting a computer in every home would not solve the problem of the so called digital divide, in fact, I think it would make it worse. Here's my rationale:
If a computer was given for free to every person in my country that can't (or won't) afford one, more than 95% of the people would break it, put it away, sell it (if market price doesn't go down too much), and in general, not value them for what they're worth (economically and intelectually). There are a lot of legitimate cases where people really need one and can't afford it, but even those would probably not value them as much as if they had worked and saved money for their own.
Sure, some 5% of the people would change their lives by having access to a computer, learning how to use it, hooking up to the Intenret an having access to all the information that's available (the good AND the bad which forces you to develop critical thinking). After all, this is similar to what happened to me when my parents won $10,000 in the lottery and bought me a $2,000 PC 10 years ago (now I have a consulting firm and i'm doing pretty well, thank you).
The problem is, you would still have a mayority that not only can't but won't use a computer, and a minority that does. Digital Divide anyone? Only this time it's not economically based, but intelectually based.
It's all a cultural problem. Most people don't use computers because they don't know how good it would be for them, for their carriers, for developing critical thinking, for improving their competitivenes (professionally), for having access to much more information, for improving productivity, etc.
This is not very different from someone giving you a supersonic jet for free, and telling you it's much better than your Honda Civic. There isn't much I can do with a supersonic jet to be honest, I see no reason to learn to fly if I can get around with my Jetta pretty well. Besides, they say learning to fly is very very hard, so why waste my time? Well, maybe I could sell that Jet to someone that does fly!
I believe the only way to actually close the Digital Divide (God, I hate clichés) is to improve the cultural level of developing populations, promote critical thinking, make people understand that they have to "work for it", and that in the end it's worth it (what capitalism is based on), and THEN let them BUY computers real cheap. Never give them away.
There's this little anectdote I want to share before I wrap this up. About 30 years ago there was this military dictator in Panama. A guy called Torrijos. Most people agree he was a pretty cool guy. You've probably heard that name if you're older than 20 and know a bit of history. Anyways, he used to give food and money away to people in a provice called Colon, the second largest city here. After a very short while, they got used to getting everything for free, and just adored the guy. Torrijos died in 1981 (they say it was Noriega, but who knows...)
Three years ago we were going to build an earth station in Colon, wire the area with fiber optics, provide local ISP service, etc. I interviewed over 40 Colon residents for different low level possitions. Nobody would work after 5PM (even when you pay the extra hours). The few we actually hired, would never, ever show up on time for work, and when they did you could still smell the alcohol. We decided to close the shop very quickly. Last week, MONADESCO (Colon Unemployed Movement) was barricading the streets of Colon. They want Jobs (as long as they don't have to work). They want food. They want money. You wanna give these guys free computers? right.
There are two kinds of people in the world: Those with good memory.
The basic guidelines that we all need to follow for sending email supporting Linux, or any other open source software are simple.
We must be courteous and kind.
NO FLAMES, this hurts their perception of the type of person that uses open source software.
Try to state things in a way that they'll understand. They need to see that Linux is a viable alternative for public use if it's implemented correctly.
Just use common sense, and don't say anything stupid.
This is unfortunately true - despite huge gains in ease-of-use, Linux is still not ready for my grandma.
My Grandma has no problem with it. I find I do a lot *less* maintenance on her computer since I switched her over. Well, actually, I find I do none. From her point of view it's pretty much the same as it always was: click this icon for e-mail, this one to type letters, this one to work on your genealogy...
The only way that I can see your Grandma would have a hard time with Linux is if she was middling-competent with Windows, i.e. able to install and remove software, change configuration options, etc.
Linux is easier for experts, the same level of difficulty for the clueless and somewhat harder for the intermediate user, IMO.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
A politician trying to score. Please tell her that she has to renew her investment every 3 years.
Btw. she is a representative of the poorer, socialist walloon region in Belgium. She's trying to dig up some federal money for her own region: this will never happen!
In order to evaluate the proposal to give away free computers to everyone, one has to know one or two things about Belgium.
First (and hopefully commonly known) Belgium is divided in two parts, one part speaking Dutch (5.5 million inhabitants), and another part speaking French (4.5 million inhabitants).
Second: the Dutch part is economically doing a great deal better than the French part. This is true when you evaluate on number of unemployed people, average wages, ...
Third: There have been socialists in our government for the last 50 years or so. Hence there is a lot of protection for the 'needy'. For example: Belgium has just about the highest income-tax in Europe (to startle some Americans: I (and my wife) pay 55% taxes on our income. Another example: Belgium has the highest rate of people getting money from government compared to working people. A staggering 103 people getting unemployment, disability, pension, ... per 100 working people. For comparison: France has 90/100, US has 60/100.
Last: As people are most concerned about themselves (this merrits a '-1 obvious') the 103 vote socialist to get more money/computers/free healthcare/whatever from the government. The 100 vote liberal (or central Christian) to pay less taxes.
Minister Onckelinckx is, as you may have gathered by now, a member of the socialist party of the French speaking part of Belgium. Her proposal is therefore perhaps great for the people that vote for her, but it obviously isn't for those (like me) that have to pay the bills.
On a side note: I wouldn't be at all surprised if that would turn out to be 'Pay the Bill'.
This proposal will eventually be burried, like so many other proposals from our ministers. A green party minister once suggested to close our national airport at night because of noise-problems. It's like all ministers agreed to each get a week in which they can try to step into the light by making the silliest possible suggestions. I'd suggest not paying too much attention to it.
I have a photographic memory for numbers. I know almost a hundred of them.
Wout,
please note that me and my family relied on public assistance in the past (unfortunately). We never voted for socialists. Also, there are a lot of working people who vote for socialists.
I think your opinion is full of manicheism. the Dutch part is economically doing a great deal better than the French part mmh yes but what's the point ? The region of Liège is doing better than the region of Charleroi, the region of Brussels (french speaking at 80 pc) is doing better than some places in the dutch part and the dutch part is doing better than a lot of places in Europe (congratulations).
So what's the point of comparing linguistic regions on an economic basis ? Maybe the propaganda of some political people works in a way. What is funny is that some (all ?) of them want brussels as the capital of Vlaanderen. Looks like some french speaking people are necessary anyway.
All in all, I also think that some people are cheating on the welfare state and it is also possible that there are more of them in the french speaking side of the country (though some do not speak french). BUT I REFUSE THAT ANY CITIZEN CAN BE PUT IN A CATEGORY BECAUSE OF HIS LANGUAGE OR ETHNICS OR RELIGION, etc. More precisely, I consider stupid the opinions that "unemployed people are lazy", "walloons are lazy" and so on.
Concerning the silly suggestion concerning the airport, I suppose you do not live in Zaventem.
Men are born ignorant, not stupid; they are made stupid by education. Bertrand Russel
I'm all for free software just as you are, but I would never advocate sticking Debian on computers for people who have never had a computer before.
Actually those who have never used a computer before will have fewer issues than people who have used a different computer before.
If you want Linux on these computers, try the more user-friendly distros like Mandrake or SuSE. The latter now automatically sets up TV cards on the initial install.
This simply dosn't follow. Since installation isn't a user task in the first place.
Thanks a lot for this comment about manicheism!
If you are looking for divides between two communities, you will indeed find them and be able to emphathize them; make statistics about people crossing red lights in Kruishoutem, Dilbeek and Verviers and you will likely find big differences in behaviour, proving you right that one community is brilliant/hard-working and the other is lazy or whatever.
Yes, my native language is French, and no I don't vote socialist or depend on social security and yes I pay for the social security of people poorer than I, and yes I speak good Dutch as well.
Language just is not the problem. The problem with this project is that it will likely cost much more than just the PC and the OS (whose cost already is objectable). It would be a much better idea to offer computer training (or whatever other kind of training) to anyone who wishes. This would mean less money better spent than offering money-convertible goods to everyone. The lazy will not take the training and will not cost anything to the government while the most incompetent of all lazy jerks would never refuse the PC.
My 2 eurocents.
most companies (i'm talking non-tech here) run windows, and not knowing the OS would be serious hindrance to these people finding a job.
The jobs these people care about are in Belgium ! How does ceding a significant percentage of the country's total GDP to Microsoft aid Belgium ?!
--Lawrence Lessig for Congress!