Slashdot Mirror
Free The TA Source Code
JFL writes " A petition to request that the Total Annihilation source code's current owner, Infogrames, release the code into the public domain is currently in full swing over at the French site TA Forever.
" I recently picked up TA again, and played around with it - while the graphics are looking a bit dated, the design for the system is great - a very extensible design system, and one that you could build some interesting environments on top of. The use of height is something that was, and to a certain extent, still far ahead of other RTS ? games.
Who here will actually use the source code that is going to sign the petition? You are going to act like you will, but once you see the source you are going to say "yes.. it is open now".
Then tommorow you will forget that anything happened. Not trying to be flame bait, but that is just how I see it.
At least give them something of value for it.
If the code belongs to a small group of individuals, offer to pay them or exchange services (like web design or web hosting?) to the people who own it. Help them advertise themselves and start a new business for themselves.
There is little tolerance for email petitions and other such forms of protest in this day and age. Few can afford to be generous.
Goat sex free since 2001
I don't get why people want this specific game released?
If you're going to make such a fuss over this game, why not sign petitions to get Unreal Tournament's source released? It's just as old as this game.
Why doesn't anyone make a fuss for the laundry list of games that no one generates profit from anymore?
In case you're wondering, you can still buy this game in the stores, so it's still generating profit for the company(albiet marginal profit).
The TA site says the deadliine for the petition was 30th December 2001.
Oops.
Hogsback
IMO, the only reason TA isn't considered to be the BEST RTS game created is because it was overshadowed by a much more hyped and anticipated game, Starcraft.
-- Dan
IANAL, but public domain software has several legal issues that open the originator of the code to legal liability. It may prove prudent to request that they license their code under the BSD or GPL licenses, which limit liability.
Although I can't go into details (still under NDA after 6 years technically), we got bitten by this at a large software house not so long ago. Basically, some of our examples in the documentation were marked as "public domain" software and a third party began to redistribute the examples in binary form with added graphical interfaces. It turned out of the developers of this GUI had written his code on another company's time, and that company decided to sue us. Since there was no limitation of liability in our distributed source code, our lawyers had a harder time justifying our position.
Don't underestimate the bit of a license that goes something like this:
THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE REGENTS AND CONTRIBUTORS ``AS IS'' AND
ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE
IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE
ARE DISCLAIMED.
Asking Infogrames to "public domain" their source code is, in my opinion, uninformed and irresponsible.
Sadly... I very much doubt this effort will result in the TA source code being released to the public. Whilst the source code probably isn't much use to Infogrames anymore, they have no reason to release it.
Perhaps this being posted on Slashdot will conjure up enough momentum to sway Infogrames into releasing it, but if you look at the petition it's quite apparrent that it's not going anywhere really fast with comments like "FREE THE DAMN CODE NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" and "AHHH!!! FrEe ThE DaMn CoDe MaN!!!!".
It's not much of a convincing argument and I hate to sound negative but this seems like a lost cause. Infogrames would only ever release the source code out of good will, and unfortunately good will is something that large companies inherently lack (even Philips with their fight against copy protection have a motive other than good will).
Either way, I'm off to sign the petition... at least only good can come from at least trying!
What TA always needed was a better AI. I can almost always crush 3 AIs on hard on just about any map (I did eventually win on Seven Islands, but that took forever), but that's because the computer is relatively stupid in how it plays. And since I usually just play the computer (the only person I know who likes TA doesn't like to play computer games made later than 1985), I never get any better and usually get crushed when I do find a person to play.
:)
If they opened the code and someone wrote a better AI, that would kick ass! (mine, specifically
"Save the whales, feed the hungry, free the mallocs" -- author unknown
As futile as it may sound, it is important for us all to contact our federal representatives and urge them to provide tax credits to companies when they release open source software. That would be a very good way to swing the economic incentives in our favor, and possibly even help out struggling OSS companies like Caldera and SGI.
uncle isaac
Gamespot.com has this nice feature story on Total Annihilation. Light reading and thorough. The focus here is mainly on the designer Chris Taylor.
You know, even if the source code isn't released, Total Annihilation runs damn near perfectly under current WINE vintages.
I love this game, and I'm extremely glad I can run it in X. If you've never played it (and you run Linux), head to Electronics Boutique. You can find it on the shelf for about $4.99 last time I saw it. Then download, compile, and configure WINE, run TA setup, and voila! Runs fantastic.
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon? :P)
(If you can't figure out how to E-Mail me, Don't.
TA must have some very clever code to perform as well as it did on machines of its day, but that's nothing some open source developers working their asses off 12 hours a day can't do -- you can bet that's minimum the amount of work that Cavedog put into TA. It's getting artists to make the keen looking units, terrain, and explosions. It's getting a composer to write a soundtrack and a full symphony orchestra to perform it. OSS games tend to look and sound like ass because it's precisely the aesthetic appeal of the game that often gets dismissed as mere fluff -- forgetting that in the big picture, games themselves are mere fluff.
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
I checked my box of Total Annihilation. Copyright 1997. That means 4-5 years old. About the age of Quake2 actually (and the Quake2 source *is* released). Releasing the source of a RTS game could result in many different clones. TA is an excellent game for this because it uses 3D models as units instead of pixelled graphics. This will probably make it easier to create new units or themes.
I mean if you can not see "gpl" or "bsd" when people say "public domain" what is the world coming to?
and the only reason that any licence is needed for some software is that the judicial process is mostly thick when it comes to computer stuff.
I mean if forinstance i wrote some code and put it out with a note to the effect:
THIS SOFTWARE IS GUARANTEED TO BE ABLE TO DO ANYTHING AND IS JUST THE BEST AND NOTHING COULD BE BETTER AND IT WILL EVEN IRON YOUR SHIRT.
Do you really think it would stand for anything.
When people can sue you for giving them stuff there is something wrong with the world.
+----------------- | What is the question!
1. Even if the source is released, you can still use the original game on Windows. No one needs MSVC to install a commercial game on a "proper gaming OS."
2. Even if the source is released, the publishers still make money off of every game sale. Even if someone else tries to make profit off the source code, they will have to create their own data. Anyone that would pay for just a source modification that came without data deserves whatever they get.
The only tarnish that comes to a company's name is when people use the source code to create cheats. But really, is the company to blame for the existence of cheaters?
To all the people replying and saying "id didn't get any problems for releasing Quake and Quake 2!!!!!", you are wrong. Carmack took a lot of crap over the Quake source release. He just seems to not be intimidated by a subculture of adolescents that can't type.
Just because you sign the petition dosent mean you will download the source and modify it. It may mean that you would like to see development of classic games continue once their companies have dissappear...
TA was a groundbreaking game for AI. I, personally, would like to look at how it's AI code works, although I am nowhere near good enough a programmer to actually make a game based on this source.
Basically, just because you sign the petition, dosent mean you have to be a game programmer.
I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
Unreal Tournament is still turning a profit. I've seen it for $35 in stores this month. I just bought six copies of TA:CC for $7 a piece, which I imagine was about the manufacturing cost for the box set. And the company that owns TA is no longer in business. I guess you could compare this to the "Free BeOS" petition. The company that owns it isn't around anymore, it's a really great product, and if you wanted to purchase it, it would be difficult. So we ask the owner to give it to us.
~LoudMusic
No sig for you. YOU GET NO SIG!
I'm sure if you found some employee who made sure to grab all the source before he left Cavedog to work for another games company in the Seattle/Bellevue area, he could probably be bribed to hand off the source he had in some way that would not trace back to him, thus avoiding personal legal hassles, while simultaneously benefitting all the people who really want to see the endless lines of well commented C++ covering everything from AI, to Network Play, to Graphics Rendering.
;)
So, seeing as I'm a musician, I'd really like a T.C. Electronix Fireworx effects module, another Delta 1010 digital audio IO board, and a dbx 376 tube mic preamp. You get those to my mailbox, and then we'll talk.
TA was/is a very cool game, but I believe it was pretty heavy on DirectX for graphics. I think it'd require a pretty large rewrite effort to port it to openGL so it could run on other OS'es. Anybody know if it had it's own 3d graphics engine or if it used DirectX routines exclusively?
Anyhow, Earth2150 is very similar and has much better graphics. Someone ought to use that as a model for an open source RTS game.
I have a copy (which I need to boot into OX9 to run). When CaveDog was releasing updates to TA, MacSoft was pretty quick about keeping up with them, so I don't think there would be that much of a problem porting to Linux of OSX. After playing with Starcraft and Command and Conquer for a while, I'm amazed at how much deeper the whole TA gaming experience is. TA is a much better candidate for porting because of all of the plug-ins and add-ons that have been developed. Bloodthirsty AI still gives me the willies.
There is no trap so deadly as the trap you set for yourself
-Raymond Chandler, The Long Goodbye
It seems like no one is citing id Software's release of the source code for Quake I and II. I agree that making TA public domain is a bad idea, but putting just the source code under GPL is not. Infograms can still sell more copies of the game just like id does since the art work is not.
Just my two cents.
-Eric
I have never heard of someone being successfully sued for a piece of public domain software being poor quality, without an explicit warranty, and I've looked pretty hard.
Can anyone provide a single example?
This is brought up over and over again as a reason not to release code into the public domain, but I've never seen any evidence that a disclaimer sent along with the initial release of public domain software is any less valid than one included in a licence such as the GPL. I believe it's a bit of licence folklore.
First thing: it is widely accepted that you don't need to agree to the GPL to use GPL software, only to distribute it. You don't even have to read it. That means you don't have to see or agree to any disclaimer of warranty.
Similarly, the end users of BSD or X type licenses don't have to see or agree to the terms. Under copyright law, having legally obtained a copy of software, by default you have the right to run it and back it up. Shrink wrap and click-through licenses are both somewhat legally shaky, but still a lot stronger than something you don't even see unless you look for it.
Furthermore, a case could be made that a copyright holder is more likely to be held responsible for defects in his work than a contributor to the public domain. Blanket disclaimers of warranty, especially tucked quietly away in a corner of a contract (especially one presented as "standard" or a mere formality, and not offering the opportunity to negociate), and in strong contrast to public claims, fall somewhere between weak and completely invalid.
Hell, the GPL still hasn't ever been tested in court. There are reasons to believe that releasing software under the GPL is putting it in the public domain, and it is just one test case away from being treated as such.
Picking a licence causes problems, too. The most important one is licence incompatibility: choose one, and you prevent the code from being used in projects using an incompatible licence, while public domain code can be included in projects using any licence I've heard of.
If the problem of liability is not a real one, then public domain is the simplest, easiest to understand, most reliable way to give people the full free use of your code.
Although I can't go into details (still under NDA after 6 years technically), we got bitten by this at a large software house not so long ago. Basically, some of our examples in the documentation were marked as "public domain" software and a third party began to redistribute the examples in binary form with added graphical interfaces. It turned out of the developers of this GUI had written his code on another company's time, and that company decided to sue us. Since there was no limitation of liability in our distributed source code, our lawyers had a harder time justifying our position.
You left out the most crucial part: What was their complaint? It doesn't sound like it had anything to do with merchantability or fitness for a particular purpose, or any sort of implied warranty.
It sounds to me a lot more like an accusation of your company being involved in the unauthorized use of this worker's paid time.
NDA or not, if you're not willing to specify enough details to show whether and how your example is relevant, you shouldn't have brought it up. I think you're using your NDA as an excuse to make vague references to a case that doesn't apply.
I checked my box of Total Annihilation. Copyright 1997. That means 4-5 years old
Five is less than ninety-five. A company that Infogrames bought created the code; therefore, <sarcasm>Infogrames deserves the right to it for ninety-five years, and the public benefits immensely from receiving the source code at the end of this copyright term</sarcasm>. If you disagree, do something about it: vote those eresponsible out of office.
Assuming that you're a United States citizen who voted in the 1996 elections, the representative and senators that you elected voted for the Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act. It was a voice vote, and nobody objected enough to demand even a mere head count. Next time, vote for leaders that won't take away Americans' right to a rich public domain. In the meantime, fax your representatives in whatever national government you happen to be under. To paraphrase U.S. President Bush, if you're not for copyright reform, you're against it.
Will I retire or break 10K?
it is, the community, with very little help from cavedog (the now-defunct developers of TA). We can make the game itself do back flips without the soruce, we can add units that lose parts, over heat, transform, can be upgraded (GKX), we can make entire new races, we can even use proper 3d terran software to make maps (bryce and terragen), we can do more than Chris Taylor (creator of total annihilation) ever dreamed.
but the engine is old, and it is starting to lose it's appeal even to the guys who have been playing since it was released (4 years ago), it's running out of supply at stores, it's hard to find, and most people don't remember it, very little new blood flowing into the community (which is about 1000 people). anyways, i've never seen a commerical RTS released under an open-source liscense, I think it'd be very interesting to see the results.
Hello. I'm Gamefreak from www.tauniverse.com After looking through here I've noticed that many people wonder why we want this source code? After all, who still plays TA? Who still plays TA? Thousands of people. After over 4 long years we still remain one of the largest RTS communities. There are tons of large TA supersites such as TA Universe ( www.tauniverse.com ), Planet Annihilation ( www.planetannihilation.com ), Annihilated ( www.annihilated.com ), TA Designers ( www.tadesigners.com ), Ultimate-Strategy ( www.ultimate-strategy.com ), TAMEC ( www.tamec.net ), and many more. Along with these sites are tons of hosted sites. TAU and PA alone host at least 60 sites, and there are many other TA sites independent from those mentioned above. You don't think anything's happening in the community though do you? Check the news at TA Universe or PA! We still have more news every day than brand new popular games that just came out! We want this source code because we have accomplished more than probably any other RTS community. After making over 1000 new fully 3D scripted units, over 5000 maps (at least), probably over 10 full races (who else can make races?), tons of third party programs and mods and so on, we are getting bored and want to alter the game engine itself. Our community has gone so far that we are making a full length TA movie at Annihilation Studios, a first person shooter in the TA world (called TA: Close Quarters), and the third party sequel to TA, TA: Flashback. TA:F will be fully 3D and so on, and it is also being made by Annihilation Studios. Just recently Infogrames opened up a TA forum for us (who knows why?), apparently after finally noticing we survived and thrived even after they closed down Cavedog and left us to die. (whoever claims he is a former infogrames worker is wrong, I've had TA since october 1997 and I know for a fact that cavedog was NOT dead when infogrames acquired GT). Anyway...anyone who still plays TA is encouraged to come to the above sites and post on all our forums, esp. TA Universe, the biggest one (still bigger than most RTS fan forums, believe it or not. Several hundred thousand posts and several thousand users..).
I'm not a gamer, and I'm not a wine user, but if it's as good as you say then that's great news. This is different from making the game GPL, though. The reason why TA game developers would like to see the source is probably so that they can support the game better by adding the most commonly used cool tricks to the engine, or so by studying the engine they can simplify the code. Having the binary run under Wine doesn't enable them to do this.
Still, it isn't an easy decision to make a game GPL. There are lawyers to feed, and the game may well depend on proprietary code or rely on non-disclosure agreements. This is the good fight, though. Keep on pushing.
Sadly, the page turns a 404 and it hasn't been updated since July 2000.
TA is a great game (I have it along with the two expansion packs Core and Battle Tactics) and I'd love to see what people could do with the source.
ICQ 1067292
AIM Razzbuten
ANYTIME ANYPLACE YOU PICK THE MAP!!! I will even let you pick which side I am...
I was WELL KNOWN on the Boneyards...me and a friend only lost 2 or 3 times in our reign of terror on a 2 v 2.
I still play it and fondly think back to the days when TA was still new and all the fun that could be had. It was a FLASH RUSH not a ZERG RUSH. The good players could recover from any start and whip you. The bad players just learned from their mistakes.
For you people complaining about the AI, try BLOODTHIRSTY AI. Wow what a rush. Several other AI's were released, bloodthirsty was the toughest (it cheats).
For fun Try Core Prime Industrial Map with 9 AI. Standard AI will take you awhile to beat. Try a smarter AI that nukes and you will have trouble...Add a KROGGY or 2 and WOW its HOURS of entertainment.
Razzious Domini
I could be a GREAT KARMA WHORE if I could just shed the few morals I have left.