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Mars Odyssey Completes Aerobraking

Cally writes: "Space.com reports that Mars Odyssey has completed aerobraking and is ready to begin its main science mission. As the spacecraft has already produced exciting results before the start of the science mission proper, interesting data on the quantities of water in the Martian crust may be expected soon - not to mention that Odyssey provides another datapoint in the study of Gamma Ray bursts."

169 comments

  1. Before it gets slashdotted by volpe · · Score: 2, Informative

    Here's the article:

    January 11, 2002

    MEDIA RELATIONS OFFICE
    JET PROPULSION LABORATORY
    CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
    NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION
    PASADENA, CALIFORNIA 91109. TELEPHONE (818) 354-5011
    http://www.jpl.nasa.gov

    Mars Odyssey Mission Status
    January 11, 2002

    Flight controllers for NASA's Mars Odyssey spacecraft sent commands overnight to raise the spacecraft up out of the atmosphere and conclude the aerobraking phase of the mission.

    At 12:18 a.m. Pacific time Jan. 11, Odyssey fired its small thrusters for 244 seconds, changing its speed by 20 meters per second (45 miles per hour) and raising its orbit by 85 kilometers (53 miles). The closest point in Odyssey's orbit, called the periapsis, is now 201 kilometers (125 miles) above the surface of Mars. The farthest point in the orbit, called the apoapsis, is at an altitude of 500 kilometers (311 miles). During the next few weeks, flight controllers will refine the orbit until the spacecraft reaches its final mapping altitude, a 400-kilometer (249-mile) circular orbit.

    "The successful completion of the aerobraking phase is a major milestone for the project. Aerobraking is the most complex phase of the entire mission and the team came through it without a hitch," said David A. Spencer, Odyssey's mission manager at JPL. "During the next month, we will be reconfiguring the spacecraft to begin the science mapping mission." The science mission is expected to begin in late February.

    During the aerobraking phase, Odyssey skimmed through the upper reaches of the martian atmosphere 332 times. By using the atmosphere of Mars to slow down the spacecraft in its orbit rather than firing its engine or thrusters, Odyssey was able to save more than 200 kilograms (440 pounds) of propellant. This reduction in spacecraft weight enabled the mission to be launched on a Delta II 7925 launch vehicle, rather than a larger, more expensive launcher.

    JPL manages the 2001 Mars Odyssey mission for NASA's Office of Space Science, Washington, D.C. Principal investigators at Arizona State University in Tempe, the University of Arizona in Tucson, and NASA's Johnson Space Center, Houston, Texas, operate the science instruments. Additional science investigators are located at the Russian Space Research Institute and Los Alamos National Laboratories. Lockheed Martin Astronautics, Denver, Colo., is the prime contractor for the project, and developed and built the orbiter. Mission operations are conducted jointly from Lockheed Martin and from JPL, a division of the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena. NASA's Langley Research Center in Hampton, Va., is providing aerobraking support to JPL's navigation team during mission operations.

    1. Re:Before it gets slashdotted by hooded1 · · Score: 3, Funny

      I don't think you really have to worry about slashdotting NASA. I'm pretty sure they got a hefty amount of bandwidth. And chances are also that its not gunna get that many hits at midnight e.s.t

      --
      A rabbit in the hand is worth 4 in the cage
    2. Re:Before it gets slashdotted by Unbeliever · · Score: 3, Interesting
      The four machines that are mars.jpl.nasa.gov have handled worse than SlashDot. They survived everybody pounding on it for the Pathfinder mission.

      They have their own tap off JPL's isolation router. Coming into our isolation router are quite a few REALLY fat pipes.

      --
      --Carlos V.
    3. Re:Before it gets slashdotted by inerte · · Score: 1

      I don't like when people get Karma because they think that a site is Slashdotted or that it will be.

      Sometimes a server get a high load and gets offline for 5 minutes and people already consider it slashdotted. I have seen people that copied an article while I could still access the website. Props to the webmasters and system administrators for handling this situation by fixing bandwith and loading problems.

      But, simply 'mirror' a text is not valid for positive karma points. Because you don't need brains to get these points. It's not something that adds up to the discussion. We have a user getting positive karma because he came first.

      It's like if we continue with this, one day we might see instead of First Post! comments, something in the line of:

      First Mirror!
      // Follows text

  2. I'm all for exploration... by wo1verin3 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    but does nasa have any long term goals?

    What are we trying to achieve.

    I'm not looking for troll points, but am actually curious. Human colonization is quite unlikely due to the plant being so close to the Sun.

    Other then a place to live, does a planet such as this offer any benefit to us?

    1. Re:I'm all for exploration... by volpe · · Score: 2


      Human colonization is quite unlikely due to the plant being so close to the Sun.

      Mars is further from the sun, not closer, than Earth.

    2. Re:I'm all for exploration... by lunadude · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Mission endourance tests
      Reduced gravity habitats
      Alternate farming techniques
      etc...

      Some of the knowlege gained will help us go further from our home, still others will contribute to our lives here.

      Astronauts are "test pilots".

    3. Re:I'm all for exploration... by dotderf · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Initially, it was to show the Commies who was boss. These days it's to justify a massive budget. I'm not looking to be a troll, but we need to look at this realistically. On the other hand, without NASA, we wouldn't have space food. Come on guys, space food!

    4. Re:I'm all for exploration... by demaria · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Which would you rather do, set up a colony for the first time a few months away or a few years away? At least with Mars, if something goes horribly horribly wrong, they'll only be a few days or months away, as opposed to lightyears.

      Some have suggested that we colonize a small part of the sea as a training ground.

    5. Re:I'm all for exploration... by Skyshadow · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Devil's Advocate: Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to put a colony on the moon, then? It's only a few days away, and it's always reachable (as opposed to Mars, which can be very tough to get to/from depending on the relative positions in our orbits).

      Let me try to answer my own question:

      Mars is a place with resources; there's an atmosphere and useful raw materials are present. You could make livable buildings, air, even grow food -- all you need is enough energy and you can do a lot of things based simply on what we already know is there.

      The moon, on the other hand, is relatively barren. Living there would be a lot harder, especially in terms of the no atmosphere thing. You have to bring just about everything you need to the moon, but could live reasonably on Mars just by moving power there and investing a lot of elbow grease, building infrastructure and etc. Potentially, you could make the surface of Mars the second-safest place in the solar system, able to survive even thtough years of zero contact with earth.

      Just a thought, though, that it you want *practice*, the moon's probably a better place to start.

      --
      Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
    6. Re:I'm all for exploration... by robogun · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's that old (but valid) argument that humanity has all its eggs in one basket. If some son-of-a-bitch pushed the button here on Earth, it's all she wrote for our race.

    7. Re:I'm all for exploration... by Guppy06 · · Score: 2

      No, you're not all for exploration. If you were, then you'd understand that exploration is a reason to do it in its own right. If you need to have a reason to "explore," that means you're against it and looking for a better reason to get you up off your ass.

      With that being said, lots and lots of real estate that's easier to launch from (in both the surface-to-orbit and extra-solar senses of the words), as well as both known and unknown natural resources. Oh, and no tree-huggers if you want to get industrial up there.

    8. Re:I'm all for exploration... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As humans our main goal is survival of the species. Is it really wise to keep all our eggs in one basket(planet)? Mars must be colonized sooner rather than later.

    9. Re:I'm all for exploration... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right now is just a time between colisions - if we don't leave by the time the next big one hits, we're toast, literally.

      Survival is our most basic instinct, we have to spread out.

    10. Re:I'm all for exploration... by MrDolby · · Score: 1

      "Potentially, you could make the surface of Mars the second-safest place in the solar system."
      Someone's been reading Zubrin.

      The moon is not a good practice for mars though. One point is on mars one of the major things to make the mission work is you need to produce resources on the surface rocket fuel, air, etc. On the moon there is no way to practice for this. Another point is that the spacecraft/landing craft would not need to be tested on the moon, its easier and a more accurate test to just put the space craft into earth orbit and test it landing on earth.

    11. Re:I'm all for exploration... by MrDolby · · Score: 1

      "No, you're not all for exploration. If you were, then you'd understand that exploration is a reason to do it in its own right. If you need to have a reason to "explore," that means you're against it and looking for a better reason to get you up off your ass. "

      You are so right. The same could be said for all of science. Just replace the word exploration with science.

    12. Re:I'm all for exploration... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Furthermore, plants are a bit harder to colonize than planets.

    13. Re:I'm all for exploration... by markmoss · · Score: 1

      Unless you are a caterpillar.

  3. Also note .. by Eloquence · · Score: 5, Interesting

    .. the prior story about preliminary findings. This is not redundant: It is something that has mostly been ignored by official NASA press releases but has still made it into the mainstream media. I really hope that the failure of NASA to mention that they already have detected "large desposits of hydrogen" close to the surface means that they're waiting to confirm their findings, not that there's some dark conspiracy postponing any serious trips to Mars by decades in favor of sinking money into NMD, ISS and the Shuttle instead.

    1. Re:Also note .. by Markus+Landgren · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Maybe NASA doesn't broadcast this as big news simply because it is not news. The water ice at the poles of Mars has been known since like forever, and the fact that Odyssey has spotted it only means that the spacecraft's instruments seem to be functional.

    2. Re:Also note .. by rtaylor · · Score: 2

      I'm fairly sure that ISS would place a significant part in any kind of 'serious trip to Mars'. Basically a spacestation is a requirement to it, or atleast required to do it in any reasonable timeframe as we all know how long it takes to build large things in space with the shuttle.

      --
      Rod Taylor
    3. Re:Also note .. by MrDolby · · Score: 2, Informative

      Wrong, the ISS is not needed nor is it even designed to be a spaceport or deep space launching platform. NASA already has a plan to get to mars "Mars Direct". They just need the funds to implement it. Check out the Mars Society's web site http://www.marssociety.org and read "A Case for Mars" By Dr. Robert Zubrin. The book is a great read for anyone interested in Mars exploration and explains why we don't need tons of space infrastructure to get to mars.

    4. Re:Also note .. by MrDolby · · Score: 1

      Wrong, the ISS is not needed nor is it designed to be a spaceport/drydock or deep space launching platform. Nasa already has a plan to get to mars "Mars Direct". They just need the funds and drive to implement it. Read "A Case for Mars" By Dr. Robert Zubrin, the creator of the Mars Direct Mission. Also check out http://www.marssociety.org

    5. Re:Also note .. by Eloquence · · Score: 2
      That is not correct, since the water was found near the poles, not at the poles (which would, indeed, have been a rather obvious discovery). Reuters release:
      On Wednesday, scientists said the first pass by the neutron spectrometer had revealed evidence of hydrogen in the soil in northern regions near the pole.

      [...]

      Significant water ice deposits easily accessible on the surface of the planet would benefit any future Mars mission astronauts and make it much more likely that life might have existed on the planet.

      NASA scientists said they were excited by the initial indications of hydrogen deposits, describing the readings sent back as clearer, more definite and much earlier than had been expected.

      "We were expecting that it would take many orbits (to determine the presence of hydrogen)," said Stephen Saunders, a scientist on the Odyssey project. "But we saw it the very first time."

      Also, prior to this discovery, it has been claimed many times that significant amounts of water have never existed on Mars, and that what we are seeing is mostly carbon dioxide (cf. Google search) except for some water ice at the poles. These claims should now finally be refuted. Therefore, this is an extremely important discovery, suggesting large amounts of water elsewhere under the surface, given that we already know of the prior presence of an ocean on Mars (it was also debated that what we are seeing are merely the results of carbon dioxide erosion).
    6. Re:Also note .. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't like Mars Direct. We got to the moon with basically Moon Direct. When's the last time we went back there?

    7. Re:Also note .. by markmoss · · Score: 2

      The ISS is not the right platform for assembling a manned Mars mission, but neither is Cape Canaveral. Mars Direct just shows that NASA would rather repeat their mistakes than admit their Apollo program was flawed. The "Moon Direct" mission plan came about when the mission turned from true exploration/science into a publicity stunt to be executed as fast as possible. It got two men to the moon in about 7 years, but the work they were able to do was quite limited, and going back more than a few times was too expensive.

      With Mars, let's take our time, and put together a mission that has enough people, equipment, and supplies to really accomplish something. That will be far too big to launch in one piece...

    8. Re:Also note .. by MrDolby · · Score: 1

      Do you even know what the Mars Direct mission is? Its not at all a flag and footprints mission like Apollo. Check out the Mars Direct Home page, http://www.nw.net/mars/ Also check out the technical document http://www.nw.net/mars/docs/nearterm.txt

      The Mars direct Mission calls for a minimal stay of 1.5 years on the Martian surface far greater than the hours spent on the moon in Apollo. With a combustion powered rover which uses fuel produced on mars to allow about 24,000 ground kilometers can be traversed, ranging up to 500 km out from the base. Thus each mission can explore an area of approximately 800,000 square kilometers, which is roughly the size of the state of Texas.

  4. hmmmm... by 3-State+Bit · · Score: 2, Flamebait

    interesting data on the quantities of water in the Martian crust...

    You know, doesn't this mean that all this other searching for extra-terrestrial intelligence is pretty counter-productive? If there's water right there on Mars, chances are there would be intelligent life there within a few billion years too. (It's the initial part of the thing that takes awhile...once you've got cells, the growth is like, exponential man.)

    Instead, we're sending probes up there when we KNOW there's no intelligent life yet. It's like barging into the prenatal ward every few minutes while your wife's about to give birth to say "are you done yet?" Believe me, when she's done, you'll know!

    At this rate, within the foreseeable future we'll have groped every planet capable of sustaining life with these stupid probes. Ever consider that under these conditions, intelligent life won't want to evolve? People like to be left in peace (that's why they get all fussy about the anal probes they constantly imagine aliens violating them with)...don't you think other would-be life might feel the same way?

    This is not off-topic.

    1. Re:hmmmm... by iansmith · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I am split on the problems with contaminating other planets with bacteria and Earth-based life.

      I don't seriously worry about destroying the possible chance of life evolving in a billion years time (not sure how serious the above poster is either), but I *do* worry about contaminating planets and moons before we have the ability to do a detailed examination.

      That said.. I'd rather send people there than have it sit in pristine condition. Pretty, but useless.

      I'm still sad we don't have a moon base. Oh well, back to Space 1999 reruns...

    2. Re:hmmmm... by 3-State+Bit · · Score: 5, Insightful

      problems with contaminating other planets with bacteria and Earth-based life.
      Hello: we already douse all probes in Dial antibacterial soap first, to make sure we don't give any other planets weird fungi that we later claim were the first life found on other planets! (Sorry I don't have a non-cached link, the page seems to be down.)

      That said, as for your: I'd rather send people there than have it sit in pristine condition
      Why? What's so good about having people there? I say go after the Earth-based problems, and don't do things like spend three percent of our government's money on a trillion-dollar program just to get humans in a place they aren't very suited for being in the first place. When we've got the luxury of having solved most Earth-based problems, then you go after the extraneous stuff like that. Until then, I'm happy if we just do information-gathering type things: for that, you DON'T need people anywhere but in their office-chairs, except for whoever actually has to slingshot the probes into space. (Or have things changed since then? I might be dating myself here....[in a strictly platonic way, of course.])

    3. Re:hmmmm... by Wombat · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually, your idea that newly evolved intelligent life will be there in a few billion years is probably a bit off.
      As mentioned in the Odyssey mission objectives, "Mars today is far too cold with an atmosphere that is far too thin to support liquid water on the surface." Not an outright elimination of the possibility of intelligent life, but at least of intelligent life as we know it. The atmosphere is just way too thin, and things may only get worse on the surface from further bleed off without some form of intervention. I think the common view is that if there was higher (i.e., many cellular) life on mars, it was probably when back when the planet was warmer and wetter. Anything that might be left is likely barely eking out an existence in special environments.
      And, in the few billion years you propose for intelligent life to evolve, the sun will have expanded to a red giant, and the surface of Mars will likely be nice and toasty. A bit too toasty perhaps for, again, life as we know it.
      Finally, there's plenty of scientific value in studying Mars whether there's life there or not. The life issue is perhaps the most media friendly, and the one that most captures the pop cultural interest, but there's lots of other stuff to learn from that red rock.

      -Wombat

    4. Re:hmmmm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I say go after the Earth-based problems, and don't do things like spend three percent of our government's money on a trillion-dollar program just to get humans in a place they aren't very suited for being in the first place. When we've got the luxury of having solved most Earth-based problems, then you go after the extraneous stuff like that.

      Wow, such insanity. You do realize that to completely adhere to such backward ideas you would be incapable of posting your asinine message?

      Do you?

    5. Re:hmmmm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He said PUTTING people on Mars, fuckwad. Read the next sentence after the part you quoted.

    6. Re:hmmmm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe intelligent life is a rare fluke. Of the millions of species on earth each having evolved over as long a period as humans, we are the only species that can be termed intelligent.

    7. Re:hmmmm... by Queer+Boy · · Score: 0, Redundant
      We're all lying in the gutter, but some of us are staring at the stars. -Oscar Wilde
      Think about that.
      --
      Not since Marie-Antoinette played milkmaid has looking simple and honest been so fake and complicated.
    8. Re:hmmmm... by Queer+Boy · · Score: 1

      The problem with this thinking is that all life must be carbon based and all life must exist the way it does on this one planet. IIRC virii are not carbon based, and IIRC virii do not respirate. They certainly constitute life. But I could be wrong about virii, I'm too lazy to look it up.

      --
      Not since Marie-Antoinette played milkmaid has looking simple and honest been so fake and complicated.
    9. Re:hmmmm... by mgblst · · Score: 1

      Its life Jim, but not as we know it.

    10. Re:hmmmm... by IronChef · · Score: 1


      Don't apply for any biochemistry positions. :)

    11. Re:hmmmm... by AnalogBoy · · Score: 2

      Corollary, Spammers respirate, are carbon based, and do not constitute life.

      man touch finger mount pump fsck yes umount make clean sleep

    12. Re:hmmmm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of the millions of species on earth each having evolved over as long a period as humans, we are the only species that can be termed intelligent.

      The poster has obviously not been on Slashdot long.

    13. Re:hmmmm... by timholman · · Score: 1

      You know, doesn't this mean that all this other searching for extra-terrestrial intelligence [seti.org] is pretty counter-productive? If there's water right there on Mars, chances are there would be intelligent life there within a few billion years too. (It's the initial part of the thing that takes awhile...once you've got cells, the growth is like, exponential man.)

      Although many people believe that life is very common throughout the universe, and will spread rapidly anywhere it gets a foothold, there's no deterministic path towards intelligent life. The prevailing view is that intelligence is an accident, not an end-product, of evolution. Many scientists believe that intelligent life is extremely rare, and that we may be the first intelligent civilization to evolve in the Milky Way galaxy.

      After all, if a large meteor hadn't hit the earth about 65 millions years ago, dinosaurs would still be roaming the earth. Humanity is here due to a freak accident, and in fact we may be very unique.
    14. Re:hmmmm... by DrMaurer · · Score: 1

      We could wait until all problems on the earth are solved, but who says that will happen?

      Differences in people are what cause problems, and if we really want to foster a diverse world, then we're going to have certain world-views that collide.

      If everyone was the same, there would be far fewer massive problems than right now. But I don't think most people would want to be like the rest of the world just because it would be a nicer place to live. No, the Muslims and Jews won't convert to Christianity to have a nicer place. The Democrats and Republicans aren't likely to get along just so that the world is nicer. VI and EMacs will never get along. Especially when all the above groups have an ideology to defend.

      My opinion:
      The only thing we have that could possibly bring us together is to once again have some sense of wonder about what's out there. Every step we take in the universe is a wonder, and if we wait . . . we're likely to be destroyed by our own differences.

      Of course, that may be the right answer: make sure we don't infect the universe. That's awfully pessimistic, but it might be true. I just hope that through further exploration our differences even out because we realize that, really, Kashmir is just a little strip of land, and that there is a seemingly infinite amount of everything.

      Idyllicly (I know that's probably misspelled), exploring and usage of space will allow us to have the material things that we desire and think we need, so that there are less things to fight about, and thereby solving problems.

      Haves versus have-nots. It's all kind of pointless when you see how much is out there, and there is enough for everyone. Three percent of the budget seems rediculously (sp) small for that possibility.

      My opinion, I could be wrong. . .

      --
      Dan
    15. Re:hmmmm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are absolutely wrong. Human beings on this planet are starting to stagnate. We need a new, harsh frontier to spark genuine human ingeniuty again.

      Have you ever heard the phrase 'neccessity is the mother of invention'? When first settling the new world in the 16, 17, and 1800s some of the most signifigant inventions came about from north america. Why? Because humans under duress and hardship are amazingly resourceful and ingenious. In todays modern world we are all safe in our cosy heated homes with a lot of extra time not spent on surviving/thinking about how to survive.

      We need a new environment to pressure us into such ingenuity once again. The exloration and colonization of Mars is our most sensible outlet for this.

    16. Re:hmmmm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When we've got the luxury of having solved most Earth-based problems...

      but we already have...all the remaining problems cannot be solved by throwing resources/money at them..they are mainly political problems.

    17. Re:hmmmm... by markmoss · · Score: 2

      Spammers respirate, are carbon based, and do not constitute life.

      Now you've got me dreaming about the sort of experiments that would have to be performed on captive spammers to confirm the first two claims...

    18. Re:hmmmm... by AnalogBoy · · Score: 2

      Lets start with Miss Cleo. Then my employer.. (But i take no part in the spamming! none! I just run our website! I even refused to set up a spam server!) We can of course fund this operation with low-interest credit cards that i can acquire once i rid myself of this debt i built up buying so many pr0n site subscriptions. We can use X10 cameras to log our experiments.

    19. Re:hmmmm... by alfredw · · Score: 1

      Until then, I'm happy if we just do information- gathering type things: for that, you DON'T need people anywhere but in their office-chairs, except for whoever actually has to slingshot the probes into space.

      I would tend to disagree with that point. I think that by far the best way to do science in space is to send scientists. A probe is limited to detecting whatever phenomenon its instruments are designed to detect, but a human scientist can improvise, notice trends, hack together equipment, go digging in rough terrain, follow a hunch, etc. Overall, a human being is an excellent explorer. Properly equipped, I'm sure you'd get superior science results to a string of probes.

      Don't get me wrong - probes are very important, especially sample-return missions. I'm just saying that we could do MORE with people.

      --
      In Soviet Russia, sig types you!
    20. Re:hmmmm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why? What's so good about having people there? I say go after the Earth-based problems, and don't do things like spend three percent of our government's money on a trillion-dollar program just to get humans in a place they aren't very suited for being in the first place. When we've got the luxury of having solved most Earth-based problems, then you go after the extraneous stuff like that.

      I'm glad Queen Isabella didn't say that to Columbus!

    21. Re:hmmmm... by spike+hay · · Score: 1

      >>That said, as for your: I'd rather send people there than have it sit in pristine condition
      Why? What's so good about having people there? I say go after the Earth-based problems, and don't do things like spend three percent of our government's money on a trillion-dollar program just to get humans in a place they aren't very suited for being in the first place. When we've got the luxury of having solved most Earth-based problems, then you go after the extraneous stuff like that.
      ----
      That argument is not valid. When you think about how much money the government blows on stupid crap, who cares about NASA? The world's problems will never be solved, even if we do get rid of NASA. I think the point of not spending money on space because of the problems here is not valid. Applying the same argument to you, I could say you bought that computer with the money you could of used to save 10 people's lives in Somalia. If we cancel NASA because we have problems here on earth, that would just be dumb.
      A better place to cut the budget would be the department of defense. Remember that the money they spend on a squadron of stealth bombers is as large as the NASA budget. Things at the DOD could be cut down. Look at Afganistan: We sent just an infestimally small percentage of our air force and we still blew the shit out of them. If we cut DOD spending by a third, we'd still be the most powerful country by far and we'd save hundreds of billions.

      --
      If you don't understand any of my sayings, come to me in private and I shall take you in my German mouth.
  5. It keeps engineers & scientists employed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    If these engineers and scientists weren't preoccupied with their little space experiments
    then they would be out roaming the streets, preying on innocent children, and frightening
    women. Its better this way. Sure we could lock them all up, but there's always the chance they
    might produce something useful like a robotic sex slave.

  6. I'm sorry Dave... by funkhauser · · Score: 1, Funny

    Only a few million more miles until the onboard computer malfunctions and that trippy space sequence starts!

  7. NASA [aero]brakes... for the environment! by Tsar · · Score: 1, Funny

    By using the atmosphere of Mars to slow down the spacecraft in its orbit rather than firing its engine or thrusters, Odyssey was able to save more than 200 kilograms (440 pounds) of propellant. This reduction in spacecraft weight enabled the mission to be launched on a Delta II 7925 launch vehicle, rather than a larger, more expensive launcher.

    No small feat, there. Too bad they didn't use regenerative aerobraking—we might have gotten the spacecraft back.

    1. Re:NASA [aero]brakes... for the environment! by madumas · · Score: 1

      No small feat, there. Too bad they didn't use regenerative aerobraking [nrel.gov]?we might have gotten the spacecraft back.


      They talk about electric car breaking, I can't understand how it could apply to aerobraking. Do you have a better link?

    2. Re:NASA [aero]brakes... for the environment! by Skyshadow · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I don't see how that would work...

      I mean, you could probably come up with a method of generating some mechanical energy in the process of aerobraking, but it seems to me that we're dealing with a mechanical energy which wouldn't do you a whole lot of good in space -- after all, fuel isn't the problem, it's a lack of something to push against.

      So, am I missing something here, or did you just post that link to look smart?

      --
      Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
    3. Re:NASA [aero]brakes... for the environment! by iansmith · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Is regenerative aerobreaking feasable at our technology level?

      It would have to gather up reachtion mass plus generate power to use it. Perhaps a scoop and long cables to use the planets electro-magnetic field to store up power.

      Nothing we have comes close to pulling off this sort of trick.

      Anyway.. why bother about getting it back? Who would want it? I mean, my last car lost enough resale value in the past few years.. the trade-in value for a vehicle with a billion miles on it would really suck. :-)

    4. Re:NASA [aero]brakes... for the environment! by FredGray · · Score: 1
      And just how do you propose to do this??? Your link talks about regenerative braking with electric and hybird gasoline/electric automobiles.

      To do this with a spacecraft, you would have to transform the heat generated by friction in the atmosphere into some form of stored energy. You won't ever be able to do this with anything like 100% efficiency, and the weight of whatever you use to do this conversion will almost certainly make this a losing proposition.

    5. Re:NASA [aero]brakes... for the environment! by ryanvm · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Too bad they didn't use regenerative aerobraking...

      Regenerative areobraking? What do you want them to do - put paddle wheels on the probe?

      Okay, your comment was stupid. You probably just had a twitchy "Submit" finger and wanted to get a comment in there early. I can understand that. What is ridiculous is that at least two morons out there actually thought is was "Interesting" enough to mod it up to +4.

      Would whoever did that please smack the back of their head for me? Thanks.

    6. Re:NASA [aero]brakes... for the environment! by mandolin · · Score: 2

      Mmmph. Maybe it was supposed to be funny. In any case, any time you have a heat differential (between the inside of the craft and the outside, heated by atmospheric friction) you can theoretically use that to create power. But unless it's nescessary, adding that ability would only increase weight, which is the problem aerobraking is supposed to be solving in the first place.

    7. Re:NASA [aero]brakes... for the environment! by QuickFox · · Score: 1

      His post is genuinely funny. It really is very funny if you understand what he's saying and have that sort of humor.

      Give a man a fish and he eats for one day. Teach him how to fish, and though he'll eat for a lifetime, he'll call you a miser for not giving him your fish.

      --
      Terrorists can't threaten a country's freedom and democracy. Only lawmakers and voters can do that.
    8. Re:NASA [aero]brakes... for the environment! by savage_panda · · Score: 1

      You could save the electricity and use it to power an ion engine to bring the space craft back.

      Perhaps gas can also be collected in the atmosphere so that no extra fuel is needed to brought along with the space craft. Thou, bringing Xenon gas maybe far lighter alternative than the collector that would need to be installed.

    9. Re:NASA [aero]brakes... for the environment! by esonik · · Score: 1

      last time they tried to use degenerative braking they didn't get back their spacecraft as promised. So they switched back to the old scheme.

  8. Could anyone explain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    [This is a serious question, please think before you moderate]

    Could, anyone explain why we are going to Mars? Or, why we are even bothered taking pictures of it? What's the point of going to Mars, when most of the powers in this planet are at the brink of nuclear war? I don't see any short-term necessity to go to Mars. If anyone wish to give constructive remarks contrary, please feel free to do so. I understand the ghist of this site, but should we not worry about the amount of human lives being lost in the name of established religions that dictate nothing but outdated virtue?

    Thank you.

    Javid O'Hare.
    Citizens Commission on Human Rights

    1. Re:Could anyone explain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ok.

      It's this way bubba, when you spend money on missions to Mars and the likes, you're pouring billions of dollars into research programs at good Universities like UCLA, ASU, UoA etc. Now, This money is not only used to research products like taking pictures of Mars, the biproduct of this resarch is what we call secondary inventions, those that run our planet. Look at every invention we use right now, almost everthing, from phone to computer, was an invetion of secoundary resources allocated during times of War or Exploration. The two great feats of human culture. I hope this is a better reply than the troll post by SkyShow.

      Farad. -(:)-

    2. Re:Could anyone explain by LuckyPhil · · Score: 1
      What's the point of going to Mars, when most of the powers in this planet are at the brink of nuclear war?

      When the world powers are throwing their nuclear pencils at each other, wouldn't it be handy to go somewhere else after the aftermath?

      When you have read the Mars trilogy by Kim Stanley-Robinson (Red Mars, Green Mars, Blue Mars), you will realise that it is only a matter of time that we start to utilise the resources of space. Mars appears to be the closest candidate for colonization.

      Personally, I'm still waiting for someone to discover the planet Rupert. :)

    3. Re:Could anyone explain by Skip666Kent · · Score: 1

      1. We're going to Mars to do Science.

      2. We take pictures of Mars to do Science, and because it's fun and they look cool.

      3. Astrophysisists are not not much better at politics and foreign-policy than the rest of us, so I say let them stick to their chosen persuit of Science.

      4. Some of us try to look beyond what we may presently believe to be short-term necessities. This has probably saved Mankind's ass many times in the past.

      5. Addressing the proposed problem of lives lost in the name of established religions is (once again) not really a good use of your typical Astrophysicist's time. He or she is most likely to look at you rather quizically and say something like "What do you mean exactly?" while not-so-secretly hoping that you will leave soon.

      There's lot's of folks in the world, so we can (and will) all do lot's of different things. Is that hard to understand?

      You wish it were otherwise? You wish you could enact policy so that we would all have to address 'urgent world issues' as labeled such by folks like yourself?

      Hey, Good Luck to ya!

      --
      **>>BELCH
  9. Gamma ray bursts on Nova now by Tim+Macinta · · Score: 2
    What weird timing... I just finished watching a Nova documentary on the gamma ray bursts just an hour or two ago. They entitled the episode Death Star and PBS has set up a website for it at http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/gamma/. The short of it is that scientists believe that these bursts are the result of stars about 30 times the size of our sun collapsing (and forming black holes in the process). They referred to this as a "hyper-nova" as distinguished from the smaller "super-nova". The process gives off a tremendous amount of energy - the most of any process that we know of since the big bang, according to the Nova narrator.

    Anyway, PBS tends to re-run Nova episodes quite a bit where I live, so check your local listings - you might be able to catch it again real soon if you missed it the first time.

    1. Re:Gamma ray bursts on Nova now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      just saw that episode a few days ago, interesting...

      yes i know, this post is redundant, mod me down, i posted anonymously anyway =)

      mrp-

  10. Do NOT click that link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This person's comment links to a website showing inappropriate material such as child pornography. I have a friend who click on this link and has now been sentenced to prison for trying to view child porn.

    Don't let yourself become a victim!
    Don't click that link!

    1. Re:Do NOT click that link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I have a friend who click on this link and has now been sentenced to prison for trying to view child porn.
      Your country sucks. It will be defeated and your president (or king?) will be shaved, hooded, sedated and brought to Cuba :-)
    2. Re:Do NOT click that link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      your president (or king?) will be shaved,

      Or perhaps just fed pretzels

  11. NASA Feels the Heat at Latest Mars Launch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    After a nearly perfect launch, 2001 Mars Odyssey is on its 400-million-mile, six-month journey to the red planet. The spacecraft will primarily search for water on Mars but it will also seek 19 other chemical elements and measure radiation. NASA, just barely holding the budget-cutters at bay, needs to recover from two previous Mars failures: the Mars Polar Lander and the Mars Climate Orbiter. If everything works, Mars Odyssey will spend two years circling the planet while taking measurements and readings. The mission was already providing remarkably sharp and dramatic views before and during lift-off with two cameras attached to the Delta 2 rocket, one facing up and one down.

    NASA:
    http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/odyssey/
    Space.com: Space.com

    1. Re:NASA Feels the Heat at Latest Mars Launch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mod parent up! It includes a link to the story on Space.com. A good read.

  12. Multitasking by Skyshadow · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Ah yes, one of the favorite arguements of people who think space exporation is a bad idea.

    Look, spending the resources we currently expend on space travel isn't going to contribute substantially to work peace (nor hunger, nor overpopulation, nor keeping people from being laid off).

    On the other hand, the greatest points of human progress have historically taken place in two times -- exploration and war. Both of them create necessity, which is (of course) the mother of invention. I assume you'd rather avoid war, as would I, so exploration seems like a good investment.

    Besides, its our nature to do this sort of thing. That's why people weaved reed boats, why they sailed before they could figure their position with any certainty, why we, as a race, have always struggled to see what's over the next hill.

    The small-minded idea that you could solve disease, hunger and war by supressing the instinct to explore and becoming universal xenophobes is both juvenile and foolish -- at no time in history has anything like this proven true. Indeed, the worst times tend to be those where we stopped being curious -- dark ages, anyone?

    I don't mean to be too brutal, but your half-thought-out assertion in this area offends me.

    --
    Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
    1. Re:Multitasking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't believe you have answered his question. Frankly, there are better reason
      s for the exploration of Mars.

      1. Mars is our closest planet, if something were to happen to Earth (eg: India a
      nd the Paki's destroy half the world), then we'd have to teleport there.

      2. Mars climate is not a challage, when compared to the rest of the planets.

      3. Mars has massive qunatities of raw materials that would be essential to the c
      reation of life there.

      4. You can wear a shirt during summer in Mars.

      5. The gravity on Mars is almost that of Earth, thus people would not feel disor
      iented or loose bone mars. Also going to Mars for the elderly might be a good id
      ea (retirement homes in mars?) since bone degradation is much less in Mars as th
      at would be on Earth.

      6. Mars can be easily terraformed (I know the word is sickening).

      7. Mars is a chance for us to start a world without infuence of religion (what c
      reates war?), since on Mars, no one would be able to utter (.. And so God create
      d the world and put adam on it..).

      8. Missions to Mars have already raised the standard of living for most of the w
      estern world through secondary inventions (Such as the digital Cameras used on S
      oujourner, which in turn became the base models of Digital cameras from Nikon, C
      annon, Sony, HP, Olympus and so on! This is one direct innovation from Missions
      to Mars).

      9. Mars has enough water to sustatin the population of humans on earth.

      10. Mars is beautiful.

      The orginal post asked a good question. As geeks we should be able to reply it better.

      my 2cents.

    2. Re:Multitasking by Skyshadow · · Score: 2

      Er, of course, an awful lot of what you said just isn't remotely true...

      --
      Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
    3. Re:Multitasking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      Interesting? This post does not deserve a mod.

      I too am interested in a (non-dodging) answer to the question poseted by Jarad. Almost everytime such a question is posted, a Karma hungry geek wouldd cese the time to come and post a rant that has only 2% relevence to the question (and that too under a totally unrelated topic).

      I rate this as redundent, as overrated, as troll, as Offtopic.

      BTW, Jared, there is a good by Olemr Homes on the question of allocating resources in a post sept11 USA.

    4. Re:Multitasking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, if you know so much, can you point out what he said that isn't true? You seem to be lacking even the ability to post a decent reply. Just Karma whoring eh?

      crzzzzzzzzzzzzie@h0tmole.org

    5. Re:Multitasking by Skyshadow · · Score: 2
      I don't see why we need to get into name-calling. I'm willing to dispute some of your assertions, I just didn't think it necessary.

      Take #4: "You can wear a shirt during summer in Mars." You *could* wear a shirt, but even on the equater you'd die of the bends (and be very cold) -- the atmospheric pressure is very low on Mars, so walking out into it would be like bringing a sea creature used to an ocean trench up to sealevel.

      6: "Mars can be easily terraformed (I know the word is sickening)." Mars is really cold and has a very thin, non-oxygen atmosphere. These are rather challenging, especially considering that humans have never done this sort of thing before.

      #7: "Mars is a chance for us to start a world without infuence of religion (what c reates war?), since on Mars, no one would be able to utter (.. And so God create d the world and put adam on it..)" Huh? Where are you think the initial colonists are going to come from? Or do you think people will abandon faith just because they fly to another planet?

      This is getting absurd.

      #9: "Mars has enough water to sustatin the population of humans on earth." Maybe, but if there is, we sure haven't seen it.

      Anyhow, just like I said: No call for name-calling, asshead.

      --
      Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
    6. Re:Multitasking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      As a planetary scientist at the University of Arizona (Tucson). I would have to agree to all his points, expect the one about religion. I don't see anything glaringly wrong with any of the points, they are what we would write in a powerpoint presentation to visiting researchers or in our pst classes.

      Ruben

    7. Re:Multitasking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well then your not a very good scientist. Humans cannot survive at low pressures even if the temperature is 22 degrees. But hell, I am not a biologist so maybe they can :)

    8. Re:Multitasking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, they can. You just need to go through a pressure chamber. It's no biggie. We do this in space, dont we? How presurized do you think the average space suite was (till 84)?

      We adapt to pressure, it's sudden changes in pressure that leads to bends and so on. You can live in a low or high pressure (Mount everest or Tilea Gourge Base -- under water --) , if you properly go through the pressure based precautions first. Once you are there, you can live as normal as you can on sea level.

    9. Re:Multitasking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1. Mars is our closest planet, if something were to happen to Earth (eg: India a
      nd the Paki's destroy half the world), then we'd have to teleport there.


      Venus is closer, but to address the rest of the argument, if we were looking for a place to re-colonize, we'd probably go for the longer trip to Mars.

      2. Mars climate is not a challage, when compared to the rest of the planets.

      Admitted. Nearly impossible is more possible than completely impossible.

      3. Mars has massive qunatities of raw materials that would be essential to the c
      reation of life there.


      Not as far as water goes, but yes, there is plenty of rock and similar proportions of the usual 92 elements.

      4. You can wear a shirt during summer in Mars.

      The temperature during summer is fair enough, and the atmospheric pressure is suitable, however you obviously need to account for breathing and ultraviolet exposure.

      5. The gravity on Mars is almost that of Earth, thus people would not feel disor
      iented or loose bone mars. Also going to Mars for the elderly might be a good id
      ea (retirement homes in mars?) since bone degradation is much less in Mars as th
      at would be on Earth.


      Umm, less than half (38%) is "almost"? Also I'm not getting the bone degradation argument. Exposure to microgravity results in a loss of bone density, which is highly debilitating to astronauts returning to Earth-normal gravity. If the point is that elderly persons having a lesser bone-density than normal would have an easier time on Mars, I would concede that, but over time the effects of lesser gravity could cause their bones to weaken proportionally more, resulting in the same aches and pains.

      6. Mars can be easily terraformed (I know the word is sickening).

      Mars can be terraformed as easily as anything else can be terraformed. The real problem here is that we haven't terraformed anything yet, so the term really doesn't mean anything. We may come to find that "easily" terraformed means $10 trillion billion dollars and 10 trillion man hours, as opposed to those difficult terraforming jobs which cost 10x10e28 dollars.

      7. Mars is a chance for us to start a world without infuence of religion (what c
      reates war?), since on Mars, no one would be able to utter (.. And so God create
      d the world and put adam on it..).


      Yes, I'm sure the 90+% of people who subscribe to religion will just roll over and let that happen. Make sure you stock up on guns and nuclear weapons just in case any of those god-people try to come to Mars. Then you can just shoot them and--oops, you just created a war!

      8. Missions to Mars have already raised the standard of living for most of the w
      estern world through secondary inventions (Such as the digital Cameras used on S
      oujourner, which in turn became the base models of Digital cameras from Nikon, C
      annon, Sony, HP, Olympus and so on! This is one direct innovation from Missions
      to Mars).


      Whatever.

      9. Mars has enough water to sustatin the population of humans on earth.

      Not even close.

      10. Mars is beautiful.

      Whatever.

    10. Re:Multitasking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative
      Skyshadow,

      Given the following photograph of Mars, and knowing that the estimated albedo of the Earth's atmosphere, estimated from its composition, is of 0.75, try to predict the value of atmospheric pressure on the surface of the Red Planet.

      To start with, an overall albedo of Mars should be estimated, upon observation through a telescope (a photograph is not good enough in this case) and measurements of the intensity of the light reflected off the surface of Mars as compared . It is important to understand that in the calculation process students need to assess which of their assumptions and estimations is more inexact and thus impacts more the accuracy of the model. This assigned value of a global albedo of Mars with the given elements is, of course, quite uncertain, but it does not invalidate the method.

      In order to provide a working example, let us accept an overall albedo for Mars of 0.25.

      The next step is to appraise what percentage of the planet is occupied by the dark green vegetation like areas and how much of it is made up of the desert type of soil. Once this is determined we have to approximate a value for the albedo of each type of terrain.

      For example:

      - Dark area: 60% of the planet albedo 0.15

      - Desert area 40% of the planet albedo 0.06

      Weighted average 0.6*0.15+0.4*0.06=0.114

      If we estimated in this example that the overall albedo of Mars was 0.25, then the part of light absorbed by the atmosphere should be 0.25-0.114=0.136

      Considering then the albedo as a measurement of the ability of the atmosphere to scatter sunlight and as such proportional to the specific mass of the atmosphere, we could relate the mass of the Terrestrial atmosphere to that of the Martian atmosphere:

      Specific mass ratio = albedo of Martian atmosphere / albedo of Terrestrial atmosphere

      = 0.136 / 0.75 = 0.1813

      Now we can finally relate to atmospheric pressure. The atmospheric pressure can be defined as the force per unit area exerted by the mass of air on the surface, or in other words, the weight of the column of air on a unit of area. Having estimated the mass of the Martian atmosphere as a fraction of that of the Earth's atmosphere, we can easily relate it to the weight of the atmosphere by multiplying by the Martian gravity (0.38g)

      Atmospheric pressure on Mars = 0.1813 * 0.38 g = 0.0689 of the atmospheric pressure on Earth

      It is interesting to notice that from merely observing the planet we can go as far as to predict that the atmospheric pressure on Mars is approximately 7% of that on Earth.

      Even though this last value is not more than a rough estimate, it still yields very important information that allows us to conjecture about the climatic situation in the Red Planet. Regarding temperatures, if the atmosphere is quite thin and thus unable to sustain any warming greenhouse effect, given that Mars lies in a much colder region in the Solar System than the Earth, it must follow that Mars should be a very cold world.

      The apparently low atmospheric pressure has a profound impact on the climate of Mars and, in turn, on the possibilities of finding life on the surface. At such low atmospheric pressure added to very low temperatures, it would be very unlikely that liquid water could exit, even in trace amounts, on the surface. In effect, as pressure goes down the boiling point of a liquid descends, and even at very cold temperatures any liquid, including water, would vaporize instantly. Bearing in mind that liquid water constitutes, in a way, the operational definition for life as we know it, we can say that it would be improbable to find life on the surface of the Red Planet.

      I would say, if humans could live on mount Everst without a shirt (provided the weather is not cold enough), then they could do the same on the surface of Mars. But, at the same time, I would say that they'd die very soon. Not of bends, or anything to do with pressure. But of radiation overdose. (Read Red, Blue, Green Mars).
    11. Re:Multitasking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You expect multitasking from a country whose president can't watch TV and eat at the same time?

    12. Re:Multitasking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Plagiarizing is bad business. Perhaps you should cite your source of this material as "Space Based Astronomy: Teacher's Guide with Activities", NASA, EG-102, August 1994?
      You can get it online in PDF format.

    13. Re:Multitasking by csbruce · · Score: 2

      Look, spending the resources we currently expend on space travel isn't going to contribute substantially to work peace (nor hunger, nor overpopulation, nor keeping people from being laid off).

      World peace and hunger are not technological problems; they are entirely political. The only way to solve them is to eradicate all bullshit republics and regimes from planet Earth. This isn't a matter of spending; it is a matter of political will. To accomplish this, we must stop granting sovereignty to these bullshit regimes, declare self-determination to be a fundamental human right, and make all soverign nations sign a mutual-defence pact with the U.N. (in part as a condition of sovereignty). This would legally allow and require the U.N. to interdict if, for example, a coup was made against the government of Afghanistan (such as in 1996). When all nations are signed on, this would be the end of war.

      We could feed everyone on Earth today if we really wanted to (or at least, we'd be able to within a short number of months). Mostly, it's bullshit regimes, war, and third-world political corruption that prevents this.

      Overpopulation seems to me to be linked to general poverty. Industrialized nations naturally curb the birth rate, as it seems that only the poor can afford to have children. I'm guessing that a higher standard of living is realized in an industrialized nation without or with very few children, and with lots of children in third-world countries (since, if they live, they are your retirement security). Your retirement security in the first world is your career savings, if you manage to save, and public welfare if you don't.

      "People being laid off" is a very vague description of a problem. People are laid off for many reasons, normally, of course, because they are not actually doing something that is profitable (or even break-even-able). Preventing layoffs by subsidization is a waste of money and keeps people making unimportant things for no reason that people don't want, instead of having them do something actually useful. Basically, it's micro-scale communism, and communism succeeds best at equally distributing poverty.

      [After reading the whole of your message, I guess the highlighted idea is from someone else.]

    14. Re:Multitasking by Rinikusu · · Score: 1

      Actually, I would normally agree that "layoffs" were due to un-profitable areas. Unfortunately, in today's economic climate, layoffs are used to bolster bottom lines (temporarily) to increase stock price. Witness the airlines latest disaster. They receive billions in "Federal Welfare" to offset their losses with the ostensible purpose of preventing layoffs, but instead, the first thing they do is layoff most of their workforce. We could argue that the "workers" were not doing anything profitable (the airline industry was in a slump over safety concerns), but those "workers" were already paid for by OUR tax dollars. Had the airlines not received a bailout, I'd have said "yeah, lay em off". However, they DID get a bailout, like so many of our American corporations. And now, those same airlines are frantically hiring back those workers, who have been without pay for 2-4 months once they realized that their "slump" was no where near as severe as it was thought to be. What's more bullshit? That millionaire CEO's lay off tens of thousands while keeping their 7 digit salaries AND pocketing government subsidies, or that poor Joe Schmoe working the ticket counter who just lost his house because that same CEO would rather show his "profits" to his shareholders to bolster his own worth rather than keep Joe on for a few months to build business back up? Please, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say "Kill the Evil Corporation," but rather, kill the "Short Term Planning" frame of mind that depends on government (tax funded) bailouts that makes "Short Term Planning" feasible. Let corporations who can't stay in business fail. And, most certainly, don't allow corporations who RECEIVE government bailouts to fire their front-line, unskilled workers (many of whom are trying to go to school, raise families, etc) just so their stock values will increase, (just to turn around and hire those positions back with new employees with no seniority for less pay).

      As for "self-sovereignty", I suggest you also rethink that. Where do you draw the line? We yell and scream about "exclusionist" Turks oppressing Kurds, "exclusionist" Iraqi's doing the same, "exclusionist" taliban (who are more multi-ethnic than the "northern alliances") oppressing others, I mean, where do you draw the line and how? Whom gets the pie? States based upon RACE and FUNDAMENTALISM should be frowned upon and not supported, as both are intolerant of just about every other group except their own. Do we foster racism at the expense of *freedom*? Because that's exactly WHAT we are fostering when we support Israeli and/or Palestinian statism. Jews vs. Arabs. If I'm not mistaken, Israel has a very "exclusionary" government that prohibits native Palestinians from participating in the government process, hell, I'd be pissed, too. Unfortunately for the Palestinians, they want to create a sovereign nation to exclude JEWS (many of whom have been in the region for centuries) from the political process. Get rid of religious fundamentalism and refuse to support racist regimes (including those that advocate slave labor), quit giving them our money, quit building slave labor factories or contracting to slave labor factories, and you dry up their wells. Money is the factor here, as much as I sometimes hate to admit it. People, regardless of what they say, are greedy bastards. Anyway, this is waaay to involved for a slashdot posting, so I'll leave it at that.

      --
      If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
    15. Re:Multitasking by fredrik70 · · Score: 1

      NOt sure how pressurised the average space suit was would be interesting to know though, but I know that the astronauts have to breathe pure oxygen for ~4 hours before going for a space walk in order to avoid the bends so there's definetly something in what your're saying...
      Makes one smile a bit when you see actors in movies get ready for an emergency space walk in 5 mins ;-)

      --
      if (!signature) { throw std::runtime_error("No sig!"); }
  13. Earth defence forces, etc. by Alien54 · · Score: 1, Flamebait
    Well, there was always the martian defense forces.

    But these seemed to have retreated to the asteroid belt, allowing our intrepid explorer to plant the flag of Earth, and stand guard as a lone sentry against the terrorists of the outer solar system.

    Stand proud, little space probe!

    --
    "It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
  14. exciting results by solitaryrpr · · Score: 4, Funny

    Actually, the preliminary exciting results would be that it didn't crash into the planet or just disappear.

  15. I am really for space travel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The way the earth is headed today, it is no wonder why the government is spending so much of the taxpayer's money towards space travel research. Soon the world will become uninhabitable and the only way for the human race to survive is by colonizing space.

  16. Insightful my ASS! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This guy's lame ass post was modded as
    insightful? This whole thread is quite
    obviously a troll. The original post was
    "...too close to the Sun...", Those
    people posting at insightful & interesting
    to this troll post are the very same people
    who want to give Wes Crusher a nasty
    ass-tongueing. The very same people who like
    to watch their moms take a shit. The very same
    people who are gay homosexual faggot queers.
    The very same people who like to give handjobs
    to their dogs. The very same people who like to
    suck stranger's cocks in Rock Creek Park. Fuck all these people.

  17. This is all good, but... by cliffy2000 · · Score: 0, Troll

    Are they sure to be using ONLY metric or ONLY US measurements? 'cause all this aerobraking stuff sounds nice and dandy, but if they're mistakenly using inches instead of cm in one measurement when computing the trajectory, this thing's going straight past the planet...

    1. Re:This is all good, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually if they used inches, then they wouldn't be so bad off. If they used cm when they meant to use inches, then they'd be introuble. (cm is smaller)

    2. Re:This is all good, but... by Markus+Landgren · · Score: 2, Informative

      As the basic rule, all measurements are metric this time. Some of the mechanical components are in US measurements simply because the aerospace industry has always made them that way and a special order of metric components would be much more expensive. However, every time a US measurement is used it is explicitly accompanied by it's metric conversion in the spacecraft's documentation.

  18. Guys, I was making a JOKE... by Tsar · · Score: 2

    There's obviously no such thing as "regenerative aerobraking." My comment was mainly about the fact that by using aerobraking, they cut a few million off the launch costs. That's going to be invaluable in the future, as science budgets continue to be stripped to the bone.

    Why anyone took the incredibly dry witticism at the end seriously is beyond me. Perhaps I should have used more vermouth.

    1. Re:Guys, I was making a JOKE... by FredGray · · Score: 1
      Why anyone took the incredibly dry witticism at the end seriously is beyond me. Perhaps I should have used more vermouth.

      OK, I'll clarify why I took it seriously. There are plenty of total morons who post to slashdot who wouldn't have known that "regenerative aerobraking" is impossible. I'm very glad to hear that you aren't one of them, and I apologize for finding you guilty by association.

    2. Re:Guys, I was making a JOKE... by ndevice · · Score: 1

      well, there's always the possibility of magnetic braking - even though it doesn't sound as cool as areobraking. The shuttle did an experiment a while ago where they stuck out a long wire (in a loop) and had it generate so much current that it melted the wire or blew a fuse. Obviously that power came from potential energy from the shuttle's orbit thereby slowing it down or dropping it's orbit. Imagine what all that power could be used for: for the braking phase, the probe could be sending out really strong radio signals if it's transmitter didn't get fried first.

      But then mars doesn't have a magnetic field. Pity. It might be workable for Jupiter or some other magnetic-field-endowed planet though.

    3. Re:Guys, I was making a JOKE... by Tsar · · Score: 3, Informative

      The experiment you refer to involved a tethered satellite. It was performed on February 25, 1996, and as miles of tether were unrolled, the dynamo current grew just as predicted. The tether was almost entirely unrolled when it broke near the shuttle's end, whipping off into the void. The shuttle crew tracked the satellite by radio for several minutes, then lost contact.

      After the mission, the tether was examined on Earth, and was found to have been melted through. Turns out the core of the cable was a porous material that had atmospheric-pressure air trapped in it during manufacture. The air leaked out through pinholes in the outer insulation and was quickly converted, by the high voltage (~3500V) of the tether, to a plasma far denser and more conductive than the surrounding ionosphere. Instruments indicated that the plasma diverted a full ampere of current (at 3500 volts) through the insulator pinholes, enough to melt through the cable.

      That's why they don't let astronauts EVA any more without gloves.

      OffTopic: That last line was a feeble joke, similar to the one in my original post. That post was modded up three points (by those who took "regenerative aerobraking" seriously) before being modded down five (by those who take mismoderation seriously). Is there a record for the number of mod points, both up and down, assigned to a single comment?

    4. Re:Guys, I was making a JOKE... by BlowCat · · Score: 1

      I remember seeing 35 mod points on a comment saying that dropping nukes on Japan in WWII was justified.

  19. Astroturfing by Skyshadow · · Score: 2
    Take a good look around this parent's thread and ask yourself: Do all of the anonymous cowards sound a little similar?

    I've seen astroturfing on Slashdot before, but this is a pretty lame example of such.

    --
    Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
    1. Re:Astroturfing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I see a lot of posts by you. I dunno about Astrotrufing, but maybe you're taking this /. biz a bit too personal, eh man. Anyway. Have fun, I guess your through one of those moods again ;)

      Also, isn't astroturfing supposed to mean something else? (I did a dict just to be certain and the Jargon reply came). Something interesting from this reply...

      "This [the use of the term Astroturfing at the courts] backfired horrribly, angering a number of state attorneys-general enough to induce them to go public with plans to join the Fedral suit. It also set anybody defending Microsoft on the net for the accusation `You're just Astroturfing!`."

      Now, isn't that last bit quite fitting for you :) No offence. I know you post quite defencive posts, but this is just slashdot. It's for fun man :)

  20. Dickhead moderators by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can't beleive some cock sucking moderator wasted a mod point on moding the parent off topic, when they should be blasted the parent's parent for being REDUNDENT

    1. Re:Dickhead moderators by volpe · · Score: 1

      My post was *not* redundant. There were no other posts when I posted it, and right after I posted it there were a grand total of three posts, including mine (the other two were trolls). Therefore mine was one of the first three posts to this story, so where do you get off calling it "redundent" [sic]?

    2. Re:Dickhead moderators by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      Hey Dickhead, you just reposted what is in the artical. How is that NOT redundent? Hello McFly; it's not like NASA is going to get /.ed.

    3. Re:Dickhead moderators by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Redundant" usually refers to posting the same comment that someone else posted, not mirroring the article. And what makes you think that NASA devotes enough resources to the web server to make them more immune to a slashdotting than any other site? I can't imagine people are routinely hitting NASA every day that they expect this sort of thing.

      And the name's not McFly. It's Eastwood.

  21. Scientific goals by ukryule · · Score: 2
    The main goals of the mission are:
    Goal 1: Determine whether Life ever arose on Mars
    Goal 2: Characterize the Climate of Mars
    Goal 3: Characterize the Geology of Mars
    Goal 4: Prepare for Human Exploration

    So they are at least investigating if (and when) human colonisation is feasible.

    For the more general question of why NASA is mucking about in space, have a look at some of the FAQs.
    It seems one of most common questions is 'Can I apply to take a ride on the Space Shuttle?' (A very polite 'No' in case you were wondering. Presumably the Russian Space Agency have a different answer to this one ...)
    1. Re:Scientific goals by susano_otter · · Score: 2

      Goal 5: CowboyNeal

      --

      Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.

    2. Re:Scientific goals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Beware, if they find out they can build a pipeline there, they will start a phony "war on terrorism" and bomb everything to bits.

  22. $3 Crack? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I like how the first on-topic post gets modded down as Redundant. Overrated, maybe but how is this redundant?

    1. Re:$3 Crack? by Unbeliever · · Score: 1
      but how is this redundant?


      It is redundant because the entire article is in the link provided in the article summary.

      --
      --Carlos V.
  23. Hey dumb-fucks: thread is troll by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Quite clearly the original post is a troll.

    >>"Human colonization is quite unlikely due to the plant being so close to the Sun."

    And to think people are attemping to make intelligent replies...

    Furthermore I would like to point out that
    winXP is far superior to linux and it's only
    costing $99.00US!!

  24. The same old space exploration posts... by Guppy06 · · Score: 5, Funny

    I swear, Slashdot could post the most mundane story about space exploration, and it still draws the same old complaints about this and that, the usual space trolls. I'm just going to respond to them all here for future linkage.

    1.) If you have difficulty understanding exploration for it's own sake then you aren't "all for exploration."

    2.) If we knew of all the ways we could use and develop (insert name of celesial body here), then we wouldn't need to explore it, now would we?

    3.) Yes there are people dying in (insert Third World country here) of (insert Horseman of Apocalypse here). The reasons for these deaths are purely political in nature. Money is not the solution to all problems just as it isn't the root of all evil. If anything it becomes a scapegoat for the real causes of strife. I don't see how not spending the money on space exploration and letting Congress (of all people) spend it on (choice of one or more of the following: junkets, political campaigns, television commercials, Jesse Jackson, economic incentives, UN resolution, Jimmy Carter, "peace-keeping" expedition) to "make the world a better place" is really going to change a damned thing. (Name of two opposing ethnic, religious, or political groups here) need to talk to each other, and dangling money in front of their noses isn't going to get them to do that, it will just get them to chase that money.

    4.) As for education reform, go talk to your state and local governments. If you don't know why you should be talking to them instead of the federal government, then you are an example of how badly we need education reform.

    5.) Do you have any idea how small a percentage of the federal budget is spent on space exploration?

    6.) We are NOT on the verge of nuclear war! At worst, the only countries on the verge of nuking each other are (names of two nuclear powers that didn't sign non-proliferation agreements)! And they aren't the ones sending up these probes, are they?

    7.) With all the problems there are in the world today... why would you want to live in the world today? (name of celestial body) looks like a damned good alternative to me!

    1. Re:The same old space exploration posts... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let's say we actually did go out of our way to make the world a "better place". So what happens:

      Everyone gets fed, educated, a job (well, just assume this anyway), and in general the standard of living goes up everywhere. Ok, great. But what happens behind the scenes.

      Now that everyone has income they will start buying stuff...houses, cars, geek toys, etc. Great right? But with those come manufacturing costs. Not money wise, but resource wise. Houses cost lumber so the rain forests get cut down much faster. Sure, we could build houses out of brick or something, but there would be enough demand for wood houses to be a problem. Plus, the demand for 'stuff' would dramatically increase and there's bound to be some reliance on lumber there.

      Then there is the problem with cars and the like. You'd need hella more oil or you'd need some sort of replacement (hydrogen/methane/water/solar or the like). To make these, there would be all sorts of environmental pollution (not from running the cars, but from making them).

      Then you'd have cities, growing out and destroying the environment. Fly into LA or Chicago and look at the sky...then imagine that smog everywhere...

      By now you see the point. The only thing saving the world would do would be hasten the world's end. We simply don't have the technological ability yet to save everyone and provide them with a Western life. That's exactly why we need things like space exploration and the like because they lead to the creation of technology that gets adapted to Earth-based needs. Imagine the stuff we'd learn about keeping people alive by sending some people to Mars and back...keeping someone alive for a year in the most hostile environment will necessitate the creation of things that could save the lives of poor schmucks in (3rd World Country).

      Exploring space would help save the world in a sense.

    2. Re:The same old space exploration posts... by Supa+Mentat · · Score: 1

      I would just like to say that I love you. Because now I don't have to go and tell it like it is, and I hate having to type that much over trolls.

      --
      "A witty saying proves nothing." - Voltaire
    3. Re:The same old space exploration posts... by snake_dad · · Score: 2

      Wow... I'm surprised that people are still posting replies to the article. Maybe they don't read the comments first :-)

      Anyway, option 7 needs a bit of tinkering. (name of celestial body) might be "Sun", and while that would be a damn good alternative for some people I could think of...

      --
      karma capped .sig seeking available Slashdot poster for long-term relationship.
    4. Re:The same old space exploration posts... by (void*) · · Score: 2

      Point 5 needs to be emphasized for the idiots who really don't get it. The proportion of money that gets spent on space exploration, compared to the federal budget spent on other things, that it makes every one of their objections sound like self-interested assholes.

  25. Don't be so hard on them! by Nindalf · · Score: 3, Funny

    You think it's easy to make space probes that work perfectly?!

    They have to launch these fragile robots through the harsh interplanetary void, always mere inches -- no wait, was it centimeters? maybe cubits... fathoms? -- from disaster...

    1. Re:Don't be so hard on them! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      heh, nice!! Nice, subtle reference to metric/english snafu, especially the way you only realize it when you reach the word disaster at the end, which sounds very bathosy. perfect +5

  26. Hee hee... by Nindalf · · Score: 2

    I'll be chuckling over that for days...

    How about regenerative ferrobraking? Shoot iron slugs from an accelerator at the spacecraft, and have it catch them in a magnetic field and throw them back to the accelerator. No propellant loss, spectacular efficiency, works for starting as well as for stopping. Accuracy is problematic.

  27. Darn.. we missed! by Restil · · Score: 3, Funny

    Nasa once again launched a spacecraft at Mars. However, due to inaccurate calculations, the spacecraft missed its target and instead settled in a stable orbit, unable to crash into the planet and achieve its intital objective. A preliminary investigation blames a slight miscalculation due to the improper use of significant digits.

    Mission planners are uncertain how to proceed now that the mission has been officially declared a failure. "We now have a $250 million piece of equipment uselessly orbiting the planet." A small group of scientists has declared the mission "not a total loss" as this might present a rare opportunity to study the planet before the orbiter crashes into the planet naturally at some later date.

    -Restil

    --
    Play with my webcams and lights here
  28. Of Course by global_diffusion · · Score: 1

    This text is already on the internet. Obviously there is no need to mirror it...

  29. Re:As others will surely also state... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    to define intelligence as the way humans think and talk. Let's us treat all the "lower" animals just like they deserve.

    I equate intelligence to survival. In that regard everything that is alive has the intelligence to survive in a set of environments. How many people get killed every year doing something very stupid? They are postumously given the "Darwin Award" if they manage to kill themself in a humourous enough manner. These people can talk, do math, read, and yet they manage to lack the common sence of a dog.

    Most people, if left on their own, in the mountains, in winter time, would die within a matter of days. Being able to do long division and talk really won't help you there. Just ask the Donner Party. But bears, deers, wolves, birds and scores and scores of other "animals" seem to live through the mountain winters just fine. In fact, they thrive in it.

    A man that is cast into the Atlantic Ocean will only last 40 minutes tops before he dies. If he has a boat he may last a week. Not too smart, eh? But a dolphin can survive just fine. In fact wild dolphins have been known to tow people back to shore, saving their lives. There is also no known attacks by dolphins on humans in the wild.

    If we judge a species intelligence by compassion, and "humanity" then dolphins far out strip our own meager facilities in that regard. Funny that we coined the term "humanity" for a set of morals and behaviors that most humans are lacking in.

    Maybe dolphins save us because they recognize in us a kindred spirit? Sad that we don't return that regard.

    We are far less smart than we think we are. Even myself.

  30. Nuclear war? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    We are NOT on the verge of nuclear war!

    I won't argue that the potential for nuclear war is an odd argument against space exploration, but are you so sure of your statement, and, if so, why? If you're just assuming that "the Cold War is over so things are basically OK" then your assumptions are wrong. A little education wouldn't hurt. (The linked article was written by a former US Senator; there are other articles and resources on that site that may open your eyes a bit. Then again, many people are too apathetic to bother learning the facts when media views and "common sense" are so much more easy to digest.)

    1. Re:Nuclear war? by Guppy06 · · Score: 1

      "but are you so sure of your statement, and, if so, why?"

      Yes, because Bush and Putin are getting along better than even Reagan and Gorbachev did in Iceland, and anybody else with ICBM capabilities doesn't have the number of boosters, warheads, or nerve to go against the US arsenal.

    2. Re:Nuclear war? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only nations that might be on the verge of nuclear war is Pakistan and India, and even that doesn't seem too likely. Anyone that uses nukes against anyone is likely to get bombed to death by the US, especially if the target is in any way economically connected to the US.

    3. Re:Nuclear war? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      ...Bush and Putin are getting along better than even Reagan and Gorbachev did...

      Go to the site that was linked in the message to which you are replying and do some reading as was suggested. It wouldn't matter if they were blood brothers; the risk is still very real and immediate.

    4. Re:Nuclear war? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ah, very nice, so it's "just" india and pakistan, and the US would nuke either one if they used nukes, eh? you're some kinda cretin. ever notice how the US is downwind of that potential nuclear battleground? "sorry, joe kansas, you'll have to find a cave to live in until the fallout is less lethal... so your great-great-great grandchildren might be able to venture out for a few minutes at a time." sorry, you're moronic prattle is meaningless.

  31. CAVEAT by JJ · · Score: 2

    What you say is absolutely true of space exploration. It is slightly less true of commercial/ military uses of space. I have a problem with the two sharing one budget. Space exploration itself is very cheap, the most expensive probes cost pennies per inhabitant of the Earth. Space commercialization is considerably less cheap. The two do overlap somewhat (launch devices, technology development, etc) but it is high time that we had a seperate, ongoing committed budget for space exploration.

    --
    So long and thanks for all the fish . . . !!!
  32. Aerobraking - 8 years early by meadd00d · · Score: 1
    Didn't Clarke have aerobraking tried for the first time in 2010: Odyssey II? Looks like we're finally ahead of schedule on something.

    *f*

    1. Re:Aerobraking - 8 years early by Analog+Squirrel · · Score: 1

      Wasn't aerobraking used for one of the Jupiter probes? I don't think is was Galileo, but I seem to recall that it had been used on a previous mission...

      --
      I'd rather be flying
  33. Re:As others will surely also state... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I equate intelligence to survival
    The moon's survived for four billion years. Does that make it intelligent?

  34. Is JPL slashdoted? by MrJones · · Score: 0

    I can't get a traceroute to mars.jpl.nasa.gov and get timeouts on http
    Maybe it is /.ted?

    Any info?

    --
    Get my e-mail after a captcha test in: http://tinymailt
  35. Re:As others will surely also state... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    OTOH, how long does the wolf survive in the Sahara and the dolphine in the Himalaya ? There have been more men surviving winters in the mountains and long journey on water than wolves/dolphines in the mentioned environments. Intelligence is the ability to cope with NEW problems/environments not with those that were present eons ago.

  36. why not venus by applejacks · · Score: 1

    Let's go to venus. It has a really thick atmosphere. Lots of CO2 there too. Drop off a couple of palm trees and contianers of cenapede grass and we got Venusian paradise.

    Probably would be more complicated than that but Venus interests me more than Mars.

    oh well

  37. Not quite... by RKloti · · Score: 1

    I believe you've slightly misinterpreted the mission's goals. The aim was (and is) to check the feasability of human exploration, not colonisation. What they are talking about here is that potential (ie. unlikely, but not yet entirely ruled out) mission to Mars around 2020. The mission involves a handfull of astronauts, and will presumably cost hundereds of billions, if not trillions, of US dollars.

    NASA isn't interested in colonising Mars, they're a US goverment organisation that has to look reasonably credible in the scientific community, not just some ad hoc space colonisation advocacy organisation a la SSI.

  38. Obvious difference by markmoss · · Score: 2

    It seems one of most common questions is 'Can I apply to take a ride on the Space Shuttle?' (A very polite 'No' in case you were wondering. Presumably the Russian Space Agency have a different answer to this one ...)

    Why the Russians will sell space rides and NASA won't: the Russians aren't worried about being sued if the thing explodes.

  39. I recommend Diaspora... by devphil · · Score: 2


    ...a truly excellent hard-SF book, in which a gamma-ray burster plays a major role. The math gets deep at times; just keep slogging through it and your mind will be expanded. (Possibly painfully.)

    --
    You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
  40. Lunar colony a good idea twice... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    First, because it's so shallow gravitationally that landing (or, in bulk, crashing) raw materials from the asteroids is cheaper in terms of delta vee than landing on Mars with twice the gravity of Luna. Delta vee is your biggest long term expense, and if we won't have cheap fusion for yet another fifty years (it's been fifty years off since at least 1945), solar power in lunar orbit is easier than in martian orbit due to the inverse square law and Luna's closer distance from the Sun. If something goes drastically wrong, you're less than three days from Earth (remember the researcher in Antarctica with breast cancer? She could get treatment a lot faster than if she'd been on a Hohmann orbit to Mars) and all those hospitals. I know there are bugger-all volatiles on the Moon (which was the slag left after a plume of material blew off the proto-Earth when it was hit by a Mars-sized body), but eventually we can get volatiles from the outer solar system cheaper (in delta vee terms) than launching them from Earth, and Mars, although it has far more volatiles than Luna, is more expensive from which to launch and has an atmosphere that at this point is more nuisance than benefit: both Luna and Mars will kill you if you run out of air, and the Moon can be used far more easily to vent poisonous industrial gasses as part of industrial processes with no downside (the lunar gravity will always be too slight for a breathable atmosphere, whereas Mars can be terraformed to a shirtsleave atmosphere within a millenium).

    Secondly, the Moon is more typical of the kinds of places most people will be living within the next five hundred years (not that the Earth's population will be transferred, any more than Europe's population dropped by colonization of North and South America: rather, population in the New World expanded due to new births onsite), and it behooves us to learn how to settle airless rocks, whether Moon-sized, or, more likely, smaller, colder and more distant worlds). Luna at least has the advantage of lots of sunlight since it's so close in. The Oort Cloud will eventually be the most populated region of the solar system, but that's another post on another day. Planets are simply too heavy and too wasteful of useful potential volume to make good places to live. And they are not very steerable.