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Dot-Commers vs. Government Contractors
StrangeBeer writes: "When the dot-Com movement went bust, it sent thousands of former employees running for cover (or the unemployment line, whichever was closer). One place they didn't go was the way of the Government Contractor who, incidentally, is doing just fine right now with or without a recession. Various reasons are given for this and one I'd like to point out is that the government managers would rather hire an underqualified person with a security clearance and later train them in their tradecraft. The vast majority of these kinds of employees are coming from other kinds of federal work (military, civil service, etc.) and not defunct dot-Com companies."
I'd like to second this. I got VERY lucky... just coming out of college and looking for my first job, I NEEDED something in the area, stable, and with decent pay. I found a job as a webmonkey (with training opportunities for database programming and multimedia) for the FDA's Center For Devices and Radiological Health.
The practical upshot is that I got lots of great training via the Killing-- err, the Learning Tree, expanded my skills tremendously, started out with a fairly eeeh salary but am now living quite comfortably... and most importantly, I did all of right at the start of the .Com Crash.
If I had jumped in on the corporate entry level (not that there were many jobs for someone who previously thought Cold Fusion was a physics thing) I'd probably have bounced around a couple jobs, maybe had to move once or twice, and definitely not had the ability to save money and get nice and financially stable. While others were auctioning off their Aeron chairs to afford cold cans of beans, I was sittin' pretty on my cheapo Ikea office stool (with homemade padding).
There are drawbacks. One, you don't start out with the Hat Made Of Money. If you can live 'comfortably' and likely single without needing a ferrari, this is not a huge hurdle. Two, if you're young, a lot of government employees are not. I'm the youngest guy in my office by about ten years. Three, no, the work is not very sexy. I view work as a means to an end (end meaning "$$$" which I spend on things I WANT to do). If a sexier job with the same amount of stability pops up, I'll go for it, but until then make mine federal.
WTF does it matter if you've spent the last few years working for the government, a big corporation, or a dot-com-then-dot-bomb? What matters is if you're a good programmer, with the skills to analyze, plan for, and solve a specific programming problem.
Or are we really talking about managerial types, who are essentially the same (they're all suits, regardless of the color of the suit) but who love to make up fake differences for themselves and segregate into the "fast-moving, innovative" dot-bombers vs. the "disciplined, dependable" gov't and big-corp types? In which case, why should real techies care? Management will always be management, and they'll always have their turf wars and suit-speak, but meantime, those of with real technical skills will always be the ones who get the job done. It's not the corporate structure that matters. It's the quality of the code.
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
I was offered two positions three years ago. One was from a large government contractor, the other from a startup. Both offers were for the same amount of money. Both were within a reasonable commute distance. The large government contractor had the need for a security clearance. This I had no problems with, I even filled out 27 plus pages of forms to get that process started. The other company offered stock options which may or may not have paid off.
I opted to go with my current company instead of the large government contractor and boy am I glad. A year after I joined I was saying to my co-workers.... "wow, here we are, stock is worth a bundle, and at the large government contractor I could still be waiting for my security clearance.
Despite all that has happened in the markets. I'm still very glad that I made the choice that I did.
The main reason I made the choice though was NOT money (same base salary) was NOT stock options (they are nice though) but was rather culture. I frankly didn't want to wear a suit to work. I still don't.
I'm happy in the fast paced commercial environment. And guess what? We are selling software to the Federal Government as well as Global 2000 and Fortune 500 companies AND to the large government contractor that I didn't take the job from.
And right now I'm wearing Jeans and a T-Shirt.
42 - So long and thanks for all the fish.
And yet you were saying how us at SAIC are "scary" a couple of months ago 'cause we do all kinds of secret stuff :)
Truth is, working at a government contractor is great right now - especially a defense contractor, which SAIC is. Our stock is going up. We've got thousands of openings. We're hiring, not laying off. The benefits are great.
The problem is, it takes discipline. I'm only 20, so this is something I had to learn the hard way. I'm still learning. Government contractors are different. They do require documentation. They want to know exactly how you made the broken software work so that if you do get hit by a bus, someone else can make it work. It's serious business. Unfortunately, not many from the dot-com bust really seem to understand this. It's a shame too, 'cause we miss out on a lot of talent simply because people don't understand the scope of what we're doing and how it must be complete and perfect because lives depend on it.
Those who do get it though... this is the place to be. You couldn't ask for anything more.
(OT: Where do you work again wiredog?)
Every once in a while I like to masturbate a new word into my vocabulary, even if I don't know what it means.
I totally agree, going back to an earlier slashdot article about the CMM, and code coming in on time, and under budget. Only two organizations have a level 5 rating, one is NASA, and the other is the ALC out of Ogden, which just so happens to be an Air Force coding shop (among other things).
government managers would rather hire an underqualified person with a security clearance and later train them in their tradecraft
What bullshit. Government managers want somebody with 10 years of Java experience to come and work for $35,000/year. Then, once you get in, they remove all incentive for you to advance by promising cushy benefits, annual COLAs, and best of all, job security. Here at NIH, it took almost two years for a grossly incompetent worker to be fired, simply becuase of the bureaucratic crap they had to wade through. There are techs here who let their NT 4 MCSE certifications lapse because our institute is primarily a Novell shop (although we use Exchange, we have no full-time Exchange admin); when I asked if they were planning to go for the upgrade to Win2K, they said "why bother? I don't need it" That's the kind of attitude they have here.
Then there's the condescending view all government employees have of contractors. That Dilbert cartoon a few months ago where the contractor is asked to bring his own air? It's not a joke.
I hate it here. As soon as I pass my Oracle certification tests, I'm out of here, and the federal government can kiss my fucking ass.
I use Macs for work, Linux for education, and Windows for cardplaying.
Working for the government is a double-edge sword where I work. I'm also a contractor working at a government facility.
At first, I did it our of desperation, since I got out of the Army last August, and there were serious hiring freezes in effect. "Infantry Platoon Leader" doesn't garner accolades with normal businesses.
Government work was a no-brainer for me, I had the clearance already, all I had to do is basically show up. Yes, I have to wear slacks and shirts with collars on them, but all in all, not to bad a situation, considering where the economy is.
My problem is lack of challenge. Everything is pretty backwards here. Users are expected to backup and install their own software, and print/sharing is basically all we have, but that doesn't matter, because God knows where the hell everything is anyway. Desktops and Laptops that come with Win2k are immediately downgraded to Windows 98 first edition, because it takes a LONG TIME to get anything approved. Every piece of software and hardware that we buy has to go through 3 comittees before approval. (Yep, even that printer cable).
We're running some sort of hybrid Novel 3.x network with some hastily thrown together login scripts, 10 Exchange servers that go down all the time (I believe it's 5.5 they are running), and some Computer Associates stuff that has yet to do anything. Some people even use Ghost to install client software, but only certain people are 'authorized', so all in all, the Dell Desktops (not allowed to buy anything else) are the default install, complete with AOL icons and everything. The typical 'security bulletin' is "Everyone go to Windows Update."
Of course, the mail system is clogged by the 'normal' US Army 300MB Powerpoint presentation that needs to be forwarded to multiple people, multiple times, at least three times a day. That's always great over our antiquated network.
What I don't know is if this is a typical situation in corporate America. I know other government agencies are more advanced, but its definately not us. I would like to know, because I'm pretty darn sure that Outlook shared calendars and Powerpoint "collaboration" using file sharing is considered enterprise level.
If that's the ONE great thing about working for the government, there's never a shortage of stuff to do.
Look at TRW Space and defence in Redondo beach CA, look at BAE Systems in San Diego. Those places are cutting edge. I don't understance the "2nd or 3rd rate" comment, definitly troll.
Remember that ARPANET was developed by government contractors.
Job for life mentality? What does that mean? Their company offers a pension instead of stock options that may well evaporate? They offer job security? Those things are more important as you grow older and get married and whatnot.
I interviewed with TRW. (Didn't take it because I decided I didn't like Cali). One of the people that I was interviewed by was actually a telemetry engineer for the Apollo 13 mission. That was cool.
The reason that a lot of places don't get much attention is that most of the really cool stuff to work on is rated DOD Top secret.
So I left the Valley and now I'm a defense contractor in the southeast. Nice job. Doesn't pay as well, but I don't have continual nightmares about overdue projects and the sort of chronic stress that's imposed from all sides in the entrepreneurial environment.
The article makes way too much of this sort of hostility between the two camps. I haven't seen any of that. What I have seen is a good amount of respect for the technology skills that I am bringing to the table, all of which were picked up in the commercial world.
Even though we deal with legacy system integrations issues, it's not a technology backwater here ... they avoid Fortran here ... they like Java here ... just like everyone else. And HLA is basically CORBA as designed by Duke Nukem ... lots of cool weapons to fire.
There isn't any of this vengeful kick-them-when-they're-down attitude that the article portrays. Perhaps this is because there isn't a whole lot of substance to this article, so the author felt obliged to manufacture some.
I also think the perception of defense contracters as technology underacheivers is unfounded. We seem to have the same percentage of motivated, smart people here that we did in the dot-com arena.
We also have the same number of doltish poltroons, of course. The non-performers here, though, are here more for the security and laid-back pace. They aren't the collection of half-skilled flakes, con-artists, and hangers-on, all pulled by the lure of easy money, that dot-coms usually accumulate to ride on the coattails of the star developers.
And it is very strange working on a project that has a delivery date 5 years out. In the commercial world, this thing would be on a (highly unrealistic) 6 month track, and would probably end in a complete cluster-fuck because we'd be throwing shit out there before we even understand the problem.
And as a bonus, I can read /. now ...
I think that different branches of the government have different hiring priorities, and it's hard to generalize about "the government" as a single institution.
I don't have any military background, as either a contractor or soldier, but I believe the posts about the military preferring experience over domain-specific training. However, I do have experience with civil administration (more than I should have, really) and my experience has been that education is very highly valued. I expect that most of the PhD's in Philosophy who aren't teaching or flipping burgers work for the government. I've certainly heard that the State Department is that way...the great salt lick of social science PhD's who don't go on to teach.
Having said that, I'll go ahead and generalize about the government vs. the private sector--there's a huge difference in views on equal opportunity. I not-to-recently moved in the opposite direction--from government & education to the private sector--and it sure looks like all white folks all the time to me. When I point this out to management, they give me a very thinly veiled "but they'll steal the office supplies!" speech, and insist that they need to go check their voice mail. Maybe it's just the particular company I work for, or the Midwest, but it feels like there are very different ideas about EOE.
SAIC? hmm... I seem to remember projects with a project manager, scheduler, assistant, 3 researchers, 3 configuration managers, 2 client interface managers, 1 release manager, a build manager, 2 guys sleeping in their offices (no kidding), 1 guy who's entire job was to cut tapes, and 4 actual programmers, working 80 hour weeks because the project was constantly late. Can you name a single, successful commercial product that SAIC has produced? I heard of plenty of failed government projects that SAIC did. Something about SAIT (a subdivision of SAIC) having the FBI come in and take their records because they produced fake demos for a helicopter targeting system? You couldn't get fired for sleeping in your office, but if you said that a project wasn't going well, or that its management was incompetent, you might as well start looking for another job. There are commercial firms that are professional software development organizations which don't have these guys piling on their projects. I never saw this much waste at Microsoft or Adobe, and I don't think anyone would call them dot-coms. You may be able to look down at your nose at these ex-HTML jocks, but the software developers who create commercial products like Oracle, AutoCAD, and PhotoShop get the job done quickly, efficiently, and professionally. Enjoy your moment of Schadenfreude.
Speaking as a government contractor...Me to!
There is a factor you young-uns out there should consider, too, especially you young "hackers": Don't do anything that could screw up your being able to get a security clearance.
If you think it's fun when you do it on the sly, try doing it for real! (Disclaimer: I don't, but I know those who do). Break into things for a living? MONDO fun, and I wish I did that.
Sadly, I gather a good paycheck for trying to design features into the systems to stop them. But that money depends on a clearance, too.
With a clearance, many things become possible that would otherwise land you in jail.
READ the US Constitution, the Bill of Rights and the other amendments! http://lcweb2.loc.gov/const/const.html
Back in the mid 80's I answered a knock at the door of the house I shared with some college classmates to be greeted by a guy in a suit with a badge. Fortunately, I'd been warned. A former roommate was getting a security clearance and they were interviewing friends, etc.
;).
Now I knew he'd been honest and confessed to some consumption of some flammable refreshments. I didn't let the agent in the door (too much evidence lying around) but did answer his questions, agreeing with what my roommate had said. He got his clearance.
Several years later, I got a secret clearance (which I never used) by also being honest. They seemed to be mainly interested in whether my drug use could be used to blackmail me (did my parents know, etc.) and whether I was still doing it
I test software for the Space Station. We have a goal of 1 defect per 20,000 lines of code that
goes out the door. What's a comparable goal in the commercial world?
We have twice as many people testing the code
as we have writing the code.
If MS Word crashes in a commercial office, no
big deal. If the code that I test crashes,
it can kill the crew or destroy the Space Station.
The point is that government projects often
involve critical systems, where screw-ups will
kill people (or worse). So the whole software
development process is geared to getting it
right. That means analysing the task, writing
the software requirements, writing the code,
testing exhaustively to prove you met the
requirements, and each step of the way cross-
checking your work with the other guys.
The requirements guy sends his document to the
coder and tester to make sure he doesn't write
requirements that can't be coded or tested.
Likewise, as a tester I pass my test procedure
back to the requirements guy and coder to
make sure I covered the requirements and I
understood how the code is supposed to work.
This takes a lot of work and time, but you know
what, we put up around 35 MBytes of embedded flight
software up there (not counting the astronaut
laptops). The hardware that software
controls was never all put together except
on orbit. And it worked. Sure, there were
bugs in the code. But by and large it
worked the first time.
Daniel
The benefits are outstanding: interesting work, job for life, cushy retirement, two months vacation a year (18 days, plus every other Friday off if you work a 9x80 schedule, which it's stupid not to do).
Exactly one year ago, I quit and went back to private industry, where I had spent most of my working life. Am I nuts? Well, yes, but apart from that, here are some of my reasons:
So it's now a year later. My job is no longer guaranteed (but I've survived two layoffs so far). I don't get Fridays off. My stock options are worthless.
Any regrets? Nope! I'm still ecstatic, enjoying the work, the people, and the sense that if I'm still employed, it's because I am still somewhat competent. It's a wonderful feeling.
2) Lots of military types in upper management.
My last company was like this. In fact, in the company people who weren't ex-military were in the minority. I had no problem with it - most of the military types in upper management were good, realistic managers. They didn't promise customers stuff they couldn't deliver, and they were excellent time managers, so we only worked long hours in the immediate runup to delivery dates, and even then only sometimes.
In my current company most of upper management are business school types. They couldn't run a piss-up in a brewery, and would sell their own grandmothers to a glue factory if they thought it would provide a revenue stream/increase shareholder value. Additionally, they don't have any clue about how proper software development is supposed to be done, expecting us to develop unspecified products with negligible resources in unrealistic timeframes.
Give me military upper management over MBAs anyday. If it wasn't for reasons of geography I'd go back to my old employer like a shot.