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Last Word on Loki
A random reader sent in: "Loki's public CVS and FAQ database are now being hosted at icculus.org. The information, and a bit of evangelizing about Loki's demise can be found on icculus.org." You might take a look at the Linux Gamers' FAQ while you're there. Update: 01/25 21:05 GMT by M : Scott Draeker sends word that there will be an "official" repository of Loki code, including apparently some projects that weren't finished, hosted by SEUL in the near future.
... is the SDL. Made by a Loki employee (forgot which one, someone help me here) to help the porting process for DirectX, I believe. Its a nice package for any linux developers that want to make games...
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
Loki going under is bad, really bad for linux, but hardly the end.
:(
No more loki_demos
No more new patches
No more loki usenet
No more new ports from them.
But we have Neverwinter coming up, RTCW, and other companies are still pushing linux on the server.
The best thing us users can do is make sure we let game companies know that we purchased their game because it has linux binaries.
But I can't help but think on how some folks helped push them over the edge in a twist on the tradgedy of the commons scenario. Everyone can have some free software only so long as no one gets greedy about taking advantadge of the good will of others, especially when the goodwill is provided by people whose side you are on. sort of. kinda. maybe.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
I think the biggest problem about loki is that they were ahead of their time. In another 2 or 3 years I'm sure they would have no problem of making a go of it
I'm sure another company will be able to step in and take over where they left off, expecially since loki has already made all the tools needed.
This seems to be the trend for open source software companies, they make a product go out of business leaving their products available for the community. It's bitter-sweet, but I hope in the coming years that open source will be able to make a profit.
Linux users are accustomed to a gift culture, where the products of a programmer's work are given for free. Few will contribute back; most end up simply drooling over getting decent software for free. As a result, when a person or company diverges from this paradigm and tries to make a bit of money from the software they put a lot of hard work into, the results of a welfare culture rant and rave about possibly having to trade something for that product.
Linux is a result of communist practices, and the Loki case is an example of why prosperity can't develop in communist societies. Everyone wants to be equal, but when someone wants a slightly better existence, they are forced to conform by the people's inability to tolerate even a small market.
This really isn't hypocrisy, as a lot of the Linux "community" is involved for the free beer, not the free speech.
This is also why people should involve themselves in the market and purchase operating systems produced by capitalist entities such as Microsoft, Apple, and such. These companies will continue to innovate and strive to be better, because capitalism promotes competition, while communism promotes laziness and dependence. Capitalist systems grow and improve; communist systems stagnate and fade.
If you vote with your wallet, I don't think it makes much of a difference:
1. If the company is HUGE, one person not buying their product isn't going to hurt them. Something that would hurt would be a class-action lawsuit or something similar.
2. If the company is small, one person isn't enough when they vote with their wallets.
I think in the grander scheme of things, (Loki's demise aside, and how the big companies continue to get away with crimes), corporate lobbying must be curtailed, campaign reform laws must be enacted, and the right of the government to revoke corporate charters should be fully reinstated.
Oh and I am no hypocrite. I have bought many titles from Loki games. I fully supported their goals and vision. Sadly they are gone, but I hope a new company can take their place and do a better job at managing the funds, or at least try to change the perception of the "BIG BOYS" games companies (Blizzard comes to mind) that Linux ports are A Good Thing (tm).
-fialar
"I am failing to come up with words to describe how foreign this statement is to me. Why should I wait again? Like he said, its just a game, I'll buy it when I want to play it."
He's referring to those gamers who ran out, bought the Windows version, and then expected Linux binaries for free since they'd already paid for the Windows version. He's also referring to those whiners who now want those ported games released for free since Loki's gone; they wouldn't support the company while it was struggling to survive, but they'll happily pick apart the corpse.
I guess it's pretty clear that Linux users don't want good games, since they're not willing to support programmers long enough to port or create them. That's too bad, since so much hard work has been put into nice desktops by the GNOME, KDE, Xfce, and other teams, all for naught since the home market will never develop without games. Talk about wasted time. Talk about spitting in the face of the programmers who busted ass to provide good software, only to be told "I want it now, I want it good, and oh, I want it for free."
Keep this up, and you won't have an alternative OS to play games on. If Linux development halts, along with development of user-friendly interfaces, don't go crying to the programmers you wouldn't support.
The author of the faq says "You aren't going to get Warcraft 3 on Linux, which means that you should never BUY Warcraft 3, even though it will no doubt be a great game.
Why the hell shouldn't I enjoy a great game! Games are for having fun, relaxing after a hard day at the office, or for modern multiplayer games, for playing with and making friends. Games are not about what platform you support, I mean can anyone imagine saying I don't want to play Milton Bradly games because I can't use Hasbro miniture characters with them. No, of course not, you just play the game with the parts it came with. In a similar fashion, most people that are serious about pc gaming, and enjoy linux, tend to dual boot to windows for much of their gaming. This is the reality of the marketplace, and a large part of why Loki failed.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
This isn't going to happen.
Linux doesn't have any of its own proprietary APIs for games. (Indeed, that would be very antithetical to Free Software ideals. It is never going to be able to leverage any sort of network effect to gain marketshare. You just can't do that with GPLed software; it's virtually impossible.) If you want to write a Linux game, you're going to end up using SDL, OpenGL, etc. And if you do that, porting your game to that other platform, will be pretty darned easy, because those are cross-platform APIs. I'll say that again: the best gaming APIs for Linux, happen to be cross-platform APIs. So the situation where Linux has a game, and Windows doesn't have it, so that a Windows user will reboot into Linux to play a game, isn't likely to happen.
...at least, it won't happen for availability reasons. Other reasons, such as performance, stability, security, etc. could still apply. (i.e. a person reboots into Linux to play a game, because the game happens to run faster or it doesn't crash as often.) And there are other reasons to use Linux as well. But the validity of all these reasons, has already been covered in a thousand Linux advocacy discussions. No reason to digress into here as well, eh?
Anyway, the only way you're ever going to see someone reboot into Linux to play a game for availability reasons, is if you make a non-open API for Linux games, and deliberately avoid letting it be cross-platform. I think such an effort would be a complete failure. There are lots of people who use Linux for Stallmanesque reasons, and you would be in direct opposition to them.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
I'm a gamer, I don't buy windows games anymore unless they have native ports. I understand this isn't a widely held view, which probably contributed to the downfall of Loki.
I don't believe we will get any games (or expansions) from Maxis/EA released for Linux first until Maxis develops on Linux first. Or somebody pays them off. I've never played The Sims winelib port, so I cannot comment on the quality directly. However, I understand by way of a third party that is an okay port. From this and my own experiences with the wineX cvs ("Building font metrics, this may take some time..." ugh) don't believe any winelib port can be as good as a true, native port.
Check out ioquake3.org for a great, free, First-Person Shooter engine!
That there are people willing to do the ports practically for free, and still let the owner companies pocket all the revenue from the games, if only they'd be allowed to port it. And yet game companies are so worried about letting valuable secrets slip out that they won't let ANYONE see the code, NDA or otherwise. The silly notion is that even if someone picks up on a great idea, by the time that idea can be implemented into some other game, it'll be a good year later at least, and by then there will be new technologies and new hardware and the old stuff won't matter as much anymore. ID knows this, which is why they GPL the code for older games.
Perhaps the linux community isn't a huge source of revenue. WHO CARES? If the porting can be done for you for free, then its all gravy. Same with device drivers. Nobody sells device drivers, they sell the hardware the devices interface with. And if they can pick up a new market without any investment of time or money and not even have to support it, how can that be anything but a benefit.
And yet they hold on like there's some dangerous secret that might leak out and put them out of business. I must be missing something obvious here.
-Restil
Play with my webcams and lights here
Buying Windows DirectX games fills Publisher's pockets with money that says "Don't bother to use anything but DirectX, I sure don't care about any platforms besides Microsoft's latest iteration of Windows!".
This is the fact: everytime a Windows game is purchased it makes the Linux gaming platform seem noticably smaller. Because we are fewer in the first place, it has an even bigger dent in what Linux market there is.
Check out ioquake3.org for a great, free, First-Person Shooter engine!
Another thing to keep in mind is that most mac users could not dual boot to play the new PC/Win game that they just purchased the week it came out. If I had a Mac -- I had to wait until the Mac version came out if I wanted to play. (Much different that dual booting on the same machine.) I think Loki would have survived if 3 things were in place:
A...If dual booters were really hardcore linux fans -- and refused to dual boot (even for games) -- Sales go up 50% for Loki -- because people would not have already purchased the "windows version".
B...If Loki were able to offer Linux games closer to the time they were released for the other platforms....(nothing like getting a "new" Linux game 12 months after the windows version had hit the cut out boxes for $9.99. -- Sales go up 25%.
C...If they had been able to port the games that people wanted to buy...The Starcrafts, Warcrafts, C&C, Red Alert, Diablo...Sales go up 75%
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.
You missed the entire point! Here is the short form: There is this concept called LINUX GAMING. If the LINUX part is more important to you, don't buy WINDOWS games because it is not only not helping LINUX gaming, it is hurting LINUX gaming.
If, however, the GAMING part is more important to you, then why care about Linux? Go buy Windows games and play them under Windows, you'll probably be a lot happier.
The point is that people who profess to care about LINUX gaming would rather buy the Windows version (which helps Windows gaming, but not Linux gaming) rather than the Linux version.
If you care about the LINUX part of "Linux gaming", then you need to make a stand. Otherwise, you are hurting the very thing you profess to care about.
(It sounds like this doesn't apply to you, so why are you commenting on the story?)
While Transgaming's heart might be in the right place, I don't think they're following the right methods to bring gaming to the Linux community. I'm not the only one, either. Scott Draeker had this to say in his interview about Loki's demise:
The arrival of TransGaming to me is the clearest indication that Loki failed to jump-start a Linux gaming industry as we'd hoped, because TransGaming has nothing to do with Linux games. Their message to game developers is: "Use DirectX and develop for Windows. We'll help you sell your Windows products to Linux users."
TransGaming's strategy is the same one Corel used in its Linux applications business. In the end I don't think they'll be any more successful than Corel was.
Though he seems a little bitter, I agree with the point that he makes. Loki's intentions were to bring gaming to Linux, not Linux to gaming. Loki made a mutual friend of Linux and games; not only did Linux users get a slew of great titles, but it made Linux more appealing in the process. Transgaming, in contrast, is giving us games to play, but it does nothing to help make Linux a mainstream OS to gamers.
Of course, you may argue that if Loki was just porting already-made Windows titles to Linux, it wasn't really doing anything new. But the position gave Loki the opportunity to produce games exclusive to Linux down the road. Transgaming will not have that option on their current path.
-WetDog
Then why are you complaining? Your comment is redundant and if I was a moderator I'd mark you as a troll. If you didn't like the games thats fine but if you wanted MORE games, different types of games and the option to run games on Linux then you should of coughed up some cash and bought a game and given it to someone who wanted it. Your comment says Loki couldn't have done anything about the choice of games to port and then on the same hand you scold them with the suggestions of ports you would of liked to see.
Avid game player yes, avid linux user; I'd seriously question that. It seems to me that an avid linux user (I'd assume we are talking about someone who uses linux all the time) would prefer to have games natively ported to Linux. This whole idea of dual-booting to windows to play games makes me sick. It requires that I have a Microsoft license for windows and it also requires that I buy games for windows, which means I'm supporting the windows platform which god strike me down hasn't happened in 8 years and will never fucking happen again.
Alot of you really need to either shut the fuck up about Microsoft all together or stop supporting them, put your money where your mouth is and bite the bullet and the industry will respond accordingly.. Bend over for the industry and they will fuck you.. Convient for them, convient for you obviously. Don't be a hypocrite, there is nothing worst. Lets not get into the right tool for the right job because for me Linux is the right tool for the right job in all areas. But you fucking dual-booters really need to NOT comment because you do absolutely nothing to help the primary goal of more native linux ports infact you do exactly the opposite, you help more native window ports.
So I'm just curious...do you use assume all idiots (like the poster) to be Americans?
This seems to be a very popular among the English, who badmouth Americans for being violent while their own fine English football fans murder people in stadiums. Then they talk about how Americans are crude and stupid while they let their elderly citizens die forgotten on a hospital trolly waiting 60 hours for treatment of a stroke.
There are 260 million Americans, give-or-take. Perhaps you should not paint us all with the same brush.
Stupid Americans started the Open Source movment, wrote Unix, and provided most of those neat tools that Linux was later based on. Not to mention the bloody internet you are using now.