Wired Talks Wine

Donate to WINE by satanami69 · 2002-01-25 19:39 · Score: 2, Interesting

I'd really like to see this take off, and not just because my dad bought Corel stock. I went to find how to contribute to WINE, and they have this to say. If you haven't yet started the kernel hacking, then take up this project. Give them your time.

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I really hate Dan Patrick.

WINE necessary?? by Partisan01 · 2002-01-25 19:41 · Score: 2, Interesting

Is WINE really necessary for Linux growth in the desktop area? I believe that Linux has enough of it's own apps native to the OS that we don't need to go out and run all the windows apps out there. From my experience Linux apps might be a little harder to set up, but eventually once they're running they're much more stable and more reliable then the windows counter-parts. Granted there are a few things I'd love to see work better in Linux like digital cameras but in time I have a feeling that will all be coded over.

Nate Tobik

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ahh, the egg in the basket..

Re:WINE necessary?? by BlueUnderwear · 2002-01-25 20:32 · Score: 3, Interesting

Is WINE really necessary for Linux growth in the desktop area? I believe that Linux has enough of it's own apps native to the OS that we don't need to go out and run all the windows apps out there.
One reason: Lotus Notes. Granted, there are also open source alternatives out there (such as for instance Tutos), but that doesn't help you much if you are an employee at a company which uses Notes. Wine allows you to run Linux on your workstation while still being able to access the corporate document and discussion databases.
Of course, it is in IBM's power to show their true commitment to Linux by making this point moot with a native Linux Notes client, but for some weird reason they don't want to, despite their Linux commitment in many other areas...

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Say no to software patents.

Re:Wine Mainstream by Da+Schmiz · 2002-01-25 19:54 · Score: 2, Interesting

*This* is the migration path that Lindows is trying to be. I'd give Lindows a try if I wasn't convinced that Linux Mandrake + Ximian Desktop + free Wine would do as good a job or better. (Substitute your favorite disty if you prefer. And please don't flame me about GNOME vs. KDE. I don't care.)

Why pay $99 for a package that you can get for free? Especially when Red Carpet will install Wine seamlessly and painlessly, with just three clicks.

Myself, I'm in the process of moving from a Linux-only system to a dual-boot Linux/Windows system, only because there are a few apps I still can't get to work in VMWare. (Specifically, I have no way of installing software on my Palm, and anything multimedia works poorly if at all.) If Wine can get these to work, and possibly IE and Word, for the few times when Opera and OpenOffice don't quite do the trick, I'm all for it.

Wine has (or potentially will have) all the advantages of Lindows, with none of the disadvantages. I'd rather just spend the $99 on another monitor so I can have a setup like Jon from ThinkGeek's happy family.

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"Anything is better than IE, and you can quote me on that." -- Wil Wheaton.

Good quote at the end of the article by mdubinko · 2002-01-25 19:57 · Score: 5, Interesting

"I also find it intriguing that Microsoft has a Linux Competitive Manager if they don't see Linux as competition."
-- from WINE contributor István Lebor

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--- Learn XForms today: http://xformsinstitute.com

Please Buy Crossover Plugin. by hack0rama · 2002-01-25 20:02 · Score: 3, Interesting

WINE lets CodeWeavers has created for QuickTime and Shockwave run so smoothly that I never think about them.

I have paid 20$ for CodeWeaver's Crossover plugins. And like he said Shockwave and Quicktime run very smoothly with Galeon + Mozilla 0.9.8. Without having any noticable load on the system resources.

So do your part go pay 20$ and get Crossover plugin. While enjoying all the Quicktime, Shockwave fun, you will be helping Codeweavers in not ending up like Loki.

I had mixed feelings about Transgaming, since they may not be helping in getting Linux game ports and so on. But with Loki gone I might support anything that will get good games on linux.

Its fine with Crossoevr plugins, since Apple was not going to do a Quiktime port for Linux anyway. And I think I read that Apple did support Codeweavers in getting Quicktime working with Wine.

My Solution by bildstorm · 2002-01-25 20:03 · Score: 2, Interesting

Hey, I love Wine. It's a great product, and I think it's neat to run whatever I can directly in Linux using Wine.

However, I have to be realistic. One of my favourite games is Civ III, and since Infogrames isn't the most cooperative publisher in the world, I doubt a Linux version will arrive. And Wine doesn't run it well.

So, I'm stuck with my next system being one using both Wine and VMWare.

I think that's really the best anyone can hope for now. I'm not planning on upgrading my Windows version any time soon, though, so if you're a developer, remember the Win98 SE people.

(Of course, I bought Alpha Centauri for Linux. It's a shame about Loki. Can't wait for Bioware to release Neverwinter Nights to run on Linux. And those TOOLS better work under Linux as well.)

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The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. - G.B. Shaw

What about Win4Lin?? by pjbass · 2002-01-25 20:18 · Score: 2, Interesting

I've been using Win4Lin 3.0 (Win4Lin) by Netravese for a few months now, and find it to be completely awesome. Now it does cost money, but this is actually booting up a copy of Windows inside an X session. Now granted it only support 95/98, but the article mentions that WINE only supports that as well.

I highly recommend Win4Lin for those of you who are forced into using M$ applications at your place of work (Outlook, etc.). It is pretty fast, and supports everything from Windows networking to sound and primitive USB. I tried WINE before and after Win4Lin, and I know why I'm sticking with Win4Lin.

Re:That's great and all, but... by KewlPC · 2002-01-25 20:36 · Score: 2, Interesting

Well, at least some native Linux versions of Windows programs should be similar enough to their Windows counterparts that people can just pick them up and go, with minimal "re-learning".

Not _ALL_ Linux programs have to be just like the Windows ones, nor do KDE/GNOME/[insert favorite X Window manager] have to be like Windows. But if there were say, some popular Linux-native office apps that not only were of good quality (and very compatible with the files generated by MS Word, Excel, etc.) but had an interface similar to MS Office*, there would no longer be the, "Well, but I've already gone to the trouble of learning MS Office!" excuse.

Remember, people take entire CLASSES to learn MS Office*. Neither they nor their bosses (who would have to pay them while they re-learn what they already know) would be happy if one day all their MS Office knowledge meant nothing, just because the Chief Technology Officer / IT department of the company they were working at decided to switch over to Linux.

*When I say "MS Office" I mean all the MS Office apps, such as Word, Excel, etc.

Microsoft's response? by cmoney · 2002-01-25 20:50 · Score: 4, Interesting

Okay, I'm a newbie when comes to Wine's technical side, but what happens when Microsoft releases the .0.1 release of their APIs specifically to break Wine compatibility?

Or what happens when Microsoft updates their EULA to read: "this program must run on an officially licensed Microsoft Operating System" or starts requiring vendors who want to use the XP logo on their boxes to start including that wording also?

Heck, they could just put it all under the guise of their new security stance.

I'm not trolling, these are all possibilities when playing with MS! You can bet they've got contigency plans all ready for the day when Wine becomes a threat.

Choices... by buckrogers · 2002-01-25 21:04 · Score: 2, Interesting

I believe that anything that gives us all more choices is a good thing.

I bought win98 on several computers and a lot of old games and programs over the past 10 years, and if I can find a way to run them in parrallel with a better OS, then I will do so.

One of the things that people don't realize is that windows 9x is no longer a supported platform, if there are security holes and the like on that platform, you are on your own. I bet that soon even the virus scanner people will abandon those old platforms, and then you will be in a lot of trouble.

At least WINE will be fully supported by a lot of dedicated programmers for a long time to come. Who knows, we might even learn a few things from the dark side of the source (i.e. windows) and become better programmers.

And I have been wondering about decompiling programs into their original source and recompling them for newer platforms. Doesn't transmeta and the as400 do something this on the fly? It would be so cool to take my windows programs into the coming 64bit and 128bit computing environments that are on the way.

Or to run my full on version of MSOfficePro 4.2 on a PPC. :) That was the best version that Office ever released. It was small, fast and had a reasonable number of features compared what we have now. grrrrr.

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-- Never make a general statement.

It's the wrong idea... by Gazelem · 2002-01-25 21:32 · Score: 3, Interesting

...if the aim is to get converts. How many people converted to the mac because of softPC? I personally don't know any.

Remember OS/2? One of their claims was "it's a better DOS than DOS" and it was true. OS/2 could run DOS with multiple versions and multiple configurations. But did it take off? No. And one of the reasons is that it didn't have the software support. People don't want emulators, they want native applications.

Emulators are good for that application or two that you still need to run aside from your main software. The key is to make that "main software" Linux software and get the users to like them better than the Windows software.

If people want to run Windows apps, they'll run Windows.

Re:It's the wrong idea... by xtremex · 2002-01-25 22:59 · Score: 2, Interesting

A good friend of mine wanted a new laptop. He's fiddled with Linux, and he loves it. He hates Windows, but has purchased WAAAAAAAAAY too many apps for it. I told him to get a mac laptop. He knows how great macs are, and he loves OS X. But he says, I'll have to spend the next 5 years buying software for a mac to replace what I have now.
I couldnt argue with him. However, he is NOT the only person in that scenario? What do we do with those people?

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If you're not a Liberal in your 20's, then you have no heart.If you're still a Liberal in your 30's you have no brain.

How to migrate from Windows by heretic108 · 2002-01-25 21:57 · Score: 3, Interesting

One of the major weaknesses of Wine so far is that there's no support for Windows-only drivers. For example, Matrox Marvel G200 MJPEG video capture. This wipes out whole classes of applications - multimedia, OCR and others.
Fortunately, VMWare version 3 now supports USB, which can allow installation of drivers for USB hardware.

I can envisage that many people will follow an integration path like:
1) Mainly using Windows, add a linux partition
2) Learn the Linux apps, often boot Windows partition
3) Progressively migrate Windows apps to VMware under Linux, less frequent use of Windows partition
4) Progressively migrate Windows apps from under VMware into the Wine environment
5) Progressively convert data from Windows apps to formats usable by native Linux apps

Hopefully, at some point along this path, one can delete the Windows partition, and later the VMware box, and use only native Linux apps or run some Windows apps under wine.

Realistically, I would hope to be completely free of my Windows partition in 6-12 months, and free of VMware in 6-18 months.

But the time to really 'pop the cork' on the Wine is when it supports native Windows device drivers, which will be a feat indeed!

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-- In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was UNSIGNED, and the main(){} was without form and void...

Re:From an embarrassed Windows user by ignavus · 2002-01-25 23:10 · Score: 2, Interesting

I (and probably other Windows users) will switch when Linux outperforms Windows where it counts

Linux already outperforms Windows where it counts for me: performance, stability, freedom, licensing, price, availability of databases and programming tools (C, C++, Perl, fortran, Objective-C, awk, bash, DB, postgresql or mysql, and more - are all *just a normal part* of most Linux installs, but with Windows you are lucky to get QBasic or VBScript, which are jokes by comparison), cool interfaces (after Windowmaker, Windows is, well, a little pedestrian - I keep wanting to roll up windows, switch to other desktops, etc - and I hate task bars along the bottom or top of the screen - give me a few icons down the side, and a menu that *doesn't* have a misleading label like "Start" .. and it is SO easy to create your own themes in WindowMaker)

And being dependent upon a single, monopolistic supplier, with proven predatory (anti-capitalistic) practices towards competition, security, and user independence - these count as things to avoid my books.

It is already time to switch. Windows is its own killer app.

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I am anarch of all I survey.

well by Anonymous Coward · 2002-01-25 23:18 · Score: 1, Interesting

Personally, one of the many reasons I don't run Windows is that I tend not to like Windows apps. IF I WANTED TO RUN WINDOWS APPS I WOULD BE RUNNING WINDOWS

Solves Loki problem by kaltan · 2002-01-25 23:36 · Score: 3, Interesting

Would people be willing to pay for this ? I think so. A goot working WINE would solve problems of 6 months late game ports. They are porting DirectX 8 and so on too. So this anticipates new releases. The version 1.0 claims also to solve some program installer problems.

THE absolute advantage for game developers are the WINElets which they are working on here. It will make rewriting game code unnessecary and, remember, WINE Is Not an Emulator, so i don't really expect speed issues in the future !

Piracy isn't ownership... by segfault_0 · 2002-01-26 01:33 · Score: 2, Interesting

It's funny how the same users that say why would I switch from Windows to Linux are the same users who complain about crashes and high pricing of Windows apps.

The licensing schemes for Windows for the home user are the least of peoples problems with cost. Office costs far more to license than Windows itself, as does Adobe Photoshop(over 700$).

We have to remember that Wine although a great project and very interesting, will generate more sales for the same companies that overcharge to the extreme for products that would be considered a minor revision upgrade under Linux

I personally feel securing and improving Linux native applications and breaking the corporate grip on the minds of average computer users (aka "I have to have Office 2010 to get any work done!") is far more important to real independence and change.

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I was crazy back when being crazy really meant something. (Charles Manson)

best quote from the article by werd+life · 2002-01-26 05:09 · Score: 2, Interesting

Responding to Steve Wasko's (Microsoft) comments about no threat from WINE/Linux.

..., Lebor said. "I also find it intriguing that Microsoft has a Linux Competitive Manager if they don't see Linux as competition."

So WINElib = Carbon? by alexhmit01 · 2002-01-26 05:09 · Score: 3, Interesting

Intersting, however OS 9 apps run in a box of sorts. They can take over the screen, but it is clear when an app is running in classic mode. It is much the same as where VMWare could take you.

WINElib has the potential to do for Linux what Carbon did for OS X.

Carbon is an OS X native API that is based on the classic API. Additionally, Carbon was ported to OS 8 and OS 9. This meant that you could have been developing for Carbon the past few years and having OS X native applications that ran under Mac OS. For extra fun, they could have FAT binaries (I think that I'm using the term right, they had something like that) where they could include a Classic PPC binary, Classic 68K binary, and Carbon OS X binary all as one application.

WINElib is interesting, you can build against WINElib and compile for Windows and Linux, supporting both platforms with native applications. The trick is a strategy that lets you target both OSes for now, it lets you keep your Windows market and expand into the Linux market as it matures.

Personally, I think that Apple should work on getting WINElib to be Aquafied. Then you could build targetting WINElib for Windows/OS X, and Linux or other UNIXes. Obviously you'd hate to make Win32 the standard API, but Apple dropped it when they dropped OpenSTEP for Win32, so oh well.

Alex

Others need Wine and Lindows for vertical apps. by Anonymous Coward · 2002-01-26 05:22 · Score: 2, Interesting

Although I'm a windows user, and struggling to get into Linux, here's a spot that no one else seems to have talked of: Vertical applications.

Although I'd love to have Linux as my main OS, I'd still have to duel boot to use some propritory, vertical applications such as apprasial software. They don't make this for linux, and chances are they won't ever unless Windows and MS was to dissipear.

But the same software out of that buggy, crash happy, insecure, and system hogging Windows, into a stable, secure linux. Now your talking! I'd leave windows in a millisecond if I could get all of them working.

That's why, those who said 'If you want windows programs, then why use linux' (or stick with windows, etc.) why I'm supporting Lindows, and WINE so strongly. If I *have* to use those programs, then I want a choice of what OS they run under! I want a stable, secure, lean OS. Is that too much to ask?

Now if they can work out an easy to install/upgrade way for KDE, AND WINE then I'll consider these two options :). Comeon Lindows!

Shaddock Delaforge (shadwalk@operamail.com)

Re:What's most important: by IDIIAMOTS · 2002-01-26 05:29 · Score: 2, Interesting

A guy I work with has an ex-Microsoft buddy who, since cashing out rich, has turned his attention to the Open Source community.

A few years back he had a, what seemed to everyone, brilliant idea. He wanted to start a company that would provide matchmaking services between companies needing Open Source coding work done and programmers willing to put time into such projects. The theory was that if 10,000 people wanted a replacement for Photoshop, they'd pool $100 into a bank fund that would later pay for 2 yrs of someone's full-time work.

It all *horribly* flopped. What this gentlemen found out whas that no one wanted to pay for an open source project. There were thousands of developers signing up for his service, some even with already planned apps. Except the user-end of the community didn't want to pony up, not even a nickel. They all wanted it free. Similar situation as with Loki.

Also, consider that 1 million dollars won't buy you 10 developers for 2 years. More realistically, $1M will get you a team of 5 devs (5 x $80K) and 10 testers (10 x $60K) for one year. $1M is peanuts in this industry.

Re:Wine Mainstream by PlaysWithMatches · 2002-01-26 06:19 · Score: 2, Interesting

Halflife you've got me on too.

Half-Life works very well on TransGaming's WineX, aside from some glitches with the starting menus (this problem has been fixed in TransGaming's internal builds, though, and will be incorporated into the upcoming WineX release). It's not perfect yet, but it rocks on my system. :)

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Mozilla's a nice operating system, but it needs a better browser.

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