Slashdot Mirror
Control Digital Audio With Turntables
Anonymous Coward writes "Harmony Central has a NAMM article about FinalScratch which is a digital audio controller technology for Linux/BeOS, so DJ's can play digital audio and keep the tactile control of the turntable. Some interesting technology there, and a further push for digital audio." Another one for CowboyNeal's birthday
list.
the trend for music going to completely digital is defenitly a good thing. i like the fact that even "i" can download one of these things, mess around with it (even though i have no clue what im doing)
but is the music produced still the same as done by "hand"?
I didn't think it was physically possible, but this both sucks and blows - Bart Simpson
Fuck Linux. Fuck it in its stupid ass.
from a year ago
DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE
http://www.tacoinspector.com/?goon=kjeldor
y'all
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Being a member of generation D, condescending elders often ask me if I even know what a vinyl record is. I tell them "sure. It's a giant CD that uses a needle instead of a laser and melts if you leave it in the sun."
There is a 'Receive info form', for Windows users, and another form for Linux and FreeBSD users. The funny part is that the HTML title of that form is 'Receive info about the system (Linux/NetBSD Form)' . FreeBSD? NetBSD? I'm confused.
{{.sig}}
I have to take issue with one thing in the harmony central article ... it says the records contain a time code. What do you do when you break these special records? ...
Religion is a gateway psychosis. -- Dave Foley
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The more I see the more I hear the more I find the fewer answers
I close my mind, I shut it out but you know its getting harder
to calm down, to reason out, to come to terms with
what it's all about
I'm uptight, can't sleep at night, I can't pretend everything's
alright. My ideals my sanity, they seem to be
deserting me but to stand up and fight I know
we have six million reasons
They're buring down the mosques uzis on a street corner The silence never louder than now, how quickly we forgot
our vows, this resurrection we can't allow, the uzis on a street corner
Where do we go from here
We buy fresh bagels from the corner store Where swastikas mix with the stars and stripes
I sit in the bar sipping iced white russians
trying to score but nobody's pushing
and everyone looks at everyone's faces
searching for signs and praying for traces
of a conscience in residence, are we sitting on
a barbed wire fence, chasing the clouds home
We place our faith in human rights
In the paper wars that tie the redtape tight
I know that I would rather be out of this conspiracy
In the gulags and camp X-rays
nameless faces in frozen ranks
I know that they would rather be
standing here besides me chasing the clouds home
We place our faith in human rights
In the paper wars that tie the redtape tight
I know that I would rather be out of this conspiracy
In the gulags and camp X-rays
nameless faces in frozen ranks
I know that they would rather be
standing here besides me chasing the clouds home
racing the clouds home
You can shut your eyes, you can hide away
it's gonna come back another day
racing the clouds home
But where do we go from here
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I believe Richie Hawtin has been using Final scratch for the last year or so. Furthermore, his latest CD "DE9: Closer to the Edit" is supposed to be largely mixed with it.
hummer
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Do yourself a favor and don't follow that link!
It's really a nice idea, stratch some digital information to communicate how your scratching, and then let the computer scratch whatever audio. However, I think it's going to be vaporware for sometime as I think they're having problems with the hardware.
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Bring down the fascist IP ban!
If we're efficient in blocking them, you'll post maybe 600 more comments and waste about a tenth of a cent of our disk space. Meanwhile, I will hunt you down.
Oh, well.
Anyone know if you can run Solaris binaries on Linux? Thereby running IE for Solaris and HP/UX on Linux?
This is going to come across as a troll to some people, but does anyone know anyone who is using any flavor of *nix or BeOS for professional music work? I am not slamming this particular product or the idea of doing this, but every professional music person I know is on a Mac and starts foaming at the suggestion that other platforms even exist.
It strikes me as odd to make the product for Linux and BeOS first, and then port to Mac, as the article says. Does anyone know of a huge underground of Linux using pro DJ's I have have somehow missed?
7. What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence.
Please mod crap like that down.
All this effort so alleged "artists" can make that nasty scratching noise with a computer? Shit, why bother?
It's like there's some media conspiracy to promote rapping/DJ's as some sort of artists - like the way the Chris Rock show keeps (kept?) raving about "grandmaster flash" - what a load of crap.
I'm not often moved to remember Ayn Rand's writings, but this brings to mind the talk Ellsworth Toohey gives near the end of The Fountainhead about how to destroy the arts by continuously promoting the mediocre or worse. (Yes I'm kissing my karma goodbye - oh well.)
"that's not encryption - it's a new perl script that I'm working on..." - from some Matrix parody
www.Lunarpower.org
Trance/Hard Trance/Deep Trance
this is probably the coolest idea i've ever seen for mixing in mp3s... cueing mp3s is almost impossible if you're used to cueing up with the fine-tuning that vinyl allows you. I really hope to see this technology take off. Lord knows there are a bunch of hard-to-find records out there that are only made in a limited supply batch. Hats off to FinalScratch. Anyone know of any other devices such as this? please post if ou do...
Monkey sense
Oh, we are too dump to reply in the correct thread, are we? You should at least have the decency to actually reply to one of thos scripted crap posts.
Anyway, your post is offtopic and shouldn't have been posted here in the first place. Why didn't you just mail Jamie or Taco?
You are just adding to the noise here.
Shut the fuck up.
but I must have clicked the wrong reply link
You're scratching records but you won't be scratching mine
Don't give me chish-chash in rinky dink time
Just vive le rock, vive le rock
- Vive Le Rock, by Adam Ant and Marco Pirroni
In previous digital DJ solutions, there has been a problem where you don't get a visual indication of where breakdowns occur in songs. When you spin with vinyl, if you look closely at a track the grooves look different during a breakdown, giving you a visual indication of how much time you have to finish/start a mix. One reason for Final Scratch's success is being able to see on your laptop screen where the breakdowns are, just as if you had the vinyl in front of you.
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Holy shit talk about a lame ass fp attempt! Jesus, if the moderators are that god damn dumb...
It's been in development for a few years. I first heard about it while experimenting with beOS a few years back...at the time it was a free project, and they had schematics on how to construct various bits of it...appartently it worked so well for them that they decided to market it, and rightly so. Right now both Richie Hawtin and John Acquaviva are using the system on tour...
-- From my Best Friend (Written to me over ICQ): "i was gonna go to a party...but i had to reinstall windows"
It strikes me as odd to make the product for Linux and BeOS first,
I don't find it odd, that's exactly what I would do if I wanted to publicize a product on Slashdot. The probability the submission gets accepted by Slashdot goes from 0.05 to 0.8 just by mentioning some geek OSes in the writeup.
That post is clearly offtopic. Moderators, please perform your holy task!
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it appears that Stanton Inc. is releasing Final Scratch. their site has some good info directly from Richie about using it.
/* Half alive and half dead too, work is for suckers and the sucker is you. - "Half-life" by Local H*/
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According to various BeOS news sites this particular product will not be available to the BeOS platform. "The final version of FINALSCRATCH will actually be released on Linux, as BeOS does not support new computers as we understand it." //Begroovy.com
On a little side note I would like to say that this is not true; with patches all modern x86 platform (with the exception of specific hardware of course) will work with BeOS. A german group of BeOS users has set out to release the patches along with BeOS 5.0 (pe or pro, not known). The project can be found at www.yellowtab.com.
Rasmus Ekman
rasmus.ekman(a)telia.n0spammers.com
Art is not news for nerds.
Anything not tech-related is OT.
Thiz iz for you, fanatic
Copyright (C) 2001 Paul Treanor
SHOULD ART BE DESTROYED?
Art, whatever the definition, has certain characteristics. It is equivalent to an entity, perpetuating
itself across generations. As a result, it is permanent. Art also implies certain value claims, about
the precedence of accumulative creativity over destruction. Permanence and accumulation cannot
be ethically legitimised. In practice, there is a stable geo-cultural structure, of ethnic and national
art. This structure is not ethically legitimised. The best response is a territorial separation of art.
KABUL, March 1 2001 (AFP via Yahoo News)
Afghanistan's ruling Taliban authorities said Thursday they have started destroying all statues in the country,
including the world's tallest standing Buddha statue in the central province of Bamiyan.
"The work started about five hours ago but I do not know how much of it (the Bamiyan Buddhas) has been destroyed,"
Taliban Information and Culture Minister Qudratullah Jamal told AFP.
"It will be destroyed by every means. All the statues are being destroyed."
The poor, the weak and the oppressed do not speak in defence of art. The voice of art is the voice of privilege. But if that was the only defect of art,
then equality would legitimise art. There is not just privilege, there is eternal privilege, for art continues. Art is ancient tradition: worse than privilege. Is it not time to destroy it?
Art is wrong because it is the past, because it perpetuates itself, because it is transgenerational, because it is culture, and because it requires the
suppression of anti-art to exist.
People argue about what art is. High art is still contrasted to popular culture. In the 1970's some class theories opposed elitist art. However, in
Britain, where Art an Enemy of the People was published in 1978, the response to "high art" was not rejection. It was the demand for subsidies - for
community art, minority art, women's art, or art of colour. A similar pattern applies all over western Europe. The existence of art is not an issue.
Policy simply accepts art: this is true for artists, for individual governments, and for the European Union. A policy consensus implies a definitional
consensus.
Despite the apparent disunity about what constitutes high art or authentic art, there is a deep negative consensus about its nature. This negative
consensus is common to all modern societies. Some things are not art, never:
a trans-Sahel railway
state formation
justice
a single European currency.
Seen from this perspective, it is the agreement about Art which is remarkable. Evidently there is something called art: and so to its defects.
The first defect of art is the antiquity of art. Some art is recent, of course, but there is no planned future art. In urban planning, for instance, there are
those who plan cities which are not yet built, and those who study urban history. In art, however, there is only art history: art is past-oriented, almost
by definition. Art is tens of thousands of years old. There is an immense volume of art from the past, even though most works of art are destroyed
deliberately (of that, more later). The sacrality of art is a sacrality of the past.
Art perpetuates itself. True, this is a reification, but it is an accurate one. It is the actions of people which perpetuate art: but the effect for the
opponents of art is as if art defended itself. I will use here exactly the same metaphor and analogy, that I used to describe the defects of
sustainability, the ethic of eternal structures.
Compare the lives of two twins, born in identical circumstances. However, one is pro-art, the other is anti-art. The pro-art twin can go to art school,
or study art history. There is no equivalent for the anti-art twin: no school of art incineration. Great social pressure to accept art is applied to one
twin. No similar pressure to accept art-destruction is applied to the other twin. Because art is a core value in all existing societies, the social and
employment opportunities of the anti-art twin will be limited. It is also the pro-art twin who is more likely to be elected or appointed to political office.
The value attached to art limits the opportunity of its opponents to take action against it. In this way art is a self-preserving structure. It is like a
religion, whose adherents systematically discriminate non-believers: if such a religion is in a majority, it will constantly improve its position of power.
The strength and functioning of this self-preserving structure can be appreciated, by imagining that there was no art, and no pro-art structures.
Transferring from an art-free world into the existing world, can be compared to transferring from this world, into a world objectionably different.
Cannibalism is a useful characteristic for this comparison, because it is almost universally taboo. Being transferred into a cannibal world, from this
world, would be extremely unpleasant for most people. They would be forced to accept that something they abhor is a normal part of society: that
there is apparently no possibility of reform, since everyone accepts it as normal. This is the situation for opponents of art in the existing world.
Art also perpetuates itself in a more indirect way. Art is often described as human endeavour or achievement, and it is indeed a product of human
activity. People are encouraged to consider art as a valued activity, to the exclusion of other activity. In many cultures it is regarded as a high form of
achievement: that in itself is a valuing of conservatism. Artists strive to produce good art, but what they produce is art, because the activity takes
place only in an art framework, a framework that already exists. It is accurate to say that art is conformity in itself, since artists must conform to the
norm of what art is. That norm will vary across cultures and in time, but only in the limiting case that everything is accepted as art, does it cease to
be restrictive. In practice, creative approaches to non-art areas are often socially un-accepted, or considered strange.
Art is transgenerational and open-ended. It perpetuates itself in the structural form described above, but art cannot be otherwise. So long as art is in
opposition to iconoclasm, for instance, then there is a difference in the value socially ascribed to activities. In almost all cases (and certainly in
modern societies) the accepted pattern is, that creation takes place by accumulation only. Iconoclasm (in the broad sense of art destruction) is
defined as a non-creative act.
There is no inherent logical basis for the restriction of creativity to accumulation. However, it is the form art takes, and that form is socially
accepted. Although there are millions of paintings already, painting a new one is defined as a creative activity. Reducing the existing stock is not.
Destruction is not considered of equal value to creation.
On the contrary, destruction of art is considered a crime, and a sign of mental illness. Entering a museum and destroying a painting is considered
shocking. Such acts are widely reported in the media, if they affect well-known works of art. This cannot be logically derived from a sacred status. In
religious activity, sacred is not always permanent. Sacrificial animals were killed in some religions, offerings were burnt. It would be logically
possible to treat art like this, but that does not occur. Art is not just sacred, its own accumulation is sacred, its permanence is sacred.
The continuance of art is therefore inherent in art. Art is for ever. That which can not end, is wrong, and must be ended. Permanence of any entity
constitutes a claim to all time for its existence, specifically against its non-existence. Claims to time are contra-ethical or morally arbitrary: one state
(existence of art) is favoured over another (non-existence of art) merely because it happened to exist first. It is possible to claim value for firstness
or primacy (as nationalist organisations of indigenous peoples do), but this cannot be logically derived. It is itself an arbitrary value.
The transmission of art also requires, that injustice be done to done who oppose it. Their opposition is valid, since there is no moral ground for the
permanence of art, yet they are discriminated against, as indicated above. Some employers, perhaps almost all, would refuse a job to anyone who
openly advocated the destruction of art. If such injustice is a necessary condition of art, and there is no other legitimation of its existence, then the
existence of art is an injustice, and should be terminated.
Just or unjust, self-perpetuating cycles and transgenerational structures, are contra-ethical. Art perpetuates itself, by accumulation, and the
transmission of the value of this accumulation. Cultures include, over generations, reverence for the permanence of art. More than this, art
perpetuates the transmission of culture including itself. Art is a central aspect of many cultures.
This permanence of art has been described here in abstract terms. In practice some real destruction of art does take place. The place of art in culture
determines this: real art is ethnic art, or national art. Art that disappears, has lost its central place in an existing culture - usually because that
culture itself has disappeared. The second part of this article, about cultures and art, is less abstract and more political.
There exists a geo-cultural structure, approximately corresponding to geopolitical structures. In practice, people refer daily to English culture, or
French culture, to ancient Egyptian art, to Brazilian art, or to the art of the Islamic world. The entities of this geo-cultural structure may be cultures of
nation states, of ethnic groups, of regions, or of larger entities called world-cultures or civilisations. They may overlap, in fact they usually do, but
that does not mean there is no structure.
The complexity of culture is sometimes used to deny its rigid and structural nature. However, internal complexity can be great, and yet exclude
external complexity. The possible moves in a game of chess are astronomically large, yet all chess games are chess games.
Consider a simple model, with unitary cultures of tribes. Tribe A invades the land of tribe B. Soon, within culture B there are pro-A collaborative
cultural tendencies, there are anti-A "B nationalists", there are A+B "multi-culturalists", their opponents in A, and B, who oppose cultural mixing, and
B revanchists. The land of A+B then invades the land of C. Now, in this land C, there pro-A collaborators, pro-B collaborators, pro A+B collaborators.
There are anti-A "C nationalists", anti-B "C nationalists", and anti A+B "C nationalists". And more: even at this level, the multiplying combinations
exceed simple factorials.
In the past there were thousands of cultures, associated with thousand of peoples. By some estimates, there still are. Combinations of their
interactions can generate an immense diversity of culture. Yet, none of that culture will be anything other than a combination of unitary cultures of
geopolitical entities.
There is every reason to believe that this is an accurate model of human culture and art: apparent diversity is hiding a huge range of possibilities
which do not fit the existing geo-cultural model. This applies to art as well. The implication of this is, that the models of culture developed in
anthropology in the 1940's and 1950's are accurate. (In fact these models reflect the general use of national or ethnic terms to describe culture).
These models were often linked to the idea of culture growth and decay, and similar organic or life-cycle metaphors. Their basis, however, was the
idea of a unitary culture corresponding to some geopolitical entity. A. L. Kroeber's 1944 Configurations of Culture Growth is a classic work of this
kind. In 1959 Rushton Coulborn could still take this approach to cultures or civilisations:
The style of a civilization is perceived as its aesthetic aspect: it is exhibited in everything the society produces and does,
pre-eminently in its arts, but also in its thought, its politics, its institutions, its traditions, and in all its ways. It is possible to qualify
a society's style, to comment upon it, to judge it even, yet hardly to describe it. It is the Chineseness" of what is Chinese, the
"Egyptianness" of what is Egyptian, the "Westernness of what is Western.
Since that time, this approach has disappeared from mainstream anthropology, only to reappear in the last 10 years, under the influence of ethnic
studies. An Afro-centric approach to art history, for instance, implies almost by definition a geo-cultural structure.
Why pretend, that there is no such a thing as African art, or English art? Partly because such approaches were discredited by their association with
Nazi Germany, or at least with Oswald Spengler and organic-social models of cultural history. But it was a common approach to history in the 1920's
and 1930s, and is now "rehabilitated" by the interest in ethnicity and identity. The model is cyclically in and out of academic fashion.
In any case, this approach is still, and always has been, the accepted approach in art history. Any introduction to art history (for students in Europe)
will present the standard sequence of styles in Europe: Romanesque, gothic, renaissance, baroque, rococo, neo-classicism. After that comes a
section on Islamic Art, or Oriental Art, which are assumed to have their own style sequence. In this case, the academic wisdom seems to be right.
In the end it cannot be proved that there is a geo-cultural structure of this kind: that is too much a question of interpretation. However, it does seem
extremely difficult to take the opposite position, that no culture or art is in any way associated with any particular people, culture, or territory.
In turn, this suggests an explanation of art: it is hyper-ethnic. Art is that within a culture which most approaches the core of that culture, and is least
accessible to outsiders. Art is the visible soul of the people, just as nationalists say. The question is, whether that gives it existence rights. It is here
that the manipulation of art-historical theory in defence of art must be noted. If art is associated with peoples, it can be associated with their state,
and so with the policies of that state - which may be unacceptable for many. Yet art never suffers from attribution of guilt by association: definitions
are manipulated, to absolve it.
If a person who is clearly a German Nazi, insists on the existence of a German art, and indicates clearly which works of art are German, what is in
that circumstance anti-Nazism? The non-Nazi defenders of art deny the truth of the claims: they say the possession of art must be disputed. They
would probably say, that in this case anti-Nazism consists in claiming that art belongs to all humanity: that it is universal. This opposition between
Nazism and universality cannot, however, justify the existence of art.
The alternative anti-Nazi position is to accept the claims as true, and destroy the German art, which the Nazi person has so conveniently listed. Not
just Nazi Germans produce such specifications: there are official lists of national art heritage, in most states in Europe. They are not intended for the
convenience of anti-nationalist iconoclasts, but they can serve that purpose.
If art is national, then it can have no legitimacy other than within the values of nationalism. If all art is national then it is legitimate to destroy it, if
anti-nationalism is itself legitimate. This legitimacy of destruction extends beyond nation states, to a geo-cultural structure in general. A geo-cultural
structure is merely one of many possible structures. The present structure is complex, but not self-legitimising. It is legitimate to oppose
pan-Africanism as a form of nationalism, and for instance, to destroy African art for that goal. Equally, it is legitimate to oppose a geo-cultural
planetary structure that includes all art, and in doing so to destroy all art.
Why not? Art is being destroyed all the time. So long as there has been art, it has been destroyed. In reality, the sacrality of art applies mainly to "our
art", not to "their art". If pan-Africanism, in 10 years time, is regarded as a form of imperialism oppressing the regional identities of the continent,
then perhaps people will burn portraits of Nkrumah. 20 years ago, statues of Lenin were art in part of Berlin. Now they are considered "propaganda of
the unjust SED state". 60 years ago, statues of Hitler were art in Berlin: now public display of any Nazi symbol is illegal. Today, art in Germany
means for instance statues of Konrad Adenauer, the pro-western post-war Chancellor.
The only constant seems to be, that art serves privilege, the nation state, the powerful, the established, the unjust. In general, art serves the existing,
which is exactly what is consistent with a self-perpetuating social structure.
It is acceptable to oppose art in general, and specific national, regional, world-cultural, or civilisational art. However, there is no wide support for the
break-up of the geo-cultural structure. The values of that structure itself are incompatible with its reform or abolition. It can however be limited in its
effects.
I therefore propose territorial separation of art. Formally, the best course would be to destroy existing art, then choose if the planet was to be
art-provided or art-free. However, there is no prospect of any global agreement
on this. Art will be in opposition to non-art, inherently.
Specifically, I propose that the United States of America should become a zone of art. The existing cultural preference in the USA for collecting art,
(especially from Europe) should be expanded into a prime function of state.
Art should be transferred from Europe to the USA, beginning with the art listed
in national heritage lists, and with recognised European heritage. I
propose as an initial step, the transfer of the Mona Lisa, the best known European artwork, to the USA. The Mona Lisa is old, and heritage. It is
better, that the past should burden the USA, than burden Europe. All artists, and those who wish to continue employment in the art sector, should be
transferred to the USA.
Any attempt at such a transfer would probably result in military intervention in support of art, perhaps by the USA. However, the nature of such a
military intervention is outside the scope of this article. In any case, it is probably true that, given the fundamental opposition between art and its
destruction, military conflict is inevitable in the long term.
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The Radar24 mixing console runs BeOS.
Tascam's SX-1 mixing console runs BeOS.
Level Control Systems has been using BeOS to control their system for a long time
(it was used for the Nagano winter olympics opening ceremoney, various Broadwar shows and the Hollywood Bowl, for example).
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we need a way to mod entire pointless articles into oblivion. Once again /. reaches new levels of pointlessness. I ask you, HOW MANY FUCKIN GANGSTA/DJ'S READ SLASHDOT? Cmon guys, It's called 'target market'. Why don't you try hitting it once in a while?
terminatorX can do this kind of thing:
terminatorX is a realtime audio synthesizer that allows you to "scratch" on digitally sampled audio data (*.wav, *.au, *.mp3, etc.) the way hiphop-DJs scratch on vinyl records. It features multiple turntables, realtime effects (buit-in as well as LADSPA plugin effects), a sequencer and an easy-to-use gtk+ GUI.
There's a tutorial which explains how to take advantage of the support for a second mouse attached to the serial port which can be plugged into a dead turntable and controls the software, allowing users to make scratches with a real turntable for that hiphop look'n'feel. Check it out, it's a great project.
but i know richie hawtin, who is an old name in tecno (a.k.a plastikman) was taking it to some gigs, so it is apparently legit.
/.ing will knock the server to hell
as a dj i have mixed feelings on this, it sounds realy cool but,
a - all of the CD dj's may switch to using these to look more credible, which will just dump MORE bed techno and trance music on the scene
and
b- startup labels might prefer to just send around digital tracks to people, instead of running a limited press of 300 or so white labels
and getting them distributed.
so in the long run talented producers will get fucked, overshadowed by the kids with no talent dumping bad tracks all over the place.
but hey, half the kids who go to parties in NY dont like good techno anyway,
tehy are into dj's like pleasure head, who spin bad trance, and just fade one track over the other but know how to market themselves and how to perform,
not only do they play the same tracks everynight, ive heard them play a track 2 times or more in one set. But i guess they cater to all the kids who got into the scene after the media played it up as such a great place to get and take e pills
anyway if u want some to listen to some good sets check out kindkidz.com, the site is decrepid and dying but there are some good sets still around and a radioshow every thursday and sunday night, although i expect even this second hand
(if anyone likes what they hear, not SEE, and wants to donate some minimal serverspace and bandwidth mail me here)
I think I heard about the BeOS version in 95 or so.
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You download the software, you get the hardware out of your mom's attic :P
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
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Mod me Offtopic eh? Scratching your own tunez these days there trigger? I stand by my post being ON topic.
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You all take a good look at this lump of shit, remember what it looks like. You fuck up in a firefight and I goddamned guarantee you a trip out of the bush - in a body bag! Out here, assholes, you keep the shit wired tight at all times. And that goes for you, shit-for-brains. You don't sleep on no fucking ambush. And the next son'bitch I catch coppin Z's in the bush, I personally am gonna take an interest in seeing them suffer. I shit you not. Doc, tag 'em and bag 'em
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This is actually pretty old. I remember it being out for Be OS years ago. It was able to function, as I remember, becaus of Be OS's low audio latency.
Unfortunatly, even with the new 'leaked' release, Be OS doesn't run on many current systems, which keeps something cool like this out of many people's hands.
I remember hearing a while back, that Mac OS had a very low audio latency aswell. I wondered if something such as this could be written for Mac OS X. Who knows, if enough people ask, maybe these people will do it.
That would be truely cool
What's the point of moderating?!
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There was discussion of final scratch back in mid-December when a user submitted a story about the DM2 and it's possible use fun/cheap music toy. This discussion in Ask Slashdot lead to other products being borught up as well, and some inciteful comments. Check out the Story.
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Just to set the stage I do dj. Been doing it for years. I also work in the computer field. There are definitely benefits to using digital media instead of vinyl.
d ex.htm and turn them into vinyl.
Vinyl is large, bulky, it must be cared for for it to last. Qualities that are hardly endearing to people today. Digital media is alot tougher (though I do have cd's that now skip). I also like the ability to change the tempo (beats per minute) of the music while mixing a cd without affecting the pitch of the music that is playing.
It is this pitch that you are playing with when you scratch. A record is just stereo sound, and analog waveform represented in vinyl. In the groove you have 2 axis. Up/down & Left/Right as seen from the stylus. The speed of the record controls the pitch. When you scratch you speed the pitch beyond normal ranges to get that sound. On a record you have a continuos smooth groove that the needle tracks on. Is there latency in the software that controls this. On a record it is just electro mechanical motion of the stylus that puts out the signal. I do not think that the signal that would come out of a "scratched" mp3 would be there, like that of a record. If this does introduce latency into the feed from the "device" to the actual output of the speaker is it really worth it? If you want to scratch your mp3's go to http://www.vestax.co.uk/flash/2002/vrx2000/vrx-in
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Mac vs. Linux, and oh BeOS too.
Well I would have to say more of the well; well known DJ's use Mac's (in fact anyone signed to Warp or Astralwerks). But remember the common folk can't afford a TiBook.
I should also mention an issue of URB where Richie rant's on about how great the Open Source (GNU/GPL) movement is and how he thinks the underground rave scene is quite similar to it . . .
No idea what issue, but it was last year and he was on the cover so I'm sure a quick search will tell you.
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Here's what I think and know:
:-(
#1 - The time code is not really time code. It's a tone and based on the change in this tone it tells how you're moving the record, it doesn't have like SMPTE time code or something like that on it.
#2 - Yes, the technology has been around a while, but not as a product you could buy, there's a big difference between something existing and something being put into wide spread application.
#3 - The reason why this is a big deal is because it's the first vinyl replacement that offers virtually all the qualities of vinyl, while still offering the advantages of using a vinyl replacement (you don't have to carry all your records, you can cue faster, you don't need to actually find music on vinyl (or even BUY it actually) etc.)
#4 - I've thought about submitting this about a billion other times but I never got around to it
#5 - to anybody who's anti-dj or whatever, don't dismiss something before you understand it.
#6 - most serious DJs are geeks (i.e. Myself) Linux is a fine choice.
#7 - Yes, a lot of musicians choose Macs, that's why they're making it for macs too.
#8 - I'm sure if you break/lose the record that Stanton will allow you to buy another one.
#9 - The ONLY trouble I've heard of people having with this when scratching is that if you're going SUPER slow (like <5RPM) that it has trouble tracking the song. NO troubles reported for mixing
The End.
thx,
hth
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I have to admit that this sounds like a good attempt though. The timecoded dummy records allow for new tricks that haven't been possible with simpler emulations.
But you have to remember that the complete vinyl experience consists of all the little stuff like
browsing your records physically in the box, checking out the covers etc.
flipping records with your bare hands instead of grabbing the mouse and fiddling with GUI displays
having that little extra snap, crackle & pop in the sound
letting people actually see what you are playing, since the record's always visible on the turntable
etc.
All these little things are what really contribute to the overall feeling that you get with turntables, it's not just the scratching interface. And you know, sometimes it's actually the slight inconvenience or difficulty of doing something that makes it feel cool. When you change it and make it easier, you also change the overall feeling and your emulation is not successful.
So, I believe that if you go digital, it's possible to come up with much better interfaces for DJ'ing than simple turntable emulation. If a GUI is going to be your primary interface (for finding the tracks you want to play etc), you should leverage the GUI and find the most natural interfaces there.
After all, scratching and pitch mixing are just 'hacks' applied to the original turntable device, which was designed for much simpler use. The possibilities of a computer with a GUI are endless and should not be limited to just these traditional ideas.
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Somehow I fail to see how a round rotatable disc is capable of controlling information. Does it scratch the CD if you try to make an unathorized copy?
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this product is not vaporware. it is out.
... and unlike playing dubs (which wear out after about 5 plays and sound like shit) he was able to scratch with them ... which normally could not happen. (if you dont know what a dubplate is, it is a cut piece of acetate which plays maybe 5 times in a club and probably about 15 times total before the needles wear the grooves out and the record sounds like hiss.
i saw dj craze (3 time world dmc champion) spin for 1.5 hours last week using it. he played maybe 3 regular plates, he played the majority of his set using final scratch.
his setup consisted of the final scratch vaio laptop, a vestax pmc05, and the final scratch hardware.
links to pictures:
http://www.junglescene.com/img/photo7557.jpg
http://www.junglescene.com/img/photo7552.jpg
note, it did not sound like he was playing mp3s. most likely he was playing the raw wav's with finalscratch. mp3s might sound good at home on your speakers, but in a packed club they sound terrible. craze spun a lot of tunes which are on dubplate at the moment
all in all it was a great set. dj craze wrecks the dancefloor.
his set is archived at www.vibeflow.com, under the "respect" (the club) archive. check it out.
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i've got a G4 350, does all the sound manipulation i need.. well... i have pushed it in Reason when i was running 25 synths at the same time,... that made a bit of skipping, heheh..
----
www.djneoform.com
MABASPLOOM!
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www.atomixmp3.com... Looks strange, but it really does the stuff.
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I'd swear to god that Fisher Price marketed a toy that had a small turntable disk in it for this sort of thing.
-
Steve's Computer Service, Hobbs, NM
I got on the info list when I first heard about this (at least 7 months ago, before DEMF).
John Acquiviva and Hawtin have been using the system for well over a year. Acquiviva used it at last year's DEMF and it was flawless.
The first release to the public was pretty high-ticket ($3000) for 3 Final Scratch records, the interface box, the software, and a Sony Vaio laptop. Initially, they had reported that the suggested retail would be somewhere around $600, but my guess is that they made the initial release include the laptop to keep the price out of the range of amateurs; people like Cowboy Neal, et al.
Every review of the system I've read basically says that its great, and it responds exactly like vinyl. But keep in mind that you need a pair of 1200's also if you really want to use this.
Its going to remain an item for pro and semi pro dj for a while; but this _will_ change the way dj'ing is done. Just give it time.
I tell you what there boy! a year are so ago i bought a Tascam CD-302. It's a duel deck DJ CD Player with Scratchem' Pads and crap. It's outrageously over priced at c. $1000, but damn it's fun. The scratching function is nothing like scratching a real vinyl, but with a lot of practice it sounds decent.
I took some vinyls and recorded them into my COMPUTAR and DRAGGED AND DROPPED THOSE WAV FILES ONTO MY CD-BERNER ICON and produced an audio CD. During playback you get all the deliscious pops and snaps and hiss, and you aren't damaging your vinyls.
HEAR THIS NOW! I recommend that if you beat mix or stuff like that, then go ahead and record your vinyls to CD and playback through a CD-302 or the like.. your vinyls will last longer and you don't have to worry about replacing needles and stuff. Plus you have access to looping and pitch shifting functions.
However if you intend to do any REAL scratching, stick to vinyl. You can get scratch like effects from digital players, but it will be a long time before they have REAL scratching. PEACE OUT MUTHA.
Its not hard to make this system yourself, if you are inclined to do so... using PD (pure data) the software would be very easy to write.
1) press a record with an audio-based timecode that readable at any playback speed. (prolly AM)
2) write some software to decode the audio signal
3) hook up your program to a synth, sampler program or whatever you want-- added bonus, its an infinitely flexible instrument.
I believe Craze is sponsored by Stanton but that does not detract from his performance at all. Craze spins drum'n'bass, a genre that is probably more entrenched in dubplate culture than any other form of dance/electronic music out there. A year or two ago, Craze came out of NOWHERE (as far as the d'n'b scene was concerned)and blindsided most of UK with his amazing performance. Most DJ's will throw in a scratch or two, beatjuggle occasionally, and perhaps drop only two bars... but the speed and constant variance that Craze pushes blows all else away. If his show can be done with these tools, there is NO reason to doubt these. Vinyl purists there will always be (I myself prefer it), but this is WAY beyond the league of "newbie-CD-decks" in terms of respectability.
:) DJ Hype has merely his label's plates and his forays into nu-breaks to compete with this, and that's not much IMO.
Offtopic, big up Craze for bringing stateside drum'n'bass to a whole new level
You know, it's funny.
Watching capitalists in action has definitely soured me on unbridled capitalism - the way big business conducts itself is disgusting to me, and I fear it more than big government (especially since big business subverts the government - witness DMCA and UCITA, just for starters). And Rand's strident condemnation of charity and welfare grates somewhat too.
But I still think she's a hell of a writer and I still reread Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead every few years. Her vision of man as heroic and life as a wonderful thing to be made the most of are very appealing - even if reality often falls short.
You are certainly entitled to your opinions on this, but I disagree.
On the other hand, "rap music" is a contradiction in terms. (Ooops, I guess that giant sucking sound is my karma heading south.)
"that's not encryption - it's a new perl script that I'm working on..." - from some Matrix parody
So here's why club DJs prefer vinyl. It actually has nothing to do with sound quality. Until recently, vinyl turntables offered the following three advantages:
1. Groove contrast
2. Needle dropping
3. Scratch cueing
Groove contrast is where you can visually locate a dance song's "breakdown" just by looking at the grooves. Very useful, and was impossible with CD or tape.
Needle dropping provides the DJ with quick random access to any part of the song. Until recently, no CD or tape player offered this feature.
Scratch cueing is where the DJ scratches the first beat of a musical phrase in time with the song that's currently playing (the outgoing song), then lets the record play when the outgoing song reaches the first beat of a phrase. Ta-daaa, the songs are in phase/sync. Until recently, no CD or tape player offered this.
Those three features are vital to club DJing ("beat mixing"). So there really was no choice, DJs had to use vinyl.
Recent pro DJ CD players like Pioneer's CDJ-1000 do a great job of emulating those features in software (in fact, Pioneer calls the CDJ-1000's scratch technology "vinyl emulation").
FinalScratch takes this a step further, though. The DJ can continue to use the tried-and-true vinyl turntables they've gotten used to over the years. That's a huge plus.
So is FinalScratch a perfect replacement? Well, I don't think so. You can't look at the record itself to see the groove contrast, you must look at the computer screen. And mechanical failures during a performance tend to be easier to fix than having software freak out on you -- I'd argue that there's less that can go wrong, but that point's debateable.
But FinalScratch is great technology, and it is going to change the way club DJs perform.
- Shawn Dodd
DJ's that travel to gigs on planes. If you check your records, there is always a possibilty that they may not make it to the city when you do. I'm not sure about the exact dimensions of these turntables, but it looks like you could carry them on the plane with you (along with the laptop) and have a plan B if the rest of your gear didn't make it to the city with you.
I was at NAMM last week and I just want to let you all know that there are quite a few companies releasing turntable methods of digital music manipulation. Two others Serato (http://www.serato.com) and Sound Graph (http://www.soundgraph.com) are using timecode vinyl similar to stanton's. The main difference between all of them will be hardware and price. Stanton's setup requires a piece of hardware with two audio inputs (from mixer), two outputs (to mixer) and usb. Serato's setup is completely software, you only need a sound card with two audio inputs. not sure how the output works though. It will be considerably cheaper though (around $200 is what I recall). Also of note, stanton and sound graph appear to be windows only, while serato was running on a mac. Numark (http://www.numark.com) is using a roller on the turntable that just keeps track of speed with position correction so you will not lose your cue point by jogging back and forth. The roller will connect to their axis 8 cd player and should cost no more than $20. No skipping, but no laptop interface either (for the time being).
Final Scratch is a stand-alone product. You do not need to use it in conjunction with any other software. Nor is it designed to be used with other programs. And seeing as DJ's will probably use their Final Scratch laptop exclusively for DJ-ing they won't care what OS it runs.
ANd this gets a patent?
Its damn obvious and deserves ZERO patents.
Playing coded records with timecodes or square waves.. jeez
Actually...
... (wait for it) ... latency.
It matters alot which OS the system uses. There are three important factors in scratching: latency, latency, and
Older Macs may have been good at this because they weren't preemtively scheduled, so the scratching app could grab control and never let go. Not the best way to make friends, but it does keep latency down.
On the "real" OS side (no, a non preemptively scheduled, non protected OS is not a real OS, which apple understood, and which is why they spent so much time and effort to finally get one) BeOS was the only OS with any decent latency. Understandable; it was designed from the ground up to do this sort of thing w/o breaking a sweat. NB: QNX is realtime, which doesn't guarantee low latency, but rather "merely" guarantees that bounds exist, not that the bounds are low.
You gotta figure, when you're mixing 180 bpm songs, that's ~300ms per beat, so a 150ms latency is the difference between perfect and couldn't-be-worse. Also, you need to take the whole input chain into account -- not just one context switch, but rather: sampling input => timecode conversion => cueing of mp3 track => decode => output. Each one of these will involve several context switches if you are unlucky. Each context switch adds unknown potential latency. It can pretty quickly add up to +/- 150 ms. Worst of all, you don't know how much (can't read the clock -- that's a syscall == latency).
So in summarium: BeOS is a natural. Older macs may be ok, by virtue of being too stupid to be in the way. Neither Mac OS X and Linux stand the proverbial snowball's chance of pulling this off.
Of course, now you throw low latency patches into the mix... round and round it goes, where it will stop nobody knows.
Alternately, a kernel module may be able to do something decent, but that basically a hack to acheive the level of sophistication of old Macs.
This is a nice toy but having to haul a desktop or laptop around with you to gigs is a pain, not to mention how unreliable using a computer for live gigs _can_ be. I personally would rather just put my songs on CD and use American DJ's Digi-Pro. It's the same concept but the digipro is actually a dual cd player unit (fully functional) + interface + singal noise vinyl.
The digi pro makes more sense since it can play regular cds also. You get vinyl mixing + cd mixing + the ability to scratch on both. This unit may be more expensive but it fills in more holes than a pc to vinyl unit can.
...
http://mentalfloss.ca/beta/aural/dj
----
http://mentalfloss.ca - Free music that doesn't suck
Except that BeOS' latency measures in 250 microsoconds and QNX's latency measures in 1-2 microseconds, guaranteed. Just on latency measure alone, QNX has an edge by a factor of more than 100 to 1.
Also this is a professional turnkey product, with known hardware and software requirements. Final Scratch comes with a 500 MHz laptop and 2 turntables. Since there are only 2 turntables --- there is no need to play 10-15 mp3's simultaneously as in numerous BeOS demostrations ---- that makes QNX a much better OS option than BeOS because you can calculate the minimum hardware requirements much more easily with RTOS'es. If they used QNX, they could have easily figured it out that may be a slower CPU can do this job, guaranteed by a hard realtime operating system.
This isn't about scratching, it's about beat matching. The article talks about how it's not very good for scratching and cutting.
It's for tempo/pitch control.
actually, there's an article at apple's site which claims that latency in os x is down to 1ms, from 10ms in the classic mac os.
and i can't find it right now, but i also read another article somewhere that showed that os x had virtually no latency when doing dedicated audio, so i think os x probably stands a snowball's chance here.
london is drowning and i live by river
When Final Scratch was selling it themselves, if I remember correctly, the price was somewhere around $3,000. Now that Stanton has purchased the technology, they plan to offer it to the public largescale - for $500! This is incredible news. The $3,000 made it neat but unrealistic (for me), but I'm definately buying this now. Go Stanton! (btw, the original www.finalscratch.com site is apparently gone now. Couldn't get google's cached copy to work past the splash page either.)
The Terminator Mouse Turntable's sensor measures movement of the damn platter.
Any fool knows that you don't scratch by moving the platter, it's way to heavy! The record rests on a "slipmat". Which is the reason that you can stop it by just using your finger-tip (and possibly the reason that you 11 years old fucked up the motor of your own 100$ turntable when trying to scratch on it).
I believe that the only way to create the feeling of a REAL turntable would be measure the rotation of a record resting on a slipmat. Wether it would sound right or not (which I STRONGLY doubt) I don't know.
There are more reasons than purly historical for that people who know how to scratch (like ISP) use tables like vestax pdxa2s instead of stuff like this.
Another note, you obviously need a crossfader, transformers and all the other ports to get ANY real feal. But, picking a pmc07pro (the standard dj battle mixer) or some other nice mixer apart and modding it should be pretty easy.
In any case, I doubt that you'll get the sound right and I'll keep my analog equipment for the time beeing.
More stupid rap shit for more stupid rap shit poeple.
it might be wise to try and avoid making such detailed comments when you actually don't know what you're talking about. Audio latency on linux can be easily reduced to about 2.6ms at 48kHz on most current audio interfaces. At 96kHz, it can go down to 1.3ms. Yes, you need to be running the low latency patch for this to work well, and the application is question has to be written by someone who understands real time programming (true for any OS, including BeOS). You say "where it will stop, nobody knows" - I'm here to tell you that it stops there, and that in addition, i don't understand your response to this patch. Its widely understood to be necessary for Linux, has existed in various forms for more than 2 years, and is a reasonable candidate for mainstream inclusion at some point. with some cards, its possible to go significantly below these figures. The low latency patch seems to make numbers down to around 0.75ms feasible. Context switches take a tiny amount of time compared to the numbers we're talking about here. There is a constant component, which on a PII 450, which is by now an ancient CPU, is about 20usecs, and a variable component that depends on how much of the cache contents associated with the task has been invalidated since it last ran. This can cause a significant increase in the effective context switch time, but its quite manageable. nobody in their right minds would be using different threads for the i/o chain you describe. "can't read the clock - thats a syscall - latency". it takes about 60usec to call gettimeofday on a PII 450. if thats too slow, you can use the rdtscl instruction (intel only), which takes about 12 cycles. If you're interested in audio on linux, i suggest you join either the linux-audio-development or the linux-audio-users mailing lists. There's a lot of expertise there that you could learn from, and perhaps some things you could contribute. Paul Davis
Linux Audio Systems
Our rough unscientific study showed almost nobody uses computers to perform. Of those that do, Mac is a first choice and we take that very seriously. As for the vast majority of performers that don't use computers on stage: Why not start them off right? Most performers fear computers will mess up their act. You only have Micro$oft to blame for that. That it works is important, that it doesn't let you down is most important and it must sound 'real' on a big system. No M$ soundsystem can even produce CD quality audio.
Bill Squire
Electrical Engineer
N2IT Development BV
Amsterdam, NL
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=99/03/31/151522 8&mode=flat
I stand duly corrected.
My own rough unscientific study shows that you don't know what you're talking about. Musicians that make music on their computers (there's a whole lot of them nowadays) take their computers with them on stage when they perform. Macs, mostly, because most of the musicians you'll have heard of will have started doing their thing back in the day when there wasn't any reasonable audio app. for PCs. Not anymore. So now there's an increasing amount of PC-musicians starting to get good and playing live as well. Trust me, I've seen them do it. No glitches, crashes, nothing, and yes, it was CD quality. Get with the times.
News and bla for computer musicians: http://lomechanik.net/
Pioneer sells equipment for DJs that can do real-time "scratching" with CDs. The "turntables" are pressure-sensitive, so you can even slow the track down by gently pressing on them. My roommate has a pair of these and they're really fun.
See Pioneer's page for the CDJ-1000 for marketing.
Anyone that knows, a bigger advicate to the technology is John Acquaviva who has been in to the company from the start. I saw him on New Years eave and i don't think that he even brought any normal vinyl with him.. everything came off his finalscratch machine. So go check out his site www.jacq.com and slashdot his server.
-b
I suspect plenty of people thought of putting timecode on vinyl (or at the very least, relative-distance-from-start-of-groove-code, which is functionally equivalent) to scratch digital media, and independently derived methods to do so "from first principles." Because I sure did, and I'm not even that smart or industrious.
So if they develop those ideas into products, and sell them for a lot less than the exorbitant $500 you're charging for FinalScratch, then they deserve to wipe up the court with your greedy asses.
BTW - I saw Craze a few months ago, and you're right, he is incredible. Juggling dnb and hip hop all night. The kids were going nuts.
I independently developed a similar system about the same time as final scratch showed up. In a system like this, the OS latency (assuming BeOS or Linux with amorton's LL patches) is nothing compared with the resolution of the input device.
Final scratch, since it uses a 44.1Khz sound card as input, and has to support speeding up of the record between 2x and 4x therefore has a maximum resolution of 22Khz or 11Khz, depending on their upper end detectable speed. My system used a rotary encoder with a small gear ratio compared to the record size. With a encoder rate of 1024 ticks/rev I easily achieved over 40Khz.
Of course, business reality (small market, primarly uninterested in technology) prevented commercial exploition of the system. I applaud the final scratch inventors for pressing on. Scratching CDs and MP3s on turntables is compelling. Its unfortunate that it is not tenable from a business perspective.