Palm Releases New Wireless Handheld

Hadlock writes: "Well, palm has finally released their second-generation wireless Palm product. You can check out all of Palm's info at their 701i page, located right here. The Palm comes in a white color, using standard m100/505 design cues, the only real innovation here being the dual-color LED that signals either a wireless signal, or 'You've got mail,' as there are some AOL tie-ins, Instant Messenger being preloaded on the 701i. Palm also releases their mini qwerty keyboard, retailing at $60 USD." AOL isn't the only tie-in: the release here also touts the ability to "create, edit or view" various Microsoft-format documents.

Comments

Check out the Flash

[foo fighter]

The interactive demo is the best way to see what is new with this device.

$449!

[Sc00ter]

To little, to late, and TO EXPENSIVE!

A friend of mine just recently showed me his Compaq iPaq handheld that he loaded debian on, much better. I thought it was way cool. Plus he has this wireless service from Verizon and it's only $25/month for unlimited! Of course it's pcmcia and he needed the pcmcia adapter for his iPaq, but still.. very very cool. And you can get the model he had for about what this thing costs, and it has color.

Re:$449!

[jafuser]

I agree.

Clie PEG-S320 ($199)
+ Nokia 3360 ($free-$200 depending on if you sign a contract)
+ $20/month dial-up
< $449 + $50/month mobitex network

Plus, with my setup, I get a real TCP/IP connection which allows me to use interactive applications like telnet, AIM, etc...

I'm glad I got tired of waiting for this back in November. Sony is so far ahead of Palm with hardware, it's quite laughable what Palm is coming out with now.

Re:$449!

[scoove]

To little, to late, and TO EXPENSIVE!

I owned a Palm VII. Found the wireless service horribly slow, pricey (yet another indication that measured use only discourages people from becoming loyal customers) and useful really only for email (the little web-like applications were terribly limited). The Palm ended up being used 99% of the time as my calendar.

I bought a Compaq Ipaq with 802.11b card and back for the Ipaq this fall. I use it nonstop, love the real browser, the speed and openness of the connection (I can run it at home, work, coffee shop, etc.), and absolutely love the price! (Now, if it could only run Netstumbler...

So, unless it completely falls apart, I'd suggest Palm might become a nice acquisition for AOL/TW. Use that Netscape browser for a change and put out wireless browsers with AOL email. Yea, it'd be gross and for the masses, but perhaps AOL/TW would understand the scale necessary to push this product and get it everywhere for $99. Otherwise, Palm's proved once again that the Apple route is the best way to guarantee failure.

*scoove*

Re:What a great step forward

[seinman]

That's not all. This is an always-on wireless device. You don't have to pull it out and click a bunch of things just to check your mail, it alerts you automatically when it comes. I'm no Palm fan (I own a PocketPC myself) but the fact is it's NOT just a fancy looking VII.

Where are the killer apps?

[pointym5]

The wireless PDA thing has been around for a while in various forms. So where are the applications that are going to make it an imperative for some market segment to invest in the things? Maybe I'm not paying attention, but I can't even think of any *attempts* at killer apps. I mean, AOL IM? I'm going to carry around one of these things so people can message me? I've got a pager and a cell phone that most people find workable.

Where are the apps that wiggle in to some part of everybody's daily life and change it forever? To me, anything that requires me to behave much differently than I do now is probably doomed, as only gadget-heads will play. But something that made sense to soccer moms, and something that they could grow to find indispensible, that'd be the key for this to take off. And that'd be wonderful for the gadget heads, because ubiquity would make a lot more applications viable.

Re:Where are the killer apps?

[sulli]

Well, I never use AIM, but there are millions who swear by it. (Kind of how some people swear by IRC.) AIM on Palm is actually something that these millions might find useful - think of the cellphone users who SMS each other all day in Europe and Asia. (And here, though fewer as it doesn't work well.)

Would I buy it? No, because my Palm V still works fine. But it does seem like a useful device.

Can you roll over your Palm VII service?

[Nomad7674]

There is no information thereabouts on whether or not current Palm VII users (especially those committed for a year) can roll over their service to the Palm i705.

Though, personally, without a color screen and more RAM, I have no reason to pay $500 to upgrade.

Re:Can you roll over your Palm VII service?

[cpfeifer]

Since the Palm VII also uses Mobitex as the wireless network, I would think that you could either add your next i705 to your existing account, or create a new account and have them waive the activation fee.

Palm vs WinCE devices?

[rabtech]

Let's see.... with Palm I can get:

+ Less memory (usually 8 or 16 versus 64)
+ fewer applications
+ only one model that has color

Or I can buy an iPaq (like I did) and get 64MB of memory plus 32MB of ROM, a 16-bit color screen that is as big as the standard Palm screen PLUS their little writing area (which I can emulate for input if I don't wanna use the excellent handwriting recognition.)

Decisions, decisions...

Re:Palm vs WinCE devices?

[Trinition]

Oh, please, stop with this marketing FUD. That's as bad as saying MHz are the only metric by which to gauge the performance of a CPU. Let's consider some things:

• WinCE/PPC requires you to parition your memory between storage and execution (i.e. virtual hard drive and RAM). PalmOS runs programs in place -- thus, there is no concept of storage RAM vs. execution RAM. So, a Palm uses its memory more effectively than a WinCE/PPC device.
• PalmOS programs are significantly smaller than WinCE/PPC programs, thus requiring less RAM to begin with.
• The PalmOS UI is far simpler than the PPC, thus requiring less memory and executing in fewer clock cycles.
• Last I checked, every analyst out there pointed out that PalmOS has far MORE applications than WInCE/PPC.

Re:Palm vs WinCE devices?

[Kithraya]

My experience is that I can store *many* more programs on my Palm than I could on my iPaq. It's not just that Palm can get by with what it's got, but that WinCE needs to add about 128 megs before it can touch what the Palm can handle.

But I'm not sure that's really a problem. Has *anyone* found 32 megs worth of applications they actually want for WinCE?

Re:Palm vs WinCE devices?

[Dr. Manhattan]

PalmOS programs are significantly smaller than WinCE/PPC programs, thus requiring less RAM to begin with.

Yup, CISC vs. RISC. The RISC opcodes do less, so a given program needs more of 'em to get the job done. The biggest program on my Palm is LispME; a full Scheme environment in 137K.

You also missed another benefit of the Palms; sure, you can't play Quake on a 16-33MHz CPU, but the batteries last for at least weeks instead of the hours you get with a 206MHZ CPU...

Re:Palm vs WinCE devices?

[Lumpy]

sorry but I can get 10 fold more apps for my palm than all the wince devices combined.

Palm has any windows based device slammed hard in the sheer number of apps available.

Re:Palm vs WinCE devices?

[Matey-O]

Fud? You're telling HIM to stop with the FUD?

How bout a system with NO architectural improvements in three years. A $450 device that's still Black and White and runs at what? (It's not mentioned, but I doubt it's more than 33 Mhz. Don't gimmie 'it doesn't NEED more' If it's got more, somebody will USE it.)

Having a TON of CRAPPY software is not an improvement. The CE devices have the same amount of QUALITY software as the Palm's do. Name any Palm application, I bet there's a PPC2002 equivalent.

Where's this thing's 802.11 connectivity? Where's it's ability to connect to network drive shares? PPC with 802.11 can _natively_ communicate with a SQL database. What databases do Palm talk to...off the device? What's the quality of it's sound output?

Looking at the Expansion tab on the mockup, they've got a dictionary description of innovation. Um. WHAT innovation? Sony's got higher res, more memory and color. The only thing this has over a Palm 7 is a memory slot and constant on- slow- expensive- wireless.

Re:Palm vs WinCE devices?

[rabtech]

FUD is an acronym for "Fear Uncertainty and Doubt", not "an opinion with which I disagree."

I don't work for Microsoft, and never have. I certainly didn't get paid to post that, so I am wondering where you have the gall to call it 'marketing' -- it is my opinion, which I will express as often and as freely as I like.

Let's assume that a WinCE device requires twice as much memory as an equivalent Palm device, just for grins. That means a 16MB palm is similar to a 32MB WinCE device, right? Well then... where are the 32MB standard Palm devices? That's easy... they don't make them.

So this 8MB standard i70x palm they are releasing is akin to a 16MB WinCE device by your standards. My iPaq came with 64MB standard. I think you see where this is going...

The PalmOS UI sucks compared to the PocketPC 2002 setup, in my opinion. If Palm works better for you, GREAT. More power to ya. But for me? I prefer having the greater flexibility the iPaq and WinCE offer me. Especially in terms of input... sure, I can emulate the block mode that Palms use, complete with the two areas for letters/numbers at the bottom of the screen. The difference is that when I am not inputting anything into a text box, that GOES away giving me more screen realestate. Of course I usually use the transcriber mode where I can just jot stuff down on the screen anywhere and it will pickup my handwriting. Or I can call up a mini-keyboard to occupy the same space that Palm's input panel would use. The point is that it gives me more usable screen space and more flexibility.

Go ahead and try running a Game Gear emulator on the latest color palm, or playing back a full screen, full length DVD on it. You won't get nearly as far as my iPaq.

Oh, battery usage? with backlight off (as I am usually in rooms with decent light conditions), I get days. Using autobacklight, it adjusts itself to the ambient light. With that mode I can easily go a whole day with the thing on pretty much nonstop.

Palm's hardware sucks compared to the vast array of Pocket PC devices; there is little point in making excuses. Instead, Palm should be encouraged to release a wider variety of devices into the lower and higher end markets in order to drive greater competition with Pocket PC manufacturers.

Re:Palm vs WinCE devices?

[jrockway]

Play DVD's? WTF? I use my Palm to store appointments,notes,etc., and run a lisp program once in a while... why the hell do I need a DVD player in my pocket? PalmOS tries to be a clean environment for an organizer, it's simple and nicely laid out. Windows/PPC or whatever it is tries to win you over with pretty colors and crappy handwriting recognition. It's trying to be a desktop computer with 64M of ram and a 2" screen. I'll take my TiBook, thanks :)

Re:Palm vs WinCE devices?

[biglig2]

As mentioned above, the Palm is a PDA, the PPC is a miniature computer. Not the same thing. My Palm does *everything* I need in a box that's 2/5 the price of an Ipaq, much smaller, better battery life.

Yes, an Ipaq or jornada is much more powerful, and would do more, but it's more I don't need, and the cost ($, size, battery life) is one I don't want to pay for stuff I don't use.

Don't assume that 8Mb Palm = 16Mb WinCE. 90% of Palm users find 8Mb more than enough - so it's probably analagous to a 64Mb WinCE box. The 2Mb M100 is the lowest RAM palm anyone ships these days - that's analagous to a 16Mb WinCE box. I've never filled my 8Mb. I do have a 16Mb SD card, but that's just to let me keep lots and lots of books on it rather than just the 2-3 I'm currently reading.

Sure, I can't play GameGear games on it - or MAME, which to me is more serious. But it's a PDA, not a gameboy! It plays enough simple games (chess, solitaire, minesweeper, tetris, Scrabble) for bored moments away from one of my real PCs.

Sure, I can't play DVD or MP3 on it. But I have a laptop for that - so I get a proper screen for the DVD. And MP3? I can buy an ipod for the difference in price between my M500 and an Ipaq.

You can go a day with it nonstop? Great, if that works for you. I need my PDA to never run out of juice, even if I spend a long weekend away from my cradle. Which it does.

Re:Palm vs WinCE devices?

[iCEBaLM]

You don't need as much ram with Palms as you do with PocketPC's. The applications for Palms are so incredibly small, the largest ones only take 1 MB, for those - use an expansion card, that's what it's there for.

8-16 MB on a Palm device is sufficient.

-- Warren

Re:Palm vs WinCE devices?

[GreyPoopon]

Or I can buy an iPaq (like I did) and get 64MB of memory plus 32MB of ROM

Although I agree with you and greatly prefer the iPaq to the Palm, I'm not sure that I'd be touting Microsoft's seeming inability to code efficiently enough to keep their handheld operating system in less than 32MB of ROM. In this case, more doesn't necessarily mean better.

The RAM, on the other hand, is a definitely a good thing. Personally, I'd like to see a 128MB model.

Re:Palm vs WinCE devices?

[rabtech]

H3835 can play a DVD. To do so you need:

+ 128MB SD memory expansion card, or a 128MB or greater compact flash card
+ A PC with DeCSS and/or DVD ripping program
+ Windows media encoder 7.1

Basically just rip the DVD as if you were going to convert it to DivX, then load the AVI into Windows media encoder. On the latest version of the encoder, there is are specific pocket PC profiles... just select one and let it go. The resultant file should be about 120MB, small enough to fit on the card.

Windows Media Player on the iPaq is even smart enough to turn the widescreen DVDs sideways for better viewing.

I guess we agree on one thing: Palm doesn't have an offering in the high-end PDA market. I just think they should... it wouldn't hurt their existing line to offer such a thing.

Re:Palm vs WinCE devices?

[Xerithane]

It's trying to be a desktop computer with 64M of ram and a 2" screen.

Oh shit, I think you are on to them. They better change their name so something more obscure, like, oh I dont know, PocketPC?

why the hell do I need a DVD player in my pocket?

Probably the same reason why you think it's necessary to question other peoples motives for owning things. Because, some people use those features. I find it funny people who fail to understand things outside of their perception.

I use my CLIE to play games on the train, and write documentation to code - because it's the best way for me to do it. If I used my PalmOS device for much more, I would probably go with something more powerful.

It's the same debate over and over, like WAV vs. MP3.. Sure, WAVs are bigger but it's lossless, etc. So, silence yourself troll. Try harder next time to make a bit more sense.

Hehe

[IceFox]

I have that right now with my Zaurus (built in keyboard) and Kinkatta (aim application).

For anyone that was at ces and saw me, I was walking around chatting with folks back in Boston about what I was seeing (confirming that Royal's new pda was nothing more then a plastic prototype)

Best part about the Zaurus for me is that it is based on open source and I can add anything new that I want (as I did with Kinkatta).

I wonder if palm came out with it's keyboard just because of the pressure from the Zaurus?

Also where would you put the keyboard thingy if you wanted to keep you Palm in any sort of case?

-Benjamin Meyer

Re:Hehe

[MemRaven]

Probably not. The real competition for Palm isn't Linux heads, it's Research in Motion's BlackBerry service, which just provides that keyboard (no handwriting recognition). There are a lot of similarities between the RIM platform in terms of email service with what the 701 is providing. And look at the Treo from Handspring, which is going to provide the keyboard before it even provides the Graffiti writing area. Plus things like european cell phones have already started to incorporate better little mini-keyboards for doing emails and SMS messages (Nokia has a bizarre looking phone with an MP3 player and keyboard for doing SMS messages and emails).

I hate to burst your bubble, but in all likelihood the absolute last thing on Palm's mind for something like the 701 is the Zaurus, it's the things that are actually selling in volume and eating into Palm's sweet spot, like cell phones in Europe and RIM in the US. For their other products, they're probably more concerned about WinCE devices, which is where the Zaurus is also competing (for more powerful PDAs that are really almost corporate tools than organizers).

I do agree with you that the lack of storage for the keyboard will be tricky. I've seen people in business settings for years with the fold-away attachable notebook-sized keyboards for Palms, and they just have one more thing to carry to a meeting. Then again, if they just provided a simple cover for a combination of 701 and mini-keyboard, most people wouldn't care about a true "case".

Next Generation?

[Anonymous Coward]

What is so "Next Generation" about the i705? Is it the standard(non-compelling) 8MB of memory, or the "Sir-Computes-A-Lot" 33mhz processor that's supposed to be a significant jump over previous versions?

Sad state of affairs...

[fmaxwell]

It's a sad state of affairs when the most desirable Palm platform handhelds are made by Sony and Handspring. This latest Palm doesn't do much for me. I don't want to subscribe to some overpriced service to get connectivity. The display is still the same resolution (160x160) that it was years ago while the Sony Clies have four times as many pixels (320x320). This device offers no more memory than my $150 Palm M105 and only half of what modern Handspring Visors have. It's not the sleek, ultra-thin design that Sony has for their Clie line.

As much as I like Palm handhelds, I really think that the end is near for them. Their products are no longer innovative, market leaders. Instead, they just rerelease the same features in new cases.

Re:Sad state of affairs...

[clark625]

Hang on a second. Granted, Palm hasn't done anything here that should shock the majority of people into getting one of these "new" handhelds. I, for one, won't be buy it. Neither will the vast majority of people.

My boss, on the other hand, won't come anywhere near a handheld that isn't a Palm. He loves the software that loads on his desktop. He loves the fact that he and his... assistant can synchronize their schedules or that she can make the schedule for him--and all he needs to do is put the Palm in the cradle.

Trust me, when my boss finds out that he'll be able to check his e-mail from anywhere on this new Palm; he's gonna want one. He's already seen the devices from someone else (not sure who) that do this; but he wasn't willing to go with a company he doesn't know. He wants to stay with Palm. And now he's going to get this and all the extra bells and whistles, too.

Personally, I don't want to check my e-mail from the potty. My boss would, though. He also would want to have the "I'm so cool" factor. It's people like this that Palm is going for; and there are a lot more people like that than you think. Check with your company's Execs and marketing department for starters. Vanity runs rampant around there.

Re:Sad state of affairs...

[fmaxwell]

My boss, on the other hand, won't come anywhere near a handheld that isn't a Palm. He loves the software that loads on his desktop. He loves the fact that he and his... assistant can synchronize their schedules or that she can make the schedule for him--and all he needs to do is put the Palm in the cradle.

I am a die-hard PalmOS fan, too. I wouldn't consider a Windows-based handheld because they lack the usability, small size, and long battery life of the Palm machines. But tell me why I should pay $450 for a new PalmOS handheld from Palm when I can get higher resolution, more memory, and wireless connectivity if I need it, from a Sony or Handspring PalmOS handheld.

The new Palm offers almost nothing over the old Palm VIIx. Same memory (8mb). Same screen size (160x160). Wireless connectivity, just like the VIIx. The only real difference that I can see is USB (vs. serial) connectivity and an expansion slot. That's just not enough progress in what is, in the computer field, an eternity.

Re:Sad state of affairs...

[curunir]

Trust me, when my boss finds out that he'll be able to check his e-mail from anywhere on this new Palm; he's gonna want one.

Ummm...hate to break it to you, but he's been able to download mail to his palm for quite some time now. The Palm 7's have wireless connectivity and a mail client. The only new feature here is the message notification feature which downloads mail automatically for you.

This feature would be nice, but I've heard the implementation is pretty bad. Supposedly, when it recieves a new mail notification, it only downloads that message instead of all new mail (not a good idea in a high latency environment). Also, since the PalmOS is a single threaded OS, there really isn't a concept of a "background process" which would be needed to effectively implement this feature. So, if its downloading mail, the rest of the OS will likely be really slow. I don't know about you, but if I've got 20 mail messages waiting for me when I power up my Palm, it'd really annoy me to have it move really slowly for a half hour.

I love Palm and hope they can get their act together to come out with an updated OS that fully utilzes the new hardware. But I don't think it's anywhere near where it needs to be to compete. It would be a shame to see another innovator go out of business only to see their market controlled by Microsoft.

Re:Sad state of affairs...

[nehril]

no kidding. I got a Kyocera Smartphone with verizon service and it ROCKS. The Smartphone is basically a cell phone that runs PalmOS (similar size black and white screen).

The phone acts as a modem, and verizon gives you a "free" ip address (it burns normal minutes if you log into their ISP, takes about 10 seconds). I can run any PQA and I can tap a phone number in the address book to dial it.

It can receive SMS messages via email gateway, and it comes with Eudora. I setup my email to fork a copy to the phone's email address, so I get wireless email notification. I can download the full message in Eudora, and respond or do whatever. Screw blackberry.

The "batman belt of death" is over for me: my cell phone, pager and Handspring Visor are all replaced by this one device. Battery life is about 60 hours standby, longer if you shut the phone off.

My major wishlist items for this phone are a color screen and some kind of MP3 playback ability. Then it would be the end all of belt gadgets!

No MS tie in

[Samus]

Sorry Timothy the created edit msoffice docs is not a tie in with M$. This functionality is provided by a 3rd party application. Sony also bundles it with their Clie products. I forget the name of it right now though.

too little, too late

[Noodlenose]

Unfortunately, Palm has lost the battle for the handheld with their lack of vision to provide timely hardware.

Shame, really: that's another independent manufacturer down the drain...

Dirk

Only 8MB?

[justin_w_hall]

That's a bit disappointing. Handspring's Visor Pro has 16MB. It kinda bumped up the standard (at least in my mind). I'm surprised Palm didn't spring for the extra 8. The thing's already $449, you'd think that they wouldn't mind kicking the price up a bit more for such an important feature.

Argh!

[Yoda2]

"You've got mail" and Instant Messaging!? Great, now people can annoy you no matter where you are.

Re:Argh!

[M-G]

It should still less annoying than the armies of Nextel users....

document editing

[Low Key]

who really cares about document editing abilities on a handheld anyway? I'd rather shoot myself than try to edit a word document on my handheld. Might as well use a rock and chisel.

Re:Miniature Keyboards...

[reaper20]

Agreed, IMO the RIM Blackberry has by far the most intuitive interface on any handheld out there. I know and use Graffiti, but that little keyboard is very nice.

I guess that's why I'm drooling waiting for the Handspring Treo with a similar keypad...

palm.net

[ehackathorn]

From my understanding the only way to get Internet access is the palm.net service agreement. Not that I would buy either one, but I would certainly stay away from their "associate plan!" 100KB is next to nothing and at 20 cents for each additional KB I think most people would surpass the "executive plan" in less than a week.
Also, $40 dollars for the exectutive plan still seems a little expensive...

Click here for the palm.net rates.

Re:palm.net

[Sabalon]

Actually, once the first two months of having it wears off, and you get used to the fact that the thing is a pain in the ass to do anything other than check the weather, your usage drops off quite a bit.

Re:palm.net

[jandrese]

Heck, I use the $10/month 50kb plan myself (on a Palm VII work bought me). Honestly, if you don't go nuts it's pretty easy to stay within the limit. For instance, reading Slashdot (just the headlines, then the writeups for a couple of articles, then maybe a comment or two) eats up about 4-5kb of data traffic (depending on the length of the writeup and the comment). You also generally don't compose a magnum opus on your palm when sending via email either, so the email data traffic is pretty reasonable. I've got about 100 different web clipping apps installed, all of which are optimized for low bandwith.

It's not as flexible as a real web browser (although I do have the google app installed...), but it has generally been sufficent. Strangely, I actually used less bandwidth in the first few months I had it before I realized that I wasn't using half of my 50kb a month and began to loosen up a bit.

Hmm, looking at the service plans listed I appear to be grandfathered. My old $10/month plan isn't even listed anymore. That's a shame, since I think the casual users of the service really appreciated the limited (cheap!) version.

Re:palm.net

[jandrese]

I know it's bad form, but I have to post my number one annoyance with palm.net as a followup to my own post.

So far I have been completely unable to find a way to get your current kb usage statistics through the palm. I woudln't mind even blowing a few bytes to check it. The only way to see how many kb you have remaning is to go to palm's website (which requires a recent IE) and drill down to your account statistics.

MS Document "tie-in"?

[Anonymous Coward]

The MS Document stuff is not a "tie in" with Microsoft as seems to be implied here - it's provided by 3rd party software, Documents to Go.

Re:Coverage Maps Useless

[cpfeifer]

I used a CDPD modem with my PalmV for a little while, and while it was neat, there was a small problem with the modem's form factor. If you were less than gentle while you were using it, the modem would shift a little bit and easily get disconnected from the palm and disconnected from the network. Then you would typically have to power cycle the unit and wait for it to handshake with the network. Kind of a pain just to read email.

The new palm mentioned in this article uses the Mobitex network. This is an 'always on' radio network that is also used by the very popular Blackberry devices by Research in Motion. Mobitex coverage in the US looks pretty good, and there's even Mobitex networks in other countries throughout the world.

Yippee.

[jht]

This is the Palm that they were afraid to release before Xmas? Whoopdee-doo. The one thing it has going for it is a fairly compact form factor relative to other wireless PDA's. But other than that, it's pretty underwhelming and at an expensive price. I'd at least expect to see color for the price.

I mean, to compare it to other wireless platforms, I really don't think it stacks up too well. A Palm Vx/Omnisky (or Go America) unit is less expensive and not much larger (with detachable wireless modem), an iPaq with an expansion sleeve is far more versatile, capable and way faster, and a Blackberry is smaller and easier to use as an e-mail device (the larger x57 has web capabilities similar to Palm's) - they only lack a touch screen. And the big deal is, I guess, that this comes in white?

I had been using Palm devices since the old Pilot 5000 (it replaced a MessagePad), with a Palm III and a Vx in my collection over time. My wife has an M100 - it's a nice, cheap, reasonably rugged PDA for what it is. I've been an adherent to the "simpler is better" school of PDA usage. But a couple of months ago I bought an iPaq 3765, and I started using my Palm less and less. In fact, my Vx hasn't left the cradle in over a month now. The iPaq isn't that much bigger, and I can (and do) use it with an 802.11b card to take advantage of my homenet. Windows CE is klunky, but the 2002 version doesn't suck nearly as bad as my old (free, elsewise I'd never have owned it) HP Jornada did, and I can use it with my Mac now thanks to some slick third-party software. As the Linux distro (Familiar) for the iPaq matures, I'll probably switch to it eventually.

Looking at the new Palm, they just plain seem to have missed the boat. Hopefully the new generation of Palm devices after this one will catch up with the rest of the world, and soon. Palm pretty much invented the modern PDA market, and it's a shame to see them shooting themselves in the foot like this.

cnet radio prerelease hype

[Alien54]

Looks like the talking heads over at cnet radio were right about the release date, but were wrong about it being in color. But that may have been merely confusion generated by the buzz during the past week.

For those who do not know cnet radio is on the air, broadcasting on am radio (890) in the Boston area, in addition to being on air in the bay area. kinda neat, but you got to watch the hype mobile that occasionally drives on through. Also, San Jose traffic reports are funky to listen to when cruising the streets of Boston.

They were blathering about this on a couple of the shows since the middle of last week.

Yawn

[NiftyNews]

Someone wake me when those lazy scientists finally stop slacking and invent what I really want: A tiny computer I can just wedge into my skin!

I'd also like to use my hand as a telephone, so keep that in mind too, scientists.

Re:Yawn

[allanc]

Um... I don't want to sound like one of the Natalie Portman, Hot Grits, and Goatse.cx crowd here but I for one wouldn't want a telephone embedded in my hand.

There are all sorts of unpleasant possibilities for misdialing while looking at porn on the computer embedded into your skin.

On the plus side, they could call that hypothetically hand-embedded handheld a Rosy Palm...

--AC

Why compare?

[Diabolical]

Why is it everyone seems to try and compare the palm devices with the iPaq... it's apple's and pears here...

The way i see it you purchase such a device because you need it's functionality. The palm can go WAY longer without recharging its battery while the iPaq needs to be recharged almost every day. The company for which i work has 2 standards on PDA. iPaq's for those that only need it for coolness factor (i.e. the management... ) and palm devices for those on the actual workfloor... the reason is very simple... the managment almost always leave the damn thing docked most of the day (excpet during meetings because they need to show of the damn things) while the people on the workfloor need to be able to rely on it's durability..

Off course.. an iPaq running linux would be cool enough to forget the low battery life.. ;-)

Re:Why compare?

[jockm]

Speek for yourself, I take my iPaq with me almost everywhere, and use is quite a bit during the day. I only tend to recharge it about once a week. The secret is to use the backlight only when you really need it.

Mind you on days that I use it for heavy MP3 playing, watching movies, or using the AirCard I need to recharge more often.

Re:Why compare?

[Diabolical]

Okay.... tell this to someone who does not care about it like my managers... they want to show the fscking to their o so important to impress bussiness partners.... so the backlight is important...

Anyway, the palm devices are recharged each week because at the end of the week most people put it in it's cradle till next monday.. but normally it could go longer without recharging... of course it depends on what's done with it. If the apps are pretty heavy on the power consuming side it's drained more quickly then normal.

But why would i need an iPaq for viewing movies? This is more a coolness thing then a nescesity.. (which i can dig personally ;-)

Oh well... everyone's mileage may very of course... i know that some of the managers are not happy with it because of compat problems with Lotus Notes (company standard mail server and cliënt). But what can you expect.. the synchro takes use Lotus EasySync and MS-Activesync as a conduit so this is at the very least a problem causing setup.. (this and the fact that it is used by nitwits... ;-)

The same goes for Palm devices.. but somehow the combination works better...

Re:Why compare?

[jockm]

But why would i need an iPaq for viewing movies?

So I can watch something on long plane rides...

Re:Why compare?

[macpeep]

Disclaimer: I've owned a Palm IIIx and now own an iPAQ. For both, I used / use them extensively for email and accessing stuff on the web, etc.

I used to think it was a really important thing that the Palm IIIx could go about a month without changing batteries.. But the thing is: I have to sleep and while I sleep, the iPAQ recharges. It is never low on battery. It lasts for at least one day and I just put it on charging when I go to bed. If I use it for just basic calendar & task list functionality, it lasts about a week. When I travel, I just take the charger with me.. It's very light weight and is no problem at all. In countries with different electrical sockets than in Finland, I just use a plug converter that I'd bring along anyway.

As far as the size go.. I think people totally over estimate the size advantage of a Palm vs. Pocket PC devices. I use the same leather case for my iPAQ that I used for the Palm IIIx. In fact, I think the iPAQ might be a little thinner, but it's a tiny bit longer. Still fits the same cases without any problem. Toshibas Pocket PC device is *SMALLER* than a Palm IIIx.

The very latest Palm's are smaller than the IIIx, of course, but the difference isn't really so important because you want a case with the device anyway or you'll break the screen - Palm OR Pocket PC. With the case, they are roughly the same size.

But when it comes to features, Pocket PC devices are lightyears ahead of Palm. I saw AOL Instant Messenger at least half a year ago for Pocket PC! And these babies are so much more expandable! Just put in Socket Communication's Bluetooth CF card into a HP Jornada (it goes in all the way so that it doesn't make the device ANY bigger) and you can use your GPRS phone to be online 24/7. Or maybe a WLAN card.. Or an IBM 1GB Microdrive..

Pocket PC's Internet Explorer is pretty full featured and has support for all the typical features such as frames, JavaScript, 128 bit SSL etc.. It even supports Java applets and Flash thanks to Insignia Solutions Java VM and the Macromedia plugin. Adobe has a PDF viewer for Pocket PC and the OS itself comes bundled with Pocket Word and Pocket Excel. And it's been like that for years.

Palm is *WAY* behind in features, bundled software, power and memory. Pocket PC 2002 is also a much more friendly OS for stylus based use, IMHO.

It's no wonder Palm's market share is free falling! I wish they would get with the program and get out their ARM based devices soon, and get some better color screens and OS, or they will be dead within a year! It's really sad too, cause Palm used to be a really innovative and cool company, much like Netscape. But just like Netscape, they haven't come out with anything compelling for years and years and Microsoft and Symbian is flying past them.

Re:Why compare?

[Augusto]

Oh god, just buy a laptop with a DVD drive and get yourself a cople of batteries.

Or even better, get a portable DVD player !

Re:Why compare?

[jockm]

So I should spend more money, and carry more equipment just to do what I'm already set up to do?

I need to take my iPaq with me, so it is convienent to use it to play videos.

Re:palm vs pocket pc

[bribecka]

IMHO netscape was better then IE till about version 3, then it went downhill from there.

Right, I think Netscape 3 was a great browser, IE still sucked big time there. Then communicator was close to IE4. Of course, when they stopped releasing new netscapes for about 3 years, it kind of hurt them :)

Very good step forward

[ciurana]

This i701 device looks like a great evolutionary step forward for Palm. The service options seem a bit overpriced but the device's form factor is about right. The older Palm VII was too large to lug around; might as well had taken the laptop.

A few other postings have comments on how much better the iPaq or some other Windows-based system is. I have the opportunity of getting my hands on both types of devices for *free* (as in beer) through the work I do and the Palm product still seems quite superior. Colour, the ability to playback MP3 files, and other bells and whistles make the Windows Pocket PCs much bulkier. Palm is still undisputably the vendor with the smallest form factor (Clié included). If I wear a suit, I can literally slip a Palm V/Vx/m50x in my shirt pocket without it bulking up. If I travel I can take the whole set up, including a modem and the portable keyboard, in a very small bag (sometimes I don't even take my laptop). Pocket PC devices are still bulkier and look like toys. Palms have a certain "business appearance" that appeals to business people. Walk into a company's board room with a Palm and nobody will raise an eyebrow. Do the same with a Pocket PC and you're looked at like you're a Martian.

One of the best features in this new Palm i701 seems to be the antenna. Remember that PDAs are about unobtrusiveness; the i701 addresses this fairly well. A colour screen would've been nice, but that would have a severe impact on the battery usage. I prefer longer air time and/or device battery life over pretty pictures. Besides, what graphical application demands a *small screen*?

A killer app that leverages the i701's form factor and Internet connectivity would be great. Think, think, think...

The Palm platform's software stability is significantly better than Windows CE's/Pocket PC. Development of Palm applications is much simpler than development for WinCE. In terms of usability, use both devices for a week and see which one you'll carry everywhere.

Remember that Palm devices are very good at being PDAs. Pocket PCs are very good at trying to pack the power of a PC in a small footprint. Like everything else, use the best tool for the job at hand.

Cheers!

E

Re:Very good step forward

[kawaichan]

Can you get me one of those PocketPC? you know you want to :)

Seriously though, I have a Palm m505, E-125 PPC, a Sony CLIE, I still think Palm is a better machine with good form factors. PocketPC is nice but MIPS is so f****ing slow that you cannot use any of those organizier functions in real time.

Tero is great, but I think m505+bluetooth + bluetooth enabled phones would be better than anything else out there. Let's hope Bluetooth based phones will be really cheap this year.

Re:Very good step forward

[ciurana]

kawaichan wrote:

Can you get me one of those PocketPC? you know you want to :)

I have to return most of the hardware at some point to the vendors; however, establishing a partnership for software development with Compaq or Insignia or Sharp will probably result in free Palm stuff. Go after their apps development group and build something that will be sold under their brand and they'll facilitate the hardware. Occasionally you'll get to play with 'em prototypes too.

Free hardware usually arrives after you've developed and delivered a first version of whatever it is you're working on. By then they know you're serious. Oh, and pick a project that they really want. They'll throw the hardware at you because they know you'll be using it.

Cheers!

E

sick of their wireless crap

[Lumpy]

I want a palm with 802.11b on it. Dont give me no overpriced cellular based internet that doesnt work 1/2 the time or in 1/3 the country (and not at all where I live) Most of us would rather have it 802.11b so we can be connected in the office and home, the places where we would use it 90% of the time.

but alas, that is a useful idea and will never become a reality on any palm device.

Re:sick of their wireless crap

[cpfeifer]

Xircom makes an 802.11b module for the m5XX and M125 handhelds. They also have an 802.11b module for your Visor.

Re:sick of their wireless crap

[RobertAG]

But those modules are US$300.00 a piece. Contract that with the PCMCIA wireless card that sells for US$80 (from the same Xircom website). At work, we have an 802.11b network. At HOME I have the same thing connected to my cable modem (firewalled and encrypted, of course). Dual capability would make me consider the palm.

Until then, I'll stick with my IPAQ.

Re:sick of their wireless crap

[cpfeifer]

I agree with you here. I hate proprietary accessories, this is one big win with the ipaq: a huge array of cheap add-on modules (via PCMCIA).

<Yes, this next bit is offtopic, feel free to mod me down>

What would be even cooler than having 802.11b at home and at work would having it everywhere: the movie theatre (no need to stand in lines, just get in range and buy tickets from your handheld), the restaurant (check your place in line & get notified when you table is ready), the airport (check schedules, make sure your bags made it...), interstate tollbooths...

Of course this opens up all sorts of issues: security and privacy just to name a few, but I would still love it.

still 9600 baud?

[Matey-O]

I reactivated my palm 7 to play around with it...9600 baud IS like pulling teeth, without a bullet or whiskey. I note the conspicuous absence of any DETAILS of the wireless capabilities of this device...I suspect it too uses the same connectivity.

So, at the office, I've got CF 802.11b for the ipaq (LOVE IT) and I've got a nokia 8290 to infrared connect it in the field (but, alas, also at 9600 baud.)

And this thing is B&W? Nothing to see here, move on.

Size

[EnglishTim]

I have a Palm V.

Yes, only 2Mb of memory. I wish it had more. However, the thing I *love* about it is it's size. It really is *very* small. I think the only smaller comparable PDA you can get is one of the Sony palmOS-based jobs.

Although I think it would be neat to upgrade to a device with a better screen, memory and processing power, all the PocketPC models seem rather bulky compared to my old Palm V. And I'm not prepared to go backwards on the size department. It needs to fit comfortably in my back pocket, and that means < 1cm thick.

Palm's color choice

[Refrag]

It appears that Palm designed the new PDA to match Apple's line of hardware.

Time for a new vendor: Apple - I wish

[Malic]

PocketPC is too much. If I'd wanted a notebook computer, I'd get one.

Palm is stagnating. Even in their own "keep it simple" philosophy, they are not meeting their own standards.

Apple has become a very solutions-centric prodcut developer in the last 2 years and THAT is what it takes to make an excellent PDA!

Re:Why not GPRS/GSM

[cpfeifer]

Ditto. Patience grasshopper. But GSM/GPRS is just getting off the ground with the US carriers w/VoiceStream and AT&T.

Once we have a decent rollout of devices & folks start to use it, we just have to wait for a little bit of competition so that the pricing plans get reasonable for mere mortals.

What it would take...

[rogerl]

I would buy this if:

1. It was around $350.00
2. Had color
3. 16 MB RAM
4. Scraped the 9.99 wireless setup fee. What the heck, lets charge them an extra 10 bucks on top of the 449.00! What is up with that.
5. Unlimited service for 20 / month. First six months is inlcuded in the 350.00

Re: I am looking for 802.11- GET A HANDERA 330

[Locutus]

you want 802.11 in a reliable device than get the Handera 330 + 802.11 CF card.

nothing new here if you'd just look around.

LoB

Re:Miniature Keyboards...

[ciurana]

Greetings,

I've been using the full-size Palm keyboard for a year and it rocks. You can fold it to a footprint equivalent to the Palm V's (though about twice as thick) or open it to get a full notebook-size kbd. Very neat. I've written code, portions of business plans, email, etc. on this kbd. Kool!

I broke my little finger (left hand) about a year and a half ago and tried some of those mini-kbds (on my desktop workstations and with my Palm V) because I couldn't type. They were all very disappointing. That's why I bought other Palm kbd.

Cheers!

E

Palm vs. MS

[schvenk]

On the Palm vs. MS issue: My understanding is that these really are two different devices. Not that they aren't trying to attract the same customer base, but Palm is trying to be a true PDA (emphasis on "assistant") whereas MS is creating a small PC with all the bells and whistles (bloat, anyone?). For my money, I'll take the Palm approach.

While I'm a bit disappointed myself at the new release's lack of major innovation (I was really hoping for a built-in cell phone), Palm is moving forward while MS isn't. Palm OS is evolving toward information appliances: targeted devices whose UI reflects a context-appropriate set of tasks. This helps overcome one of the problems with monolithic PCs of any size: The overhead required to _start_ doing what you want to do. Most of the tools we interact with don't have this problem.

Build too many bells and whistles into a handheld device and it's just a laptop with limited screen space. Handhelds' interfaces need to reflect the fact that they get used on the go. What I've seen and heard of the MS devices (which is admittedly a fairly small sample size) suggests that they're not pursuing that goal the same way Palm is. And many of what I hear touted as MS-only features are available in some Palm OS configuration anyway.

Why you should buy an i705:

[cameronk]

I have been consistantly impressed with my Palm VIIx during the past year of use. The battery life is quite long, around three weeks, service plan inexpensive, averaging $15 per month, and coverage excellent.
What the i705 offers are evolutionary features that sand down imperfections in an otherwise excellent device. There is no need to use an obtrusive, yet fragile, antenna to connect to the network. The device vibrates instead of that annoying beep. The email is "always on" so it is not necessary to pull the device out to check mail every two seconds. The device has USB. I probably wil not replace my existing Palm, but only because I lack USB and the new email features are not really supported on the Mac. Otherwise, this device is everything I could ask for in a wireless handheld, aside from global megabit connectivity, of course.
The killer application is anywhere access to email. This service is most valuable in places where I could use a laptop, but for whatever reason it is inconvenient or expensive. In an airport, it is possible to find a payphone with a telephone jack, play with a phone card and eventually check messages, if you do not miss a flight. I would prefer to pick up a refreshing beverage and read my messages in the departure lounge without the additional stress. Likewise, although I am more than capable of configuring my laptop to use a hotel phone system, with local charges of 75 cents per call it is cost prohibitive to check my email every fifteen minutes.
Other features will be useful, especially instant messanger. Perhaps the best, yet least heralded, feature is airline flight information. The device has already paid for itself in terms of flights I have caught when the airport screens no longer display the gate. Using PQAs from most major airlines, you can figure out gate information even when it is not displayed on screen.

After all this hype...

[2Bits]

and all we got is this lousy same old Palm....

People, it's not the i705's fault, it's Palm.Net!

[InterruptDescriptorT]

This product is doomed to failure, much like the wonderful VIIx (which I purchased when Palm was unloading them to developers at just over US$100), and doesn't deserve to be.

The problem is that Palm.Net is asking $40/month for unlimited wireless access. The non-unlimited rate and data transfer allotment basically get you one /. page view, and that's it. I think Palm could completely dominate mobile handheld e-everything, except that they are asking way too much for the service. Halve the cost and I'll sign up tomorrow, and I'll bet that I'm not the only one who would do so. But $40/mo is preying on executives' big expense budgets, not the average consumer who would snap stuff up like this in an instant. All Palm needs to do is retarget their .Net, especially in light of the changing business economy, reduce the price for the service, and I think you'll see Palm finally succeed.

100 kilobytes -- twenty bucks? ludicrous.

[kobotronic]

The hope for Palm to survive as a viable platform seems to diminish day by day. There is no evidence of ongoing innovation from this company. What did they DO all this time? Who killed their R&D department? On what did they squander their once-decisive market lead? Did it take that much engineering effort to release the lifestyle celebrity branded palms, the slightly differently colored cases and the dinky proprietary memory cards?

I am on my 3rd Palm now - a worn and dented IIIc, and it looks like it will be the last. I just don't think I'll see any viable upgrade path from this corporation. Will I have to make the switch to the evil Empire's devices? Those Ipaq's sure look a lot more like what the futurists would have me believe I should be expecting from handheld devices. I mean, slick and silver, color, high resolution, audio and video enabled. Palm's devices still look like mid 1990s tech, complete with chunky lo-fi 160x160 pixel displays which are FINE for embedded use in cellphones and what have you, but please PLEASE I want some contemporary technology!

Palm keeps disappointing. Not a sliver of innovation is evident in this device. It would have been of modest interest if it had come out some three years ago. The service price structure seems completely out of whack with reality. I receive 100 k worth of spam email HEADERS alone in a few days. And why doesn't it have 802.11b instead anyway? That's all the wireless connectivity I need and want. And a higher resolution screen? 240x320 or even just 240x240x15bit is fine(So I can make some slightly more serious GPS field mapping apps that don't look like Vic 20 games), 16 megs default memory, and a flash card reader for mp3s, and a stereo sound system and a headphone jack? Gimme all that and call it PalmX and I'd put in five hunnert bucks easy.

Dual-color LED

[M-G]

Whee! Another device that the color-blind to be pissed at. Invariably, they always use red/green. If manufacturers wanted to make things useful, they'd set things up to use blue/red, blue/green, or something a little easier for people with this problem.

Re:Miniature Keyboards...

[tzanger]

I've been using the full-size Palm keyboard for a year and it rocks.

The biggest problem I've found with my folding keyboard and Vx is that it the keyboard seems "slow" -- I can easily out-type it. Is there a driver fix or OS upgrade which addresses this?

Visor + Visorphone + service = $200 + $50/month

[DanEsparza]

I recently bought a Handspring Visor Neo and wanted to compare Palm's late (and feature lacking) entry into this market with my experience.

I've got:

• $199 - Handspring Visor (with 8 MB RAM)
• $0 - VisorPhone (gives voice and wireless internet features) - integrates seamlessly
• $50/month - 3000 minutes with a wireless provider.

With Palm's device, I can't have voice capabilities, the memory is the same, and it's MUCH more expensive.

My $.02

Your math is wrong

[lowLark]

Clie PEG-S320 ($199 )
+ Nokia 3360 ($200)
+ $20/month ISP
+ ~$35/month Cellphone contract
+ ~$0.35/min data call fee(voicestream & cingular)
+ Cost of having to make extra calls to check for email becasue of no notification.
+ Cost of having to download full web pages since colutions like Blazer don't use a proxy to reduce data size the way that web clipping does.
+ Cost of having to wait 45 seconds (the avg time for PPP negotation over a GSM link) every time you want to do data
+ Cost of looking stupid trying to hold the IR port of your phone in line with the IR port of your PDA.

Total cost? Who knows. But I know that I don't usually use telnet on my pda, and most pda users dont even know what telnet is. Most people want good email access, and the ability to check a few key websites (remeber that the top 10 websites now account for something like 80% of peoples online time). The i705 gives me both thoose things in a single easy package.

Re:Maybe, pics of this new palm were out in August

[EMIce]

Which hardware would they be modeling after? There were pics of this thing published last summer on cnet, so I wouldn't say the ipod.

Check it out here.

I wouldn't be surprised though, Palm and Apple are friendly - both stand by the Motorola 68k (sometimes for seemingly cultural reasons) and both follow a bare essentials only, highly usable philosophy of application development.

other things palm doesn't have compaired to WinCE

[Gumber]

excess bulk or weight.

I can imagine carrying one of these new wireless palms with me almost everywhere.

an iPaq, especially with wireless features is heavy and bulky. I know for a fact I would frequntly choose to leave it behind.

Remember this is PORTABLE computer

[Gumber]

I agree that this newest release from Palm leaves something to be desired, but still I find most of the compairisons to WinCE devices to be complete bunk.

WinCE devices are big fat heavy monsters, especially an iPaq with a wireless adapter. So what if it has more memory, a larger screen, or a real TCP/IP connection. None of that really matters to me if it is sitting on my dresser, or on my desk because it is too bulky to carry.

This Palm thing is only a little bigger/heavier than a PalmV. I carry my PalmV pretty much everywhere.

Sure, I would love it if the CPU was faster, if there was more memory, if the screen were higher resolution, but I think the portability is still compelling.

What a fucking ripoff.

[sulli]

Did you see the SF Chronicle review? $2500 for a 25-user license for a plugin that forwards messages from Exchange or Domino. Hello?! Isn't that just a basic mail rule - send a copy to this email address? Who would pay that?!

Oh, the "enterprise" buyers those fancy consultants always talk about whenever they're discussing something that's wildly overpriced.

As for me, I'll stick with my Palm V, and my cellphone for paging. Why pay more?

Re:Maybe, pics of this new palm were out in August

[Refrag]

They would have modeled it after the iBook. Apple may have told them that the iBook was the future of Apple design.