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Are SPAM Blacklists Unreasonable?

rlsnyder asks: "I'm the inadvertant co-administrator of e-mail a for company that relies pretty heavily on it for daily business (e.g. sending confirmations of financial transactions). At one point in the not-too-distant past, our server was an open relay. I admit I'm a sinner for letting it happen, and I'm ready to do my pennance. Given the relatively low volume of mail our server moved that did not originate from inside, I doubt I was a major contributor to the world of SPAM. In any event, we've been blacklisted on a number of sites. Some lists have reasonable policies, and we've since been removed. Other places are a little more arbitrary as to removal policies, and although I can prove we're not a relay, we're still listed." While I approve of the basic concept of SPAM Blacklists, there are dozens of SPAM blacklists out there who are real keen on adding open relays to the list, but not so keen on taking rehabilitated hosts out. I would posit that SPAM blacklists that are not properly maintained are a part of the problem, not the solution. What are your thoughts on the subject?

rlsynder continues: "Am I way off base here, or is this self-appointed mail police thing going in the wrong direction? Given that I can't reliably deliver e-mail to a number of places due to being blocked, I've got a big exposure. Is this making spam less of a problem, or are we trading one problem (SPAM) for another (the reliablility of proper maintenance of SPAM Blacklists)?

I could draw a bunch of analogies here, but isn't the bottom line that no one owns the internet e-mail system? I realize no one makes ISP's subscribe to the blacklists, but basically, I'm trying to move data from one point to another, and some machines in the middle are discriminating against my data because a corrected, perfectly legal system configuration error. How is this helping? Has SPAM really decreased universally thanks to these lists?"

49 of 619 comments (clear)

  1. Real Pain by Tadrith · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The company I work for had the same problem. As a result, we ended up having trouble getting e-mail to some of our customers. Thankfully, it was easy to get ourselves removed, but I think if people are going to use blacklists, they should also take the responsibility of keeping them maintained, both in additions and removals.

  2. Subscribing to blacklists did not help me. by Dick+Click · · Score: 5, Interesting

    When I used to manage a mail server, I was asked to filer based on orbs. Not did this in no significant way limit the amount of spam entering the system, it became a huge administrative headache. Eventually, we stopped using the lists. I am sure there are likely better lists, but I simply prefer creating my own list, based on investigation into what's coming in.

    1. Re:Subscribing to blacklists did not help me. by diamondc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      We use ordb and orbz here at work. Over a day or so it rejected about 500 emails.

      Then we blocked all mail from mail servers who's IP numbers don't resolve. Now we have cut down on spam dramatically.. our root@ email account has gone from 200 spam emails a day to about 10

      --
      "I keep looking in the want-ads under 'revolutionary' but there don't seem to be any listings.. "
  3. ObPeeve: SPAM(tm) vs uce spam by Speare · · Score: 3, Informative

    Hormel Foods has stated they don't mind the use of the word 'spam' to refer to U.C.E., or junk mail, as long as people don't use the term spelled in all-capitals. Hormel owns the trademark on the meat product, SPAM. Given their more-reasonable-than-average position on this, let's respect their request?

    --
    [ .sig file not found ]
  4. Its more of a pain in the neck by tkrotchko · · Score: 4, Informative

    I like the idea of something like MAPS-RBL, but I think many of them are bad hacks put together by guys who take the spam thing as a holy crusade. I don't really have a problem with that, its a free country, you do what you want.

    However I fault ISPs for using them without understanding their policies. Many ISPs use these small-time black-holes because they don't want to use MAPRBL (I assume its a money thing at this point). And if you get listed, how do you know that you're listed? You don't until somebody calls somebody and says "I can't get mail through to you". There needs to be a better way.

    And some sites, its not worth getting delisted. "www.joes.antispam.site.com" isn't worth the effort one way or the other.

    --
    You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
    1. Re:Its more of a pain in the neck by crucini · · Score: 4, Informative
      Many ISPs use these small-time black-holes because they
      don't want to use MAPRBL (I assume its a money thing at this
      point).

      I don't think it's only a money thing. MAPS is almost useless - they don't list spammers until they've tried to "educate" them. I've noticed that servers sending me spam are never on MAPS. But the fact that they're charging doesn't help.
      And if you get listed, how do you know that you're listed? You don't until somebody calls somebody and says "I can't get mail through to you". There needs to be a better way.

      You generally know that you're listed because some of your outbound mail bounces with a message explaining that you are listed and giving a URL for further info. Are you saying that you've had outbound mail bounced due to a spam list and there was no indication of the reason? I realize this is theoretically possible, but I don't understand why someone would set up a mail server that way.
  5. I've been e-mailing the admins of those lists,... by 5.25"+Floppy · · Score: 4, Funny

    ... but dammit, they just don't seem to be getting my e-mail! I'm going to start having all my friends send them a few mails as well... *sigh*

  6. Naughty in his sight by ackthpt · · Score: 3, Funny
    At one point in the not-too-distant past, our server was an open relay. I admit I'm a sinner for letting it happen, and I'm ready to do my pennance.

    ...and the number of counting shall be three...

    --

    A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
  7. Mail servers are private property by Tyrall · · Score: 5, Insightful
    From the article: I could draw a bunch of analogies here, but isn't the bottom line that no one owns the internet e-mail system?
    This is a fallacy that continues to be propagated. I own my own mail server. The company I work for owns its mail servers. We can both decide who we want to allow to send mail to our users.

    At work, we use two open relay lists; ORDB and ORBZ. Nobody forces us to use them; it's our server cluster, and our choice.
    The reason we use those two systems, however, is due to the reasons pointed out in the article. Some blacklists are far too easy to get onto, or hosts are arbitrarily added by humans. The only way to get onto either of those lists is to be an open relay. The only way off is to be automatically retested and found to not be an open relay.

  8. No decrease noticed on my part by fishybell · · Score: 3, Insightful
    I've had my e-mail address at hotmail for many years, and until the last year or so haven't taken any precautionary measures to reduce my spam intake. As a result of this, that address receives hundreds of spam messages daily (thank god for filters).
    I've only noticed that spam is getting harder to filter because of the blacklists. No longer are they all coming from a dozen or so servers, but instead hundreds.

    --
    ><));>
  9. Please list your domain. by Henry+V+.009 · · Score: 3, Funny
    Unfortunately you are on my personal spam blacklist. I will consider removing you in return for a fee that will be calculated based on the amount of my time you wasted by allowing yourself to be used as a tool of the spam distributors. And I want you to grovel too.

    P. S. And how come I never got those pics of Teen Sara27 XXX 18th birthday?

  10. ORDB.org by paranoidia · · Score: 4, Informative

    ordb.org is a great site for this. They are very professional with both addition of servers, and subtraction of them. My mail server was an open relay for a time till I got an email from them saying that I was blacklisted. I quickly fixed the server, and submitted that my site be checked again, the next day I was taken off their lists, very easy. They run about 20 tests connecting to your server and sending e-mails for the most common way of sending spam. Also, as they say in their faq that they reload their lists every hour to get servers off it quickly. Well done!

  11. Blacklist sites by schon · · Score: 5, Interesting

    OK, you've fixed your mail relay(s)..

    This is a good thing - and what every blacklist's ultimate goal is.

    Speaking as a mail server admin, I'd be interested to know which lists are not removing you - so that I can make sure I'm not using them.

    Seriously - letting people know about this is the best way to get what you want. If your site is not a relay, any blacklist maintainer is doing their users a disservice by listing you.

    As a mail admin, I'd want to know.

    Alternatively, you could do the American thing and threaten a lawsuit - most blacklist operators are immune from libel charges because they're just listing people who operate open relays (truth is defense against libel) - if you're not an open relay, then you've got a good case for libel: they're deliberately publishing false information to hurt your business.

  12. That's a self-solving problem (mostly) by devphil · · Score: 5, Insightful


    Yep, that's the root of the problem: there are a number of for-free blacklists out there which are professionally managed. Those are the ones that should be used.

    And as long as we publicly point out the blacklists that are being poorly run, people will stop using them, and switch to the good ones (like RBL, RSS, DUL, ORDB). The solution is not to ban or otherwise stop using blacklists, the solution is simply to (vocally) promote the ones which stay on top of the problem.

    --
    You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
  13. Shout out for SpamAssassin by dietz · · Score: 5, Informative

    I'd just like to give some props for SpamAssassin.

    If you haven't heard of it, it's an elegant system that assigns a weight to each email message based on hundreds of different tests, and if the email scores over 5 (configurable), it is marked as spam.

    One of the nice things about it that is it uses most of the email blacklists, but they're only worth ~2 points, so being in a blacklist alone isn't enough to kill a message. That's good for those blacklists that throw far too many people in that don't belong (osirusoft). It also uses razor, but that is only worth three points, so if someone is piping bugtraq to razor-report (that happened for a while) you won't lose all that email.

    There's a really interesting set of tests (it's fun to read them) each with an obscure set of points including:
    HTML with a non-white bgcolor (1.2)
    Claims conformance to obscure spam law (1.0)
    HTML mail with no text portion (3.33)
    Various spam phrases (various points depending on how many "hits" there are)
    Subject ends in an exclamation point (0.5)

    The points have apparently been calculated using some program to give the best accuracy.

    Anyway, SpamAssassin is the best of the spam removal programs I've seen. Give it a shot!

  14. Re:No. Deal with it. by spencerogden · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What if it used to be a crack house, but the neighborhood cleaned up and was safe?

  15. Protecting my server, thank you very much by alansz · · Score: 5, Informative
    DNS-based blacklists are not your problem. There are no more than a dozen that are really widely used (some orbs spinoffs like http://www.ordb.org and http://www.orbz.org, the MAPS ones if you're willing to pay (or can get a hobby contract) at http://www.mail-abuse.org, and the collection at http://relays.osirusoft.com that includes open relays, spamhaus, and SPEWS. All of these systems have clearly-published listing policies and are actively maintained and if you're blocked by one of them, you'll likely get out sooner or later once you're clean. (In some cases, you can have them automatically retest you). Plenty of mail admins find that using the information on these sites to protect their mail servers from spam is highly effective.

    Your problem is twofold. First, while you've cleaned up your open relay, plenty of spammers and spam-friendly hosts make the same claim and lie (Rule #1: Spammers lie). So you may have to be patient.

    More importantly, your server ip may now be sitting in hundreds of private blacklists of mail servers whose admins don't like to use the centralized lists, and just reject/blackhole spammers on their own. It is the presence of well-trusted centralized blacklist services that gives you even the hope of ever having decent communication, because without them, you'd get into a thousand tiny blacklists and never get out.

    (P.S. Note that if you're checking your status using the rblcheck tool at http://relays.osirusoft.com, it will tell you about a lot of blacklists that are not intended to be publicly used and not part of the usual osirusoft dnsbl, as well...)

  16. Re:No. Deal with it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Crack house? A bit harsh considering the guy simply had an open relay which he then fixed.

    You really think this is a valid analogy? Go spend a night in one, then go back to our cushy world of sysadmin stuff.

    Didn't think so.

    I'm betting he was asked to install a server - prolly a turnkey type - did so, and watched it chug along for a good long time before someone found out it was open and started using it.

    More like finding a crackhead in your garage, eh?

    Gee, ya think maybe he missed the giant neon sticker that came with the mailserver manual that said "your box is an open relay by default. fix that. tag - you're it!" Oh, right - that's because there is no such sticker.

    If they maintain the lists, they should *maintain* them, not just treat them like a brick wall and simply pile up the addresses and leave it at that. My experience with orbz is that they don't pay attention to the people in the middle - I've been there.

    Just takes a little bit of hard work, and this guy's apparently willing to do his part.

    Lighten up and tackle the appropriate problem.

    --Jake

  17. Black lists probably work by jumpingfred · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The real question is did you only close down the open relay because of the black list? If that is the case then the black list did the job.

  18. RBL can be useful... by dtdns · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I agree that some BL's are not properly managed. The old ORBS system was a perfect example of this. They would add you if you were an open relay, but getting OUT of the database was pretty much impossible if the guy that ran it didn't like you or your attitude toward his "service".

    One of my mail servers ended up on ORBZ as well as ORDB because I had made a mistake in the configuration, and I corrected it and was promptly removed after submitting a re-test request.

    I now employ the use of RBL on my own servers, but I will only use those services which will remove "fixed" servers using an automated testing system that works properly. ORDB, ORBZ and Osirisoft's RBL's tend to be the best AFAIK. I have found that by using these systems, the level of SPAM that my users and I receive has dropped to a point where it's not entirely annoying or time-consuming to deal with it anymore.

    One RBL that I stay away from using is the one operated by SpamCop (bl.spamcop.com). It's a great idea, but it ends up blocking out too much "real" e-mail as well, esp from the larger ISP's like Comcast, etc.

  19. Going to get far worse before it gets better. by Thagg · · Score: 5, Insightful

    rlsnyder asks Has SPAM really decreased universally thanks to these lists? Well, it is hard to say. Spam has increased monotonically since its inception, and it continues to grow. It is possible that blacklists have helped lower the rate of growth.

    What blacklists really do is get the attention of sysadmins, and get them to take the problem seriously. I, like rlsnyder, was victimized in the same way -- our mail server was an open relay, we forwarded some spam, and got blacklisted. It took me a week or so to get it straightened out, and in the process I learned quite a bit about the UCE problem. rlsnyder similarly has been enriched by the experience, whether he agrees to that at this point or not.

    One always has the option of sending mail from one of the many free mail systems. If your mail is blocked while your case is being reviewed, then send it from hotmail or someplace like that. That's what we did. In took about a week for the last of the spam reporting services to delist our site, and while it was inconvenient, it wasn't devastating. It won't be for rlsnyder, either, I trust.

    The big problem is that there is nothing to stop the spammers. People who relay mail through unsuspecting companies are already criminals, they will not be dissuaded by laws. The only thing that the anti-spam community can do is to try to put a finger in all 2^32 holes in the dike, and the only way to do that is to educate people. The blacklists are that education program

    thad

    --
    I love Mondays. On a Monday, anything is possible.
  20. Re: Exclamation marks by stu72 · · Score: 3, Informative

    I ran a simple procmail filter for a while, and I was astounded how much spam I could nuke by filtering based on subject line punctation. Some of my triggers:

    more than 2 exclamation marks
    more than 2 dollar signs
    All caps

    etc etc.

    Worked pretty well, for its simplicity.

  21. Re:No. Deal with it. by harlows_monkeys · · Score: 3, Informative

    Try actually reading the question. The complaint is not about blacklists in general, but rather about poorly administered blacklists.

  22. Re:Automate the maintenance by Tyrall · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Nope, the usual way to do it is:
    1. Filter the open relay checker's IP.
    2. Click 'check me now'.
    3. Spam as usual.

    This is a retarded, but effective way of avoiding the automatic blacklist generators.
    You'll still get on a lot of the automatic+human checkers like MAPS' open relay list.

  23. Re:No. Deal with it. by Tackhead · · Score: 4, Insightful
    > What if it used to be a crack house, but the neighborhood cleaned up and was safe?

    A good point. That's why I'd buy SPEWS a beer.

    The system appears to be automated -- if the blocked host stops sending spam for a long enough period of time, SPEWS appears to unblock it.

    If, on the other hand, the spam continues to issue from the blocked host, SPEWS appears not to unblock it.

    From what I've read in news.admin.net-abuse.email, the length of time for which a provider remains in SPEWS appears to be proportional to the length of time the provider ignored abuse complaints.

    Contrast this with a privately-run blocklist (e.g. my "fsck it, block the /24".) I can't be bothered to check if the /24 has cleaned up. There are IP address ranges all the way back to the days of Cyberpromo that I haven't been bothered to unblock.

    The advantage of SPEWS and its ilk is that 1000 systems can be unblocked. The problem with the blocklist on my own system is that I can rarely be bothered to unblock it.

    (In crackhouse terms, SPEWS reads police blotters, and if it stops seeing crime in a certain area, allows pizza delivery. I'm the crusty old Italian guy who says "No, you can't deliver to 48th street, it's a war zone, at least, it was the last time I tried to deliver a pie there sometime in 1996!")

  24. some of thee guys are nuts by ellem · · Score: 4, Funny

    A little while ago a site I worked at was blacklisted.

    We fixed the problem that day and when we contacted the SPAM COP he wrote back to say, basically:

    All Lotus Notes Mail Servers are insecure so we're leaving you on the list. Get another mail server.

    I made achange in the Notes.INI file that made it look like I was using SendMail. And he fixed us.

    Ridiculous policy. Notes is pretty secure anyway! I wonder what this guy read...

    --
    This .sig is fake but accurate.
  25. some companies deserve it by not_anne · · Score: 4, Interesting

    My employer's corporate office email system is an open relay, so that outlying offices (like ours) can send email, and so the company can track what we're doing.

    Recently, spammers have discovered our open system and have been relaying at a furious rate (read: thousands of emails a day.) This caused *our* email to get reflected back to us most of the time, and it also got my employer's domain on several spammer blacklists. This is such a problem, that the corporate office recently switched ISPs over it.

    Now, with the new ISP, the IT guys have "cracked down on security" by banning relaying...for 1/2 the day. In the mornings we can send all the email we want (and so can the spammers), but after we all get back from lunch, no more email can be sent out. My employer is baffled why we can't get off of the blacklists, even after the move to the new ISP. I just laugh and goof off for the rest of the afternoon.

    I'm all for an appeals process of some sort in order to get off of spam blacklists, but some companies do deserve to stay there, as long as their habits and policies don't radically change.

    not_anne

    --
    My comments here are my own; I do not speak for my employer.
    1. Re:some companies deserve it by ColaMan · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Ok.......

      You *do* realise that mail servers can be configured to only accept relays from certain domains? eg from "outlying-branch-isp.com"?
      And your new ISP is "cracking down" by letting it go half the day only? Hmmm .. I take it you get charged by the MB by your new ISP?

      I know, it's fun to goof off, but you're doing the rest of the internet a disservice.For chrissakes, get somebody to post your system specs here on slashdot and get somebody will post the steps required to walk you through setting it up .... even *I'll* have a go, if it stops the spam just a little bit.

      If someone at your outlying branch isp subnet(s) discovers your mail relay after that, well it should be a simple matter for you to get them booted.

      Oh, don't post any identifying details about your company, unless you want them to experience THE AWESOME POWER OF THE SLASHDOT EFFECT *evil grin*

      Heh , I like the sound of that ...
      "NOBODY EXPECTS THE SLASHDOT EFFECT!"
      Kind of python-esque.

      --

      You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
      There is a lot of hype here.
  26. simple solution.. by Lumpy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    a self maintaining blacklist. if you get blacklisted and then fix it, you go to a webpage that you submit that you're fixed. then the system simply uses a seperate computer that is NOT on the webpages domain and tries to relay email. if the relay happened then the blacklisted site is still blacklisted, otherwise it is automatically removed.

    Maybe 100 lines in perl to accomplish this. no real effort required.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    1. Re:simple solution.. by Phork · · Score: 3, Insightful

      you seem to be not understanidng something. Open relays are not uasualy set up by spammers, they are uasualy setup unknowingly by companies for there corprate email and things like that. Then a spammer finds out that the server is an open relay, and starts to bounce there spam off it. So it is not at all an issue of spammers finding a way to avoid having there mail servers detected, a smart spammer would not run an open relay on there own server, because open relays get blocked, and can cost you money if someone starts to send a large amout of traffic through the server.
      The only time you would have someone trying to avoid their server being detected as an open relay is when they use the server for legitimate(non-spam) purposes, but are to lazy to make the server not an open relay.

      --
      -- free as in swatantryam - not soujanyam.
    2. Re:simple solution.. by Phork · · Score: 3, Insightful

      i belive this is how several of the blacklists currently work, at least for the removal. I dont know if they automatically go out and hunt for open relays.

      --
      -- free as in swatantryam - not soujanyam.
  27. Re:It's anti-democratic ! There are other (better) by hpa · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The problem 3 is quite grave : What can you do if your mail server doesn't support anti-relay ?
    Or if you must buy another licence, or it it's opensource, but needs a new version of the OS, or things like that. OK, now all email servers support anti-relay. But this was not the case at this time.


    If so, they're right in blocking you. You're saying "oh, we're not willing to go through the trouble of cleaning up our server, to hell with anyone who gets spammed." It's exactly those sites that they're supposed to be blocked


    2. They should leave you 10-15 days to fix the problem before blocking you


    That's insane. Once you end up on a spamrelay list, you'll be the conduit for tons of spam within hours of even minutes. 10-15 days is an eternity in that respect.

  28. If you had an open relay by www.sorehands.com · · Score: 3, Interesting
    If you had an open relay that was used by spammers, go after a few of them in court. Go after the people who sell the SPAM software that uses the open relays.


    Bankrupt a few spammers, show others it is not cheap to spam. Maybe get some charged criminally.


    All spammers should be tortured, then executed.

  29. Blacklists not the answer... by curunir · · Score: 3, Interesting

    IMHO, Blacklists are just a small band-aid on the gaping wound that is SMTP. SPAM has proliferated to the point where it needs to be dealt with in a more sane manner than just punishing the offenders.

    I'm usually all for privacy, but I think we need to be using an email transport protocol that involves some form of authentication. I'm not sure if some such protocol exists already, but it doesn't seem like it would be too hard to create.

    Am I way off base here, or wouldn't this cut way down on SPAM?

    --
    "Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos!"
  30. Re:No. Deal with it. by JordoCrouse · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Don't like living in a crack house? Move.

    What about the people living next door to the crack house? Should they not be able to get a pizza as well? How about the good houses that get anonymously accused of being crack houses?

    The fact of the matter is, for every legimiate spammer on the list (even the well administrated ones), there is another placed there unfairly.

    In the three weeks preceding the much awaited dumping of ORBS, we started dropping mail from 4 different valid mailing lists and 1 valid business (it was a brick and mortar business - no web presence, just an e-mail server). One of the lists was LKML (and I have no idea why it was on the list), and the other three had the misfortune of being on the same web hosting service as a spammer.

    The brick and mortar was on the list because of an open relay (which was a good reason to be listed), however once it was closed, they were not allowed to be removed, though their level of e-mail is about 20 - 30 message a day, and they have never send a spam in their existance.

    The problem is that we are all living in close proximity here - legit businesses are only a few digits away from spammers (just like the real world). And the knee jerk reaction that most sysadmins take in dealing with the situation is similar in nature to burning half your mail daily because the postmark is similar to a known junk mailer. And burning is a reasonable analogy, because blocked emails don't get archived or analyzed, they get tossed, lock stock and barrel.

    Its so easy for a sysadmin to install a blacklist and never worry about it again (unless of course, *he* starts losing messages).

    The price for having a spam free existance is to constantly monitor and evaluate the system, not to light a match and walk away.

    --
    Do you have Linux and a DotPal? Click here now!
  31. Re:No. Deal with it. by Tackhead · · Score: 3, Insightful
    > First of all, your crack-house metaphor is absurd. Secondly, your "if you dont like it, move" mentality is so amazingly worthless, I'm surprised i'm even taking the time to point it out.
    >
    > If you don't like it, try to make it better.

    Moderators - give that guy back a point.

    I really should have written "If you don't like it, ask your landlord to evict the dealers. Then think about moving."

    Or "If you don't like being listed in SPEWS, and you're not a spammer, ask your ISP to boot the spammers. You, as a customer of the listed ISP, have a hell of a lot more pull with that ISP than the spam recipients do."

  32. It's democracy and freedom in action. by fmaxwell · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't accept ORBS having decided what's permitted and what's not !

    ORBS does not decide what is "permitted" nor do any of these other databases. They have a set of criteria for deciding whether and when your mail server ends up in their database. If their criteria matches mine, then I can choose to use them as part of my mail filtering.

    1. These list should inform you have been added
    2. They should leave you 10-15 days to fix the problem before blocking you
    3. They should help you. I was *very* shocked by ORBS attitude "we block you, and we don't care if you cannot correct it"


    I'm sick of the attitude that ORBS owes you something when your mail server is an open relay. If your system is an open relay, your fuck-up will cost them time and effort as they add your system to the database. Now you think that they owe it to you provide you an absurd amount of warning (10-15 days), notification that you were added, and then you want them to provide free consulting services (see item 3). If you don't know how to run a mail server, then stop trying to.

    It's like being ticketed for driving your car down the wrong side of the road at 90 miles per hour and then being pissed off that the cop did not provide you with free driving lessons and give you 10-15 days to stop driving like that.

    If your system is an open relay, unplug the Ethernet cable immediately and leave it unplugged until the system is fixed. If you don't know how to fix it, then pay professionals to provide your SMTP & POP services. A spammer could spew tens of thousands of messages per hour through an open relay and you owe it to everyone else on the net do whatever it takes, including pulling the plug, to make sure that your system is not an open relay.

    I think that ORBS should charge a processing fee for "expedited removal" from their database and, otherwise, just remove systems once a week.

    1. Re:It's democracy and freedom in action. by fmaxwell · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is BS, by the same logic used above, you owe me for adding your email-adress to my hypothetical spamlist... Would you pay me to remove?

      That is such an illogical and poor analogy that I hardly know where to start...

      Unlike spammers, open relay database services do not send the people in their database anything. They don't harass them. They don't use up their bandwidth and storage. They don't have a business relationship with those listed in the database. They are simply reporting the information: "IP X.X.X.X was an open relay last time we tested." If the New York Times runs a story stating that you were arrested and jailed, do you think that they are legally and morally obligated to immediately report when you are released from jail?

      These database projects to not owe you anything unless you are paying them for a service. If they do remove your system after you fix it, you owe them a letter of apology (for causing the problem) and thanks (for taking the time to remove you), not a complaint that they didn't do it fast enough to suit you.

      I think that ORDB should make you pay them for the time that they spend removing your database entry.

      (note that the use of the word "you" was in the hypothetical sense in the above examples)

    2. Re:It's democracy and freedom in action. by fmaxwell · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Not removing now closed relays from the list is like not releasing prisoners from jail. Something which might or might not be a good idea...

      That's assuming that you consider the list to be a punishment. I believe that they are information sources -- IP X was, and may still be, an open relay.

      Also, I think the usefulness of DBs like ORBD lies in them staying current, as I think it might cost more losing one important mail than wading through tons of spam.

      I agree. But keeping the open-relay databases current is not a responsibility the database providers have to those listed in the databases. It may affect the popularity and usefulness of their service, but that's another matter altogether.

      If some person/group decides to create such a database, they have only the following two responsibilities:

      1. Do not defame/slander by listing a system incorrectly. That said, they make up the rules and if they say their databases are "IP addresses that were open relays within the last six months", they have up to six months after a relay is closed to remove the record from the database.

      2. Provide services paid for. If they accept payments to remove entries within, say, 24 hours (rather than the normal cycle), they have to remove those entries within 24 hours. Otherwise, they can remove them in conformance with the criteria that they set (see item 1).

      Again, you are viewing this as punishment and I'm viewing it as information. Since ORDB does not block e-mail, harass ISPs listed in the database, etc., they aren't punishing. They are just providing information Now if bobco.com rejects your e-mail because your IP is listed in the ORDB, then maybe bobco.com is punishing you, but ORDB is not.

  33. It's real simple by tuxlove · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If someone runs an open relay, they deserve to be blacklisted. Those sites who enjoy receiving spam can choose not to use blacklist information. Those who do not like spam can use blacklists.

    However, those who repent and fix their open relays should be immediately removed from any open relay blacklist they might be listed with. It's totally irresponsible to run a blacklist without provisions for keeping them up to date in near-realtime.

    An example of a great service was ORBS (the Open Relay Blackhole Service), may it rest in peace. It was largely automated, and would add and remove sites simply based on observations made by their relay-checking robot. There were some manual entries (for sites who refused to be probed), and that was cause for a bit of controversy. But by and large it was quite excellent. I can see absolutely no reason whatsoever for anyone to complain about the creation and use of such blacklists, unless they are a spammer. I have never heard a valid reason why an open relay should be considered okay (I do *not* agree with John Gilmore, just about the only slightly credible dissenter I've heard on this topic. He's just too lazy to use one of many available alternatives to what he's trying to accomplish. See this to see what I'm talking about.)

    Too bad most of the great blacklist services seem to be going away or becoming (highly overpriced) commercial endeavors.

  34. Re:No. Deal with it. by McSpew · · Score: 3, Informative

    So, I guess you've never wound up the victim of a poorly-administered blacklist, have you?

    My experience with open relays is virtually identical to that of the person who inspired this thread. My server was used as an open relay for part of a weekend.

    Near as I can tell, the first spam fired its way out of my server on Friday night around midnight. I closed off the relay on Sunday morning around 10:00 am. In that time, literally thousands of spams were sent, so I fully expected to be blacklisted and even warned my bosses and co-workers.

    What I didn't expect, however, was to still be trying to get myself off those blacklists SIX MONTHS LATER.

    I think blacklists can be a valuable tool for fighting spam, but only if they're sensible. Blacklists that permanently block without ever rechecking blocked IPs are irresponsible. They're adding to the difficulty of using the Internet, not improving it. They're also reducing their value to their subscribers because they're blocking IPs they shouldn't.

    In short, I agree with the post that called for an RFC. If there were some sort of standard for relay blacklists, it would be a damn sight easier getting off the lists once you've resolved the problem.

  35. Re:As a newbie, I still think you deserve it by tweek · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Good call. I haven't read the rest of the posts just yet but I found someone who agrees with me.

    At this point in my career, I am tired of dealing with half-assed admins who can't tie a shoe.

    You were hired based on a particular compentance level. You said you knew how to administer a mailserver. If you say you can administer a mailserver, you should know about open relays. If this was your first job administering a mailserver, you shouldn't have gotten the fucking job.

    As an admin, YOU and you alone are responsible for what comes out of your network.

    Back when codered was flooding the internet (and still is,along with nimda, based on my fucking log files), I had to call this company that was sending out codered scans from no less than 5 different IP addresses. At ONE company! I searched through internic records (I'll be damned if I was going to load the company's website) and finally got in touch with someone who claimed to be the network admin. I explained the situation to him and he proceeded to tell me that he wasn't aware that these servers were even running! How in the fuck can you not know what goes on with your network?

    You see, I'm paranoid. I want to know everything that goes on with my network at any given time. I do my damndest to make sure everything is secure as possible (short of pulling the damn cat 5 out of the switch). I've got the switches locked to MAC address so no one can just plug in a machine. I've got a external mail relay that only forwards mail to our firewall that is then passed to our Exchange server ( the one halfway decent product MS makes). Not only is the external mail scanner running some stuff to check for basic attachment viruses, but our exchange server is running Norton for Exchange. The client machines have NAV as well which uses a central server to update definition files daily. The outlook clients are running the Attachment and Zone patch from Microsoft. And to top it off, you can't relay trough our server without authentication which most email clients support nowadays.

    Some people call that paranoid but while our clients got slammed by the latest outlook bugs, we happily zoomed along without a single infection (should have seen the NAV logs on the email server though ;> ).

    The point of all this is this. You were hired to do a job. If you aren't compentant to do the job then get the hell out of the way and go work under someone who can.

    --
    "Fighting the underpants gnomes since 1998!" "Bruce Schneier knows the state of schroedinger's cat"
  36. Re:Fake open relays needed by SomeoneYouDontKnow · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What you're proposing has already been thought of. It's called a Teergrube. What it does is hold the spammer's SMTP connection open for as long as possible, appearing to slowly accept mail, but in reality doing nothing but wasting the spammer's time. You can do a Usenet search on that term to get more information. Here's an FAQ that may help you out. The post I pulled the link from is several years old, so you may want to look for something more up to date.

    --
    That light you see at the end of the tunnel might be from an oncoming train.
  37. Re:It's anti-democratic ! There are other (better) by CaptainSuperBoy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    1. These list should inform you have been added

    If you were added to a list without any knowledge that you had a spam problem, you are not qualified to run a mail server. If you were in any danger of being blacklisted, your postmaster@ account must have received hundreds of spam complaints. If you just ignored them, what did you expect to happen?

    2. They should leave you 10-15 days to fix the problem before blocking you

    Why, so spammers can abuse your servers for 10-15 more days? It was eating up YOUR bandwidth too, you know..

    3. They should help you. I was *very* shocked by ORBS attitude "we block you, and we don't care if you cannot correct it"

    ORBS WAS the exception, not the rule. ORBS is gone now btw, but they weren't known for their user-friendliness or their accessibility. Nevertheless, it's YOUR responsibility to fix your server, not theirs.

    Example : Accept any IP address for relay except ORBS, you won't be blocked but you're an open relay ;-)

    You didn't come up with this idea you know.. it's been done before. What did we call the people who did that? Oh right, spammers.

  38. What helped us and our users the most by shadie · · Score: 5, Insightful

    We (dds, a dutch isp) had a spam problem, and being a free email provider for such a long time did contribute to that. When we went out to solve this problem we did it in three steps:

    - Implement RBL+ on our mailservers (got the load down a bit though)

    - Created a global "spam filter" (weight system a la junkfilter) wich was opt-in for our users..

    - We installed procmail, gave each user it's own .procmailrc and made a web interface to create procmail recipes in an "outlook" style.

    This recipe maker could then be accessed by each user on their own user pages, or they could just make receipts through their shell access

    Our end users didn't really notice much about our use of RBL. And most of them don't know what rbl is annyway.

    But giving them the possibility of filtering email on the serverside _themseve_ did make a difference! It gave them a feeling we are fighting spam, and that THEY are also in control !

    And last but not least... Giving your users info on how to _avoid_ spam is important!. We did this by writing clear faqs on avoiding spam, and pointing each new user to these faqs

    (b.t.w... this was my first post on /. , lurking time is over i guess :-)

    --
    -- Hi! I'm a signature virus. Copy me into your sig file and help me spread
  39. Re:Easier solution by Phork · · Score: 3, Interesting

    you very much can have an smtp server that does not listen on a tcp port, but it can only be used for outgoing mail. Many people use this configuration with sendmail so they can send mail directly from there workstation, but recive mail on another system. Sendmail is just invoked from the command line, so it doesnt need to listen on a tcp port.

    --
    -- free as in swatantryam - not soujanyam.
  40. Bad analogy. by achurch · · Score: 4, Informative

    [Running an open relay is] like being ticketed for driving your car down the wrong side of the road at 90 miles per hour and then being pissed off that the cop did not provide you with free driving lessons and give you 10-15 days to stop driving like that.

    Nice analogy, except that it doesn't work. If you're driving at 90 miles an hour on the wrong side of the road, then (1) your speedometer will tell you that you're driving at 90 miles an hour and (2) looking ahead will show you which side of the street you're on, which you can tell is the wrong side because of what you had to know to pass the test to get your driver's license.

    With mail servers, however, there isn't, at least yet, any widespread tool that will tell you if you have an open relay (and given how such tools work, they'll probably be banned as "hacker tools" at the rate things are going these days). In fact, I found out recently that I'd been placed on a blacklist for having an open relay, which took me by surprise because I'd been careful to avoid having anything like that happen; it turned out that I had missed one of the potential avenues of abuse (specifically, using error bounces to spam people).

    So until running a (secure!) mail server becomes as simple as driving a car and people need licenses to run servers, your analogy is inappropriate.

  41. Morons are known to hire idiots in IT by Skapare · · Score: 3, Interesting

    An open relay is not necessary in order to make email function at the outlying offices. You don't even need a VPN. The mail server can be configured with the static IP addresses of each of the offices as valid "local" addresses. Of course a VPN is much better as that also improves your security.

    As confirmed by another of your postings, your company management are morons who have apparently hired idiots for the IT department. Obviously you recognize it, and can leave if you feel that is necessary, or can stay as long as you can deal with it, and are not blamed for it. Should they ever offer to promote you into IT, be sure you insist that you be given the authority to fix the problems with no further permission from management to go ahead.

    --
    now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
  42. No, it's vigilanteism without responsibility by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 3, Insightful
    ORBS does not decide what is "permitted" nor do any of these other databases. They have a set of criteria for deciding whether and when your mail server ends up in their database.

    Which they have all violated on numerous occasions, to the detriment of the innocent bystanders caught up in their incompetence.

    I'm sick of the attitude that ORBS owes you something when your mail server is an open relay.

    And what if it isn't? There have been numerous cases where the various blacklists have included servers

    • completely in error
    • because they shared the first n sections of their IP address with another box that was open
    • long after they've fixed whatever problem there was.

    I don't like open relays and spam magnets any more than you do, but I know how easy they are to overlook, and it will happen, even to generally competent people. It is in everyone's best interests to have a quiet word with the sysadmin at an open site first, because 90% of the time, that will solve the problem.

    On the other hand, what we now have is a vigilante culture where totally unaccountable people can wipe out your company (quite literally, if you depend heavily on e-mail) on a whim, and there isn't jack you can do about it. As far as I'm concerned, if these people are blocking you inappropriately, they should be liable in the same way as anyone else who damaged your business by making a false claim, and you should be able to sue them to the other side of the galaxy.

    It's like being ticketed for driving your car down the wrong side of the road at 90 miles per hour and then being pissed off that the cop did not provide you with free driving lessons and give you 10-15 days to stop driving like that.

    No, it's not even slightly like that. Having an open relay is inconvenient but not immediately dangerous. Having an open relay is not illegal. You are not required to pass a test before running a mail server. The internet is not governed by generally well-reasoned laws. A generally competent driver will not accidentally find themselves driving at 90mph on the wrong side of the road because they just bought a new car. All in all, the two cases aren't even remotely the same.

    I think that ORBS should charge a processing fee for "expedited removal" from their database and, otherwise, just remove systems once a week.

    Do you also think that the media should be able to run business-destroying stories based on complete misinformation, and then charge extra to print an apology in the next edition (even though most of the damage is already done and they don't have to pay anything for doing it)?

    --
    If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.