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Hope for MIPS, From Toshiba
CDWert writes: "EE Times is reporting MIPS is teaming up with Toshiba, to develop their next generation 64 bit proccesor. After all the Itanium Speak and X86-64 talk going on here and the premature predictions of MIPS demise, through their inability to fund the next round I thought this would be refresing to MIPS fans." According to the article though, there will be no product until at least a year from now.
What I found especially interesting was the range of devices that MIPS chips are used in. It occurred to me that very few people probably need a 2GHz P4 in their inkjet printers and mobile phones.
It'll be interesting to see how it compares to the SiByte SB1, which a MIPS64 instruction set SOC with two cores.
Well I never thought Id get an article posted, submitted 7 and never one got accepted, ANYWAY as a result, I didnt complete my story, Just figuring what the hell and let the slashdot editors take it and run with it.
One of the coolest parts, I thought it will be a 0.10 micron process, is anyone else using this small of a process yet ?
Is there hope for SGI and MIPS or has SGI decided against it in total ?
Sig went tro...aahemmm.....fishing........
Read the first two paragraphs of the story. Toshiba is taking MIPS' Amethyst core and developing an embedded controller around it, to be known as TX99. With 600MHz clock, scalable to 1GHz, this is great news for the embedded world and will position MIPS as a competitor to Motorolla for embedded h/w. But it isn't really a new chip for MIPS, just a variation on an existing one.
Also, the purchasers of commodity embedded processors tend to be slow to change, so MIPS/Toshiba will have to make a compelling case to do so.
The clearance system sounds logical. It is not. It is completely arbitrary. -- John Bolton
MIPS is a great technology.
It will revolutionalize the embedded sector quite a bit.
For anyone interested in learning more about MIPS and Linux (there is a port, BTW)... Check out this HOWTO link
The small footprint of MIPS chips makes Linux/MIPS suitable for many embedded systems.
If we're getting by pretty well on 32-bit chips, where's the market for 64-bit chips? High speed routers?
-cyc
/.'s 10 Millionth
ARM's stuff has gained massive ground in the mobile devices and virtually squeezed MIPS (and everyone else) out of that market entirely. The trouble is that MIPS are being squeezed on the upper end of the scale as well by some seriously grunty main CPUs which are starting to adopte the same sort of friendliness to bespoke licensing for incorporation into VLSIs. Such as IBM's PowerPC chips. By way of an example, Sony aren't going with MIPS for the PS3, they're teaming up with IBM.
So where is left for MIPS? Sounds like they're going after SoT type applications which are in need of serious performance, niche that they are. Make something all singing, all dancing with a damn nippy core in there and you hit applications which ARM haven't got the performance for and PPC type chips don't have the power considerations and SoT/integration levels for. Good luck to them.
Considering the clock ranges from 600 to 1000 MHz, how low power requirements they have compared to sux86, and how nice laptops Toshiba makes (at least they used to), I hate to see this technology limited to 'embedded' devices only. Does someone seriously need a faster laptop?
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
To anyone who's coded in Assembly, MIPS is pure beauty.
The entire ISA is minimized so as to accomplish most operations in the fewest clock ticks (duh -- it's RISC). But after dealing with the crappy x86 design, it is so refreshing to deal with a logical and straightforward architecture such as MIPS. No messing with ES or DS pointers, just simple, general purpose registers. And don't get me started on the "extended" register size kludge in x86 (EAX -- what the hell?). MIPS doesn't have such baggage.
I've coded for SPARCs, I coded for Motorola's 68k and 68HC processors. But nothing beats MIPS in terms of power from simplicity.
I understand you confusion.
Your question has to be one of the most confusing Ive ever read, its valid and a good question, the answer is MIPS is far more experienced in RISC architecture than Intel, and second the low cost low power consupion goal from the beggining, they will be using a 0.10 process and any competition is good competition, this processor though is intended for imbedded devices, howd you like a 1ghz risc pda ? Cant really see you squeezing an Itaninum in.
I didnt mean to be terse about your question, It gave me a laugh I had to read it 3 times, kinda like how much wood would a woodchuk chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood....:)
Sig went tro...aahemmm.....fishing........
Itanium will finally get a 64-bit competitor?
</sarcasm>
Seriously, the way some people write about the Itanium, you would think nobody had every created a 64-bits processor before.
But that's not the important part. The important stuff is that the cost of production is the same for a 64 or 32 bits processor (research costs sunk, like in this case). So, argument is why use a larger, less powerfull chip if they can use a better, smaller chip.
Also, legacy compatibility is less important in embedded devices than any other market i can think of (and specially consumer PCs).
unfinished: (adj.)
Well, MIPS has been 64-bit a lot longer than Intel. This isn't like announcing a new ISA, or a new microarchitecture, or really anything other than moving a chip with some ISA extensions to a smaller process for the embedded market.
In addition, the MIPS Alliance Program (MAP) supports the availability of critical hardware and software such as 802.11, Bluetooth, MPEG-2, MPEG-4, audio algorithms, ATM, and others.
Well I think they got all the buzz-word technologies. If they didn't the "and others" should cover it.
I Heart Sorting Networks
This is just speculation, but I think ARM is putting a lot of pressure on MIPS in the embedded market. The ARM is almost as much of a pleasure to work with as MIPS at the assembly level, and it uses very little power. This is why Intel's StrongARM version of the ARM has found its way into many PDA's and other portable devices.
-John
on an earlier article, i predicted the demise of MIPS and similar architectures due to the increasingly prohibitive cost of chip design, and the increasing standardization around intel and intel clusters.
i didn't consider partnerships, if two or more merely giant corporations share the load of development, then there can still be competition for the truly titanic.
anyway, best of luck to them, and here's hoping there will always be a choice.
In Capitalist America, bank robs you!
I presonally believe you should not accounce a product (or whatever) until it's pretty much ready for release.
Never been in business, have you?
I've worked for a few start-ups, including one that has lasted for almost four years now. In the early stages, a company isn't fueled by sales, usually because there isn't really anything to sell yet. In the early stages, a company is fueled by investment and good press.
The only way to keep investors interested in your company, so they'll keep giving the money you use to keep the lights on and pay your people, is to keep the buzz coming. Investors-- an I'm not talking about VCs here-- want to invest in companies that have a lot of potential in the marketplace, and you generate that potential through press releases, demos, and (sometimes) unsubstantiated announcements.
It's not vaporware at that stage; vaporware is a product that purports to be ready, but isn't.
> So, please tell me where does one need 1 GHz embedded processors?
Embedded systems are getting quite fancy nowadays; it was claimed in "Embedded Systems Programming," January 2002, that cell phones have 10^6 lines of C or C++. They need the horsepower.
For example, it might be more cost-effective to implement signal processing in a fast microcontroller, than to have a DSP chip and a general-purpose microcontroller.
The clearance system sounds logical. It is not. It is completely arbitrary. -- John Bolton
I love reading the comments that say things like, "MIPS will revolutionize the embedded market!" and "Maybe there's hope for SGI yet!"
MIPS microprocessors are everywhere, and have been for years and years. They're in your TV, your cell phone, your microwave oven. They're in those cool little GPS receivers that everybody wants for Christmas. They're in the PlayStation 2, Replay TV PVRs, and most of Cisco's routers.
Look around your office. There are probably half a dozen MIPS processors within about twenty feet of you right now.
This is nothing new or revolutionary, and it has nothing to do with the MIPS R10K, R12K, and R14K processors that SGI uses in their computers. Everybody calm down.
Although Linux is ostensibly a competitor to Windows, it has made most of its inroads in the "big iron" market.
Most of the non-Intel processors are in this market (HP-RISC, SPARC, MIPS)-so what we are seeing is Linux, in effect, killing these other processors. High-end production houses are leaving their SGIs for custom build x86 boxes, servers are dropping Sun and IBM for x86 offerings from Dell and Compaq.
As Sun slowly fades into the night (no pun intended) the only non-x86 CPU with any installed base in the high-performance market anymore is the PowerPC, and its fate is closely tied to the shaky Apple, which is struggling to re-invent itself with OS X.
God bless Toshiba! I wonder if Sony would add some R&D into that pot in preparation for the PS3, and maybe we would have another high-performance chip to compete with Intel.
Liberate your mind in two clicks or less.
A piece of news that not many people have noticed recently is that MIPS have settled with Lexra.
Lexra is a company producing MIPS compatible chips without a MIPS licence. Lexra have been revealing holes in the MIPS patents in the ongoing court case. As Lexra have been succeeding a little too well and MIPS have simply given up and in order to stop Lexra from revealing that the MIPS 32 architecture is not patent able they have given them a MIPS32 licence.
Unfortunately MIPS still have a couple invalid patents to press on people who try to make compatible processors.
This is quite annoying personally as I have recently released a MIPS compatible processor (Yellow Star) and have now received letters from MIPS complaining about everything on the web page and threatening legal action even though I haven't broken their invalid patents.
Mouse powered Chips, Open source Processors and Lego
They use MIPS and are struggling with CPU speed compared to Intel. The current 600 Mhz core is in the new Fuel workstation. Be nice to see the 1Ghz version even nicer to get a new generation.
R20K maybe?
Blogging because I can...
So, if they don't improve anything, they will beat Itanium to market and outperform it.
The almost religious "must please the shareholders" attitude is particularly irritating. Fuck the shareholders if they don't like the way you run YOUR business!
People like you just don't seem to get it. Producing quality products and all that other great stuff is a goal. You can't accomplish your goals if you're not in business. No investment means no money which means no products, quality or otherwise.
If you don't have a "must please the shareholders" attitude at all times, you won't be in business long. I know. I've been there. I've blown it, learned my lesson, and tried again.
Trying to judge the decisions a business makes without understanding their context is ultimately futile. "Announcing products before they're ready is deceitful, and wrong! Doing it makes you unethical!"
How about this: my company employs about 30 people. If I run this thing into the ground because I was unwilling to issue an optomistic-sounding press release to keep my investors happy, all 30 of those people will be out of work. I will be directly harming thirty people that I care about very much. How ethical is that?
OK, for the idiot who marked me redundant:
check out the post numbers. Mine was first, everyone else came after me. They should be marked redundant, not me.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
Depends on the product. There is little point in announcing a Segway long before it is ready, except to get the media hype working.
To have a successful microprocessor launch you pretty much need a year so third party vendors can get up to steam on their products(compilers, motherboards, chipsets, etc.). You also want to get some end user projects rolling, with alpha chips, so you can brag about design wins when you do start shipping in volume.
Of course this is all in addition to marketing and stock market reasons for early announcements.
As countless others have pointed out, a modified core aimed at the embedded market isn't very newsworthy (at least not to people who only care about the "computer" (PC/laptop/workstation/server) market, which Hammer and Itanium target). Brings up an interesting question though: Many architectures have started primarily targeted at the "computer" market, failed to meet expectations there, and were retargeted at the embedded market, sometimes with great success. Will an embedded processor ever make the reverse transtion, into the "computer" market?
We recently took an SGI Octane 2 (current SGI state-of-the-art) and an IBM Intellistation with a FireGL3 card for a test drive. The SGI Octane 2 was a 400MHz MIPS R14000 chip, and the IBM a P6 @ 1.7 GHz.
The Intellistation is approximately a third the cost of an Octane 2. It also outperformed it by a factor of 2.5. It outperformed our older Octanes (R12000 @ 300MHz) by a factor of 3.5. Not just CPU (renderman & vmantra) but also interactive OpenGL. Same factor across the boards.
Unless MIPS can pull a serious rabbit out of their ass, they're far, far, far behind INTEL, no matter how you slice it.
I was using 64-bit IRIX eight years ago. Painful the first couple of years. Since it takes MicroSoft 10-15 years to catch up to a new processor size, I don't expect to their pain soon.
Awww, it's not that bad. If the compiler can't schedule an extra instruction in there, it just puts a nop in, and once you get the idea of how it works it's not so hard to mentally swap the instructions. Course it did throw me for a loop when I was coming from x86 asm. "How the f*ck is it doing *that*?"
Granted, it's a performance hack (and since I'm merely a software weenie, I'm not even sure it's useful in the age of speculative execution) but I believe a couple of other RISC architectures share this particular, uh, "feature".
Not to be too offtopic, but a few people have been saying mips is dying. I'd disagree... the ps2 uses a Mips III clocked at 300 megahertz amoung its handful of processors. I think mips has a good thing going with sony, and should keep some money in the bank. I mean TI does the same thing with sun and they're staying afloat.
can't sleep slashdot will eat me
MIPS has BEEN in embedded applications for a long
time. I was using an IDT 3051 (R3000) core in
an X-window terminal 10 years ago. They have
been in laser printers, CISCO networking boxes,
video games, X terminals and other high-end
embedded gear for a while...
-- All that's left of me, is slight insanity, whats on the right, I don't know. -- Bob Mould