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New HDTV Encryption Obsoletes Sets
Brian Weatherhead writes "I wrote an article, detailing the MPAA's control over your HDTV. Their new standards will make any HDTV bought before 2002 obsolete!
Consumers will be upset to say the least." Talks
about the different formats for video signals, and
copy protection methods for those signals. And yes,
if this goes down, anyone with an HDTV without DVI input
could very well be watching 480p signals when HDTV
standardizes. Fortunately at the rate this stuff has
been happening, those TVs will long since have died.
But one thing is for sure- with the DMCA, and these
new video formats, PVRs could become a thing of the
past.
They'll stand up for the individual when doing so puts large wads of cash in their pockets.
Jeremy Baumgartner
Message to HDTV equipment owners:
Let's all get together and rent a cargo plane, load up all our newly obsolete HDTV equipment, and drop it on the MPAA's headquarters. It's pretty heavy stuff; should make a lot of nice holes in the roof, and will hopefully squash some of those responsible.
I repeat, do not buy this stuff if it won't let you do what you want to do. This should serve as a good reminder that the corportations are not in the game to make you happy.
My car is now obsolete...
My existing collection of Blade Runner is now obsolete...
My copy of Photoshop is now obsolete...
Sun is obsolete...
My jacket is obsolete...
My understanding of copyright laws are obsolete...
And my abandonware games are obsolete...but they were to begin with...
: (
Romana: "How did you know?" Doctor Who: "Ah, well, knowing is easy. Everyone does THAT ad nauseum. I just sort of hope"
But one thing is for sure- with the DMCA, and these new video formats, PVRs could become a thing of the past.
;)
If it's viewable, it's recordable. If there's money to be made modding TVs and PVRs to be recordable, someone will be selling mod-chips.
"But that's illegal!"
That's for the courts to decide. Perhaps the primary purpose of mod-chips will be allowing viewers to exercise so-called 'fair use' rights of a personal copy for private viewing, and piracy is only an unintentional side-effect.
You know, like Napster.
They're putting the encryption on the DIGITAL connection. Analog connections will NOT be deliberately obsoleted. My HDTV is connected via analog; is yours?
The article predicts that hardware with analog outputs will become harder to find in the future, but that doesn't mean they'll disappear completely, and by the time they've nearly gone, I'll bet I'll have reason to upgrade anyway.
I mean, 99% of the time my TV is off. Why do I need HDTV to watch it collect dust.
I'll never pay for an HDTV and I can't afford one. So why do I need to pay out my wahzoo for one of eighteen methods of viewing HDTV?
I'd rather go to Europe and watch my stuff on PAL. At least PAL is affordable and widely available and also has a much better picture than NTSC.
HDTV will just suck too much to gain any viewing pleasure from it.
Looks like I'll be watching VHS on my 19" Sony well into the 20-teens.
:)
I'm not touching DVD's until the decss and region encoding issues are resolved (putting my money where my mouth is and voting with my wallett), and the way they have screwed up HDTV since it's original version 10 - 12 years ago is disgusting. This is absolute proof of entropy.
Someday I may replace my cassettes with CD's, but I'm waiting for the technology to prove itself...
War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength. - George Orwell or George Bush?
Seriously, unless or until television is rejuvenated with "The CowboyNeal Show", I think that concerns about the RIAA and MPAA hijacking HDTV are little more than alphabet-soup hysteria.
No kidding? Anyone with any technical savy knows that there is virtually nothing that the MPAA nor any other entity can do that can effectively control the dissemination of information at this point in history. Seems this guy is just parroting what is taken to be obvious around here - the traditional content provider business model is dead, or at least mortally wounded. Must be a Katz deciple.
On the plus side, this article may actually inform more people besides the
Geez - I'm sounding like Katz too. Maybe he's right? Naaaa....
Soko
"Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm." - Anonymous
People knew what they were buying in to.
The problem with things like this is the fact that people don't know they're being cheated. If everybody knew that recording your favorite episode of while you're out for dinner is illegal under the DMCA due to the (Begin Rant) legal crap the sleazebag lawyers who work for the MPAA think up (End Rant), then people would not buy it.
So if people knew what the MPAA, etc... is doing behind our backs, they wouldn't buy it - instituting a sort of boycott. Then, maybe the MPAA would realize that we are the source of their money and better suck it up and make us happy.
We're always complaining about how deep corporate pockets can be, but if we have a probem with it - then don't buy it - we're the ones giving them that money.
Actually, No..
Take a look at the box your HDTV Set Top Box came in, or look at the manual. It includes the capability to "down-res" the analog output, if copyright holders so choose.
That is what is obsoleting your old set. When the industry decides that DVI is the only acceptable interface, they flip the switch, and the 1080i signal is now down-res'd to 480p.
What a luxury, to be an industry that can spit on consumers & still flourish. In fact, HDTV owners are often some of the biggest movie fans, trying to get the best quality possible for their movie viewing. And the movie industry says "screw you"!
A point everyone seems to be overlooking is that this article is referring to next generation DVDs, not broadcast HDTV. The latter must be broadcast "in the clear," but the MPAA has been only been willing to release relatively low-resolution formats.
At the current rate of HDTV adoption, there is no chance of the FCC agreeing to allow encrypted broadcasts - one of the FCCs rules is to promote the use of the airwaves, and nothing stops that quicker than calling the early adopters who invested thousands of dollars "suckers."
Being unable to view high-res DVD-NGs on older HDTVs sucks, but it's not as bad as the broadcast getting encrypted.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
If they would just sell DVDs for $11.99 and and provide movie downloads for $5.99, only a very few would bother pirating their stuff. Forget the encryption mumbo-jumbo. Make it easy for your customers to have a good experience.
Every time somebody sneaks snacks into a movie in their purse, the movie industry loses a few dollars of revenue that should have been spent on outrageously priced candy. However, if people were strip-searched entering the theaters so that the few 'snack-pirates' would be caught, there would be a huge backlash, so they live with the illicit food munchers. As it happens, 99% of the people buy the food in the theaters anyway. No need for high-tech countermeasures or a Concessional Millenium Snackfood Act to protect the theater owners..
It's too bad that the media corporations can't seem to apply real-world customer relations common sense to the digital realm.
Almost all HDTV's sold today still have analog component video inputs. The only ones (maybe) not susceptible to this are the sets with internal HDTV tuners. Since the link between the HDTV decoder and the display is not accessible, it doesn't need to be encrypted. (at least that's the logical conclusion.. Noone would claim that logic governs the existing requirements).
Contradicting this stance on encryption, JVC and a few of the studios just announced last week that they will be selling HDTV movies on D-VHS tapes this year. The content on the tape is copy protected, but the link to the display is plain old unencrypted component video.
Also, the argument they make to justify this requirement is that they don't want people to be able to make "perfect digital copies" of their movies. That's very reasonable, I am fine with that. But, component outputs are ANALOG. To record a movie via the analog outputs does not create a perfect copy. And the equipment to do so is not cheap or accessible. How many of you have seen a VCR capable of recording a VGA output? That's what would be needed (in fact, the output of my RCA HDTV decoder is VGA).
DVI is solving a problem that does not exist. They try to put spin on it & represent it as a benefit to the consumer. But, that is the opposite of the truth. On my tube based HDTV, component or VGA inputs are capable of sending an image better than the set can display. There is no quality advantage. It only adds cost / complexity / and obsoletes a lot of hardware.
And what if the court you are tried in is Judge Kaplan's court?
Where the only parts of the law that matter are those that can be used to find you liable, and not those that can be used to exonerate you.
And what will people do when the DMCA is tightened so that even owning a mod chip becomes an automatic felony with a 10 year prison sentence?
It is no longer just a game of tecnological cat and mouse. We are the mouse, and the gov't will stomp us to death if we try to run away from the cat - it is a no win situation - UNLESS WE GET THE LAWS CHANGED OR OVERTURNED.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
Nobody is broadcasting in HDTV? All major networks are broadcasting things in HDTV. Hook up an antenna. Here are the following shows I can watch _just tonight_ on my HDTV:
ABC: Tarzan, Alias, The Practice
CBS: Eduction of Max Bickford, Rosa Parks Story
Fox: Simpsons, Malcom, Bernie Mac
NBC: Winter olympics
UPN: Buffy
and more.. movie channels HBO, Showtime, etc.
Unless you live in the boonies, most major networks are indeed broadcasting in HDTV OTA. HDTV programming is available via satellite for DirectTV and Dish network. HDTV is available via cable for those with certain cable companies (time warner and a few others).
Next time you post something, try getting a clue and stop karma whoring with your political rhetoric.
Either the courts are going to keep passing dehabilitating laws such as the DMCA and allow the RIAA and Movie industry to keep screwing its customers or its going to realize "Oh gee... I didn't realize that all this piracy was a result of the entertainment industry fattening its wallets with the money of joe consumer, who doesn't really have the money to buy a hdtv but is told by the guy at "Tv world" that he needs it to watch tv and movies". I think that at some time, like with the recent napster thing, that maybe the courts will realize that they are here to defend the best interest of its citizens... not its corporations. Everyone bitchs about this... but i don't see anyone standing outside of radioshack, best buy, audio visual or circuit city with little flyers and such. I mean the hippies do it for starbucks, etc... why don't the nerds unite. We should use our knowledge of technology for good purposes and spread the info that joe consumer doesn't have. I'm sure this could lead to laws like the dmca, etc being looked at more seriously by the courts and maybe even some hilarious hyjinx along the way.
can't sleep slashdot will eat me
In fact, HDTV owners are often some of the biggest movie fans, trying to get the best quality possible for their movie viewing. And the movie industry says "screw you"! The movie industry is screwing their biggest supporters because supporters are demanding more than ever before. I was perfectly content watching commercials before I got my Tivo. I only bought it so I could watch tv shows at my leisure. I had no idea I would become addicted to the control I now have over my tv. If DIVX (Circut's City's format) was introduced before videotape... it might have take off. We would have never known the power of ownership. Once you've left the matrix, there's no going back. The movie, tv and music industries are all fighting loosing battles. I don't think anyone knows for sure how this will end, but one thing's for sure... most of us are not going back.
No. The FCC regulates over-the-air transmissions of television and they have standardized ATSC which is basically unencrypted MPEG-2 at a maximum data rate of 19 Mbps. ATSC also has AC-3 support just in case PBS wants to broadcast surround sound.
The world is neither black nor white nor good nor evil, only many shades of CowboyNeal.
I guess I'm really not worried about these format changes because I bought a mitsubishi, which comes with this gurantee: http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/PROMISE.html I am quit happy with my HDTV. Watching the Olympics right now, go USA!
One note we can take from the history of a commercially unsuccessful product is DAT copy protection. DAT had the potential to become a consumer audio format, but the industry was really worried about copy protection since with DAT you can make perfect digital copies. They put in a copy protection "feature" called SCMS Serial copy management system. After a few years deck manufactures started producing decks that defeat SCMS. Maybe this will happen with HDTV media protection. If not, I'm sure somebody will figure out a way to bypass it or reverse engineer it.
Heeeey...maybe you're on to something there. Maybe the wretched quality of television is intentional, to prevent people from copying it.
Never been an HDTV standard, Huh?
The ATSC digital broadcast standard is well defined. MPEG2 in the data stream is well defined. 1080i, 720p, 480p, and the other video formats are well defined. THESE are HDTV.
What is being discussed in the article is the digital connection between a computer (set top box) and a display device. HDTV can be done without this. DVI is simply an add-on to HDTV to limit access to the data.
This really just sucks. Alot of the early adopters, who are also the best customers of this sort of technology, are likely to be screwed over.
However, there is a good chance for those manufaturers to promote some really strong customer loyalty from those same customers. The manufaturers had best oppose this, loudly and they had best put their money behind it. The next bit, is that they will want to provide to all the customers who own an earlier model HDTV with a converter box to convert the signal to something their TV can handle.
As long as we are at it, why dont the DVD and TV manufaturers take a lesson from the PC industry, and create some removable hardware cards that can be used to adapt their hardware in the event of a standards shift? This feature alone could put a TV manufaturer ahead of the game since it appears obvious that encryption standards will be a moving target.
I dont exactly like the current Copyright situations, but at least the hardware manufaturers can make things easier for the consumers.
END COMMUNICATION
Like my previous posts, the big question I am asking myself since 2 years about USA: WTF?
:).
They are doing EVERYTHING to kill their own buisness. They put crazy protection schemes that screws up joe nobody's CD in his old CD player, they do everything to kill online music sharing instead of building a successful buisness model on top of it, they put up stuff like DMCA that upsets just about everyone exept large corporation that don't even think before publicly using hot terms like "terrorist" to describe some developpers, and now, with such an announcement, they simply WACK in the face the people WITH MONEY (because, you NEED money to buy a half decent TV with hdtv support, and you need LOADS of it to buy a decent screen size with HDTV support). What message are all these moves sending to the consumers?
"We can't decide on a standard, but be an early adopter with only 1% support of channels for the technology you payed good money for, and we'll make it obsolete even before getting to 2%"
"We want your money, once we have it, we don't give a rats ass about you anymore, get on with it"
And the most lame but starting to become excusable: "Well I've got ripped once, twice, now I'll support the piracy system because I have to buy one hacked hardware and I don't have to deal with this shit no more!"
Protecting content is one thing, I had nothing against DVD being encrypted BEFORE becoming public and mainstream, at least then, NOBODY was had, everything was "standard" and you knew that it would probably take something like a new format before everything you bought got obsolete, and that new format would be backward compatible like dvds are to CDs.
TVs aren't cheap like DVD players, and especially HDTV units with decent size and features. If this passes, you just gave a go to pirates to make devices to "clean the signal off that dirt and make it work on older sets" (or circomvention device under the DMCA I guess), for a totally legit use. You'll have fun in court because IANAL but I'm sure there's going to be a big grey zone if such an issue arises.
God I'm glad I'm living in Canada sometimes, we have a clown as a prime minister, but at least they aren't pulling that kind of pathetic moves on us, yet
--- Metamoderating abusive downgraders since my 300th post.
When is someone going to stand up for the individual?
How about when we start doing our part and snail mailing our represenatives in congress and our state government just what we think of this?
And no form letters, be orginial!
House.gov's representative lookup site
DIVX was cleanly destroyed by a concerted early-adopter-consumer effort which led to a total lack of support for the format. I remember the rather quick decline amongst million dollar ads that was due to nothing more than those "in the know" informing Joe Q Public; "DIVX? Don't buy that, it's worhtless." I don't see why that couldn't happen here. Make a big stink beforehand; you'll never buy a set that supports this. It's worthless and forces the user to follow corporate mandates. Then make sure you tell anyone who'll listen. No money-hungry corporation will be able to resist for long; one or more will break ranks and offer non-DVI devices that (hopefully) will sell like hotcakes while the DVI boxes rot on the shelves.
And I mean a nice Sony 36" Color NTSC set. I bought it about 3 years ago.
The thing will probably last me another 20 years.
In fact, I have no intention of replacing it until it dies, during which I can only hope this content control bullshit is sorted out.
If I'm going to so much as subscribe to anything on HDTV, there had damn well better be some way for me to record the shows I want to see. I don't really watch TV now, but I did when I had a satellite feed. I'd do it all over again, but I'd have a satellite TIVO this time.
I'm bitching because I would love to eventually set up my home theater with a widescreen HDTV setup, but I will seriously think twice about it with content controls...even if they don't affect my viewing habits.
// Agent Green (Ian / IU7 / KB1JQO)
// IEEE 802.3: All 10base Are Belong To Us
"The electronics industry kept this secret under wraps as long as they could. "
If this is the case, wouldn't consumers be able to file a class action lawsuit? They should, and it should cost all involved dearly. Possibly, it should even be severe enough that the government should dissallow the use of encryption by the broadcasters.
At the rate this is going, I think people may need to consider government oversight of the mpaa, and to a limited extent, the studios. Although that goes against many capitolistic ideals, these groups seem to embrace every thing bad about capitolism. It sure wouldn't hurt the quality of media -- tv sucks so bad, I'm surprise people aren't embarrased to be in the industry, The stupidity most programs amazing. Very few movies are worth the price of gas to get to a theater, and most musicians are less creative than a person making $10 an hour on an assembly line.
Another option would be to do it the right way -- independant artists selling their wares via the net. Remove the current media houses from the process entirely. This will allow the true artists to not get lost in the shadows of mass marketted corporate garbage we are currently exposed to.
You mean more than one person actually owns an HDTV set?
sulli
RTFJ.
Over-the-air HDTV broadcasts aren't encrypted (and probably won't be), so they probably won't ban PC-HDTV cards.
You'll never be able to legally feed HD DirecTV into your PC, though.
All of these ignorant little schemes whereby the movie/music/content industry slowly work towards implosion will most likely be killed within the next couple of years. Look at the Charly Pride fiasco - they seemed to get enough people together to get a class action lawsuit and force a settlement out of the industry. What happens when 24-49 year old people begin to feel the effects of the RIAA/MPAA's poor business decisions and governmental influencing?
More and more people are getting connected, want to take advantage of all that "new" technology. What will happen when millions of those people are forced into adopting that technology and find that it does little that they want it to and far less than what they've been able to do in the past. Lawyers are probably chomping at the bit waiting for this day to come so that they can chew into the cash cow that is the RIAA/MPAA.
Most of us here are of a small vocal minority. In the "grand scheme" of things it's seen that we have little power over the outcome of these decisions. But is that in fact true. Everyday I come in close contact with at least 20 people, 10 of which I have regular conversations with. Almost every person within my sphere of influence knows about these issues because I've taken the time to communicate them and worked it into conversations about things that are already happening in their lives. How many people within your sphere know about these issues? What will you do to change that?
This issue stirs up so many past issues not just in the music industry but also in how the government is run (US and Global), how laws are passed/enforced/judged, Intellectual Property, "freedom" of information, telling the truth - ethics in company and government communication, etc. It's crazy that there's a connection between wanting to tape Dawson's Creek and the need for US government political finance reform. That connection shouldn't even be there, companies should not be able to shape the policies of a government, only individuals should have that power. No corporate junkets, hosting, food, clothing, ad time, benefit dinners, fund raisers, trips, private meetings. These are PUBLIC officials, everything that they do outside of their personal life should be OPEN AND AVAILABLE TO PUBLIC SCRUTINY. If individuals mass and make requests that are beneficial to the corporations then GREAT that means it's probably beneficial to the public/consumer also. I don't want to hear that Merk/Medco, Phillip/Morris, SONY, AOL/TW endorse candidate X or that GM's local union whatever endorses candidate Y. I don't want to hear about how many lobbyists that MS has hired out from under AOL. I definitely do not want to hear about how some company or corporate rights group is influencing the EU or China or India or other foreign government. That's just crap and more and more they are the reason that the US gets shat upon by other countries. India and Pakistan population were mad because several companies pulled out after 9/11 and that meant jobs and livelihood lost to those people, people already underpaid for their quality work.
We should limit companies ability to influence any government. Companies should not be allowed to voice their issues through the same means meant for individuals. Does that mean that I think government should ignore the needs of business - No - I just think that it should be through a seperate channel that takes the issues and stores them like data and all of that government/corporate/public communication would be free and viewable to the people (public would be anonymous by request... comments would be posted without ID). The government should take the data and be proactive in it's use, not reactive to the corporate needs but forecast those needs based on what the public is telling them is the real need. I know that's all idealistic, but why can't idealism create realism? Why can't what we dream and think be manifested into something tangeable?
The average Joe does not yet see these issues as a problem and won't until they effect him or someone he knows. Therefore it's our task to communicate how it is or will be soon effecting us (and them) and make it very REAL for average Joe. The other issue is that the people we really need on our side couldn't care less about this issue because they are struggling on issues of food or daycare or healthcare and not "can I watch my otaku goodies". Until we show them that, eirily enough, this does/can/will effect them then we won't have the votes necessary to really do some damage
"Do not be swept up in the momentum of mediocrity." - anon
I work in one of the companies that owns a TV network.
Yes, the new standards are intended to be used by OTA local TV stations. They plan to instruct decoders to down-res any non-secure compliant setups.
So, people that watch over the air HDTV now and enjoy 1080i & 720p broadcasts, will eventually be watching 480i/p versions unless they upgrade to the new compliant hardware.
Insane? Yes.
Foolhardy? Yes.
nuclear iraq bioweapon encryption cocaine korea terrorist
What a timely story. Earlier today, I was just going out to purchase an HDTV monitor (Toshiba 36HFX71) because my old 20" Sony died. I figure I might as well get an HD model, since they are only like $800 more than a similar flat-screen standard-definition set.
/. and saw the initial story shortly after it was posted. I read the article and decided I don't want to get one now. I was going to get a dandy new DVD player to go with it, but I guess Hollywood will have to get by without me purchasing movies, now.
However, before leaving I just happened to check
It seems I keep watching less and less TV, and fewer and fewer movies. I'm sure these new "standards" will only help me reclaim more time.
It's amazing that in their greedy quest for money, they actually deter me from giving them more!
I don't know, but it works for me.
I like to watch TV, but frankly it's not worth jumping through lots of hoops to do. Television content doesn't have enough brains put into it to really be worth all this encryption bs. If a show I want to watch is on a crummy timeslot, and I'm not allowed to record it, that's the Telelvision Industry shooting themselves in the foot. They are better off making it easier and easier for people to watch when they can, instead of trying to limit it. It's bad enough I have to be at my job by a certain time, it's bad enough I have to be at the doctor's by a certain time, being in front of my television at a certain time is not the type of shackles I want to place on myself.
Sorry TV Industry, you need better content before you can convince me I need to be punctual.
"Derp de derp."