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China Ahead in Stem-Cell Research

Posted by michael on from the organ-banks dept.

Andrew writes: "New Scientist is reporting (for free) on the WSJ's China clones human embryos story: "Chinese scientists are claiming a great leap forward in human cloning - the creation of dozens of cloned embryos advanced enough to harvest embryonic stem cells."" The lengthy Wall Street Journal story is also on MSNBC.

18 of 395 comments (clear)

  1. What does it say when... by cliffy2000 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    When a Communist nation allows scientists greater freedom than a Democracy? Just saying...

    1. Re:What does it say when... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The Nazi doctors were allowed a great deal of freedom with their expirements. Just saying . . .

    2. Re:What does it say when... by Filter · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Like the freedom scientists had to experiment on humans under Hitler?

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    3. Re:What does it say when... by mqduck · · Score: 5, Insightful

      A nation allows more "freedom" to its corporations than its dissenting individuals? It's called Capitalism.

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    4. Re:What does it say when... by JonKatzIsAnIdiot · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It says that one respects human life and the other doesn't.

    5. Re:What does it say when... by enjo13 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ok troll, i'll play.

      Democracy != absolute freedom.

      A democratic nation can certainly limit freedoms, and any fruitful democracy does. In this case the democracy has thus far decided (although not clearly in one direction or the other) that the moral cost of stem cell research is not worth the scientific gain. Arriving at this decision is complex and cumbersome process.. that is the wonder of democracy. The people have effectively put controls on this research themselves.

      A communist nation (or dictatorship) has another method of arriving at decisions. In this case a single ruler (or single party) gets to make the decisions about what freedoms to limit. Traditionally China has placed great limits on the freedom of its people, but in this case the ruler has chosen to let stem cell research continue. This shouldn't really be surprising, it is certainly easier to convince a communist leader with limited responsibility to the wants of the people to pursue a potentially controversial policy.

      This mirrors what we saw in the Soviet Union. They accelerated their space program because the leadership had limited responsibility for the lives of the people involved. They didn't have to care what the people thought.

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    6. Re:What does it say when... by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And apparently, so are the people of China, who if current trends continue will soon have cures for all kinds of diseases which will continue to kill and cripple Americans.

      Well. Actually, we're not arguing about socialism vs. capitalism; we're arguing about socialism (the government controls the economy) vs. fascism (the government chooses a few large corporations to control the economy, and everyone else can go to hell.) China is getting steadily less socialist because socialism generally doesn't work very well; the US is sliding into fascism because that's what capitalism tends to become if We The People don't pay attention. Real capitalism is an infinitely better choice than either, but right now nobody seems to have the will or interest to maintain it. News flash: capitalism is hard work.

      What does all this have to do with science? Simple. Science flourishes in a zeitgeist of free inquiry and skepticism. Neither socialist bureaucrats nor fascist oligarchs are friendly to such a zeitgeist, because it threatens their power. Both socialism and fascism tend to be profoundly conservative, in a sense that has little to do with the traditional left-right dichotomy. It's a sad irony that Communist China is doing a better job of breaking the stranglehold of that kind of conservatism than the US is.

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  2. Inevitable by legLess · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Briefly (I'm at work) this is exactly why the U.S. shouldn't ban this research. It's bloody inevitable. Our government is caving to a few screaming fundamentalists over one of the most important medical advances in history.

    Who's going to pursue this more ethically? The Chinese, who've been alleged to use prisons as organ factories, or us?

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    1. Re:Inevitable by Kphrak · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Hitler supposedly did a lot of experiments on prisoners. I didn't hear of anyone seriously saying,
      "It's bloody inevitable! They'll create a superhuman! We must do it too, because otherwise they'll do it first. After all, we're more ethical, so we must do what they're doing."
      Isn't that the arrogant attitude that most leftists detest about the US? Since we're more ethical, we can do the unethical because it's more right when we do it.


      Has it ever occured to you that it may not be right at all?


      I'm pro-life, and do not think that stem-cell research is murder, the way abortion is. But an attitude of "they might succeed in something unethical, so let's do it before they can" is a trip to a very slippery slope.


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  3. Re:Embryo cloning, abortion? by Kushana · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The difference, of course, is the mother. The Roe v. Wade decision said nothing about the "rights" of the foetus, it was about the woman's right to control over her own body.

    Perhaps unfortunately, there exists no equivalent decision supporting the rights of scientific research, cloning, or medical advances.

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  4. asia is the way to go... by supernova87a · · Score: 3, Insightful

    many people have predicted (and it's becoming apparent) that Asia will lead the way in such biotechnology areas. People in Asia are not quite as brainwashed or blinded by Christian religious dogma, and probably don't mind conducting research that can improve the quality of human life.

    While the politicians here debate, and try to cater to every consituency, by holding research back, the rest of the world will be able to run with the ball...

  5. Mixed reactions by tiltowait · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Column A
    This is yet another reason why China scares me. Anyone upset over the American jingoism since 9/11 and during the Olympics should be blown away by the scope of Chinese nationalism, to say nothing of their singularly ass backwards system of medicine, politics, human rights, spam filtering, etc..

    Column B
    Kudos for this country for pushing the scientific frontiers of medical benefits to mankind. This forward-thinking is yet another sign of the benefits of not being caught up in corrupt fundamenalist political wackos. But since China's rich cultural heritage spanks the USA in longevity by about, oh, a factor of ten, it shouldn't be surprising where they're headed - it's only a matter of time before this technically advanced economic powerhouse dominates the globe.

  6. Many More Maos day celebration to follow. by RealityCrutch · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Of course they are ahead of us. We are a democracy and any substantial protest brings us to a screeching halt. (Think: nuclear power)

    And as a totalitarian state, not particularly worried about ethics, foreign opinion, or foetuses, they have a very large source of research material.

    But I expected better from many of you. They aren't doing this to increase their population. They aren't even doing this for stem cell research per se. They have plenty of stem cells from their very aggressive population control program. No, what they want is money. They want to clone embryos to sell to us squeamish westerners. They have to develop the technique of cloning them, so they can clone the stem cell lines we hypocritically approve of, then sell them back to us. What a wacky world we live in!

  7. Olympics.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Are clones prohibited from the Olympic games?

  8. Re:Talk about mixed messages by ziriyab · · Score: 5, Insightful
    They're not cloning embryos to make more humans. Read the article.

    The biggest problem with /. is that some very smart people who know a lot about one specific field, think they're qualified to comment (and +mod) on things they know nothing about.

  9. Re:Embryo cloning, abortion? by issachar · · Score: 2, Insightful
    These people are just as "moral" as you.

    BZZZT Wrong! Morality is not a relative issue. Something is either morally acceptable or it is not. There's no such thing as "Well that may be wrong for you, but it's not wrong for me". It doesn't suddenly become moral to beat your wife or your children just because someone thinks it's okay.

    For any moral question, there is a right answer, and a wrong answer. Establishing the right answer is more tricky, but the fact that people don't agree on it doesn't mean there are two answers.

    The world is either flat or round, it's not both. God either exists, or he does not. Foetus' are either human beings, or they are not.

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  10. Re:Lack of Ethics in Chinese Society by jnana · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Who are you to impose a global ethical standard on anyone? Ethics is a totally subjective ideal and there is no act that can alone be considered wrong or right, even in the post S11 environment of today.

    Your position is untenable. Do you really want to cling to ethics as subjective? It means that it is okay if a country decides to raise 98% of its people so that they can be slaves to the remaining two percent (literally slaves), perhaps they even get killed and eaten at age 35, when they have outlived their usefulness but still taste pretty good and serve as a good food resource for the 2%?

    Your bullshit argument basically amounts to saying that we weren't justified in doing anything about Hitler, because ethics is a subjective thing, and we can't impose our subjective values on somebody else or interfere with their own culturally valid ways of life. And should governments not impose laws that regulate conduct, since everybody has their own subjective interpretation of ethics?

  11. Re:Embryo cloning, abortion? by HanzoSan · · Score: 3, Insightful



    Please, most children are raised in a broken home, thats the stupidest excuse i've ever heard.

    I was raised without a father around, Am I going to wish i were aborted? hell no! And i dont think anyone else raised in a "broken" home wishes they were aborted either unless they have some serious mental problems.

    If you are in a foster home, or a broken home, it does not mean you'll grow up to be a bad person.

    Please stop talking about emotional problems and proper parantage as if its somehow normal in this day and age to have that knowing that almost half the kids growinng up or who have grown up these days grew up in a broken home. Alot of kids were abused mentally, sexually, etc, and have had it worse than me, and this was by their real parents, honestly this is beyond your control, but even if i grew up like that, i still wouldnt wish i was aborted.

    Its not right for you to judge for some other lifeform if it should live or die, its up to that life form to decide for itself, that is my opinion.

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