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China Ahead in Stem-Cell Research
Andrew writes: "New Scientist is reporting (for free) on the WSJ's China clones human embryos story: "Chinese scientists are claiming a great leap forward in human cloning - the creation of dozens of cloned embryos advanced enough to harvest embryonic stem cells."" The lengthy Wall Street Journal story is also on MSNBC.
The poor boy is now solidly stuck between his Oh So Rightous right wing religious supporters and the need to keep the United States up with the rest of the world in genetic research. It looks like science suffers at the hands of the Morality police.
Hasn't this happened before?... (Galileo, Darwin, ...)
There is nothing so silly as other peoples traditions, and nothing so sacred as our own.
I find it also interesting how the one main country with whom the United States has mixed in civil rights with trade agreements is the country that may end up further along in this line of research. Of course, one could say that Hitler had learned a lot through research as well. How far can we allow our morality to stretch to further the advancement of the human race?
For those that would die defending it, Freedom
has a sweet taste that the protected will never know.
the future might turn out an ugly place.
I believe the present is an ugly place. Read a newspaper. Look at some pictures of dead Palestinians, and think how complacent the US is in their deaths.
And as for "evil, soulless facist governments," are you implying that the US is any better? We only ban this research because of the religious right. Get religion out of government and we'd be doing this, no question.
I believe that, if you dig into some of the KGB stuff from the early 80's, the russians were (as a military experiment) working on human body modification through genomic experimentation and gene mutation/cloning. Alot of the documents are obviously still hidden away, but there was a site I visited last year that was a clearing house for recently declassified documents from the Moscow bureau.
While nothing specifically mentioned the cloning, analyists who had been looking for hints on space weapons, stealth bomber/fighters, and missing prisoners came to the conclusion that some of the rumors about human cloning in remote siberian research stations were not without backing evidence. This was due to a small trickle of the worst dissidents, those who had good health records and whom were fit and free from known genetic diseas in their families, were disappearing.
These stations still remain closed to the world and heavily guarded, and there are only rumors. Rumors like men being bred from birth with extra ribs and denser/thicker muscles and bones. Men who had enhanced senses of smell or night time eyesight.
A few of the people who went "missing" from soviet prisons for serious crimes were noted as re-appearing years later in soviet Marine Infantry brigades (spetznat) with clouded service records, but it is difficult to imagine Russia in the 80's having the technical knowhow or where with all to be able to "mutate" or modify already grown adults. I toss that one out though as an x-files kind of rumor that sure could scare the kids up around Mermansk.
Like I said, alot of rumors... but it makes you think. You gotta wonder what the CIA paid for too... there is alot of black budget money that doesn't get tracked beyond the agency front door... they managed to produce the Blackbird that way, and U2/TR1 as well as who knows what. I wonder if the gov't has dabbled in genetic mutation or embryonic modification/cloning...
Oh well, in direct comment to the article and posters here, let me go on the record that I think this is not a bad thing. China is not looking to increase their population (which they have difficulty controlling or feeding as is now)... they are doing research to A) Best the US and Europe at their own game, and B) come up with medical breakthrough that meet condition A and benefit their own society as well... maybe even boost their economy with something original that only they can produce, that being working genetic medicines they for once control under patent.
The next man on the moon will be chinese too. They have a plan for manned mission in the near future.
Our science fiction always assumes that space colonization and the "future" will be dominated by western ideals, but as things are trending now, the future looks brighter for asia.
So let me get this right: Stem cells hold the potential for good but without pondering the cliche consequences, the future might become an ugly place? Ok.
Which Governments actually do shows signs of fascism? What countries impose bans on scientific research and raise tariffs on imported goods all while preaching on Democracy and Free Trade?
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This would be a step backwards in court cases that rely on DNA evidence.
With people being truly identical in every which way (not including haircuts and stuff like that) including DNA, it would be nearly impossible to prove innocence or guilt of one of the clones in a court case that currently relies on such technologies.
Think about it...
"Your client was on the security camera and it was his blood on the floor"
"No, your honor, it was his identical clone with the same DNA - my client was nowhere near the place of the incident"
-kwishot
Because the USA is filled with Facism as well, perhaps we arent as bad as Germany, Russia, China, but we arent as good as some other places in Europe, or NZ either.
As far as freedom goes, Communism does have its benifits, one of them is science benifits greatly from it because scientists have complete freedom.
The only problem China faces is the fact that they have too many people and not enough jobs for them all, their government is out of order, right now we are entering the information age, resources and man power will matter less, information will matter more, and in this situation, the bigger population shall have more producers of information.
China and Communism benifits from this greatly, however because of their stupidity they are restricting information through censorship, if they ever allow their people to actually access the information then we'd be left in the dust.
Then again we have problems like that here (Copyright is a form of Censorship)
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Its sad to think that I will probally be the last generation in my family to have known the USA as a technological superpower.
.. im registered as a Republician, and fairly conservative about stuff in general. I'm ironically a futurist. I think we should be more green, use cleaner technology, and improve our life/life style. But keeping the cost to future generations in account.
.. its TODAY that counts.
.. we are going to isolate ourselves from new technology .. new ideas. [fun experiment, ask your average religious right how much the yen is at .. or the euro .. and see if they know.]
.. and you will understand what i mean.] When a society isolates itself socially, it stagnates. They may have been a super-power economy once, but the bubble burst - and with that loss of economy, the last 40 years of growing pains are showing.
.. some to make a point, some to save time.
With increasing restrictions on scientific study, assanine patent law, and scientific monopolies - it seems everyone is out for either the buck or the moral highground. [or a political office.]
Hobbes would be proud, since he was the first to preach that to inturrupt the 'process' of god was a sin. Apparantly cloning (as well as violent video games and open source software) falls into this catagory.
Am i using a sweeping generality , you betchya`. Is it far from the truth ? not really as far as I would like it to be.
While i must say
Apparantly the way the govt slid the last 8 years, was to pander to the highest voting majority, go back to our 16th centruy religious roots, and avoid change.
change apparantly is evil. and will destroy our 'family' values. Whatever values they have 'saved' in 15 years when people are mutating horribly due to all the petrolium toxins in the air/water/soil won't matter
As the US becomes more and more self centered and less a 'world' player
Anyone see what japan did ? Japanese as a culture are rather xenophobic. [Just watch a 6 foot tall black man walk down a street in Yokohama
Incest between mother and son is common due to bonds formed from 'exam' stress. Rape and molestation is practicaly a way of life for young girls. And 12 year old prostitutes in the Tokyo/yokahama area are not only common, but ALMOST accepted. Theft and crime, once unthinkable (outside organized gangs) are becoming common place.
Again, im being general here
I just wonder, how much of 'protecting our values' Japan did 10-15 years ago. Are we repeating the same social mistakes? By refusing to let our scientists to explore? When our future is being decided by people who are holding onto beliefs that were founded 2000 years ago, when the world (to them) comprised of about 1/3 of europe - is that system equiped to handle the way the world is now ?
would you choose to program your new graphics application in C++ ? or COBOL ?
--Ne auderis delere orbem rigidum meum, non erravi pernicose!
You are deluded. Stalin wrote a really great constitution, he also had practically all the members of the Supreme Soviet that enacted it murdered. Stalin's 'secret ballots' consisted of an option to go behind a curtain to mark your ballot rather than just place it in the box and have it count automatically for the party candidate. In Stalin's time most of the people who went behind the curtain were murdered.
Stalin's state had little to do with any political creed other than opportunism and the persuit of power. There is even evidence that Stalin originally joined the communist party as a Tsarist mole.
As for Stalin's effect on the economy, it can only be considered positive compared to the stagnation under the Tsars. Most of the progress took place under Lenin in any case, Stalin was too busy massacring Kulacks by the million and issuing edicts that twenty plants be built when there was material for three with the result that none were completed.
The only positive effect the communists had was they diverted the massive flows of capital that the Tsars had squandered on themselves and poured it into industrial developments, but that did not require a police state.
However, that said, it is quite hilarious that the response of US side folk to the thought that China might surpass them scientifically is to dredge up cold war rhetoric. China has not been a Stalinist state since Mao died and the gang of four were liquidated. Today it is merely an under-developed kleptocracy. If China was not a rival to US power and did not call itself communist the GOP hawks would have no trouble at all supporting them no matter how many people the regime kills.
If you have a billion people and a part way modernised economy you canout perform a country of a quarter your size in a few selected areas of science. There is little reason to believe that the Chinese version of communism will be any more long lasting than the Soviet one. The only difference is that in China the impetus for change is comming from economic success rather than stagnation. Nobody believes in Chinese communism, the issue for Chinas leaders is not whether they adopt a democracy but how they get from where they are to where they want to be.
If China succeeds in a peaceful democratic transition they will inevitably outstrip US power in the same way and for the same reason that the US suceeded the UK, population size.
China is planning to become a biotech super-power. That is not the immediate threat to the US however since it is unlikely many US scientists would move to China. Many will move and are moving to the UK and Canada however.
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Who are you to object to his imposing a global ethical standard on anyone? If ethics are a totally subjective ideal, then how can his act of imposition be considered wrong or right?