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K12LTSP + MOSIX Howto

Paul Nelson writes "Richard Camp posted a very complete, step by step guide to building a MOSIX cluster. "...The objective of this howto is to guide the reader on setting up a Mosix cluster with diskless nodes. The setup is based on K12ltsp Project. This should provide an easily scalable system."

18 of 77 comments (clear)

  1. At last... by Usquebaugh · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is exactly where I feel Linux should be used. The idea of dumb terminals and a central server has proven to be the most cost effective way for companies to implement computer technology.

    It's becoming clear that Intel/AMD etc are going to crush most other general purpose CPUs. Be it with SMP or SMT or both. With the increase in PCI bandwidth coming and the heralded 64bit chips intel will start to take over more and more server machines. Remember in the steel industry people scoffed at mini mills, kodak scoffed at digital cameras etc etc.

    In the future most companies will have dumb terminals and a server room with racks of cheap intel boxes. The OS on the server will be fault tolerant to the max, oh I lost a node ahh well only 255 left. Uptimes measured in years. Hang on a sec that sounds like an IBM or SUN mainframe.

    What is rapidly becoming apparent is that network speed is now more important than CPU/MEMORY speed.

    1. Re:At last... by Jerf · · Score: 2

      Why are the dumb terminal people still hoping they'll be right in the end?

      When the price of a dumb terminal and a usable computer are within spitting distance of each other, what's the cost saving of a dumb terminal? Woo, I saved $50, but now I'll lose hundreds of times that in productivity while my user is waiting on the network when they could have gotten data from the hard drive.

      Here's a better and more likely scenario: The servers are missing. Instead, the user's desktops use their spare cycles to process requests and such while their user is deciding whether the next word in their memo should be "Sir" or "Madam". Transparent redundency, automatic backups, all for 'free'.

      In the future, servers will be reserved for those rare situations where they are actually and truly necessary, like ultra-large scale account processing (think Visa).

      Dumb terminals died with the birth of the $300 PC... and prices continue to drop. (BTW, I'm not counting display, because the dumb terminal will need one too.) There's just too many advantages to making sure there's power on the desk to sacrifice them to a 1970's computing architecture.

    2. Re:At last... by benjamindees · · Score: 2, Informative

      Distributed servers is an interesting proposal, and might be the solution in the end, but in the interim it is just not feasible. Clusters *always* run better when there is a central server to coordinate tasks. The algorithms for distributed coordination are just not there. Network protocols (P2P) for distributed file-sharing are getting closer, but are still not scalable without huge performance hits. And the most important point of all, $2000 will still buy a machine that is up to the task of serving hundreds of clients. When/if processing speed hits a ceiling (price/performnce) and home users no longer need twice the power they needed a year ago, distributed serving will be price effective. Until then, a structured environment offers so much more in terms of manageability that the price is worth it.

      --
      "I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
    3. Re:At last... by Jerf · · Score: 2

      I was speaking in the future, as was the original poster. Right now, we've probably got the optimal solution for 'right now' technology. Or at least fairly closely optimal.

    4. Re:At last... by Usquebaugh · · Score: 2

      I'm not hoping to be right or wrong. There a benefits to the client/server model. TCO is not one of them.

      Initial purchase price of hardware is trivial it's the support and maintenace that kills companies. Downtime and tech salaries are huge costs.

      There servers go missing, not yet but maybe in the future, I don't see it though. But hell I've been wrong before :-) This would require a fast/very fast network, much faster than that needed for terminals. Network storage is hard to distribute. You get nothing for 'free' evrything costs it's all a matter of how much. All the points you make for this point apply in greater detail to a centralised server.

      Hell terminals have been around since the sixties. Maybe even before. Just because it was discovered a long time ago does not make it invalid. Power on the desktop is useless without a network.

  2. We've got a similar project... by bhsx · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The Mandrake Mosix Terminal Project is extremely similar and is based on the k12ltsp concept. Check it out if you can. K12ltsp is great for rolling-out massive amounts of LTSP servers quickly.

    --
    put the what in the where?
    1. Re:We've got a similar project... by BadlandZ · · Score: 2
      "This project was rejected by SF, due to lack of merit... HUH? Special thanks to the folks at PostNuke.com, Mandrake, LTSP, and of course, Linus."

      Pretty sad. Considering the number of projects on SF that don't even have any code to look at or anything at all to download, it's hard to understand this.

  3. MOSIX Deployment by PatJensen · · Score: 5, Informative
    There is a much better, easier way to deploy a MOSIX cluster. This article is poorly written, and missing several important sections. It is not for the kernel-phobic or beginner users. The preferred way to bring up a diskless cluster with easy tear down, no maintenance, and no network booting required is to use ClumpOS.

    ClumpOS is a bootable CD with network drivers that is pre-setup with a custom kernel that contains MOSIX and MFS out of the box with no work required. You can download and burn ClumpOS and then boot it on your slave machines.

    As far as building your MOSIX master goes, I prefer Debian with the prebuilt easy to deploy MOSIX packages and kernel patches. The links to find both are below:

    Clump/OS: A CD-based mini distribution
    MOSIX on Debian

    MOSIX is a fun, extremely useful tool. Just remember when building your Debian kernel to make sure to turn ALL options on for MOSIX, this includes MFS. Otherwise, you will have weird problems with not being able to migrate processes to your cluster.

    -Pat

    1. Re:MOSIX Deployment by Halo5 · · Score: 2, Informative

      The only problem with Clump/OS is that it doesn't handle multiple NICs well (it can handle it, but the installation process is a little tougher). This kinda sux because with MOSIX, its better to dedicate a NIC to MOSIX communication and use a second NIC for standard networking. The Clump/OS group is working to better this situation; hopefully they are making progress...

      On a brighter note, the Clump/OS has a cool monitor program called ClumpView, which looks awesome!

      --
      665: The mark on the forehead of Satan's slightly less evil brother, Stan.
  4. Mosix rules by benjamindees · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I think this is where clustering should be done, for now at least, at the thread level. Most programs are multi-threaded. Most people don't want to rewrite programs to support MPI or PVM. Lots of projects that previously had to implement their own clustering protocols can just utilize Mosix instead. If I could talk my boss into it, I would put Linux/Mosix on every desktop at work and have a giant Mosix cluster. This is the future of computing.

    --
    "I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
  5. Why would centralization make life easier? by Christopher+Thomas · · Score: 2

    This is exactly where I feel Linux should be used. The idea of dumb terminals and a central server has proven to be the most cost effective way for companies to implement computer technology.
    [...]
    In the future most companies will have dumb terminals and a server room with racks of cheap intel boxes. The OS on the server will be fault tolerant to the max, oh I lost a node ahh well only 255 left.


    I'm trying to figure out what the benefit of this is. You'd have to maintain the user clients - which will still break down - and the server nodes on top of this.

    You get fault tolerance - but user terminals don't need uptimes of years with transparent failover. You get centralized administration - but there are many ways of making this happen with user workstations too (witness the NT systems here that re-image their own drives every week).

    Performance will always be worse with a centralized solution than with user workstations, because you have no local disk for fast scratch space (used by many applications in the environments I've worked in).

    If computers cost $10k apiece, I can see cost being an issue, but if the cost of hardware and maintenance for a user's machine is much, much less than the cost of the user sitting at the machine, I don't see any justification on the basis of cost either.

    How is this supposed to be a "most cost-effective" solution, again?

    [Disclaimer: I think dumb terminal systems are nifty; I just don't think they're useful under most business conditions.]

    1. Re:Why would centralization make life easier? by Usquebaugh · · Score: 2

      Mainting user hardware is a plug and unplug solution. The hardware is broken, switch in the new hardware. Keep it generic.

      Centralised administration for security/backups etc is far cheaper and more reliable than spreading it out. Also what happens if we need a faster machine, in a distributed environment every PC has to be upgraded in a centralised model only one has to be. Now the cost for the new hardware may be the same, unlikely but maybe, the cost of installation will not be.

      Performance will be no better or worse than that of the central server/network, no local storage. Nothing to tune, fiddle or break locally.

      The cost of any hardware/software directly affects the bottom line. It matters not how much the PC costs in relation to the users salary.

      Dumb terminals have worked for businesses for over thirty years. One of the reasons they work is that PCs are very lighty utilised by most users, a lot of seti cycles are a testament to this. If the machines are centralised then the cycles can be spread between many users.

      I think, I covered all of your points, you could attack a centralised solution on a number of points but TCO is not one of them.

    2. Re:Why would centralization make life easier? by benjamindees · · Score: 2, Insightful
      because you have no local disk for fast scratch space


      no, but with the $100 you saved not buying a disk you could have an extra 256MB of VERY FAST scratch space.

      --
      "I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
  6. Re:Desktop clustering by distributed.karma · · Score: 2, Informative

    This idea is used at CERN. Many desktops belong to a cluster (managed with Condor), but only when not in active workstation use. Therefore full clustering effect only becomes at night, but then again the daytime desktop use is not slowed down by batch work.

    --

    --
    If you moderate this, then your children will be next.

  7. PXE by GigsVT · · Score: 3, Informative

    Having set this up myself, it seems the author has a few misconceptions about PXE. These seem to be common, as I get into heated discussions on IRC with people who have never done this themselves, but seem to think they know better than I do for some reason. I may have some minor errors in my description below, but I think it's mostly correct.

    First off, his cluster isn't really diskless, since he uses floppies.

    PXE is an Intel specification, but it is open as far as I know. Intel provides binary only daemons for PXE for Linux. PXE is a way to get around the 640k limitation that is inherent when using the bootp(or dhcp)/tftp boot methods.

    PXE is not something that is supported in the kernel as the author implies. PXE is a userspace daemon that allows the workstations to download the whole kernel and also it can present some pretty complicated menus to the user. It is one type of bootstrap, and it is pretty complicated to set up. The PXE daemon for Linux isn't documented very well either, and requires some strange configuration of itself, and also of the DHCP daemon on the server.

    Basically, the way I understand it, the DHCP process begins normally from the workstation boot ROM, and the DHCP returns a specific value that tells the workstation information about PXE. The PXE client then connects to the PXE server, and the user is presented boot options, which can be complex.

    I didn't use PXE in my final cluster though, due to the extra complication. What I found out was that the SYSLINUX people write something called PXELINUX. PXELINUX is misnamed because it does not use PXE, rather, it is a bootloader that loads over the normal BOOTP/TFTP method, which is loads simpler to set up and maintain. PXELINUX should be thought of as a replacement for PXE.

    Without a boot loader, a lot of the docs say you can just send the kernel to the directly to the client. This would work, but iff your kernel is less than 640k, as tftp/bootp operate in real mode, and they have to download the whole thing before they begin booting. (BTW the docs on diskless setups in Linux are extremely out of date for the most part)

    With a raw kernel setup, it's also impossible to pass the kernel any boot options. It's the same as if you dd the kernel to a floppy device.

    I gained a lot of knowledge about diskless booting in modern Linux in my setup, if anyone wants me to write a book, I'm open to offers. :)

    -Gigs
    gigs(at)vt(dot)edu-cational

    --
    I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
    1. Re:PXE by Chad+Page · · Score: 2, Informative

      With Debian and the 82559-based Intel NICs I've used with PXE, I did not need any special PXE settings, just pxelinux and the dhcp-server and tftp-hpa daemons in Debian woody/unstable. I've successfully booted a kernel with a ~30-31MB initrd.gz (decompressing to 128MB) and it's not difficult to use at all. I'm building three diskless cluster boxen using the D810EMO which also works very well for this. You can even load memtest86 to test the box, since it uses the Linux loader.

  8. OpenMOSIX by GigsVT · · Score: 4, Informative

    Also, be sure to support OpenMOSIX

    Apparently MOSIX is going to go closed source, so test out OpenMOSIX if you can, the project is really taking off and has several contributers, but it needs your help in testing the kernels. OpenMOSIX is being sucessfully used in major installations now, so it should be fine for what you want to use it for, and also you won't be getting yourself going on a (soon to be) proprietary path.

    --
    I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
  9. Re:Any smart uses out there? by GigsVT · · Score: 2, Informative

    I'm using it at home, mostly it just crunches dnet packets all day. Dnet doesn't migrate over MOSIX due to its use of shared memory between threads, so a shell script in normal Beowulf style is used to start it:

    ssh user@node1 dnetc
    ssh user@node2 dnetc
    [...]

    Then a corresponding:

    ssh user@node1 killall dnetc
    ssh user@node2 killall dnetc
    [...]

    For something like dnet, this works well.

    I've also played with distributed John the Ripper, but it also doesn't parallelize, so the way it has to be done is break the target shadow file up into equal chunks, the same number of chunks as you have nodes ideally. John does migrate though, so you can start and stop all the processes on a single node, and MOSIX will migrate them out.

    I'm currently limited because I havn't set up MFS, which means I/O bound processes don't migrate. Once I set that up, it will open up the cluster to a whole new class of applications. Generally, MOSIX@home hasn't been as useful as I first thought it would be, as most desktop applications don't migrate very well, but if you do any heavy CPU bound stuff, then MOSIX might be for you.

    --
    I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.