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Higher Learning, Online?
provell writes "An ad for the U of Phoenix online education program caught my eye the other day. I know the concept of online education isn't a new one but it seems to be growing more prevalent with each passing year. As an IT consultant at the age of 18, I didn't give myself much chance for college and I don't get much time in town to take part time courses. With the burst of the E-Bubble, I'm starting to notice an increase in hiring standards. Is a BS a necessary bargaining chip for the IT industry and are online undergrad programs widely accepted/adequate? Any thoughts/experiences would be much appreciated."
Is a BS a necessary bargaining chip for the IT industry
Here we go again!
Here's what Google churned up.
There's lots of options, and the best way to check accreditation is to check the sites, or even phone them, if numbers are listed.
If I weren't nailed to the penis, I'd be pushing up the daisies!
From my experience, the most important thing you can have is a personal reference at the company you are trying to get a job with. Let me explain.
I don't have a degree and have had a very difficult time getting a job. My friends with degrees have had just as difficult time finding a job. The job market is tight right now and basically no matter what's on your resume it's going to be hard to find a job.
However, if you know someone in the company at the very least you will get an interview (try sending resumes to various companies and see how many get back to you) which is a big step and more than likely you will get a good recommendation from someone the hiring person knows. I can't stress the personal reference bit enough. All the jobs I've gotten comes from knowing someone in the company (except the bookstore job but that was not computer-related and only $7.25 an hour).
So, my suggestion: contact everyone you've previously worked with and find out where they're working. Ask them if the company is hiring and even if they aren't contact them again in a few months. Things change quite quickly in the job market.
Finally, good luck and I suggest at some point you get a degree anyway. Pay scales are often based on degrees. I plan to get mine starting next year.
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Jump in and get yourself a small degree (like InfoSystems in the Business College). Most business courses (if not all) are probably available at night school or saturdays/weekends. Not only this, but most companies pay for your school if you do well.
After about 5-10 years on the job, school no longer matters (if you don't have a degree), only experience matters.
As a side note, I'm a firm believer in college educations. I'd be very hard pressed to hire someone without a degree. And in an economical drought of the IT industries, a CS degree won't get you far if you are up against good CompEng canidates (with similar experience, of course).
If you are geared more towards management, go ahead and try to grab an MBA while you are used to going to school, and you should be set and well paid for the next 5-10 years (MBA's usually give you a jump on pay your first 5-10 years).
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
There's a lot of promise in these online degree programs -- they may bring knowledge and opportunity to people who, due to a variety of circumstances, wouldn't otherwise have them. Ideally, they could be a great democratizing force in education.
... this is where the learning really happens, and this is the real value of a degree.
That said, an online education is absolutely no substitute. In the very best online program, you'll still get to work with top-notch instructors in a well-designed curriculum.
However, the single most important thing -- by far -- about undergraduate education is your peers. Textbooks are OK, classes are good, professors are wonderful -- but nothing matters so much as directly sharing that environment with other students. Meeting other students, challenging each other, working side by side and together on problems, everybody chipping in for a pizza at 2 AM
A degree isn't really about knowledge; it's about cultivating an adaptable mind, and becoming a good problem solver and good communicator who can work with others. That's one of the reasons why there's often little correlation between peoples' majors and their ultimate professional fields. That's why so the majority of job descriptions don't say "college degree in X", but simply say "college degree".
Yes, online communities exist (e.g. this), and yes, one can form a peer group there. But for education, there is no substitute for face-to-face immersion.
(My epsilon cents.)
I've always been of the opinion that learning is a contact sport. Meaning that accredited or not you are not going to get as much out of an online course as a real university program.
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That being said there are legit practical reasons to go online but I think the point still stands that often it is not just the material but the other people in the class. A traditional classroom broadens the scope of the education, allows for more interaction and therefore responsiveness, and is in general more usefull. I realize you are asking specifically about technology degrees but again I think the point is still relevant
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The key here is that a traditional classroom has advantages that an online setting cannot begin to eumulate.
I'm currently going through the UofP program. I have a 2 year degree (from a long long time ago) and recognize that while this isn't MIT it is a degree. My take on it is that it may help keep my resume from being thrown out when the job requires a BS of some sort. I figure that there are front end people (you might even call them human resources) that look at a resume for buzzwords and key stuff (one of them being a degree) and chuck the ones that don't have them.
That said this isn't easier than going to class, they do pile on the work so beware that it's not something that you can do over lunch...
Not necessary perhaps, but it certainly helps:
Interviewer: It says here you invented the turing machine.
You: Hire me, and you can patent it.
Free Java games for your phone: Tontie, Sokoban
I go to a commuter college and don't feel like it's a real college experience. Sure I'll have a degree from a decent state school when I'm done but I don't have the dorm experience. Some might argue that I'm ahead of the game there but I feel like I missed out. I definately notice a difference in alumni spirit between my school and say a school like Umass Amhearst. Most of my peers I won't miss when I'm gone because they're more like coworkers. We never had the late night bonding/speakers-out-the-window kegger. We share no particular intimacy that comes from close quarters living. Again some may argue that I'm ahead of the game further still.
I do have a more independant method of problem solving. I have more science and computer toys and reference books at my home because the library isn't a walk across the quad. But every step of the way has been something of a struggle having to figure things out myself b/c I can't ask someone down the hall.
Now multiply what I've said by a factor of 10 as you won't know who your peers are in an online class. You won't even have the kind of social life a night school student gets. I don't mean social life as in party. I've learned a lot working through problems with my peers, some problems cannot be solved on your own.
You may think that the social aspect isn't important. It's not if you're trying to get a technical degree in as little time as possible. In which case as an employer I'd probably lump you in with the Devry Tech grads. Not someone who's earned a BS Degree. If I was hiring I'd want someone who can work out problems with a group.
Having earned my BS (I graduate in 8 weeks) I know that most kids who can't work out problems together don't graduate with honors, many don't graduate at all. In other words the BS Degree represents a certain measureable amount of technical skill as well as implies a grasp of certain intangeble skills.
I had a career out of highschool before I decided I wanted a college degree. It was weird at first but it got better. I'm 32 now I don't look, feel or act it. I think it's from being around 20 year olds all day long. This has turned out to be a longer rant than I intended but I guess my bottom line is you're better off biting the bullet and living in poverty for 4 years and get the traditional degree.
I've hit Karma 50 and gotten a Score:5, Troll... I win!
Not having finished my degree yet has certainly held me back in more than one job. I'm a network admin with a strong *nix and NT background, but even with certification from Cisco, it is difficult to progress. One can always land a job based on what you know, and how well you present yourself in the interview, but my experience so far has shown repeatedly that the lack of degree will dampen your chances of rising beyond the daily grind. I work for a large utility now as the prime network admin for my department, but I will not be able to make the leap into management without a degree. My advice to anyone who jumped into the IT business too early (for whatever reason) is to make the time to get the degree from a respectable establishment. It'll cut into your personal time and, in my case, family time, but the ends will justify the means. No one really wants to retire a packet-jockey. Certainly not me. Thus I am making the economic and social sacrifices to get my degree. Even if it takes years, it's worth it.
Ludicrous tuition. Online learning should be cheap. University of Phoenix is silly expensive, especially for out-of-country types (Canadians like me).
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Let's not stir that bag of worms...
We've missed you terribly!
I'm studying Computer and Information Science (Unix, database theory, networking, C++) at the University of Maryland University College. All my classes are online, only proctored final exams; it's fully accredited through UM, and it offers credit for OJT "experiential learning." Cost: same as state U. I think I've learned more doing it online because instead of wasting time in lecture halls, I'm hacking away at my computer(s) doing some pretty heavy-duty programming, sysadmin, database design, etc. Hands-on learning beats boring profs any day, and I don't have to worry about wedging classes in between my full-time job and my 2+ hour commute. (I'm counting on my BS, 20 years of being an end-user, and a little help from a mentor to break into the field.)
From a personal perspective I'd say experience counts more than qualifications as employers like to see that you've actually had experience of doing the job they'll be hiring you for. Mind you with hiring being outsourced so much these days to HR companies which aren't as savvy about experience or job descriptions being written by a committe where things like "6 years experience of Windows 2000" required then more qualifications than the next applicant helps you move up the shortlist for interview. Mind you - you still have to get past the interview.
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No, I think the BS you already have will do nicely. "IT consultant" my ass.
As someone who found a very good paying job in IT at the age of 16 (and graduated from high-school early) let me give you some advice.
Forget about the IT consulting for now unless you can do it part time, and spend the next 4-6 years in college.
I'm now 29, married with a 2 year old and working very hard to get a degree (ie. up all night doing homework). Not having the degree hasn't prevented me from getting a good paying job, but I know I could have done better with the degree. At this point in my career I don't think I can progress much more without it. I've sort of hit the "no degree ceiling".
When I was your age I thought "who needs a degree when people are willing to pay me this much without it". Don't give in to that reasoning, it's short term thinking. I don't care how smart you are, a degree is a must. You might not miss it 5 years from now, but I know you will wish you had gotten it 10 or 15 years from now if you don't. If for no other reason, because 90% of those you will be competing with for salary and jobs will have it.
I don't care if you have to get a loan and live poorly for the next few years, it will be worth it!
Here's the problem, often time the media or the news portrays a sort of lone genius that doesn't need to go to college and gets a great job.
This may have been possible before the internet boom, due to a lack in college educated cs people, and the knowledge difference between those with a highschool education and those with a college wasn't that great. Such is not the case now.
You'll be competing against those with bachelors and masters, and you won't have as much to offer the company. Even if you know worlds more than a particular college educated person, the piece of paper they hold is more valuable. Most managers are held accountable for the people they higher, and that diploma acts as insurance.
Also, if you do get a job with the company, you'll not be able to rise above grunt coder or lower management. Those are skills taught in college, that can't be learned by just hacking code.
I don't care what you call it. DeVry is still a technical school. However you are correct in that it is better then nothing.
You don't deserve to loose karma but man I'm trolling. There goes my 50.
I've hit Karma 50 and gotten a Score:5, Troll... I win!
re: the need for a degree at all --
I graduated with a degree in Chinese literature (minor in CS), and I had no problems getting offers from selective companies (for very technical positions). You're much more than your IT skills -- you might want to round yourself out (you'll have IT jobs on the side, or during summer) or learn about something new. The money/career will probably be there when you're done, if that's what you're looking for.
Don't sell yourself short, and remember to keep your head about you -- it's not all about money.
there is no thing
what else could you want?
"As an IT consultant at the age of 18..." I open myself up for ridicule the moment I say that.
I'm currently doing a BSIT at UoP while working for a major government contractor. UoP is fully accredited. My employer recognizes them as a legitimate university and is happy to pay for the courses.
While I'm not sure that the education is as rigorous as I'd like, the degree is legit and there's nothing to stop me from going to the U of Washington campus to take more math and such. While the credits are more expensive, individually at UoP ($400 per credit vs. $300 per credit at U of Washington), UoP recognized twice as many of my previous college credits, which means I'll complete my degree nearly two years earlier than if I'd gone the other route.
Sad fact is that if you're working for a major corporation, particularly in the government sector, the degree's important. Not only is there a certain status attached to your level of education, but many companies have internal rules governing rate of pay and advancement level limits based on degree. Online education is becoming more and more acceptable and companies are beginning to realize that it is a real education, as opposed to a diploma mill. The bottom line for me is: It doesn't matter where that education comes from; what I get out of it is entirely up to me.
You don't have time to get in to town? Are you an IT consultant for a Mom and Pop operation? Sounds to me like you're just a computer person. Get a degree.
It was absolutely pathetic.
The teacher didn't know what she was teaching.
The teacher handed out exams that had blatant errors (do you really want me to write out the results of a 100 Million Cartesian product?!?)
The teacher believed the book when it recommended human-readable primary keys! (ie: US-AZ-24-90 Made in the US, in Arizona, and for Trucks (24)... that's what unique columns are for. It's a mess when the plant moves to Mexico... and you know it will).
The teacher couldn't answer questions. (In Access, can you select the Count(*)? [Yes: It allows you to return counts including null fields, and is much faster])
The book actually gave different answers for the same question, exemplified when we had an open book exam. Everyone took the answer from the chapter we were on... the teacher graded on the answer 5 chapters later.
We were forced to use a data modeling program that no one had ever heard of, and were not allowed to use, oh, Visio.
By the end of the class, fellow students twice my age were asking me the questions, and ignoring her answers.
I wrote a letter describing the situation in much more political terms, CC: to everyone all the way up to President, and never received a response.
All you do at UoP is purchase a degree. You almost can't fail. You get A's almost without trying. (of course you have to do the simplistic work)
While I don't claim to know everything, I was a Sr. Developer/Analyst consulting at Best Western, and have since worked for a couple more top-100 companies.
What I will be doing next is going to evening/distance learning courses offered by a reputable university. Not only will it have good name recognition, it's cheaper, and more taxing on the mind (which is why you get education: otherwise, buy your degree from UoP and prove it in your interview).
Posting anonymously so they can't sue Slashdot for who I am... Even those these are just my opinions.
If you only want to hold down a sys admin job or maybe some types of programming (e-commerce stuff), then you probably don't need a degree. A certification and maybe a 2yr is plenty. OTOH, if you want to get into lower-level programming such as embedded programming, drivers, or other OS level then a BS is a minimum. If you want to work for a military contractor, a BS is required. If you want to get into an type of research you really need a MS and probably a PhD.
what if your peers can't even install the jdk on windows??.. ok.. i'm bitter.. but that is freakin lame in my opinion
I like online learning. I went to Texas A&M fresh out of a high school of 2000. I was a CE major, but as lower division I couldn't take any computer classes - just core engineering classes like chemistry, math, etc. It was like pulling teeth to even get into a low level C programming class, but I did first semester.
:(
:)
Due to lots of factors, I ended up leaving after a year with maybe 15 credits and like a 2.0 average. I wasn't prepared to handle that large of a school, and being drilled with classes that didn't interest me at the time. I lived off campus so I made no friends, which depending on your view that might not be so bad. But for me that kinda sucked. Combine in a few emotional factors and I was seeing a shrink before the first semester was over
Anyway, I moved back home and enrolled at a community college about 45 minutes away. It wasn't feasible to drive 1.5 hours each day for school so I started taking distance ed classes from them - things like government, history, accounting, sociology...all they offered. After last semester, and enrolling in 2 other colleges distance ed programs to take 2 classes, I got enough credits for an associate's degree of general studies! I know that doesn't sound like much, but it's nice to know I accomplished something. I'll get the degree conferred next month.
But I'm rambling. The distance ed programs allowed me to structure things to my liking. I can do my homework on my own time, post to my discussions at a good time, email my teachers whenever, etc. I have learned just as much through the Internet readings, the textbooks, or video tapes as I would have at Texas A&M. Actually, I've learned more because with distance ed I "attend" my class, talk to my teacher, and do the work - things I didn't do at A&M.
Another benefit is that I can be wherever I want to be. Right now, I'm living in Ontario to be with my girlfriend, but I'm a full time (13 hrs) student in Texas. Cool, eh? I'm looking at a computer security program here for the Fall, and it's offered distance too. I'l probally enroll because I could stay here on a student visa, but also go back home whenever I wanted to and not fall behind in school. I want to get a BS too. I think for that I'm going to have to attend classes because upper level computer classes aren't taught distance at home. But I can do that, I hope
University generally is of benefit. A number of the people that I work with didn't go to university and it shows. Occasionally there is an individual whos knowledge and general interests take them down similiar paths to the structured learning that is practiced in most tertary institutions however they are very rare. Given a choice of employing people would generally employ someone with a degree. Some university have a practical focus and others tend more towards theory. Much to my surprise I have found that the theoretical knowledge has lasted really well and the practical stuff was a complete waste of time. (my opinion was different when I was first trying to get a job)
I teach at UOPhx, Online (OL) and Onground (OG). The OL program has as much or more interaction as the OG. It runs through newsgroups, so anyone in any timezone can participate. Students must participate on 5/7 days, and are graded on the substantiveness of that participation. As all must participate, and say something meaningful that moves the class along and expands its learning, I find better overall class participation than in OG classes. Reserved students speak up, those who are thoughtful but want time to reflect on their comments before posting them have it, those who simply say "I agree" but add nothing new don't earn points, etc. A large part of the grade (usually 30-40%)is based on one's Learning Team (3-4 students) assignments. There is as much team collaboration OL as OG. OL teams tend to form by timezone (just as OG teams do by who lives/works nearby), so they can all be online at the same time, or use instant messaging or phone calls. The out-of-newsgroup communication is best reserved for logistics of planning out a project, as all work product must go into the newsgroup to get participation points. It's amazing to see how students form new learning teams (which they have to do for each class, which lasts 5 weeks undergrad, 6 weeks graduate--intense format). This is an accelerated program, with no time to waste, so students get right to it. One other thing--students must be 23 and employed, average is 34, so everyone has lots of job experience to bring to the table. In fact, that's one of the goals of most courses: to relate the learning to practical experience. Each online program has its own format. Many are simply self-paced, with no interaction except for submitting papers to the instructor. ###
Sorry for the run-on text. I'm not a technical person, just happened to this site through a link and wanted to respond re online learning at UOPhx.
Mistakenly hit submit, not preview, or I would have figured out the selection box and put the response in plain text.
Thanks for your understanding. I'll post the first message again, properly, as I'd like to hear your responses.
I teach at UOPhx, Online (OL) and Onground (OG). The OL program has as much or more interaction as the OG. It runs through newsgroups, so anyone in any timezone can participate.
Students must participate on 5/7 days, and are graded on the substantiveness of that participation. As all must participate, and say something meaningful that moves the class along and expands its learning, I find better overall class participation than in OG classes. Reserved students speak up, those who are thoughtful but want time to reflect on their comments before posting them have it, those who simply say "I agree" but add nothing new don't earn points, etc.
A large part of the grade (usually 30-40%)is based on one's Learning Team (3-4 students) assignments. There is as much team collaboration OL as OG. OL teams tend to form by timezone (just as OG teams do by who lives/works nearby), so they can all be online at the same time, or use instant messaging or phone calls. The out-of-newsgroup communication is best reserved for logistics of planning out a project, as all work product must go into the newsgroup to get participation points.
It's amazing to see how students form new learning teams (which they have to do for each class, which lasts 5 weeks undergrad, 6 weeks graduate--intense format). This is an accelerated program, with no time to waste, so students get right to it.
One other thing--students must be 23 and employed, average is 34, so everyone has lots of job experience to bring to the table. In fact, that's one of the goals of most courses: to relate the learning to practical experience. Each online program has its own format. Many are simply self-paced, with no interaction except for submitting papers to the instructor.
(No, I don't teach in the technology programs.)###