RedHat 7.3 beta (skipjack) is out

Just saw in Red Hat's FTP's - Redhat 7.3 (codename:skipjack) is available for download. There aren't lots of changes there, but you'll find that RedHat 7.3 comes with KDE 3.0 (rc3 is on this beta), you'll need to remove the Ximian Gnome before upgrade, and in general - read the release notes before testing this release. As always, don't try it on your main Linux partition, and use the mirrors. Annoucment is here (thanks to Linux Weekly News)

Comments

X.3 ??

[neo8750]

I always thought Red Hat did X.0 X.1 and then X.2 before going to back to X.0. Have they always released a X.3 ?

Re:X.3 ??

[dattaway]

This 7.3 is good. I wanted to see a more refined 7.2 before a new approach was reborn. This is one step toward perfection before they release a new offspring.

Re:X.3 ??

[dytin]

Actually, in the release notes, it says that this distribution is not 7.3, but actually 7.2.92

Re:X.3 ??

[wray]

Since the 4.0, release RedHat has done a .0 -> .1 -> .2 -> .0 release. I cannot comment officially on how this happened, but I was watching Rawhide, and up until about 3 weeks ago, RedHat had gcc 3.1 as their primary/only compiler, then all of the sudden, they reverted back to a gcc-2.96 and gcc 3.0.4 combo. I assume this was the point where they decided to release a 7.3 instead of an 8.0. Perhaps it had to do with the maturity of the 3.1 compiler, perhaps something else, but it is surely a deviation from their established timeline.

As a sidenote, though I am very excited about gcc 3.1 which branched on Feb 28, I think that RedHat's move is a good one. They can use this time to perhaps plan an 8.0 release that will support x86-64 (Hammer) architecture.

Re:X.3 ??

[bero-rh]

First of all, the article is bogus, we don't preannounce releases, the next release might be called 7.3, 8.0, 15.1, Linux XP or anything else.

Second, there's no strict rule on how many versions of a major release we do.
The major number is determined by changes in binary compatibility, so it will usually be increased when switching to a major new glibc or a binary incompatible gcc.

Re:X.3 ??

[jmorris42]

Ok, but PLEASE pass the word upline to make it a .3! RedHat 4.2 was rock solid, 5.2 was rock solid and so was 6.2. Haven't met anyone who thinks 7.2 is stable yet. Just yesterday I logged onto my laptop and had no icons along the left. Signed out and back on and they came back. All of the fifty some odd boxes that mere mortals use here on my site are still running 6.2 because of odd crap like that.

I had hoped to move them from 6.2 to 7.2 but it still isn't ready for end users, even with an errata CD that is fast approaching a 2 disc set. It is common knowledge that that anything labeled .0 is to be avoided on production machines so doing an 8.0 release would mean we would have to keep patching up 6.2 for another year.

Re:X.3 ??

[LadyLucky]

Actually, in the release notes, it says that this distribution is not 7.3, but actually 7.2.92

Maybe they rounded it up.

"Skipjack"? Noooo!!

[kcbrown]

It's a plot by the NSA to eavesdrop on everyone's encrypted communications! Don't buy it!!

Oh, wait, this is Skipjack the distribution, not Skipjack the algorithm. Never mind...

...Unless RedHat is giving us a hint that the NSA had some "influence" on this distribution...

Oh, my, in my paranoia I just don't know what to do!

:-)

Size?

[nabnerd]

does anyone know what size and install of 7.3 will be? 7.2 was over 1.3GB with everything i needed.

~nab

Re:"Skipjack"? Noooo!!

[defile]

Like any of their other codenames were at all relevant? Perhaps they have ties to codebreaking in WW2? (Enigma) Or maybe South Park? (Cartman)

size=ease of use

[oo7tushar]

I find it particularly disturbing that Red Hat is growing "exponentially" in size. I'm pretty sure that they don't have to include all the options but they don't make it easy to disable them.
Now many of you may jump on the bandwagon and say "Wait, Linux is not meant to be easy". I'll retort by saying: Red Hat should be easy. If you're going to target users with a desktop application then you don't make things harder. Desktops were invented to make things easier or more efficient to use.
So it seems that if they do make it bigger, perhaps they should make it easier?
size=ease of use

Re:size=ease of use

[WildBeast]

Sure but RedHat's market isn't the desktop. It's all about the server side for them. If RedHat was targeting the desktop, there CEO wouldn't have said that Linux will not make it on the desktop.

You want a desktop distribution? Try Mandrake. A little bloated but pretty good.

Re:size=ease of use

[Jagasian]

SuSe is a more polished and solid desktop Linux than Mandrake. Personally, I prefer more work upfront for ease of system care later on, so I use Debian. Installing Debian is more involved than other distros, but once you get everything setup correctly, you are done until you need to build a whole new computer. Upgrading Debian works, and is trivially easy, unlike other distro upgrades.

Re:size=ease of use

[searleb]

Further more, RedHat has determined that the desktop is not profitable. In fact, even server side linux is not really profitable, but desktop linux is much worse. The only reason (money wise) to release a desktop version is for name recognition. In this respect, Mandrake walks a very dangerous line, but I expect them to push a server solution shortly after they finish their marketing.

Re:size=ease of use

[johnnyb]

Its interesting how its ok to criticize Winblow$ for bloatware but say the same for precious Linux and you get branded a troll.

**********

Except you have to look at what you get on a Windows install - pretty much nothing. Most users have to buy hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of software to run on their computers. With RH, it's just installed w/ the OS. That's not bloat (necessarily), that's functionality.

Re:size=ease of use

[Enahs]

Or Libranet. I know, I know; it's Debian, so why not use Debian? There were only one or two spots where I really had to be all that clueful during the installation, but other than that, it was an easy install and easy-to-use. A nice balance of "you must learn" regular features and "duh I'm lost" hand-holding features.

Oh, and it's Potato with an actual set of current, working KDE packages. :-P

Re:size=ease of use

[HiThere]

Easy. Just install BlackBox and don't install either KDE or Gnome. Your size requirements will shrink dramatically.

I generally find it easy to disable lots of options. Sometimes enough of them that I start the install over from scratch to save time. Still, I have to admit that I haven't ever tried to install without either Gnome or KDE. So perhaps I'm wrong.

In that case you need to make use of:
rpm -e gn*
or
rpm -e kd*
(seriously, you should be sure about which packages you are uninstalling, but if you want to live without either KDE or Gnome, then this had better be a superfluous warning!)

KDE3

[CanadaDave]

That's nice that they have KDE3. I wish Mandrake had slowed down their 8.2 schedule so that KDE3 final could be included. But they don't like changing release dates, so I can wait.

What are the cool new features included in 7.3? I guess it's mostly a bug fix release, but their must be some changes. Any improvements to the Redhat configuration tools? I've always liked Redhat better in general, I'm not sure why...but I liked Mandrakes drak tools so much, I switched to MDK.

Re:KDE3

[jd142]

As I understand it, Mandrake has been keeping pace with the qt libraries. The next version will be 9.0 and use qt 3 and kde 3. The reason for putting out 8.2 was to sort of wrap up a lot of patches and some new control tools.

Personally, I think it was a way to really stress test the control center and new wizard features before blowing everyone out of the water with 9. If you look at the verion numbers, a lot of the Mandrake controls are right around 1. The ones I remember were at .96 or so. My guess is they will be version 1.0 with 9.0. Just a guess though.

Re:KDE3

[phutureboy]

Hope it works, because Mandrake is our last, best hope to break the MS stranglehold on the desktop...

Dunno about that... I'm anxious to see what the initial release of Xandros is like.

Re:KDE3

[__past__]

So easy to use that it almost doesn't feel like linux =)

Hey, if you say it like this, it almost sounds like a good thing!

However, I wonder why I would want to use Linux if the only argument is that it doesn't feel like Linux. If I would like Windows better, guess what, I'd use it.

But actually, I like Unix - I like a system that is inherently open and invites me to play with it, to actually understand what it does, to make it my system.

Ah well, you know the saying: "Linux is for people who don't like windows..."

Will the essentials be fixed?

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder if the basic tools are OK in this distribution. I've had to recompile stuff from RH6.2 to 7.2 because there has been so much broken in 7.x.

Take grep for example - don't you think this is essential? Try this:

Put some test text with scandinavic letters into text file, and try to grep it:
grep -i "[Ä]" test.txt

Hey presto - core dump. (At least this was the case with RH71)

grep -i "[dhjklmnprstv][aeiouyÄÖ][dhjklmnprstv]ai" test.txt

And nothing happens even if you would have text that doesn't match.

I can live with it, but it makes one rather pissed when trying to do some scripting.

And lets not forget the dhcpd, which simply doesn't seem to fire up correctly when started for one network interface in machine where there is many. Luckily dhcpd from rh62 works like charm.

Re:Will the essentials be fixed?

[Anonymous Coward]

From the man page:

BUGS
Email bug reports to bug-gnu-utils@gnu.org. Be sure to
include the word "grep" somewhere in the "Subject:" field.

Large repetition counts in the {m,n} construct may cause
grep to use lots of memory. In addition, certain other
obscure regular expressions require exponential time and
space, and may cause grep to run out of memory.

Backreferences are very slow, and may require exponential
time.

Have you mailed in your bugs?
Or better still - try to fix it yourself.

Re:Will the essentials be fixed?

[jfedor]

Put some test text with scandinavic letters into text file, and try to grep it:
grep -i "[Ä]" test.txt

Hey presto - core dump. (At least this was the case with RH71)


Sorry, no core dump on my systems (RH7.1 and 7.2).


grep -i "[dhjklmnprstv][aeiouyÄÖ][dhjklmnprstv]ai" test.txt

And nothing happens even if you would have text that doesn't match.


Works for me.

(what you meant was "text that does match", I take it)

-jfedor

Re:Will the essentials be fixed?

[bero-rh]

I can't reproduce this on any of our boxes, including 7.1, 7.2 and current beta installations.

A backtrace submitted to Bugzilla helps getting things fixed - how are we supposed to fix something we don't even know breaks for you? (Chances are this is a very weird local setup problem)

Re:Will the essentials be fixed?

[Dr. Awktagon]

I use foreign chars a lot in text files and in MySQL databases and have never had any problems. Check your environment variables, your i18n and l10n files (wherever they are) and if that doesn't help try the rawhide grep. (I'm using grep-2.4.2-5 fwiw).

Also I believe there are other goofy things like character equivalence classes for foreign characters that might be of use, for instance to find all "A"'s accented or not....read the locale and regexp man pages etc.

Re:Will the essentials be fixed?

[Nailer]

And lets not forget the dhcpd, which simply doesn't seem to fire up correctly when started for one network interface in machine where there is many. Luckily dhcpd from rh62 works like charm.

I have a multihomed DHCP server with DHCP on a specific interface using RH 7.2. It works fine.

The problem you might be experiencing is the lack of a particular directory (I forget its name). But you can see the name of the directory if you do
/etc/init.d/dhcpd start
rather than
service dhcpd start
create the directory and things will be fine. Tailing the log file will also preovide answers if your DHCP server is not starting uo for other reasons.

No Webmin!

[mlg9000]

Linuxconf breaks things. Redhat was right to take it out. The only problem is that they haven't really replaced it with anything. What they should include instead is Webmin. It might not have a command line interface but do you really need that functionality for a typical Redhat install? In my opinion it's by far the best Linux config tool around.

Re:No Webmin!

[bero-rh]

What they should include instead is Webmin

Not in the base OS.
Webmin is a nice, user friendly tool, but it's code is horrible (at least to people who don't breathe perl instead of air ;) ) and we usually don't ship stuff we can't support well.

Webmin is included on the almost-unsupported extra CD found in European boxes (bandwidth is very expensive in most European countries, so including another CD with stuff you could just download makes sense in the European box).

Re:No Webmin!

[damiam]

It might not have a command line interface

Course it does:

$ lynx localhost:10000

Re:No Webmin!

[HiThere]

This disk makes sense to others, too. Not all of my computers even have an internet connection. Now I could do my own re-packaging (and for things that are new this is obviously necessary), but there should be an optional CD that contains those extra tools that just aren't deemed worthy of support.

E.g., I've been missing GNAT recently. I don't use it often, but sometimes it's quite useful. (I prefer Ada to C. It's easier to understand and maintain, though it's harder to do originally.) I understand that it was originally intented to go into gcc 3.0, but my understanding is that it didn't make the cut (problems with timeing or something). And it would be nice if you included SmallEiffel. Perhaps Sather.

Perhaps "Misc. Unsupported Compilers, Interpreters, Editors, etc." could be a separate product, but it would be nice to have. It would help me keep the various computers in sync.

KDE 3.0 rc3

[AntiNorm]

Was Mandrake 8.2 supposed to come with this as well? I seem to recall reading somewhere that it (mdk 8.2) had both KDE 2.x and 3.0rc3 available. But I can't find 3.0rc3 anywhere on it.

Re:KDE 3.0 rc3

[thue]

on Mandrakeforum tom says: Update Mar 20, 2002: It looks like KDE 3.0 RC2 is not included in Mandrake Linux 8.2. My apologies for any confusion my contrary statement in this article might have caused.

Where is CUPS?

[lessthan0]

I stopped using Red Hat circa 7.1 because of their very broken print system. I checked the CHANGELOG and found no reference to CUPS. Why the hell don't they start including CUPS like every other major distro? It is the best print system out there for *nix IMHO.

Oh well, life is good with SuSE so that's where I'll stay.

Re:Where is CUPS?

[Sc00ter]

Why don't you just go install cups? Why must you not use something just because it doesn't come with the dist? I agree, CUPS rocks, and I use it, on my RH7.2 box.

Re:Where is CUPS?

[nconway]

From the release notes linked to in the article:

Currently, Red Hat Linux offers Sendmail and Postfix as two Mail Transport Agent (MTA) alternatives. For print daemon alternatives, the choices are LPRng and CUPS. The configurations for LPRng and CUPS are completely separate. If you switch from one printing system to another, you will have to reconfigure your printers.

Re:Where is CUPS?

[bero-rh]

CUPS 1.1.14 is included, and Qt, KDE and wine are compiled with libcups support.

Re:Where is CUPS?

[bero-rh]

I agree that CUPS is a better tool (that's why it was added in this release, and Qt, KDE and other applications have been compiled with libcups support), but LPRng isn't as bad as you make it sound.

One of the reasons to keep it for now is that it's more compatible with legacy systems, so someone upgrading from Solaris or HP/UX to Linux will find something familiar.

Re:Where is CUPS?

[garcia]

this is a common problem w/the up and coming Linux users and goes to show why distributions like Mandrake continue to exist even when *I* (being of middle ages Linux) can't stand bloated shit.

Users feel that everything should come standard w/each distribution. Just b/c a distrib is not using X does NOT mean its broken. In fact RH is known for its excellent testing.

Stop being so lazy. Sheesh.

The youngins just need to learn ;)

Re:Where is CUPS?

[HeUnique]

So what do you do when you need to connect to a very high end printers like Tektronix (with the wax), HP Office Jet and other printers? I don't see any support with LPRng to those printers - and if I do see something - it's just the bare bones basic stuff...

At least with CUPS I can buy the printer driver from them (or get the PPD), and with LPRng what can I do? beg to the vendor for the specs and hire some hacker to learn LPRng and hack a driver? be serious...

Re:Where is CUPS?

[garcia]

I still don't think that CUPS printing is as good as Windows printing. In fact, in repeated tests on my machine CUPS looks like SHIT when printing on photo paper compared w/printing from a Windows machine on the network.

Thus, it isn't a big deal. Don't waste your money on a big HP printer, you will be sorely disappointed.

Re:Where is CUPS?

[bero-rh]

Actually most of the problems you're seeing don't have anything to do with the spooler you use - in fact, both LPRng and CUPS use ghostscript to talk to the printer [which actually does toe DPI and bi-directional things you're complaining about].

LPRng is hard to set up correctly (you apparently didn't), but once you did, it's not that bad.

I agree that CUPS is better though.

Re:Where is CUPS?

[bero-rh]

Are there any concrete benefits [of CUPS]?

Yes. Off the top of my head:

• Support IPP (Internet Printing Protocol) -> autodetection of network printers
• Support for PPD files -> better out-of-the-box support for many printers
• Support for tray selection and other advanced features LPRng supports only through ugly hacks
• Unified way for applications to get a list of available printers etc (libcups) - with lpr/LPRng, every application needs to write its own printcap parser
• Better supported by KDE

Re:Where is CUPS?

[yesthatguy]

CUPS is here. I'm running Skipjack right now, and using CUPS 1.1.14. I had 1.1.10 installed fine on 7.2 using packages from cups.org, but these packages came with the install. As far as I can tell, CUPS is integrated pretty seamlessly with the KDE print interface and the Foomatic stuff that they're using now. CUPS wasn't enabled by default, but it was just a matter of setting it to start automatically.

Re:Where is CUPS?

[bero-rh]

If you have an HP printer, get hpijs. It's at least as good as Windoze printing.

It's included in Skipjack, now that it's under a sane license (its old license was preventing its inclusion in earlier releases).

gcc3?

[nd]

Anyone else notice that there are no longer gcc3 packages included (as with RH 7.2, although it was optional).

Skipjack includes only an updated version of 2.96.

Re:gcc3?

[bero-rh]

The gcc3 packages are likely to return for the final, once a final decision on 3.0.4 vs 3.1 has been made.

Re:gcc3?

[BlowCat]

Why wait just because of one package? It is not nearly as important as the kernel of gcc (without 3) which is used to build the system. As another poster noticed, even KDE was updated to another major release (1.x to 2.x) in RedHat 7.1, and gcc3 is way more optional that KDE, yet the update would be (in the worse case) in the second number from 3.0.x included in RedHat 7.2 to 3.1 in RedHat 7.3.

Of course if you think that gcc3 will be the default compiler on RedHat 7.3 then I'm sorry, I should have ignored your comment.

Re:Linuxconf

[Sc00ter]

Why don't you look at the /etc/mail files in your 6.2 install?

Or go and install linuxconf, just because RH doesn't come with you can still get it. Or try another package like webmin or something similar.

Re:Linuxconf

[Sc00ter]

Why don't you just go get it and install it:

rpm -ivh ftp://rpmfind.net/linux/redhat/7.2/en/os/i386/RedH at/RPMS/linuxconf-1.25r7-3.i386.rpm

I can't help but wonder...

[wedg]

...if this is a reply to Mandrake's 8.2 release? I mean, Mandrake offers everything RedHat does, and more, in my opinion. Maybe they're worried about losing their chunk of the biz.

Maybe not.

Re:I can't help but wonder...

[bero-rh]

It isn't.
It doesn't work the "Oh, we need to push a new release out of the door, let's call the current rawhide a beta!" way.

There is a QA cycle even for beta releases to make sure people who aren't asking for it (by using rawhide) aren't getting completely broken stuff.

Re:I can't help but wonder...

[MBCook]

As far as I'm concerned, they are two different OSes. I think that Mandrake is a great distro, and it makes one hell of a desktop. RedHat, IMHO isn't a terribly user friendly desktop. On the other hand, RedHat is a great server OS, while Mandrake is good. Of course, this is based on defaults/etc. Both can be configured to do anything.

I had major problems with RH 7.x in the past, which is why I went on a distro hunt months ago. Now i've got debian and untill I can "apt-get install redhat", I think I'll be sticking ;)

Re:I can't help but wonder...

[wedg]

But really, as far as server OSes are concerned, should we even be thinking about the default install? Unless the default install comes so good you don't have to change a thing, you're going to end up getting your hands into the configuration of pretty much everything.

And if you need to *rely* on the default install for your server, that's a whole 'nother story.

Re:I can't help but wonder...

[wedg]

They do it for processors. Why not for OSes?

How do I upgrade?

[jfedor]

From the release notes:

The standalone upgrade mode (typing linux upgrade at the boot prompt) is no longer supported.

So how do I upgrade?

-jfedor

Re:How do I upgrade?

[bero-rh]

You boot in normal install mode and then select "Upgrade" when it prompts you for installation type.

The choice has been moved from the boot loader to the {T,G}UI.

Re:System?

[coats]

What kind of computer would I need to run Linux 7.3 and X-Windows and KDE...

• Linux: 386/16 with 1 MB RAM

• ... and X-Windows: 486/25 with 8 MB RAM, if you use a lightweight window manager like IceWM

• ... and KDE: P3/400 or better, with 32 MB RAM or better (and 64MB RAM is much better! :-)

How to remove Ximian Gnome ?

[motox]

Is there an automated and clean way to do it ?

Re:How to remove Ximian Gnome ?

[jfedor]

Did you try using Red Carpet?

("Get Software" from the "System" menu or just run "red-carpet" from the command line)

-jfedor

Re:How to remove Ximian Gnome ?

[HeUnique]

Umm, remind me how do you move parts which Microsoft is sticking to your throat lately - like umm... MSN messanger?

Oh yeah, you DO need to edit a file just to make it appear and then remove it... right... - and even then you'll need to run the XP CD to load this "setup" and remove it only from there...

Come on - removing ximian RPMS is 1 line:
rpm -e --nodeps `rpm -qa | grep ximian`

Re:How to remove Ximian Gnome ?

[prisoner-of-enigma]

Not to be bombastic or anything (or flaming for that matter), but if it's so easy to remove, why are a lot of people asking how to remove it? Is it unclear in the documentation for Ximian? Or is this just a case of people unfamiliar with Ximian/Gnome/Linux/etc.? I haven't used Ximian so I can't speak as to the ease or lack thereof for the installer.

Re:How to remove Ximian Gnome ?

[roystgnr]

Is there an automated and clean way to do it ?

No, because if you wanted to remove all of Ximian Gnome then you'd have to go reinstall all the Red Hat stuff like gtk+ and glib that Ximian makes versions of.

C'mon, if you're already planning to install the beta, you should have your important files backed up anyway, so just go wild. I didn't uninstall Ximian, I just clicked OK on a "we've detected 3rd party packages that may be broken in the upgrade" dialog box. Red Hat installed newer versions of some Ximian software, left software that Ximian had a newer version of untouched, and everything still seems to work.

Re:How to remove Ximian Gnome ?

[ceswiedler]

Oh, yeah, you know, you can fix PROBLEM_X with one command line:

/usr/x22/lib/bin fooprog -command"somethingorother" ls02 sk202 -a -w 3-2 e-d -s -ddd- -s akseod ddledldl

Just because YOU know how to do it doesn't mean it's easy.

Re:Linuxconf

[bolmyn]

I wonder if anybody still cares for browsing through second CD of RH 7.x?
Linuxconf is alive and kicking and in spite of some comments
it hardly breaks anything. Install gnome-linuxconf and
you have quite a nice GUI admin interface.

But hey, webmin is great too! :-)

Re:Linuxconf

[Sc00ter]

Either that or go to rpmfind.net, it's a great resource, as long as you use the right RPM for your dist. Just look for the pretty green ones for RH/Intel :)

What? No ISOs on RHN? Grrr.....

[weave]

I talked my boss into paying a few grand a year to redhat for their workgroup Redhat Network to 1) make my life easier and 2) to support the company and 3) priority download and ISO image downloads to paying customers.

So I gleefully logon to grab a set of beta ISOs and get some real value out of this subscription and what do I find as far as 7.3 beta goes? Jack. :-(

Come on Redhat...

When 7.3 final comes out, will it show up on rhn at the same time it goes on the public ftp site at least?

Re:What? No ISOs on RHN? Grrr.....

[bero-rh]

You misunderstood me. This is a beta for *whatever the next release will be called* (look at the official announcement. We don't preannounce version numbers.)

Re:What? No ISOs on RHN? Grrr.....

[turnerjh]

Due to popular demand, Skipjack ISOs are also available on Red Hat Network, just as other ISOs are (ie, subject to the same restrictions, meaning Paid Basic service or higher).

The URL is:
https://rhn.redhat.com/network/channel/download_is os.pxt

Sorry for the delay, folks. Enjoy the beta!

The next official release of Red Hat Linux will also be made available vial the above page on the day of release, under the same terms.

Re:What? No ISOs on RHN? Grrr.....

[augustz]

Ya, I went ahead and got basic service partly because of the "Instant ISO's". So imagine my surprise when the last beta never showed up, and when I went to check the instant ISO page there was nothing on there yet for this one either.

Let's suppose for a second that people who are paying monthly fees for support actually use Redhat, perhaps on a server farm even. And therefore, out of the universe of RedHat users, are probably going to be interested in doing some testing of the beta's as they come out.

I complained about this before, but it's good to see it on Slashdot.

The response I got was "Oh, wait. Pensacola is only in Beta, it cannot be downloaded through RHN." to quote the email.

Folks need to realize at least historically, those Instant downloads were a) actually not very fast at all, and b) didn't carry beta isos and c) might not actually be up until the rest of the world has gotten them and it's trivial to pull from a mirror.

I'm hoping this will change. It's simple to do, and folks paying are likely to appreciate it. And while I may think it's neat, telling your boss you couldn't download the RedHat beta from RedHat (who you pay thousands to) and instead had to download it from some server in Belgium is going to raise a few eyebrows.

Re:Distro size

[HeUnique]

it's actually 3 ISO's - the 3rd is half CD.

The rest ISO's are source code for the distribution.

Re:Distro size

[bero-rh]

The 4th and 5th CDs are source RPMs, so if you just want to give it a test run without looking at the code, you won't need them.

Re:X.X.XX ??

[bero-rh]

Usually, X.X is a release, and X.X.XX is a beta.

Re:old Gnome included

[bero-rh]

Why didn't they wait until Gnome 2.0 is out?

Nobody can foretell when this happens; chances are the current release plans will be delayed again or the 2.0 release will be as broken as some early 0.10 releases.

Also, since it totally breaks the API and most applications haven't been ported to the new API, staying with 1.x for a while has some additional reasons.

Re:Should delay 8.0

[HeUnique]

But KDE 3.0 IS there.. (the rc version)

Re:old Gnome included

[bero-rh]

Knowing RedHat, I would expect them to put the development version [of gnome 2.0] in the final release

That's certainly not going to happen. We don't do major upgrades to an important part of the distribution after a beta, and if you compare any beta versions of RHL with their subsequent release version, you'll notice we never did.

Re:Should delay 8.0

[Micah]

The things you mention don't have much to do with whether or not they upgrade the major number.

I agree it's good they're (apparently) doing a point release instead of 8.0, but for different reasons:

* GCC 3.1 isn't yet ready, but will be within a few months
* ditto glibc 2.3

Had they released 8.0 with the current gcc 2.96 and glibc 2.2, we'd likely be stuck with them for another couple years!

As it is, an 8.0 with those things, along with a new binary compatibility standard that should LAST a while, should be out this summer or early fall. It's win-win.

As for what you mentioned, KDE 3.0 *is* in this release. They upgraded from KDE 1.x to 2.x in Red Hat 7.1, so they can do that kind of thing in minor releases. Same with Mozilla and Gnome. Major releases are only for binary compatibility changes.

Re:Yes I know.

[bero-rh]

Try do that with Redhat

You need only one floppy to do a Red Hat ftp install. 8)

Get the image
here, boot it, and point the installer at ftp.redhat.com /pub/redhat/linux/beta/skipjack/en/ os/i386/

Re:What about..

[bero-rh]

Rawhide is the only truly e XP erimental release we make...

Re:"Skipjack"? Noooo!!

[kcbrown]

To the moderator who marked my posting "troll": I put the smiley in at the bottom because I wanted to make it obvious not to take the posting seriously. I guess I didn't do a good enough job. If there's anything else I could have done to make that clear, I'd certainly like to know about it...

Re:Should delay 8.0

[bero-rh]

Unless some miracle happens and KDE 3.0 is delayed by several weeks even though it works,
the released version will have KDE 3.0 final.

A beta release doesn't mean we don't upgrade anything... It just (usually) means we won't do any major upgrades (if KDE 2.2.2 were in the beta, seeing 3.0 in the final would be extremely unlikely).

Re:Distro size

[Isaac-Lew]

Look for a mirror (I would tell you which one I'm using, but I'm getting the isos at 455 KBytes/sec right now). My advice would be to check the more obscure ones.

Re:No GNOME 2.0?!?

[0x0d0a]

I really doubt it.

RH does a full blown QA. It takes a while to test any package that you're shipping, and GNOME 2.0 is a very large amount of software. They'd take months to QA GNOME 2.0.

GNOME 2.0 is definitely going to take another release.

Re:System?

[lkaos]

Linux: 386/16 with 1 MB RAM

The Linux boot sequence requires atleast 2MB of RAM because of the way it uncompresses itself. Somewhere I remember reading that it really needs atleast 4MB...

gcc 3.x

[Pr0xY]

i was just curious when the gcc in redhat will be updated to 3.x, now that the multiple inheritance issues seem to be solved in the latest version, what is holding things back?

Re:gcc 3.x

[bero-rh]

Mostly the fact that 3.0.x -> 3.1 will break binary compatibility yet again, and will be out soon.
Releasing a .0 release with gcc 3.0.x would mean having to do gcc 3.0.x throughout all .x releases, even after it's obsolete.

It's better to just skip 3.0.x and get a 3.1 or 3.2 based distribution out when it's ready.

Re:gcc 3.x

[johnnyb]

I don't understand what this 'binary incompatibility' is. Does this mean .solibs will need to be replaced?

*********

You are thinking C, but this is mostly in regard to C++. C++ does really nasty things to class/function/method names when it compiles. And, on top of that, there's no standard for it. Thus, in almost every release, GCC breaks binary C++ compatibility. I don't see why anyone even tries to dynamically link C++ - just statically link all C++ parts. However, others disagree.

Version names

[omega9]

I'm sure most of you know that Red Hat's versions names are all related to each other in some way. Here's a breakdown starting from 7.0:

• 7.0-Guinness
  
• 7.0.90-Fisher
  Carrie Fisher and Alec Guiness were both cast emembers of Star Wars
  
• 7.0.91-Wolverine
  the fisher and wolverine are both members of the weazel family
  
• 7.1-Seawolf
  The U.S.S. Wolverine and U.S.S. Seawolf are both submarines
  
• 7.1.93-Roswell
  The Seawolf was the first sub powered by a liquid metal cooled reactor. It was completed exactly 10 years after the Roswell incident
  
• 7.1.94-Roswell (no name change)
  
• 7.2-Enigma
  Enigma is the name of a UFO museum in Roswell, NM
  
• 7.2.91-Skipjack (7.3 beta)
  Skipjack and Enigma are both encryption algorithms
  

Reference: Freshrpms

Re:Version names

[kruczkowski]

Enigma is more famouse for being the German code machine during WWII. Germans thought is was unbreakable. Story goes that a group of Poles stole the machine and gave it to the Brits, they figured out how to use it and crack the German communitaction.

More information and a picture here

What about zlib

[ahde]

Does anyone know if 7.3 has the patched zlib -- and more especially, any packages that include a static zlib recompiled with the patch?

Re:What about zlib

[bero-rh]

Sure, the zlib stuff has been fixed in *whatever the release will be called*.

Re:What about zlib

[dead_penguin]

Sure, the zlib stuff has been fixed in *whatever the release will be called*.

You're really getting annoyed by all of the version number questions, aren't you? ;) This is only slashdot; if you tell us we can keep a secret!

In all seriousness, though, your presence here and the answers you provide are really appreciated by myself and probably many others. Thank you!

Re:What about zlib

[bero-rh]

Ok, the next release will be made as soon as the Microsoft loses its trademark in the MicrosoftLindows lawsuit, and it'll be called Windows LX.

But don't tell anyone, we don't want to spread the word and if you tell too many people, it might actually show up on slashdot.

Re:Linuxconf

[bero-rh]

Simply use a virtual user table (/etc/postfix/virtual). The postfix README file tells you how to do it, but the layout of the file is simple:

@foo.net user@foo.com

Would send all mails to any address @foo.net to user@foo.com.

Distro for the Masses to pull users from Windows

[BigBlockMopar]

I find it particularly disturbing that Red Hat is growing "exponentially" in size. I'm pretty sure that they don't have to include all the options but they don't make it easy to disable them.

I gotta agree, RH seems to be turning into Microsoft. Remember the bug list on RH 7.0? It rivalled Windows 2000.

Unfortunately, I don't think it's unwarranted. RH is the defacto standard Linux distro and will probably be the one to take the desktop from Microsoft, if ever anyone manages to. Installing everything by default is as a consequence of tech support nightmares:

• "I thought this thing had a webserver"
• "It does, sir, go to Start, Control Panel, Add and Remove Programs, Internet Information Server. Stick your Windows CD into the drive, restart when prompted, and you're done."
• "Stop it, that's too technical!"

End-users *are* that stupid. I'd always thought it was an urban legend, but then I did tech support for a while, and was amazed to actually speak to someone who believed that the CD-ROM's drawer was a coffee holder.

As a consequence of the stupidity of users versus the cost of tech support, Windows tends to install and start IIS by default.

And any other mainstream operating system will have to tend to do similar things by default, both in order to remain financially viable and perceived as being easy enough for e-mail-virus-spreading simpleton end-users to be able to handle.

Now many of you may jump on the bandwagon and say "Wait, Linux is not meant to be easy". I'll retort by saying: Red Hat should be easy. If you're going to target users with a desktop application then you don't make things harder. Desktops were invented to make things easier or more efficient to use.

Absolutely. To viably get Linux onto the desktops of the masses, we need at least (but preferably only) one easy-to-install, works right out of the box distro that does everything. Red Hat appears to be it, though the consequences are necessarily going to be size and stability. However, I'd rather have a big, bloated and buggy Red Hat user base out there than the big, bloated and buggy Windows user base we have out there. At least it moves people to a real operating system, and once they're familiar with how UNIX works, they can go out and install any other UNIX variant of their choice and be reasonably competent. It also helps to slow down The Dark Overlord's plans for world domination.

And, in my experience, bugs in a UNIX/Linux environment tend to be less serious than those in Windows, due to better security models and better coding.

Re:Next Redhat Release and Python

[bero-rh]

That's not compatible with the older versions, therefore the change will happen in the next .0 release.

Re:How is their KDE 3 compiled?

[bero-rh]

Support for Cups?

Yes

Kamera support seems to be compiled in

It is. If you have the equipment, please give it a try.
I've done the port of Kamera from the gphoto 2.0beta3 API to the gphoto 2.0final API, and I don't have the hardware to run any tests other than the Microsoftish "it compiles, therefore it works".

What about cdparanoia/lame and ogg bindings for the
AudioCD IOSlave?

cdparanoia and ogg are built in, lame isn't because it's illegal (patent issues - if you want the support in, write to your government explaining why software patents are evil).

Re:Linuxconf

[Sc00ter]

Go to rpm find, search for linuxconf, install, enjoy and quit your bitchin'

Keeping your machine 'pure'

[jmorris42]

> I try to keep my laptop pure redhat with no
> self compiles.

There is a way to have your cake and eat it too. Build your own RPMS with anything you want that didn't ship on the CD or rebuild their packages with different options. If you build it yourself you can know it will run with your libraries and such. Keep the SRPMS around and you can quickly rebuild anything that breaks after the next OS upgrade. Since you are keeping everything managed with RPM your packages get managed in the same way as RH supplied software and everything 'just works."

It isn't that hard anymore. If you can't find a SRPM on rpmfind.net grab the tar.gz and look inside for a .spec file. A growing number of projects include one. A tarball with a .spec file it better than a SRPM file for all practical intents and purposes. Just do "rpm -tb .tar.gz instead of "rpm -i .srpm ;rpm -bb /usr/src/redhat/SPECS/.spec"

Already?

[tweakt]

Damnit... I'm still downloading Mandrake 8.2 ISOs. *sigh*

Re:working 2.4 kernel?

[bero-rh]

The kernel is 2.4.18+patches, so if 2.4.x started to work for you in 2.4.15, you should be ok.

We haven't had any problems with the 2.4.9 errata kernel for 7.2, though.

Re:working 2.4 kernel?

[the eric conspiracy]

Hmmm - we are running a server rack with Dell 2550 poweredges, Compaq DM360 + DM 370 a HP LH with internal RAID and a EMC Celera supplying 2TB of NFS mounts on RH 7.2/ 2.4.9 without a burp.

Dod you just download a vanilla 2.4 kernel, or did you use something from RedHat? The -ac series is generally more stable than the stuff you get from kernel.org.

SSN Skipjack

[dpilot]

As someone else mentioned, the Skipjack is/was a submarine. It was the first nuclear submarine with an Albacore-type hull. In essence the first 'true' submarine that was truly optimized for underwater, and not a surface ship that temporarily sinks.

Also FYI, the Albacore has been made into a museum, and is the BEST submarine tour I've ever been on, better than any WWII boats, and better than the Nautilus. The WWII boats are too old and worn, and the Nautilus is all behind plexiglass, and they've torn it up too much putting stairs and such in. The albacore is a single level, pretty much accessable from stem to stern.

Former submarine nut, until someone told me in second grade that I would be too tall to be on one. Still, it got me to read 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea at age 9.

Re:SSN Skipjack

[Nailer]

Also FYI, the Albacore has been made into a museum, and is the BEST submarine tour I've ever been on, better than any WWII boats, and better than the Nautilus.

Better than Nautilus? Like that would be hard...

and it has....

[josepha48]

Glide3, XFree 4.2, cups, (e)ruby, evolution, still has gcc 2.96 but also gcc 3.x, kde 3.x, kernel 2.4.18, mozilla .9.9, netscape 4.79, and more. pretty sweet....

I hope they release this as 7.3 and not 8.0.

6.2 was the last clean release (for me, at least)

[TheGratefulNet]

I still insist on taking 6.2 and upgrading just a few pkgs (by the tarball, not rpm) to bring it to full 2.4 kernel compliance.

I really object to the 'illegal' gcc that redhat (and now mandrake) seem to be peddling. at least 2 products seem to object strongly to the 2.96 gcc (I remember reiserfs having a fit about 2.96; and I forget the other thing that didn't like 2.96, sorry)..

my boss uses a sony vaio (shouldn't matter) and has NEVER had success with redhat 7.x and nfs. don't ask me why - but I have to statically compile nfs into the kernel or it won't work. 6.2 was just fine, though.

it sucks that 6.2 was the last clean version - and it doesn't look like RH is going back to 2.95gcc, so I guess I won't really be spending time trying out any new RH release. oh well.

Re:6.2 was the last clean release (for me, at leas

[Chazmati]

at least 2 products seem to object strongly to the 2.96 gcc (I remember reiserfs having a fit about 2.96; and I forget the other thing that didn't like 2.96, sorry)..

Maybe that would be Mplayer. See here and here. From these links you'd think there's a little friction between the Mplayer guys and the Red Hat crew. Can't we all get along? :)

You should make that clearer

[roystgnr]

In the .iso naming conventions, I mean. Old Red Hat distributions generally made it clear on the FTP site which CDs were needed for install and which were source. This time I couldn't tell for sure what was what, so I wasted a couple gigabytes of some poor mirror sites' bandwidth.

I want SRPM CDs included when I buy boxed sets from you guys, but when I'm doing an install from the internet I'm happier just pulling the few packages I specifically want source code for rather than the entire OS source.

By the way, I'm posting from 7.2.92 right now; no problems with it yet. Even installing without removing any Ximian packages first doesn't seem to have caused any problems. Good work.

Re:ReiserFS?

[Lumpy]

god grief man you have something either horribly mis-configured or you have hardware that is getting flakey. I can play reset button dance grooves at any time and it usually rebounds without intervention on ext2. other times when I say hit reset 10 times in a row within a 5 second period (Yes I do torture testing on my servers before they go into service..) it asks for admin password and I have to fsck /dev/sda1 by hand (the system partition is ALWAYS on it's own, you raid5 the important stuff like data+SQL)

I have yet to see ext2 fail on good hardware to the point a re-install is needed.

Re:6.2 was the last clean release (for me, at leas

[mabinogi]

What 'Illegal' gcc?...

You mean the 'breaks less packages than 3.x and supports more standard C++ features than 2.95.X', compiler that was released from a snapshot of a PUBLIC CVS repository.....

The only thing that the gcc people were annoyed at was the fact that people might think that 2.96 was an official gcc release, as opposed to a RedHat release.

There's nothing wrong with the compiler itself, in fact, RedHat do a very good job of stabalising a product, since they are the ones that REALLY get it out on people's machines.

And regardless of that, they're stuck with it until 8.0 anyway, as they can't break binary compatibility until then.

Add/Remove

[HiThere]

And sometimes after you do this little thing, you switch to DOS and then copy system.old to system.dat and user.old to user.dat.

It's a nice menu thingee, and it often works. But, O, when it doesn't! If you don't have the right backup you could end up reinstalling your OS. But with the legal changes in the last few years I don't do that anymore. Not with what MS is putting in their EULA's! I do not, have not, and will not give them that kind of authority over any computer that they do not own. And certainly not over me.
.

Re:working 2.4 kernel?

[aallan]

We haven't had any problems with the 2.4.9 errata kernel for 7.2, though.

There is a bug in the usb-uhci driver that causes the machine to hang when using the pwc (Philips Webcam) module. Presumably the bug shows up in other places although I haven't run into it myself.

Al.

robo-bero

[ahde]

does redhat have a dozen people all reading slashdot and answering questions with the same login

the real bero is probably still busy defending the choice to include gcc-2.96 on usenet

Re:robo-bero

[bero-rh]

Oops, I've been caught. Ok, time to tell the truth. I'm actually a shell script; a combination of wget, grep, cat FAQ and
line 119: syntax error: unexpected end of file

Does Debian do source tarballs?

[roystgnr]

Well then build the tarball into a binary and source RPM and keep those. :)

Oh, I wasn't trying to contradict you, just pointing out that if you're given an SRPM and can't find a tar+spec, then there's a better way to build the SRPM.

My point was that execting every developer to maintain tar.gz, rpm and deb versions of every release is unrealistic, especially since a tarball with a spec inside is just as useful, if not more so than a seperate srpm for download on sourceforge.

I agree completely. Can dpkg do anything like the "tar+spec" for source packages? It would be nice if people could distribute a single tarball and keep the RPM, DPKG, and hand-compile fans all happy.

Re:Does Debian do source tarballs?

[victwenty]

I agree completely. Can dpkg do anything like the "tar+spec" for source packages? It would be nice if people could distribute a single tarball and keep the RPM, DPKG, and hand-compile fans all happy.

Yes, it's contained in a debian directory under the top level which contains several files which together are the equivilant to an rpm spec. With that in place, you just run "dpkg-buildpackage -r fakeroot" (assuming you aren't root, which you generally shouldn't be for this) from the top level directory. In fact, if you "apt-get source package", you get a tarball of the debian version of the source, ready to package.

First 7.2.92 bug!

[roystgnr]

I try to run up2date, and I get the error message:

Traceback (innermost last):
File "/usr/sbin/up2date", line 16, in ?
from up2date_client import clap
ImportError: cannot import name clap

So, does anybody know how I get the clap? ;-)

software patents

[FredGray]

cdparanoia and ogg are built in, lame isn't because it's illegal (patent issues - if you want the support in, write to your government explaining why software patents are evil).

Does anyone know whether there is any actual case law regarding software patents yet? That is, has anyone ever obtained an injunction or damages from a court (in the U.S.) based purely on a software patent?

Open Office: it'd be great to include it.

[dwheeler]

I'd like to see Open Office added to the Red Hat distribution; I don't see it noted in the announcement.

Yes, I know that Red Hat isn't _primarily_ marketing to desktops, but even system administrators and and others need to read and edit Word, PowerPoint, and Excel files. For example, there are FAR too many documents (including technical material) that are only available in those formats. KWord is quite ineffective at importing Word, and Abiword can only handle very simple Word documents. Gnumeric does a good job with Excel spreadsheets, but I know of no other open source program that can handle powerpoint files. If you don't want it to use up space on your hard drive, don't install Open Office, but for many it would be a BIG help to have Open Office ready-to-install on the CD's.

Re:Open Office: it'd be great to include it.

[bero-rh]

OpenOffice will be included when it's ready.
This means among other things that it must build without relying on proprietary crap like Sun JDK, and the resulting binaries must work.

We're trying to get it to build with gcj for the Java parts, but that doesn't work yet. No promises or estimates.

Re:Open Office: it'd be great to include it.

[johnnyb]

We're trying to get it to build with gcj for the Java parts, but that doesn't work yet. No promises or estimates.

***

Wow! I did not know that RHAT had such a commitment to gcj. That's amazing, and I'm looking forward to seeing the results, if and when they appear.

Now he tells me......

[jmorris42]

Looked earlier, didn't find em. Ah well, Disc 2 is about halfway down already so no sense in not letting it complete.

But it is good to see how fast that the grumbles from the natives got all the way up the chain of command and the problem fixed for the future. Way to go!

Re:6.2 was the last clean release (for me, at leas

[civilizedINTENSITY]

Agreed, and its a big deal to numerical types who use athlons. Our chem. dept. put together a cluster of dual 1.2 ghz athlon boards. Ran a test case using sandia labs MPQC (Massively Parallel Quantum Computing, GPLed by the way :-), comparing it to results from the prof.s single cpu 800 mhz athlon. The 800 mhz athlon kicked ass on the dual 1.2 ghz, until we researched the problems with later gcc and athlons, downloaded an older compiler, and recompiled MPQC. Then it rocked! Interested people might google for ATLAS (or take the ATLAS link after googling LAPACK).

The post I am replying to will destroy your system

[Nailer]

This will delete any important system components installed / updated by Ximian, and is likely to break your system. Please moderate it down if possible.

The simplest way to use 7.2.92 is to upgrade, then reinstall Ximian GNOME like it says.

If you did want to get rid of Ximian GNOME, do it with apt-get, avaliable from freshrpms.net. This will make sure your system is always in a working state during the deinstallation process

Kernel 2.4.18?

[FooBarWidget]

I thought kernel 2.4.10+ doesn't conform to RedHat's quality tests because of the new VM.
What's going on here? Is 2.4.18 stable enough or did RedHat ported the old VM to 2.4.18?

What about Enlightenment ?

[The_Lightman]

I just looked at the RPMs in Skipjack. Seems like you decided not to include enlightenment (0.16) in the next release. Now, that's kinda disappointing. I know for sure there are still a lot of ppl still using it.

I hope you'll include it in the next release.

Re:Actually, you're WRONG.

[1010011010]

"X", as in, "insert value here," not "X Window System."

Chill.

Re:6.2 was the last clean release (for me, at leas

[Omnifarious]

I was quite pleased with the gcc 2.96 release. I got to start using some C++ features that I've been wanting to use for a long time, but didn't work with the older compilers. I submitted a few bug reports, but recent versions have been stable as a rock for me.

Re:I don't know what world you live in...

[BlowCat]

gcc and gcc3 are different packages on RedHat 7.2 and above. I guess you have a problem understading it. I'm using the deafult compiler (gcc-2.96) to compile everything and I don't have the gcc3 package installed.

Despite being a "bastard", gcc-2.96 does a pretty decent job. The only problem I have ever had with it is that it doesn't always warn about unused static functions.

Re:working 2.4 kernel?

[bero-rh]

It's pretty close to the ac tree (with some testing stuff removed).
Other important added patches:

• misc. bugfixes
• tux
• in-kernel ksymoops
• low latency patch
• O(1) scheduler
• aic7xxx driver update
• rawio patch
• CIPE

Red Hat Network Issues

[OrenWolf]

I loved RHN for a long time. It really worked well for us. I, too, marketed Red Hat to the "Powers that Be" by telling them that the Red Hat Network would allow us to upgrade our hundred-odd boxen without even loggin in! Instant win for Redhat and Linux in our organization. Because of this, I expected to see Solaris and *BSD out within the next year...

Then it happened.

While updating the SNMP errata that came out a few weeks back, I noticed it took an inordinate amount of time to actually *do* the update. Curious as to why, I jumped into the box, only to find that my quite, happy litle server had X, Gnome, EsounD, and about 100 other X or GUI-based RPM's installed (our servers run with no X features, including the libs).

The Red Hat network provides *no* logs (that I could find) about what it has done, so it took me some time to figure out *why* the Red Hat network had decided to add 100 additional RPM's to my box. Then it hit me:

- The snmp errata also included ethereal, and ethereal-gnome, both X packages, even though they were *not* installed on the server itself!

Apparently, the rhn had decided to install the dependancies for ethereal (basically, performing an rpm -U instead of an rpm -F). I informed rhn feedback and support of the issue, but never actually heard back from them.

So, unfortunately, I have no choice but to cancel the 100 workgroup licenses we were purchasing. I can't risk this happening to our other servers randomly, especially when RH doesn't even appear to want to correct the issue.

*sigh*

Re:ReiserFS?

[Kymermosst]

Now OTOH, (at least with the older versions) if I power off a RH Ext2 box hard, I have to reinstall the distro.

I've done a few hard reboots in the past with ext2, and never had a problem like that.

Incidentally, I use ext3 now, and it's great!

Re:The post I am replying to will destroy your sys

[woggo]

Is there an apt-rpm repository for Ximian? I'd sure like to be able to use apt-get instead of redcarpet.

Re:The post I am replying to will destroy your sys

[Nailer]

There is an apt-get get repository for Gnomehide, which includes all the latest GNOME packages for Red Hat 7.2 and is produced by Havoc Pennington from Red Hat.

In your sources.list:
rpm http://apt.nixia.no redhat/7.2/i386 gnomehide

Postfix *and* vsftp

[geirt]

Yes !!!

postfix-1.1.4-3.i386.rpm

vsftpd-1.0.1-4.i386.rpm

I must be dreaming, postfix and vsftp in the next redhat. I am going to upgrade my servers to 7.3 when it is ready. Yes, definitely, yes, going to upgrade ...

Re:Should delay 8.0

[Micah]

ok, no I'm not sure about that. I guess I just meant "the next binary incompatible release of glibc"

You're a bit behind the times there, friend...

[devphil]

C++ does really nasty things to class/function/method names when it compiles. And, on top of that, there's no standard for it.

First, the fact that different compilers use different name mangling (what you call "really nasty things") is a Good Thing. There are bigger differences between .o output than just the names; keeping the mangled names different means that you won't fall into any of the pitfalls resulting from those other differences. Magically making all the symbols the same will not let you magically link .o's/.so's/.a's from one compiler with code from another compiler.

Second, there is a standard ABI now. It was first implemented in 3.0, and 3.1 has some bugfixes for it. Other vendors are writing compilers to use the same ABI, which means that C++ can be cross-vendor-linked the same way as C.

Re:You're a bit behind the times there, friend...

[johnnyb]

Where is this standard? I've never heard of it. Link please.

Re:You're a bit behind the times there, friend...

[devphil]

Start at http://gcc.gnu.org/ and follow the link called "readings" or "further readings" or something like that. There should be one or more links to a C++ cross-vendor ABI spec.

Part of it is based on the System V gABI and psABI, and then there are some new things specifying cross-language name mangling and exception handling routines (e.g., a Java function calls a C++ function which calls an Ada function; the Ada function throws an Ada exception, which the Java function can catch as a Java exception.

Re:You're a bit behind the times there, friend...

[johnnyb]

Thanks!

and you could have gotten better results

[mattdm]

http://www.smoogespace.com/documents/behind_the_na mes.html.