Slashdot Mirror
Honesty/Ethics In Job Applications?
jt007 writes "I am a student in the UK who graduates from a computing course in a matter of weeks, and am starting to look for graduate jobs. One problem though, a friend and I are going travelling in about 15 months (obviously I need the job to pay for the trip!). Do I tell my employers this before I start work and potentially harm my chances of getting the job, or do I just shaft them in 15 months time? I would be interested in finding out in particular how IT managers out there would react to being put in a situation like this? Would it harm any chances of a reference for a future job? So the question is: is it best to keep quiet about my plans, or is honesty the best policy?" Look at it this way: if the company planned to close your office in 15 months would they tell you? If you were leaving in a much shorter period of time I'd think you should tell them, they might be rather annoyed to train you in a job and then have you depart and you might not be able to use them as a reference in the future. But 15 months? If you tell them, not only would you risk not getting the job because of it, your plans might change before then and you'd have lost the job for nothing.
Gah. If you were leaving in fifteen days, that's a dilemma. 15 months. Gah.
Al Qaeda has ninjas!
1. How would you, as an employer, want prospective employees to behave? 2. What would happen if everyone behaved that way?
What about the chance of taking a leave of absense?
I've hit Karma 50 and gotten a Score:5, Troll... I win!
15 months is a non-issue. It's so far out that your plans could just as well change. This needn't even be on the radar at this point.
How long are you going to be away on this trip? If it's only two or three weeks, you may be able to save up vacation/sick time or make a deal with your employer.
As soon as you tell all my past employers that "IT" does not mean maintain every piece of electronic equipment in the office, I'll be more realistic in my resume.
"Electronic Stapler's broken! Call the IT Guy over here right now!"
Recent stats show that, at least for people previously on unemployment benefit in Australia, the average amount of time spent in a job is 3 months. Your chances of finding a position that lasts longer than that, for whatever reason (clueless management, business failure, fraud, etc) are slim to nil. Similarly, your trip is likely to be cancelled for one reason or another by then (airline failure, bombing, etc).
If you feel that volunteering this informatin would jeopardize your chances of landing the job (or subsequently losing it), then you shouldn't do so. If you are directly asked whether you will be takin vacation time, it's a much clearer ethical problem--you should probably inform them.
This most likely isn't a concern for the company, but if you offer the information and show that you yourself are concerned about it, they might in turn become very concerned and think twice about your standing with the company.
Fifteen months in the future is a long way off. Get yourself settled in at the company before you announce your plans. If you do it well enough ahead of time, your prudence will probably even be appreciated.
Would you bet a million pounds/baht/dollars? Would you bet your life?
If not, you can't say for sure you're going, so why tell any prospective employer?
YES, there is a McDonald's in Hanoi Square.
Unless they ask you specifically if you are going to be there in 15 months, then don't tell. Don't lie, but don't volunteer the information. Your plans could change by then. 15 months is a long ways off.
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do.
15 months is a ways out. Don't tell them. Shoot, you might find out by then you hate the job anyway. It's not uncommon for people to quit without giving reason, and they still find jobs afterward.
If you prove to be a very valuable employee, they may give you your old position when you return, but don't expect paid vacation.
If you make a habit of quitting jobs after short periods of time, then it starts to make you look bad. But quitting a first job? I think people almost expect that.
Give me my freedom, and I'll take care of my own security, thank you.
If they're offering you a two year contract, you speak up. If they're employing you 'at will' then it's none of their damn business.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
I know tons of people, and the majority of them all left for a trip after a couple of years of their first job.
;-)
In french they say "Les voyages forment la jeunesse", but I would extend that to a larger sense, that you don't mature until you've been away from home for a while.
I'm the exception to this rule, as I never had the chance to travel before my late-twenties, but made it up after that by working for companies with offices around the globe (free travel rocks
People are going to talk each other in circles a lot over this one. The bottom line: you can decide not to tell them, which will improve your chances in finding a job, but which is also not the "right thing to do," or you can tell them, which will hurt your chances, but which is the ethical choice.
Look at the job market, and you make your decision, mister.
FWIW, you might not go on this vacation in 15 months. Maybe you'll be so into the job you'll want to work more. Maybe you'll decide to go earlier. Perhaps you'll knock some young lady up and have other things to deal with in 15 months. Maybe your friend will be abducted by sheep.
You just never know. (and so maybe it's better not to shoot yourself in the foot, no?)
[snip]
Look at it this way: if the company planned to close your office in 15 months would they tell you?
[/snip]
That says it all. Yes, honesty is good. But not telling them what you plan to do over a year from now isn't being dishonest or unethical. If they could fire you without any warning, you don't need to give them much notice before you go away.
Plus, it's 15 months. A lot could happen in between now and then.
If truth is something which needs discussion, then the whole relationship is untrue from the very beginning.
Next time you are asked, wether the software you wrote ws really tested against suchandsuch situation and you again have to think it over wether to confess that you've forgotten it or lie straight into your coordinator's face. And so on and so forth.
Of course, if your boss is that unaware, that she/he doesn't recognise when you lie, she/he deserves it. But on the other hand, if you are a liar you deserve the same kind of persons to peer with.
That's simply not a matter of morale, it's a matter of intelligence: you will attract persons and situations of the same attitude. That's a law of nature.
So simply decide on the basis of how you'd like to be treated - because in the long run you will be treated alike - wherever it may be: in the job, at home or abroad.
I am not an IT manager, but I have been the employee in this situation.
I recently left a job in order to return to school for a Masters. This was my first job after my Bachelors, and I left the job after less than a year.
My managers were very understanding, even though I left in the middle of a development cycle. I expect to be able to use these managers as positive references.
The bottom line is that you need to do what is best for you. There can be consequences, but you need to weigh what is important to you.
You don't necessarily need to sacrifice honesty! Eventually, my managers inquired about my long term goals with the company. This was the point that I announced my intentions, rather than hiding them from direct inquiry. I think that this honesty was appreciated and will positively effect any future contact that I may have with my managers.
Good luck with your decision!
If that was really our standpoint, there would be nothing to discuss about.
Fact is: we lie. Often.
Excuse is: others do it also.
Who is continuing this dance around the golden calf, if not me? Who should stop that, if not me? When should it stop, if not now?
What happens when your second employer asks you, after your trip, why you not only left your first employer after only a year and three months, but then spent the next few months cavorting about before getting another job? What will you tell them?
"Well, I shafted my first employer, then went to Amsterdam and smoked pot for 8 weeks. It was a fuckin' blast!"
I can guarantee you that, unless you walk quickly, the door will hit your ass on the way out.
- A.P.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
It is an interesting dilema indeed, and my first reaction is tell them, just because I would want any applicant to tell me things like that. Will it hurt your chances of getting the job, most definitely !
You could consider contract style work as well, getting a 12 months contract, mostly in those hard times, isn't that uncommon.
If you don't tell them you will indeed make out like a bandit however you are likely to burn bridges and if this is the industry you want to work in be careful, everyone one knows everyone "once removed".
The number of times where I had someone apply for a position and someone in the company knew them from previous worlplaces is just astounding.
All in all I would strongly suggest looking for contract work since to me neither alternative looks good, lie and potentially burn bridges, tell the truth and probably not get the job... then again it depends on the job you are applying for as well.
and that was my 2cents worth
"there is a marmot in the bucket ? I'll go fix that." (don't ask)
I know here in the US nobody would care if you announced you were leaving after 15 months. However I don't know how it would go over in the UK. You're talking two very different job markets. On the other hand, don't mention it, and then just quit the job. Don't tell them you're leaving because you're going on vacation... just quit. You can do that right?
The Generation
I'd say something witty here, but I'm not that bright.
You should only think about yourself. Look out for your best interests because nobody else is. I've seen small(>50 employees before the layoff, 3 employees after) and large companies lay-off workers with little notice. I wouldn't tell them until 2 weeks before you plan on leaving.
2nd peice of advice, don't sign anything that may prevent you from changing jobs. I had to sign a year agreement which prevented me for applying for other jobs within the company before they would send me to training. The job I was waiting for for over a year was posted 2 months later, but I couldn't apply. oh well only 30 days left
Pseudocode is code to demonstrate a concept, not designed to be run. Like certain M$ software.
What is your track record for keeping this sort of long-term committment, even in the face of change? Remember, the first casualty of a battle is the battle plan.
How can you say that you will be doing thus-and-so that far into the future? You stand a good chance of being side-tracked somewhere along the way, in which case telling your prospective employer that you will say "farewell, so long" at 15 months is not necessarily accurate.
Besides, you may learn that the job isn't what it was cracked up to be, and you leave long before the 15-month "promise". There are too many things unknown.
There is another possibility. You might not quit, but instead take an unpaid leave of absence... if you are good enough and valuable enough.
Do you want to work at a company where your paycheck is determined upon whether the owner's mortgage application gets accepted or not?
How many job descriptions are along the lines of:
Minimum qualifications:
6+ years exp with XML
10+ years exp with Java
HTML and CSS knowledge a plus
It's over a year away. If you're a regular employee of the company, you'll be getting paid vacation time to use for it. If you're a contractor, you can make arrangements as the time approaches.
I wouldn't worry about it until about 6 months before the trip begins.
How much time are you going to need out of the office for the trip in the first place?
At my company, we've had two contractors return home to India (one did it twice) for a month at a stretch to get married. Neither told us when they started, but gave us the appropriate amount of advance notice such that they weren't critical to a project in that timeframe, and we had enough coverage and people picking up the "slack" in their absence. Turned out to be No Big Deal for us.
I don't know about the specific job you are looking at, but 15 months might actually be a long time to work for a company. Many technical jobs have lower turnover rates than that. In tech support if you've worked 8 months you are considered senior.
You need to decide. If you let 'slashdot' decide for you, you'll never be your own person.
Personally I'm a truthful person: I value integrity, and I try to behave accordingly. Were I in your shoes I would tend towards bringing up the subject if it isn't brought up during the course of the interview. But it would also depend on the position. If all it was was general IT stuff (admin, user support, transient jobs, etc) then I may not bring it up, though if they did I'd certianly be straightforward with them.
If it was long term employment (ie, long development cycles, large projects, long learning curves, etc) then I wouldn't want the position - it wouldn't be beneficial to either me or my employer.
I think the bottom line is you need to evaluate what kind of employee/employer relationship you want to have, and seek out a position which will be beneficial to both of you.
-Adam
You can't have your cake and eat it too...
How long's the trip for? Don't you get Vacation pay?
Fifteen months is a long time. You don't tell your emplyer that if you are already emplyed either. It would certainly not harm your resyme. If you've been working there for fifteen months, and decide to take a years vacation, or quit, you've certainly worked there long enough to get a good reference.
I don't know what it is like in the UK, but in the US it is customary to give two weeks notice before leaving your job. Most employers understand that "turnover" is a fact of life. It may come as a shock to your ego, but no single employee is indispensible. People come and go, and yet corporations survive.
I learned this lesson through experience. After college, I started worked for a large insurance company. After working there for 4+ years, my girlfriend (now wife) was taking a job in another city and I wanted to move with her. I agonized over what I was going to tell my employer. I felt guilty that I was bailing out on them after they had given me four years of gainful employment and experience. I honestly felt like I was doing something unethical by leaving them like that.
When I went into my manager's office to give him my letter of resignation, I was literally shaking. I thought that I would get escorted out of the building in shame. Much to my delight, my manager shook my hand and wished me the best of luck in my new city. He totally understood that people come and go, and although my leaving would be missed, they would make due.
Later I came to the realization that I was silly to feel guilty about leaving. Even though they had given me 4+ years of paychecks and experience, I had given them 4+ years of good work. Looking at things that way, it was a perfectly fair economic transaction. Once one party no longer gains from the transaction, he or she is perfect justified in terminating the relationship. There is nothing ethically wrong with that at all. You have no moral obligation to work for them longer than you desire, just like they have no obligation to keep you employed more than they desire.
As a practical issue, future companies are going to be wary of the fact that you only stayed with your job for 15 months and then left for an extended vacation. Usually employers will ask why you left your last job and what you did with your time between jobs. You may have some explaining to do.
Of course, you have alternatives to quitting after 15 months. You didn't say how long you are travelling for, but you can always use vacation time or take an unpaid leave of absense. If you prove yourself to be a valuable employee, you may be able to work something out.
------
www.moneybythenumbers.com
Q: so, what do you think of this person?
A: you would be lucky if this person worked for you [for 15 months].
...with the obvious double meaning, of course.
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
Most decent companies will allow you to take unpaid leave, so you might not have to quit.
As a lot of others have said, don't lie but don't volunteer the information. Saying that I like to travel and that I'd consider unpaid leave to be a major perk would be about as far as I'd go without a direct question.
What you plan to do in 15 months doesn't concern them. You know an employment contract isn't the same as slavery, right? ;) As long as you respect the legal delays, you can quit whenever you want to for whatever reason you want to (the same apply to your employers and they won't feel bad about it, trust me). And for a first job, staying 15 months is a perfectly normal duration.
True warriors use the Klingon Google
By asking here you've probably told everybody anyway ;)
Would now be a good time to mention that I too am looking for a job? Sysadmin for hire, Edinburgh, Scotland, UK
I have worked in both locations, and from my perspective the UK was far better for this kind of decision. It is more cut-throat in the US, and I think the comments here generally reflect that.
:)
When I announced to my UK employers that I wanted to return to Canada permanently, a number of my superiors questioned the logic of my decision. But they didn't stop me, and there were absolutely no hard feelings. This was three years ago now, and I am still in contact (happily so, in nearly all cases) with both colleagues and superiors.
In sum, don't feel like you have to trumpet your intentions right now to everyone. Other people have said it well -- things might change. But if the topic comes up, be honest, matter-of-fact, and genial. I think it will be very much appreciated.
I'm plotting my UK comeback tour as we speak
========================================
Death will come, and will have your eyes
-- Pavese
"I am a student in the UK who graduates from a computing course in a matter of weeks, and am starting to look for graduate jobs."Well, good luck. The UK IT recruitment market has been buggered for the past 6 months, and will probably be so for the next year too. How do I know this? I work for one of London's biggest IT recruitment agencies, and the few jobs that are available are only going to people with LOTS of real world experience. If you have them, use any/all of your contacts to secure something IT-related quickly, no matter how naff the job may be or pay...
You've got a couple of things to consider here. First of all, you should remember that very few employers will offer you full employment status right off the bat. Firms hiring entry level employees generally have a "trial period" of at least 6 months or so, in order to protect themselves from the hassles of firing a full-fledged employee if that becomes necessary early on.
That being said, there is often an unspoken agreement about your intentions in a new job. Don't be fooled into thinking that just because you haven't committed to a long term on paper, you can up and leave when you feel like it, and still tell yourself that you have been honest. In other words, you will know if you are giving the impression that you intend to be a long-term employee - in this case you are not being 100% honest, however, you may not be acting wrong from an ethical standpoint. Keep in mind that your (potential) employer likely has a hidden agenda as well. Don't confuse "ethical behaviour" with "100% honesty".
Another way of looking at the matter is to consider what a reasonable time-frame for planning this type of trip is. I highly doubt that anything is carved in stone at this point - most likely your only commitment is to your friend. Get the job and then tell your employer 6/4/2 months before you intend to go - you decide how long is reasonable. Would you have these qualms about taking a job if you were planning a trip 2 years in the future? 3 years? 5 years?
The last thing you should keep in mind is that (and this is In My own Humble Opinion) if your prospective employer makes it clear to you that they are interested in an employee that wants to be around for the long haul, then you've gotta fess up. If they make it clear that they're concerned, it's an honesty & and ethics question.
Just my $x/100 {xEint;0x100}.
I have seen way too many job descriptions like this on monster.com to laugh.
Take care of yourself first; you damn well know that the company will fire you whenever it is in their best interest of the company - why should your behavior be any different? be
Considered harmful.
Hint: recruiters are clueless. Try to
go directly to the employer.
Considered harmful.
Make sure you don't include your slashdot id or the email address associated with it on your resume.
sulli
RTFJ.
As far as I'm aware, it's going to take you a few months to get a job, especially if you're in London. 15 months is probably more realisitcally 11 months.
Sometime last year (must have been spring becuase I was still in school), I saw a job advert on Dice.com requiring "10 or more years of experience with Linux". Um. Ok. Early spring of '91 start time with linux... Sooo, that leaves Linus, right? (iirc wasn't the first announcement in April of '91?)
News for Geeks in Austin, TX
People being people, employers would not be to to surprised, nor disgruntled if one of their junior employees realize after a year at the first job that they want to travel for a while before settling down with family / kids / house etc.
Depending on the employer (as mentioned in other posts) and on how long you will be gone, it is not at all unlikely that they will grant you a laeva without pay. If not - then just part ways amically.
Future employers will also understand this kind of behaviour, and wont be concerned with it, especially since you will be able to tell them (truthfully) that you now have done your traveling and is happy to settle down in job life with a number of weeks per year vacation. (Vacation in Europe is much longer than in US, where you may have to take your vacation between jobs).
My two cents based on my 7 year working experience in Sweden.
OK, I'm a bit late replying to this one, but here's another UK perspective.
1. Employers of graduate trainees often expect you to leave after a year to 18 months. They want to replace you with another cheap trainee.
2. Standard UK practice is 1 months notice. As long as you give that before leaving, there should be no hard feelings.
3. My experience of medium to large firms is that turnover of new staff within a year of starting runs about 50%. Maybe the job just won't suit you, maybe the environment.
4. Having said that, a year minimum for your first job helps to show future employers that you're not a complete flake.
5. DO NOT TELL THEM. Seriously no need unless you plan to leave in much less than a year.
6. Short term travelling might be possible without leaving. I used all 4 weeks of my leave, plus a week carried forward from the previous year, to have a 5 week paid vacation. I'd been at the company 3 years at that point, though.
Sigs are so 1990s. No way would I be seen dead with one.