Mandrake Clarifies its Future

fabiolrs writes "Mandrake Linux has an article in response to the message they sent on march 11th. They claim that because of user help they are "cash-flow positive"! That is great news since Linux community is now sure it will continue using one of the nicest distros available!"

Comments

Awesome

[mckeowbc]

I love Mandrake. It's ease of use, and painless install are the only reasons that I have been able to convert my girlfriend, her roomate, and one of her college suitemates to Linux. It's config tools are nice and easy to understand. And it comes bundled with software that people actually want. It was also my first distro. But now I'm on to Debian. Ahh...memories. Long live Drake!

Cash flow positive...

[fruey]

...does not mean profitable.

Great news anyway though, true Linux hackers may never install Mandrake, they'll have their own build. But a friendly install, etc (Mandrake is good on this point) has to cost time and effort from hackers who would perhaps rather be doing something else.

Still, I won't be in Mandrake club :)

Re:Cash flow positive...

[red5]

Still, I won't be in Mandrake club :)

Also how long will people remain club members?
What happens when the novelty wears off?

Re:Cash flow positive...

[friedmud]

As someone who is "subscribed" to another "club"(www.transgaming.com) of the same sort - I can say that as long as positive
things are happening and progress is being made people will continue to pay.

Over at Transgaming over the past month there has been a lot of grumbling (read as people saying they are going to unsubscribe) because everyone wants release 2.0 - So the developers had to put a little more time into quieting the masses by giving regular reports about what is being worked on (I use the term "regular" loosely as TG still doesn't have this totally under control). And because of this almost all of the original subscribers are still there - because there is a feeling of progress.

If Mandrake ever ceases to progress - that is the point where people will begin jumping ship. Up until that point I am sure that the club members will feel as if their money is well spent.

Derek

Re:Cash flow positive...

[bhsx]

From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) :

Mandrake \Man"drake\, n. [AS. mandragora, L. mandragoras, fr.
Gr. ?: cf. F. mandragore.]
1. (Bot.) A low plant ({Mandragora officinarum) of the
Nightshade family, having a fleshy root, often forked, and
supposed to resemble a man. It was therefore supposed to
have animal life, and to cry out when pulled up. All parts
of the plant are strongly narcotic. It is found in the
Mediterranean region.

And shrieks like mandrakes, torn out of the earth,
That living mortals, hearing them, run mad. --Shak.

Note: The mandrake of Scripture was perhaps the same plant,
but proof is wanting.

I like the 'often forked' line, as I'm planning my own.

Re:Cash flow positive...

[room101]

I don't think many people care what the name itself means. I mean, who really knows what the word "Dell" is supposed to mean. It is just a label that people affix to companies.

Of course, if it means something bad, that is different matter altogether. (I would name my company "Piece of Crap Software" ;-)

Re:Cash flow positive...

[pivo]

can anyone articulate what a "Madrake" is?

Yes it's a Mediterranean herb (Mandragora officinarum) of the nightshade family with ovate leaves, yellowish or purple flowers, and a large forked root traditionally credited with human attributes b : the root of a mandrake formerly used especially to promote conception, as a cathartic, or as a narcotic and soporific

Go and catch a falling star, Get with child a mandrake root
Donne

Re:Cash flow positive...

[blab]

I believe that Mandrake's financial forcasts show them reaching profitability this fall...

This was a short-term cash crunch which is not the same as losing money.

Re:Cash flow positive...

[Amazing Quantum Man]

I always thought it was after "Mandrake the Magician". Since the logo appears to be a magic wand...

Re:Cash flow positive...

[Afrosheen]

I subscribed to TG back in december and recently got an email telling me my subscription expired. I won't be renewing it...the least they could've done in 3 months is released some beta rpms of 1.4, 1.5 or whatever mark they were up to each month.

Add to that the annoyance of their CVS being broken half the time (throwing in an update -dPA nets you the rest of what you need) is even worse. I like what TG started but why call something a 2.0 if there was no 1.9? They won't be getting any more of my cash.

Re:Cash flow positive...

[Afrosheen]

Once all the BS from the Microsoft lawsuit-o-rama is finished, maybe OEM's will have the freedom to offer their customers an alternative to the monopoly. I'm sure you read about what happened to Dell for offering Redhat on some machines, no other vendor wants to deal with that sort of backlash from M$.

Re:Cash flow positive...

[Afrosheen]

That bears zero relation to the distro. They use magic wands and stars everywhere in reference to Mandrake the Magician. Hit google sometime.

Re:Cash flow positive...

[Afrosheen]

Well and then you have dragons known as mandrakes as well. The french are wacky, who knows what they originally intended..but the top hat and gloves they've used suggests Mandrake the Magician, along with the magic wand.

As seen in last weeks SlashBack

[Havokmon]

Right Here I was wondering why that didn't make the Front Page

Cashflow

[iceT]

So, I wonder what they will do to make sure that they are 'cash-flow positive' from now on? Or will the always be relying on 'user contributions'?

Personally, I'd rather give money to RedHat (or maybe SuSe). They seem to be working hard to get Linux accepted in business. Mandrake is very desktop focused, and that is probably the weakest area to forge a business model.. (IMHO)

Re:Cashflow

[joestar]

I totally disagree with you! :-) In my IT environment I can see more and more companies using Mandrake. You know, Windows 2000 is very focused on the desktop, but companies use it as a server ;-) This is the advantage of Mandrake: it's solid and reliable, which is needed for servers use, and it's very friendly as well, which is needed for a large adoption. I think you should have a look at Mandrake Business Cases to see how much Mandrake is used in the industry.

Mandrake's Future

[Scholasticus]

While I think the whole business about the 'Star Office-for-silver-members' was a complete FUBAR on MandrakeSoft's part, it looks like raising revenue by offering membership in the Mandrake Club could actually work for them. Many OSS companies have gone down the tubes by basing their business model on selling services and tech support. If Mandrake doesn't make it, another user-friendly GNU/Linux distro will take up the slack.

Re:Mandrake's Future

[Amazing Quantum Man]

No, you should go here for slack.

Its somewhat depressing...

[Qwerpafw]

I am glad for mandrake, and quite amazed at the amount of kindness shown by people online... (i.e. sending in money)

However, it is somewhat disheartening that their software has to be supported by donations. Sympathetic users just don't make a good substitute for a sound business plan.

Anyways, I hope they keep up the good work. (and maybe develop a better way to make $$) They're not my distro of choice, but they are quite good.

Re:Its somewhat depressing...

[sulli]

Why don't they just become a nonprofit, public benefit corporation? I presume there is an equivalent to 501(c)3 over there in France, and then users could contribute in good conscience (why give money to a for-profit company?!).

Re:Its somewhat depressing...

[mir]

I do not think they have that option. In any case the rules are different in France, it is much harder for a non-profit to be able to receive before-tax donations. You really have to be out to cure cancer or something similar (as this is /. maybe I should specify that some-unnamed-monopolistic-company-from-redmont is not considered cancer here ;--). So it makes sense for them to be a corporation, at least companies can expense the club membership/donation.

Re:Its somewhat depressing...

[MCZapf]

... sound business plan.

A lot of people keep saying this, but what on Earth does that mean? It seems to me that people just want Mandrake to conjure up something (boxed sets, support, etc.) and slap a price tag on it. I don't think this is necessarily any better than getting "donations" from users, other than the fact that businesses prefer fixed payments up front.

The word "donations" is misleading anyway. I'll bet most people who send money to Mandrake are themselves Mandrake users, who consider the money not a donation, but a form of belated payment. I myself use Mandrake Linux, and am considering joining the Mandrake Club (whatever it's called). I certainly don't mind paying. I was never under the illusion that Linux distributions are truely free (in that they require money and manpower to produce).

In conclusion, I think getting donations (aka belated payments) from users is a perfectly fine survival plan. As for business plans, well, I don't know.

Re:Its somewhat depressing...

[joestar]

It's absolutely not a donation system. It's a service that allows a commercial company to make business with Free Software, which makes a lot of sense. You know, I seriously doubt that StarOffice 6.0 (final) which is available for download at MandrakeClub hasn't been charged by Sun to MandrakeSoft!!

Re:Its somewhat depressing...

[Omnifarious]

I think you persist in willfully misunderstanding their business plan in the service of the "You can't make money selling Libre Software" meme.

I use RedHat, and religiously buy a new box with every release so they get money and it stays on retail shelves. I know I don't _have_ to, but in my own cost/benefit analysis, the money I spend on their boxes is well worth it. I'm not making a 'donation', I'm consciously investing in my own future. I'm investing in the security updates I know I'll recieve. I'm investing in the next version that I know they are working on. RedHat has earned my trust in this regard, and I know that to continue to produce the things I need and/or treasure, they need my support.

It's not free software, it's Libre software. It takes time, and effort to produce. The people who put in that time and effort need to eat as much as the rest of us. When people like you spread the 'donation' meme, you devalue their work and falsely give the impression that it's voluntary and a 'gift' when what it really is is an investment in the future of a product you use daily.

Re:Its somewhat depressing...

[ishark]

I am glad for mandrake, and quite amazed at the amount of kindness shown by people online... (i.e. sending in money)

KINDNESS?
I fear you don't understand.
I don't have the time to build and keep up-to-date my personal distribution, so I'm paying someone (Mandrake) for the service. It's not kindness on my part but pure and simple egoism. If they sink I'll be forced to switch distro, and after toying with RH, Slack, Debian and Mandrake I've decided for Debian in the server/stable-to-death department and Mandrake in the desktop/lotsa-new-gizmo-apps department.

Mandrake Club or donation is not charity, it's PAYING FOR A SERVICE. And this looks to me a quite sound business model. The weird idea that a good busines model means you must "force" people to pay, Microsoft-style, indicates that there's still a long way to go before the idea of "free software" is understood and appreciated.

Re:Its somewhat depressing...

[tempest303]

MOD PARENT UP!

I agree with this completely - if only more people understood this point of view.

Re:Its somewhat depressing...

[Arandir]

I use RedHat, and religiously buy a new box with every release so they get money and it stays on retail shelves. I know I don't _have_ to...

This is called "donation". It's an act of charity. Charity as a business model is silly.

There's nothing wrong with donating to Redhat. I donate regularly to Slackware and FreeBSD through subscriptions. I even donated through PayPal after Windriver kicked Slackware out. But that doesn't mean that I harbor any beliefs that charity is a valid business model.

Re:Its somewhat depressing...

[Omnifarious]

When an investment house floats an IPO and gives the IPOing company millions of dollars, it's not called charity because they expect a direct return on their investment greater than the invested money. The same when I buy copies of RedHat or sign up for subscriptions. I'm investing in the future of the software I use. I expect greater returns in terms of usable software than the money I put in. If I didn't put this money in, I would not get the software I wanted because it would stop being made.

It's not charity. Charity is an investment in the world around you that you expect no direct repayment for. You expect some sort of vague repayment in that if you make your society a better one somehow, you will reap those benefits too, but there's no way to determine an ROI in any reasonable sense.

The money I give to RedHat has a direct ROI. I'm getting something measurable for my money. Sure, I _may_ get some of that value if I don't invest, but if nobody invested no value would be created, and I'd be much worse off than I was before.

Re:Its somewhat depressing...

[Arandir]

I expect greater returns in terms of usable software than the money I put in.

There are two big flaws in your argument. First, what happens when Redhat finally puts out usable software? Do you stop "investing" because your goal has been reached? Eventually any business is going to have to leave childhood (the investment stage) and enter adulthood (the making money all on your own stage). Investment as a long term business plan is known in most circles as a "ponzi scheme".

The second problem is what distinguishes charities from investments: The Free Rider Problem. The classic example is the lighthouse. All the ship captains want a lighthouse. But if one individual captain finances the lighthouse, all the other captains get the use of it for free. This leads to much resentment. Some captains will reason that even though they can afford to build the lighthouse, it is financially worthwhile to wait a little bit to see if someone else steps up to the plate first. The common solution to the problem, unfortunately, is some form of coercion, usually taxation.

In terms of Redhat, you can "invest" all you want, but you end up subsidizing all those who don't invest. This may be okay for you and many others. But for most people it is not. So they download it for free or buy the $2 Cheapbytes version and let you finance the improvements.

There are two solutions to this problem. One is coercion, and it is the method that RMS advocates. He wants a software tax to finance free software development. But there is a much friendly solution. Realize that free software is indeed free beer along with being free "speech", and stop trying to sell it. Find something else to sell instead. It might be services, support, proprietary addons, or even plush Tux dolls, but you'll go broke selling free software.

Re:Its somewhat depressing...

[Galvatron]

Here's why it won't work: First of all, in a crisis situation, people will react. Just look at the absurd blood donation levels after Sept. 11th. Yet despite how well people react in a crisis, maintaining those levels is impossible (witness the perpetual blood shortages we have, and this is something that doesn't even cost the donors anything).

The second reason is that Mandrake exists in a competitive market. If Mandrake nags you to donate, but Red Hat is happy to have home users freeload, then all other things being equal Red Hat will come out on top.

Re:Its somewhat depressing...

[Omnifarious]

There are two big flaws in your argument. First, what happens when Redhat finally puts out usable software? Do you stop "investing" because your goal has been reached? Eventually any business is going to have to leave childhood (the investment stage) and enter adulthood (the making money all on your own stage). Investment as a long term business plan is known in most circles as a "ponzi scheme".

The thing about software that makes Open Source work, is that it's never finished. There will always be more to add to it. And if the program has gotten so big and crufty that there's nothing to add, then there's a new, smaller program to take it's place and have stuff added to it.

The ponzi scheme analogy is also not correct because at every step of the way you get return on your investment in the form of usable software. It becomes more usable over time, giving you further return on your continuing investment. Usable software is a process, not a destination.

There are two solutions to this problem. One is coercion, and it is the method that RMS advocates. He wants a software tax to finance free software development. But there is a much friendly solution. Realize that free software is indeed free beer along with being free "speech", and stop trying to sell it. Find something else to sell instead. It might be services, support, proprietary addons, or even plush Tux dolls, but you'll go broke selling free software.

When I buy a piece of free software, I'm not buying the software. I'm buying the future of that software. Software is much more like the lighthouse maintainer than the lighthouse. It ages with time. Security flaws are found, new capabilities are needed, new environments need to be supported. Software always needs work. In fact, software has very little initial capital investment. Linux was created by one man in Finland while he was a student at a University. Now, of course, Linux has a huge number of people contributing lots of time and energy to it.

The simple thing is, you have the wrong model stuck in your head. You think of a piece of software as a lighthouse, which has a huge initial capital investment and gives its rewards over the years with very little additional funding. Software is not like that at all. It requires a tiny capital investment, and ever increasing investment over the years to keep it up-to-date, bug free, and have the features required for today.

Re:Its somewhat depressing...

[Omnifarious]

Why don't you just admit that you're paying for someone to continue to update and improve the software instead of playing all these stupid semantic games?

Great project, great company!

[joestar]

I see Mandrake/MandrakeSoft as today's real innovators in the Free Sofware world. First they totally changed the approach of Linux distributions makers by giving more importance to ease of use for instance. Secondly, they have a business approach which is *very* innovative. I can feel something about Mandrake, I don't know exactly what, which looks like the best approach around here to conciliate business and Free Software while always keeping 100% compatibility with Free Software.

The Mandrake Club is a great way to monetize a user base as large as Mandrake users. It provides many advantages such as StarOffice 6.0 (final version!) which has not even been released just because Sun seemed to believe in this club and wanted to give it a boost... The Club is also a great "tool" for users to ensure that MandrakeSoft will keep on delivering great products such as the excellent Mandrake 8.2 (which I use mostly on servers, but which is so nice as well to replease Windows on my laptop!).

Great project, great company - you've got my support guys!! :-)

Re:Great project, great company!

[cavemanf16]

I use Mandrake 8.2 at home now on a dual-boot, Linux/Win2k machine. I was incredibly impressed with the ease of installation and support for all of my hardware that came with this latest distribution from Mandrake. It was a big leap from 8.1. It is not 100% perfect, but then again, I have to download and configure drivers for Win2k also to get it working to its optimum level of performance too. I may be a Linux geek, but not by a whole lot. I certainly don't love the command line for a lot of things. I'm a visual person, and for me, the GUI is where it's at, but Mandrake has both worlds of Linux covered very well in my opinion.

I've seen, and tried to install, other Linux distributions, but I keep coming back to Mandrake's product. Right now, if it weren't for all of the great games in Windows, I'd be using Linux exclusively at home. Mozilla runs great, XMMS is up to par, sound, networking, video, graphics - they all exist on Linux, and from my experience, when configured correctly, run twice as fast as the Windows bloatware. Even my "Word" documents saved in the OpenOffice 641 format are 2-5 times smaller in size than the actual MS Word format!

You may ask, well what has it *actually* cost you to learn and run Linux? - Answer: A lot of time reading How-To's (which I love to do), a lot of time configuring the OS (which I love to do), and a cable broadband connection @ $44.95/mth (which I'd be using in Windows anyways). Free? Not exactly. Fun? For me, absolutely.

Re:Great project, great company!

[joestar]

I think your question makes sense. However the Mandrake Club is about providing privileges to its users. The first "privilege" is to support Mandrake Free-Software developments, which has great consequences (the more you give the Mandrake Club, the more they can put ressources in development/QA/Free Software support such as KOffice, Linux kernel...). The second privilege is about software people use and are interested in, but which aren't available as Free-Software yet. I'm personally against proprietary software, but I've downloaded StarOffice 6.0 final from the Club, as well as Mozilla plugins packaged for Mandrake (Real player 8.0, Flash player...). In this sense, this is a privilege, because I would have passed time to find and download those pieces of software anyway. With the Club, I just downloaded them and now I'm using them. Other privileges include some interesting talks with MandrakeSoft founders and Mandrake developers. But other privileges are yet to come! The Club is very young and is growing depending on users needs/requets... It's a nice interface between us - the Mandrake users - and the Mandrake Linux project.

Re:Great project, great company!

[sydb]

Nobody is.
I think these people are, and these too though they won't answer my emails..

Have a look at the Free Software Services Directory for more people/companies who appear to be cashing in on Free Software.

Re:Great project, great company!

[Afrosheen]

Where's the humor in this, oh crack smoking moderators with a +5 funny rating? This is serious. I use mdk8.2 on more than a few servers. From stability to security Mandrake has it down.

Know any other desktop-friendly distros that don't want you to be root in a window manager or don't install telnet server by default because it's a security risk?

Re:Great project, great company!

[Arandir]

Have a look at the Free Software Services Directory [gnu.org] for more people/companies who appear to be cashing in on Free Software.

They appear to be making money off of services. And the vast majority of the listing are individual consultants and contractors. This is a very different thing from making money by selling a product. I have absolutely no qualms about companies selling services, support, hardware or other addons as a means of supporting their free software end. But they (whoever they are) should at least stop calling themselves a free software company and start calling themselves a service, support, hardware or addon company.

I don't see much in the way of service and support for Mandrake. They seem to be going to classical "sell a prepackaged distribution of free software" route. This worked quite well for some companies a few years ago. If Mandrake expects to go this route in now, when high speed internet access and CD burners are cheap and common, they'll soon go the way of Walnut Creek CDROM. They can't subsist on donations alone.

If Mandrake wishes to sell a product, then it needs to be a product that one can't get elsewhere for free, as either open source or freeware. If the product is software, then that means the software has to be proprietary. An Aladdin type model might work here, where the current Mandrake is proprietary, but older versions are free. Otherwise, they need to think about selling service, support, etc.

Re:Great project, great company!

[sydb]

I agree with everything you say except I don't see what's wrong with a service and support company calling itself a Free Software company if it sells service and support (primarily) for Free Software.

One of the nicest distros

[Daimaou]

"That is great news since Linux community is now sure it will continue using one of the nicest distros available!"

I agree that the Mandrake installer is nice, but I think when you compare installed systems instead of installers, you just can't get any easier or better than Debian.

Keeping your system current takes only two commands (apt-get update, apt-get dist-upgrade). If you need a graphical apt tool, then I would suggest Synaptic.

Re:One of the nicest distros

[dhogaza]

The quote says "one of the nicest", not "the nicest".

Why do Debian users have to post "Debian's better" to every thread on a linux distro that shows up on Slashdot, regardless of whether or not anyone in the thread talks about which distro is superior?

Maybe Debian's "the nicest" and maybe Mandrake's only "second or third nicest". In common English usage this still leaves Mandrake as being "one of the nicest".

Re:One of the nicest distros

[mickwd]

Just two commands, eh ? That would seem to be twice as many commands as just running 'MandrakeUpdate'.

And it's graphical - no need to get hold of another utility from somewhere......

Of course, not everyone likes graphical installers - so you have the option of using 'urpmi' instead.

And it's not just official patches and bugfixes - your can download development packages from Cooker (Mandrake's development packages) too - if you dare...

Re:One of the nicest distros

[Afrosheen]

Functionalities is plural sir. Urpmi is almost identical to apt-get with the exception of the rebuild from source, just like the previous person said. That's one function, not many. So an accurate rephrasing of your statement would be "Well then Mandrake urpmi does not provide the exact same functions as apt wouldn't you say?" or better yet, "Well then Mandrake urpmi is missing a single feature that apt-get has, which is rebuilding a source rpm."

The previous poster said you were trolling with apt because 95% of 'Debian is better than x because' arguments involve apt-get. The fact remains that urpmi is comparable to apt-get.

Unfortunately looks like Fry's does not have it an

[spitzak]

I have Mandrake on my machine, and I even joined their club in order to support them. But I would like to upgrade my machine and I don't have DSL so I would like to buy a boxed set. But it looks like Fry's (big chain out here in California) has stopped carrying it (and they have not abandoned Linux, they still have RedHat and SUSE). I could shop around, but the fact that they have disappeared from the store I bought it from is alarming.

Out of curiosity...

[Sheetrock]

The linked article mentions that selling Mandrake company shares directly to users isn't feasible for a couple of reasons, but if Mandrake hypothetically got a wild hair and decided to do an offering in the U.S. what kind of hoops would they have to jump through setting it up?

Mandrake is Free! But we need you to donate!

[Izeickl]

Although this is good news, does this not curb the "free" aspect? i.e look at this wonderful free OS, but we cant keep it going unless the users pay for it.. I know, at least the payments are done out of "love" for the OS and not simply forced upon a user, but still, I find it kind of funny and ironic. For all the hate that goes towards marketing people etc etc, I think they are needed to sell Linux to the main stream, no matter how good a coder you are, or how good the product is, Geeks dont make good sales people. No matter if it costs money or not, you still have to sell the idea of Linux.

Re:Mandrake is Free! But we need you to donate!

[xanadu-xtroot.com]

i.e look at this wonderful free OS, but we cant keep it going unless the users pay for it.

Wow. and this is getting modded up...

Anyway, you must have an IQ about equal to your shoe size. You're arguement against all this is the EXACT FREAKIN' POINT. If we (MDK users/Linux community) don't give them a few bucks here and there, how the hell do you expect them to keep a office building open to even TRY to figure out how to keep their programmer's bellys full?

Geeks dont make good sales people.

And pigs don't fly. Why do you think they have a marketing department? Do you think the packagers (or whomever) are making these decisions?

Re:Mandrake is Free! But we need you to donate!

[swillden]

Although this is good news, does this not curb the "free" aspect?

Nope, not a bit. Mandrake is still Free Software. Even if I *had* to pay to get a copy of Mandrake, I could still read/modify/share/sell/whatever the code to my heart's content (as long as I included the code whenever I gave it away).

The "Free" in "Free Software" has nothing to do with being zero cost.

Geeks dont make good sales people.

Generally true, unless you're selling to geeks.

For all the hate that goes towards marketing people etc etc, I think they are needed to sell Linux to the main stream

Absolutely true.

Re:Mandrake is Free! But we need you to donate!

[Xzzy]

> does this not curb the "free" aspect?

No, not at all. "Free software" isn't about not making money for something, or about not paying for it. It's about putting software into the hands of people that can't, or are not yet willing, to pay for their software.

In any community that has a sizable portion of "fans", there is always going to be a component that will quite willingly donate money to their chosen cause. This does not however imply that everyone has to pay.

A semi-decent analogy would be the whole mp3 argument. People broadcast daily that they buy more CD's now because they got to hear the songs for free at first. Stuff starts out free (not neccesarily legal to distribute you but you know what I mean) and those who feel like it has value put in a few dollars to support the creator.

That's what free beer software should be, giving people the freedom to put their own value on it and act accordingly.

Re:Mandrake is Free! But we need you to donate!

[OverCode@work]

Yes, they do ask for donations, so technically Mandrake may not be free as in beer. More like "drop $1 in the bucket if you take a beer; honor system."

But it's definitely free as in speech, which is much more important, in my opinion. You can install Mandrake on all your systems, reconfigure it in any way you want, recompile it, reverse engineer it, publish performance benchmarks (I still can't believe some EULA's ban that), burn a CD for a friend, etc. All that's asked is that, in return, you help support Mandrake.

Sure, I'll pay $20 or whatever to make sure that kind of freedom remains economically viable. What we're seeing is the collision of a non-idealist system (capitalism) with an idealist one (free software), and there will by definition be some dissonance.

-John

Re:Mandrake is Free! But we need you to donate!

[Arandir]

Wow. and this is getting modded up...

Yep, it's getting modded up because he's making a valid point. Too bad your mind is so closed you can't even recognize the fact that other people's opinions are just as valid as yours.

If we (MDK users/Linux community) don't give them a few bucks here and there, how the hell do you expect them to keep a office building open to even TRY to figure out how to keep their programmer's bellys full?

In plain english, what you are saying is "businesses need investments in order to get off the ground." That is true. Very true. But completely irrelevant.

Mandrake Club members are not making investments in MandrakeSoft. They are making donations. There's a very big difference between the two. Before I make an investment there are two things I must know: how will the company be making money in the future and what will be my rate of return?

Here's a true story. Once upon a time a bunch of companies swindled their investors in an elaborate ponzi scheme. These companies were called dot.coms. They would line up a bunch of investors, promise them fabulous returns, then spend their money on frills. When the money ran out, they lined up another group of investors, took their money, paid off their first group, and spent the rest. In the meantime the first group told everyone about the wonderful returns they were getting. Pretty soon the pyramid got too big for its base and the whole thing collapsed.

Mandrake's plan is a bit more honest, in that they aren't promising any returns on the donations. But the end result will be the same. They can't live on charity forever. They need to come up with a sound viable business plan, or they need to stop pretending and become a nonprofit like Debian.

Re:Mandrake is Free! But we need you to donate!

[Chris Johnson]

Whoa- the Free in Free Software has this much to do with being zero cost- it's about liberating software IDEAS and presenting no barrier whatever to people being able to use them. It's 'language-izing' software, hopefully to the point where it's completely fluid and if you see an 'eloquent' expression of software, you can take from it and learn from it and use what you want of it.

This doesn't mean you can't still do things that are worth paying for- hell, I could carry heavy boxes for you and that'd be worth paying for, and some software writing is decidedly heavy lifting. But it does mean that it is not acceptable to disdain people who do not pay money for software- and totally not acceptable to devise ways to use money as a condition for being able to use the software.

For this reason it's hard to see how Free software can be anything other than free- if you're talking about 'develop something for me!' you're talking about a person's labor and effort, which is distinct. The resulting software, once devised, can well be Free without changing the fact that you needed to bargain with someone in order to get them to produce it.

As for selling Linux to the mainstream: this is not a software marketing job. It is a public relations job- even a political/ideological job. It calls for a manifesto more than a salesman. Rather than selling people on a value proposition, you are trying to persuade them that what they THINK they are paying for isn't what they're really paying for- that they've a perfect right to use software as if it was language and slice and dice it as they please, and when they pay for software what they're really paying for is the result of someone who 'speaks software' far better than they can. They're paying for a process, not a product. Software isn't an object. It's a verb- and a temporary adaptation to a given set of technological circumstances- a Rosetta Stone embodying an idea in statements that have functional effect. It's far more like language than manufacturing.

Selling this concept to the mainstream would mean convincing them that they might have expressions of their own- even if it's as simple as changing the color of their title-bar, or putting up wallpaper. The point at which a 'mainstream' person goes 'it looks like the walls of my room are painted... THIS color' and puts in their OWN data to set the color of the window border, is the point at which they begin 'speaking software' rather than always assuming they must get someone else to do it for them.

Re:Unfortunately looks like Fry's does not have it

[garcia]

why can't you purchase it online or have someone else w/broadband DL and burn it for you?

club only FTP mirror

[asv108]

As a mandrake club member, I think there would be twice as many members if they had a members-only FTP mirror. What good is a club membership if you have to wait with the non-members for the new releases? It's like joining a private a golf club and finding out that it is open to the public for less than what the members pay.

Cringely's Column

[maggard]

From the latest ROBERT X. CRINGELY: "Notes from the Field" column:

Linux' so-called freedom

Mandrake Linux came under fire last week for trying to redefine "free," as in free software, by charging corporate users a sizable support fee before permitting them to download its distribution of the open source Linux software. One of my spies gave them a chance nonetheless and ordered the professional edition of Linux, but to little avail. The thing is, Mandrake's system accepted and charged my spy's American Express instantaneously, but never sent the software. What's more, Mandrake's sales and support cannot track the order, leaving my spy without the software and the money.

Look like Mandrake may be having some financial growing pains, hope they don't burn too many of their newly paying customers.

Best Buy

[asv108]

Well every Best Buy has mandrake boxes, plus a few other distros, and they are a nationwide chain.

Why the attitude of some users....

[linuxrunner]

Here's a quote from a prior post:

If Mandrake doesn't make it, another user-friendly GNU/Linux distro will take up the slack.

No offense to anyone, but is this the type of attitude we're supposed to have in the opensource community? Is this the best we can do? Just to have a revolving door, of when they don't make it, someone else will do it, until they fall too... repeat.

Are you that cheap?

The Open Source community should be about sharing code, sharing to make better, sharing to contribute, sharing to learn from... But not sharing to mooch off of.

I say go ahead and mooch at first. Learn about the product, etc... but if you like it, then support it. I know most MDK users are fanatics. I am one. I also know redhat users are fanatics, I am also one.
I support both buy purchasing future releases off of the web sites. I know the iso's are there... But I choose to support the distro's so they'll be there in the future with a BETTER product.

MDK needed help so they had to ask for money, yet people mock them for it.
MDK is not making star office 6.0 free since sun is not making it free, and people mock them.

Are you a linux user or not?

Are you going to support the cause? Or just talk about it?

Re:Why the attitude of some users....

[iabervon]

(My reason for not supporting Mandrake is not what I'm about to say, but that I disagree with the rest of the computer industry on what is friendly to users)

I think that much of the point of the open source community is that, if someone doesn't make it, anything they managed lives on, and the next people start out that much better. If MandrakeSoft didn't make it, anyone who was interested would continue what they'd started. The point is to not be dependent on the business success of a company for whether you can use your software.

The open source community is much more about the people and their work than about the companies. It's likely that if MandrakeSoft went under, their developers would actually end up working on other user-friendly GNU/Linux distros, bringing with them what they'd done at MandrakeSoft.

Of course, it's better for everyone if MandrakeSoft doesn't go under, because dealing with that would slow down the process, and not everyone who worked on Mandrake would end up doing the same thing elsewhere.

In this economy, there's going to be a revolving door of companies that fail due to mismanagement, profit-taking, bad luck, or whatever. The real cause is in making progress anyway, and it is possible because all of a company's work doesn't die with it.

Furthermore, the open source world is really driven by trying to make things which are actually better. If something isn't better and doesn't show promise of being better, it's not going to get anywhere. In the case of a user-friendly distribution, there's really no point in supporting one that isn't popular, since, if users don't like it, it's not actually user-friendly.

That said, I'm glad to hear MandrakeSoft is doing well, because they actually promote Linux, which is a need that the open source community isn't good at filling. Marketting is generally thought of as a black art, but it's obviously in everyone's interest if it is done well.

Re:Why the attitude of some users....

[Chris Johnson]

Hmm.

Define 'mooch'.

If software is 'functional ideas' are you arguing that people should not have a right to have ideas without paying for them?

Is that the attitude we're supposed to have in the FREE software community? Free as in 'nothing is stopping you from having this'? Would you rather there was an understanding that you should only have 'software expressions of ideas' if you satisfy someone else's condition by paying them?

That is of course the slippery slope leading directly to a condition of proprietary software.

Nobody is OBLIGED to help Mandrake. Bluntly, it's not my job as a free software developer to help them get money. It is my job as a free software developer to extend to them, and anyone else of like spirit, permission to use my software ideas to develop their software ideas and so on. It is my job to give them PERMISSION to build on what I do- permission that under copyright is not automatically given.

The whole POINT is that they are expected to be able to freely use what I put out there! Why on earth should they, simply because they call themselves a business, be given MORE than what any free software developer has? This is being unclear on the concept.

When you say what the community 'should' be about: sharing to make better is your privilege, you may also share stuff and make it worse if that pleases you. Sharing to contribute is very important but to what, specifically, are you referring? Sharing to learn from is very important if you wish to learn. But 'not mooching'? Your whole perspective here is terribly wrong.

Your whole perspective on what it means to 'support' the 'cause' is terribly wrong.

The river is to drink from. Cup your hand and grab all you want. Watch carefully and see if you can spot the hole left by what you have taken from it...

Now, let's have no more of this bad attitude towards people who are thirsty and want to drink from the river. The more the merrier.

More "Community" Companies Need To Try This

[EXTomar]

Consider the plight of Loki Games and Ezeal. If they would have stepped forward and asked everyone in the Linux community for a little extra help they may have not gone under. If nothing else quietly slipping into the night is not the way to go.

There is a warning though: although this is a great way to get people invovled and save some worth while endevors it does not fix broken management. The danger is that even with extra cash broken management will still make bad decision and may end up using this help as a crutch.

Re:More "Community" Companies Need To Try This

[Xerithane]

Well, not to sound doomy and gloomy but Eazel never had a market to work with. Every single linux user I know that nautilus was a piece of shit. I thought their business model was absolutely stupid, and asking the community to support them wouldn't work.

You have to offer a product people really want, Loki may have been able to do this. I doubt Eazel would have managed to survive more than a month with donations, not enough people wanted what they had to offer.

The reason why this model works with Mandrake is a lot of people want mandrake and want it to stick around.

Distro question.

[Picass0]

I'm a Red Hat user since 5.1. Red Hat was my first, and for the most part only, experience I've have with Linux.

At the risk of being labeled a troll, I have a genuine question: If I were to try out a new distro with my next build, what are my advantages in switching to Mandrake? How many people feel Mandrake is an upgrade? I'm interested in desktop use for the most part. I want maximum compatability, and Mardrake has a Red Hat legacy.

I also am aware that Mandrake is regarded by many as a "newbie" distro, and I am interested in progressing in my knowledge. What is a good "power distro" that features the advantages of Red Hat or Mandrake's distros?

Re:Distro question.

[LinuxGeek8]

One of the interesting things of Mandrake is the installer, which is really good.
It has about 5 filesystems available, it has raid and lvm, it is in a logical following order.

Also their draktools can be quite good. Some of them I like, some of them not so much.
One I like is Printerdrake. You can select which spooler you want (cups, lpr, lprng), and which drivers. It detects your printer (even during install) and suggests a driver. For my Epson 670 I have fairly good printing.
Actually, it was the first time I got Cups going. About a year ago I tried to set up Cups by hand, but i just didn't understand. I know how to set up lpd and ghostscript by hand, but Cups had horrible docs imo.

What is also interesting about Mandrake is that they have up-to-date software. And if you really want bleeding edge, and love debugging yourself, you can run Cooker, which is Mandrake-devel.

Re:Distro question.

[the_2nd_coming]

go with debian then. the installer is good (though it is char based) and the APT tools are better than anything in the RPM world.

if you want stability, you stick with the stable tree, if you want newer, you go with testing, and if you want the bleeding edge, go with unstable.
all available via apt-get.

Re:Distro question.

[benploni]

apt has nothing against rpm. I use it quite happilly on my RH 7.2 box. Seriously, APT rocks, especially when mixed with RPM support :-)

Re:Distro question.

[Afrosheen]

Mandrake advantages:

Easy installation on a wide variety of machines, support for alot of newer hardware as well as old machines.

Many filesystems to choose from.

Good desktop integration. Apps span all desktops so if you use Gnome, KDE, Enlightenment, Blackbox, or whatever, you always have the same menu synced up so all your apps are a click away.

Nice pentium optimizations for all packages. Redhat is stuck on i386 packages while mandrake has been i586 for years. This results in a 10-50% speed increase depending on the app, including the Advanced Extranet version of Apache, an excellent server that Mandrake ships with.

Mandrake tries to keep newbies from making stupid mistakes. You have to install rpms as root. KDE has a red desktop and almost no icons if you login as root. This discourages newbies from using a root desktop where it's easy to do lots of damage. Telnet server is not installed by default, you have to urpmi telnet to get it to install. That's good for security, and ssh is a default part of the install if you pick the server packages.

Fully customizable install. You can have a system install anywhere from 85 megs all the way to 2+ gigs. It depends on what you want. Also the installer knows what rpms depend on others so if you choose to remove packages from the install list it'll tell you what other packages depend on it so you won't end up with a broken system on your first install.

Up to date libraries and programs. Mandrake has been on the bleeding-edge as far as this goes for years. While some other distros are a pain in the ass to get the newest whatever running on, usually with Mandrake it's easy since all the libs are new.

Easy to update DURING INSTALL or post-install. During the install if you choose a mirror it'll hit the internet and get new packages for you. This was a brilliant move for mandrake because as bugs are found and squashed in 8.2, they can be added to this update list. Showstoppers can be squashed before you even boot into your fresh mandrake install for the first time. Post install updating is even easier, just open rpmdrake and click mandrake update. That's all it takes.

There are tons of more benefits but these are really the ones that shine IMHO.

Re:Distro question.

[WinterSolstice]

I recommend my approach: Visit a site with lists of all the distros (one was mentioned earlier in the replys)

Scrub the really experimental ones, scrub the really "gee-whiz" ones. Sorry, but they are rarely ready for prime time.

Then, when you're down to 2-3 that sound good, install them. I have a check-list that I use to see if I'm going to use an OS for awhile:

Does it have a good installation? Not just simple, but actually good?

Does it support multiple boot methods? Boot floppies, recovery floppies, multiple configs?

Is it easy for you to use your hardware on it?

Is the help easily available?

Do the games you want come for it?

Will they work anyway? (Yay WineX! http://www.transgaming.com )

Do you like the web browser?

Can you do your work easily, or are you always and looking for stuff?

Finally, does it network well?

These are what I use for all OSs. I've been using it since I chose between PC-DOS, MS-DOS, and DR-DOS. The web stuff was added later, of course :)

-WS

Re:Distro question.

[the_2nd_coming]

yeah well considering windows releases new
versions every 2 years or so, I don't realy
have a problem with that. bleeding edge is
not always the best thing to do, and if I am
getting my work done, I do not realy care if
my packages are a few releases behind. easpesialy
in todays state of afairs, the software is mature
enough to sustain usability for a longer period
of time.

New financial communiqu� here...

[joestar]

It's very interesting. It's on their corporate website only:
---
(...)
On a more global side, it seems important to note that we have been working to correct the difficult situation in which we found ourselves, following the strategic errors of the previous management team. The actions we have been carrying out have been in several areas:

1. Refocusing the company around our original business, and what we are best at. It seemed necessary that we return to our original activity at MandrakeSoft: implementing Mandrake Linux, and offering value-added products and services around this solution.

2. Lowering costs. This was necessary to bring us closer to financial stability, and took the form of removing unnessary expenses and reducing the head count. MandrakeSoft has gone from over 150 employees at the start of 2001 to less than 100 now.

3. Increasing revenue and margins. This is done by developing new sources of revenue, such as OEM sales, e-commerce, services, online subscription services such as the Club, and increasing our margin on traditional product lines.

January-March 2002 financial figures, which will show the results of this strategy, will be published shortly.
---
http://www.mandrakesoft.com/company/investors/news letter/april2002?wslang=en

Re:Not exactly a business model I'd like to rely o

[mgkimsal2]

Maybe they should strongarm PC makers into paying them $20 for each PC shipped, whether or not Mandrake is on that PC. That'd be a much better 'model' to have.

They can call it a 'club' or 'group' or whatever, but honestly, I can't see any other way for companies in their market to make money focusing just on a distribution. If they focused on training/consulting as well, that'd be a different story, and may be something they *should* do. But they're not doing it. They want to focus on making a distribution.

So how else do you make money from free software? You simply ask for it. In return, they give certain 'niceties' to people who pay. I don't think it's 'kindness' that motivates people - they want to support a product they like.

Problem with Mandrake Club

[jacobb]

I love mandrake, and have bought a couple boxed sets, because unlike a couple previous replies, I think that its work getting linux on the desktop is highly important.

The only problem with their club is that you must pay for an entire year at a time. The least you can pay is $60.... Now, I'm not too rich at all, but I really wouldn't mind paying $5 a month even if it was autobilled. I'd even pay $6 a month - the extra buck to cover extra credit card fees that they'd have.

Bottom line: I can afford $5 /mo but not $60 /year

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

They've lost me...

[Otter]

I was generally pleased when I tried out Mandrake 8.0. even if some of the "user-friendly" features got in my way more than they helped. I was hopeful about 8.1, but it turned out to be a headache, breaking supermount and giving me trouble with the development tools. I switched back to 8.0.

8.2 has been even a bigger pain in the ass for me. The update crashed during package installation forcing me to reinstall. Audio CD playback doesn't work, on a basic ATAPI drive. (Yes, sound does work.) Finally, when I decided to try Tuxracer, it or the dependant packages that came with it hosed X.

Yes, given time I could fix this stuff but I'm not going to. I'm downloading Skipjack ISOs instead and I'll go back to Red Hat if that works out.

(Once again, I gave Debian a try with no luck. I realize _someone_ gets it installed, but we're talking about a pretty vanilla system here - year and a half old Athlon/VIA/NVIDIA. I mean, I have code in that distro -- I should be able to install the damn thing.)

Mandrake == Workstation Distro

[javacowboy]

Personally, I'd rather give money to RedHat (or maybe SuSe). They seem to be working hard to get Linux accepted in business. Mandrake is very desktop focused, and that is probably the weakest area to forge a business model.. (IMHO)

I think it's EXTREMELY import for the future of desktop computing to have a strong desktop/workstation Linux distro. If for nothing else, this should provide the average desktop user with an actual choice over Windows. I haven't tried SuSE, but Mandrake seems to be the most user-friendly Linux distro that actually has a chance of gaining converts from Windows who are just normal desktop users. Without Mandrake, I think the rate of new Linux Windows converts would drop by almost a half.

Also, there are many businesses that need a good client-side development platform. For instance, Microcell, a Montreal-based cellular service provider, has Mandrake installed on all its development machines, especially for its Java developers. Any business that wants to develop software in a cross-platform environment would find such a distro to be extremely useful.

I, for one, prefer to develop in Linux, because of the rich command-line tools and environment, as well as the greater control over configuration files and settings. Windows is a poor platform for doing any command-line processing, even with cygwin. However, I also need a rich, user-friendly desktop environment with GUI configuration tools, should I require them. Mandrake, despite being somewhat bloated, comes with all these tools pre-configured and ready-to-use right out of the box. AFAIK, RedHat and other distros require quite a bit of initial configuration to get everything running just right.

I actually use Slackware at home, but that's because I can afford to play around with it. When I'm developing at work, I need something that will pretty much run out of the box, without being Windows. Mandrake is the distro I would use at work, were I not in a M$ environment (SourceSafe, Exchange Email Server, MCSE Network Admin) like I am now.

Has anyone else noticed...

[Uttles]

... that based on user attitudes/comments Mandrake seems to be the "macintosh" of the Linux world?

(intended as humor)

Re:Has anyone else noticed...

[Uttles]

NO I really didn't mean to get that much into it. I just noticed that most of the mandrake users' posts were something like "I'm a Mandrake fanatic" and "you'll never tear me away from my Mandrake"

Typical macintosh attitude, beleive me, I'm an ex-Mac fanatic. If I had the money to go get a G4 running OS X I probably still would be.

How to use some of that money

[DrXym]

I wish a distro - ANY distro - would invest some money in usability. Linux is never going to be ready for the desktop until someone sits 100 volunteers in front of a computer and asks them to do stuff - copy text, format a disk, connect to the internet etc. and implements the findings. There is no distro or UI (KDE/GNOME) which comes even remotely close to being user friendly as OS X or XP define it. The prize for the first distro to pull it off will be huge.

While experts can find their way around existing distros, mere mortals will rightly conclude that XP or OS X is a better choice for them simply because it doesn't put up barriers at every stage. Even little things as more task orientation, hiding advanced settings in secondary dialogs and removal of needlessly jargon filled alerts can do much to simplify a UI.

Re:How to use some of that money

[lkaos]

There is no distro or UI (KDE/GNOME) which comes even remotely close to being user friendly as OS X or XP define it.

Many would argue that Windows and the like have done exactly what you propose: define what is user friendly.

Of course, taking a total computer novice and sticking them in front of a RedHat machine and a Windows machine is likely to result in similiar confusion. It just so happens that most people know how to use Windows.

Does that mean Linux should try to replicate Windows? No. I don't want another Windows. If I wanted to use Windows, I'd use it.

I think RedHat's best move was to decide to focus on what Linux does well instead of trying to push it into a saturated market.

Mandrake is doomed. They have too much to lose placing all their eggs in the desktop basket.

Re:How to use some of that money

[jd142]

They have too much to lose placing all their eggs in the desktop basket

They do now offer a minimal install that comes in at around 65 megs. Combine that with the maximum security level and you've got the beginnings of a decent server. They just need to market it better.

Re:How to use some of that money

[oyenstikker]

"sits 100 volunteers in front of a computer"

100 people in front of one computer will never get anything accomplished.

Seriously though, If someone can get 100 computers in an organized setting, you'd get a lot of volunteers. You can't just sit them there though. Give them a task, and have some people who know the software (not people who wrote it) walk around with a notepad and take feedback. Watch the people. Tell them maximize a window, save a document in their personal folder, install a program, backup their work, change thier print setup, or play a cd; and note the first thing they try. Note the second thing they try. With XP or OSX, the second or third try they'll get it. With linux/KDE or linux/Gnome it will probably be the 4th or 5th. And not only because they've been trained to think windows or think mac.

Re:How to use some of that money

[DohDamit]

You dear sir, are speaking out your ass. Get it straight. Microsoft was born on the the desktop. Not the server. It moved to the server. If you want to take out Microsoft, you have to take it out by its roots in the desktop. Talk all you want about server software blah blah it won't matter if Linux doesn't get real facetime with the people who count: management. Do managers look at servers? No, they do not. They look at their laptops and desktops, their pda's and their uberphones. If you want to give Mandrake or any other distro a name, you do it where the people will see it's name.

Not to be rude.....

No one, and I mean no one(not even your mom, she's just being nice) gives a shit that your prefer Linux Redhat-style because of what Linux does well(nice ambiguous phrasing there, chief.) If you stick a novice in front of a typical Linux distro for a couple weeks, the productivity will be measurably equivalent to sticking them in front of a TRS-80. If you stick a novice in front of Windows *.* for a couple of weeks, you will get some documents, maybe some internet, maybe some freecell. If you stick a novice in front of OS X for a couple of weeks, you will have documents, e-mail, games, plenty of wasted time on the internet, and a genuine sense of comfortability.

Mandrake has it right: if it looks easy, that's half the way to being easy.

Re:How to use some of that money

[ReinoutS]

GNOME Usability Study Report 'nuff said.

Re:How to use some of that money

[Arandir]

I must respectfully disagree. I haven't used either OSX or WXP yet, but so far KDE blows the socks off of Win95/98/NT/2k in terms of user friendliness, usability and functionality.

I've used everything *but* Windows for the past twenty years. CPM, 44BSD, DOS, GeoWorks, OS/2, Linux, FreeBSD. But recently I've started using it. There were some games I wanted to use, and they're also making me use it at work now and then. Frankly, it sucks.

Most people who say Unix/Linux/BSD is too hard say so because they are used to Windows and not used to Unix. My situation is the opposite. I'm used to Unix but not to Windows. Windows is hard to use. It's inconsistant. It's clunky.

I can install most Linuces and every BSD with one single reboot at the end of the process. I can rebuild every piece of software except the kernel and never have to reboot. I upgraded from FreeBSD 4.4 to 4.5 with one reboot, and that included a fresh partitioning and format of the harddrive. Try that under Windows. I did a Windows install a couple of weeks ago and I had to reboot four times. Afterwards I had to reboot forevery driver and program I installed. This is ridiculous.

Under XFree86 I have to tell it what video card and monitor I have. That's easy. Under Windows it won't let you specify what your hardware is. It must guess instead. And it kept guessing wrong.

And configuration! Don't talk to me about ease of use until you've tried to configure a Windows system without knowing WindowsSpeak. Why do they hide all the necessary configuration stuff under layers and layers of badly designed dialogs? Why must it keep resetting all the values I type in by hand? Why can't they use plain English instead of their stupid euphemisms for god knows what? And what they hell's the difference between the hostname and the machine name, and is a group name the same as a domain name? Gah!

Finally, the desktop. Gnome and KDE win hands down. Frankly, the Windows desktop is a piece of shit. Windows under Windows won't snap to the edge or to other windows. You can't send them to the bottom of the window stack with a single mouse click. You don't have window rollups. You can't maximize vertically or horizontally. You don't have multiple desktops. Hell, it can't even display a JPG wallpaper without firing up an instance of Internet Explorer!

A few months ago my employer decided to standardize on Outlook. So our engineering department all got new PCs with Win2K installed next to their Solaris Sparc workstations. What a horrowshow! People who could write kernel drivers in their sleep couldn't figure this Windows thing out. The rest of the company looked at us like we were idiots because we didn't know what to do. IT was flabbergasted because we were asking questions they had never heard before.

"How do I ssh to stomper from Windows?"
"How do I enable plaintext in Outlook?"
"How do I turn on command completion in the DOS shell?"
"Where's vi, emacs, gcc, pine..."

"How do I get a static IP like I've got on my Sparc?" "You don't need one." "Then how to I log on remotely to my PC?" "Why would you want to?" "Because I might be in the lab." "Aargh! Why can't you guys be like everyone else and just do what you're told!"

I guess that's the big difference right there. Windows users are content with being told what to do. Unix users are only content if they are in charge of their system. Maybe Windows is user friendly to sheep, but it ain't user friendly to most other species.

Re:How to use some of that money

[reflective recursion]

Unix users are only content if they are in charge of their system.

That does not mean it should remain as it is. I for one would like to see some of the powerful CLI stuff migrate/evolve to a GUI. But it would be a complete waste of effort to do this with a Unix system. Windows may not be your idea of usability, but Unix is definately not mine.

You also complain about things which are almost Unix trademarks.

Why can't they use plain English instead of their stupid euphemisms for god knows what?

You have to be kidding me, right? cat, lpr, grep, sed, ln, ldd. Figuring out "man" took me at least a week. I still do not like to go near "info" unless I must.

Finally, the desktop. Gnome and KDE win hands down.

Is this a pathetic joke? They are both modeled after Windows. Replace the "K" icon and the foot icon with a "Start" icon and you have Windows GUI. But, it's not even as coherent as Windows. Not all X applications use the same widget set.

Windows is a completely different market than what you are probably in. Windows is for people who need to do spreadsheets, word processing, and home users who wish to play games or take on hobby-like multimedia projects. You think everyone who does not care about computers as you do, is part of the herd? This attitude is why progressive computer interfaces will never become widely used. In ten years I see people still piping ASCII text between command-line programs in a Unix clone. Perhaps we will finally be up to Unicode, but what difference would that even make? Nothing new, just a fatter pipe between _programs_. We will still be using stupid file/user/group permisions with brain-dead files on a very brain-dead OS. Where is the superior technology? Capabilities? Persistence? I'd really like less Unix-style control of my computer and more of a higher level control.

Re:How to use some of that money

[lkaos]

If you stick a novice in front of a typical Linux distro for a couple weeks, the productivity will be measurably equivalent to sticking them in front of a TRS-80.

I can tell you from experience that this isn't true. In fact, it is quite the opposite. Since entry level folks tend to not understand how to goof off on Linux or any Unix for that matter, they tend to spend more time on real work and are more productive. Of course, my experience is in software, I don't know if the same applies to other fields.

If you stick a novice in front of OS X for a couple of weeks, you will have documents, e-mail, games, plenty of wasted time on the internet, and a genuine sense of comfortability.

Can't say I've used OS X but I will say that I have never been a fan of the Mac interface. If they port it to x86, and offer it for a reasonable price - and without some silly EULA - I would install it to check it out.

BTW: RedHat has taken the model to foster what Linux is good at and they've been doing quite well. For all the people that say that Linux can't succeed without succeeding on the desktop, I say that they are full of crap.

Linux has already succeeded far beyond anyone could ever imagine. It did so by establishing a quality product that did it's job well. I wouldn' be so hestitant to deviate from this path - and I don't think many Linux folks are. If it takes 2 years to achieve a noticable desktop market, that's fine, because that means the product will be 2 years better. I'd rather wait 2 years and have a quality desktop then rush out MS-quality software as soon as possible. Isn't that why we use Linux in the first place?

Re:How to use some of that money

[J. J. Ramsey]

"Why can't they use plain English instead of their stupid euphemisms for god knows what?"

"You have to be kidding me, right? cat, lpr, grep, sed, ln, ldd."

I don't think he's talking about Windows not using standard Unix commands, but rather Windows using vague, supposedly user-friendly terms instead of the proper technical; in other words, not using jargon in a context where jargon actually makes communication clearer and simpler.

Re:How to use some of that money

[DohDamit]

I can tell you from experience that this isn't true. In fact, it is quite the opposite. Since entry level folks tend to not understand how to goof off on Linux or any Unix for that matter, they tend to spend more time on real work and are more productive. Of course, my experience is in software, I don't know if the same applies to other fields.
</snip>

You're still talking about developers. Developers are a very small portion of the population of desktop users. Even the incompetent developers I've met could get Windows or OS X. They sure as hell couldn't get a Unix environ.

<snip>
BTW: RedHat has taken the model to foster what Linux is good at and they've been doing quite well. For all the people that say that Linux can't succeed without succeeding on the desktop, I say that they are full of crap.
</snip>

The lack of substantive text is beginning to make me think I'm dealing with a troll. Please elucidate on this point in particular in any response.

<snip>
Linux has already succeeded far beyond anyone could ever imagine. It did so by establishing a quality product that did it's job well. I wouldn' be so hestitant to deviate from this path - and I don't think many Linux folks are. If it takes 2 years to achieve a noticable desktop market, that's fine, because that means the product will be 2 years better. I'd rather wait 2 years and have a quality desktop then rush out MS-quality software as soon as possible. Isn't that why we use Linux in the first place?
</snip>

So many things are wrong with this little block....let's nail a couple.

• Who's defining success in this case, the developer with an axe to grind, or someone with a business leaning to their definition?
• "It", meaning a singular Linux, did so? Get it straight. There is no "It" in this case. This is like saying the protestant church...doesn't work.
• Well, no shit you wouldn't deviate from a successful path to a quality product. But once again....who's sense of successful, the stinky guy in the basement, or the billionaire?
• Um, two years of waiting does not mean the product has increased in quality over the period of time.
• MS-Quality. Karma whoring, maybe, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
• There is no "we" that use "the Linux" and there never will be. Your desire for belonging to the gang is noted.

Your response is exactly the kind of response I expect from someone who has an axe to grind. Maybe I've been trolled, maybe you're clueless as to how to operate a business or invade a market. Whatever the case, the argument that the desktop is the way to the hearts of those who make the decisions stands unchallenged. Bring something real to the discussion.

Re:How to use some of that money

[mauddib~]

Is this a pathetic joke? They are both modeled after Windows. Replace the "K" icon and the foot icon with a "Start" icon and you have Windows GUI. But, it's not even as coherent as Windows. Not all X applications use the same widget set.

Please check out your sources better. The "Toolbar" in KDE has been around for a long while. Ideas of representing running applications with icons or buttons have been around long before Windows was even thought of.

No, not all applications under X use the same toolkit, right now there is Motif, GTK, LessTif, Qt, Xt and some others. And no, that is not intuitive. On the other hand: does windows have the same toolkit for everything? Old applications written for Windows 3.x still have the same white background. Applications written for 95 don't have the same UI style as those written for XP. Many applications under Windows use their own 'personalised' toolkit (example: SoundBlaster software).

Then turn your face towards the Qt/KDE toolkit. Not only do these toolkits allow much better window design, it also is consistent, skinable, more userfriendly, easier to code, better integration etc. etc. (this list is endless).

About the piping ASCII text from one program to another, this idea is based on flexibility. Allowing experienced users to filter data between programs is still a much better way to handle data than to supply a userinterface for each thinkable relation between two or more data providers/processors.

Oh yes, there are without doubt options to handle these cases much better. IMHO, this is not on how Microsoft did things. There have been many developments in computer science in the past decades, overshadowing the design principles of UNIX. But don't forget that UNIX is a system which has been tested, used and developed by litterally millions of people. IMHO, Plan 9 is a very good new alternative to those who would like to work with a well designed system.

Your answer please?

Re:How to use some of that money

[DrXym]

So are you an expert or a mere mortal?

Fixing a UI so a novice can use it without screaming because the bloody thing is so obtuse doesn't mean removing any power. It just means arranging things so that stuff people do a lot is presented in a more obvious manner, that silly dialogs are removed, and that help is accurate and written in plain english.

The control panels are a perfect example of mess. 20-30 panels with more tabs inside. Frequently used options mixed in with never used at all options. Options that control similar functionality in different panels or not there at all. GNOME is worse than KDE but both are pretty bad.

Re:How to use some of that money

[DrXym]

Thanks for the link, it pretty much echoes the point I was trying to make. Too bad I didn't know about it beforehand :)

Re:How to use some of that money

[reflective recursion]

Please check out your sources better. The "Toolbar" in KDE has been around for a long while. Ideas of representing running applications with icons or buttons have been around long before Windows was even thought of.

I never said it was new. I said they are modeled after Windows. Most window managers for X have a toolbar of some sort. Not all have one running down the bottom of the screen and has a left-hand side button that is identical in functionality to Windows' "Start" button. Nor do other toolbars have application buttons in that toolbar.

On the other hand: does windows have the same toolkit for everything? Old applications written for Windows 3.x still have the same white background. Applications written for 95 don't have the same UI style as those written for XP. Many applications under Windows use their own 'personalised' toolkit (example: SoundBlaster software).

Of course. But the degree of difference between applications is greater on *ix than in Windows. The way applications function under Windows is for the most part consistent. There really is no competing widget sets on Windows, which helps coherency.

Then turn your face towards the Qt/KDE toolkit. Not only do these toolkits allow much better window design, it also is consistent, skinable, more userfriendly, easier to code, better integration etc. etc. (this list is endless).

And I could say that *ix is all those things and GTK+ and Motif. Windows is Windows. *ix is X, GGI, WindowMaker, fvwm, KDE, GNOME, etc. It really doesn't matter how good Qt's usability is, if the system itself is not up to Qt's standards of usability.

About the piping ASCII text from one program to another, this idea is based on flexibility. Allowing experienced users to filter data between programs is still a much better way to handle data than to supply a userinterface for each thinkable relation between two or more data providers/processors.

But it doesn't have to be this way. COM/OLE/ActiveX/etc. is not the last nail in software interaction's coffin. It's time to move into the 21st century.

Plan 9 is a very good new alternative to those who would like to work with a well designed system.

That's what I'm saying. The original poster's attitude against Windows users is absurd when his OS of choice, Unix, is by no means a superior OS in this day and age. It's as if hes poking fun at Windows users by claiming OS superiority, yet he is guilty of the same thing.

All that truely matters is what works. There is no reason to call Windows users "sheep." They are using what works for them--they don't care about stuff below the GUI level. I'm 100% certain that the poster is ignorant on some subject any Window's user is. While he is studying Unix learning all the archaic commands, a Windows user may be studying biology, or something.

Re:How to use some of that money

[brad3378]

&gt There is no distro or UI (KDE/GNOME) which comes even remotely close to being user friendly as OS X or XP define it.

I can't speak for OS X, but I don't know how you can say that Windows XP is windows friendly! I'm not a computer genius, but I've had so many problems That I've reformatted my hard drive and "downgraded" back to Win2k. I couldn't even ghost my XP partition because apparently XP fucked with the partition table!

other noteworthy things I hated about XP:

No fast way to find files Back in Windows 9x & 2K, with 3 keystrokes I could easily click the Start Button, (F)ind (F)iles, and the find dialog would pop up. Now I need to slow down and grab my mouse, click a few times, and then move back to the keyboard. Nitpicking? Probably, but I don't like it in XP.

Networking Yes, there are some cool pictures to help you figure out what kind of network stuff you need, but for Christ's Sake, QUIT MAKING decisions for me! NO, I DON'T want my network cards briged!

Quit asking me to sign up for the god-damned Microsoft network!!!

Yes, there are some new cool features in XP, but I should have listened to the old saying, If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Re:How to use some of that money

[Arandir]

The way applications function under Windows is for the most part consistent. There really is no competing widget sets on Windows, which helps coherency.

You're point might be valid except for one thing: the internet. All those millions of web pages out there with different looks and feels. Yet the general surfing public manages to handle it. The differences between the default GTK+ and Qt looks is far far less than the differences between any two random web pages. A common DND protocol is needed. A common set of keys is needed. But the differences between the way the look and feel is irrelevant.

The original poster's attitude against Windows users is absurd when his OS of choice, Unix, is by no means a superior OS in this day and age.

I was not saying that Unix is better than Windows. Rather my point was that since I am not familiar with Windows it is confusing to me. I was attacking the asurd notion that Windows is intuitive. It is not. But that doesn't mean that I think Unix is intuitive.

The first real computer system I ever used was 4BSD. I started on Unix. So Unix feels natural to me. For someone starting with Win9x, Unix will feel unnatural.

There is no reason to call Windows users "sheep."

I didn't call all Windows users sheep. I called *some* of them sheep. And I will be the first to admit that many Unix users are also sheep. But I will not retract my implication that Microsoft prefers its users to be sheep.

While he is studying Unix learning all the archaic commands, a Windows user may be studying biology, or something.

I don't expect automobile drivers to know how to tune an engine or change the oil. But I do expect them to know how to drive, have basic knowledge on traffic laws, the ability to read and understand their owner's manual, and that they need to change their oil every 3 months or 3000 miles.

No one expects the average computer user to know anything at all about their computer. This is stupid. I'm not talking about my Mother who is completely inept when it comes to technology. I'm talking about the people who work in IT.

Temporary

[kkirk007]

Mandrake pushed the User-Club as a short-term solution to being mismanaged last year. Currently they are under much better management, and now that they're no longer in the red I believe they're clear of immediate danger.

Great News for Freedom

[afferoman]

Mandrakes new business model is a very important step for Free Software. Every software company in this space has been struggling to find a model that will work to support the culture and ideology that underpins this movement.

Many companies have abandoned their roots based on certain philosophical principles only to say "well...we're grown up now so we have to be capitalists..." causing incredible divisions in their internal corporate culture. As soon as they "grow up" they forget what has driven their success - the human interest in sharing.

Mandrake has successfully found a model based upon the notion of sharing. They have extended the concept of giving to enable the users who have the financial resources to give with a way to do it. No longer are poeple restricted to only giving back code or free support. Those users who have a little money (or more) can share it freely with the great people in the Mandrake community who are sharing their code with the commons.

If anyone doesn't think this fits "capitalism"...well maybe capitalism in cyberspace needs an adjustment. Finally, an innovative business model which doesn't destroy the Free Software culture!

Re:Great News for Freedom

[electroniceric]

I agree with you that they really are trying a new business model, and in many ways, I think it's a very sane one for the software development community. The strength of a software platform depends on the community of its users and particularly developers, and Mandrake is clearly trying to combine some sort of revenues with a strong relationship with its user and developer base. Frankly, I think it's a great direction for business in general, and Mandrake didn't have to screw around with silly acronyms like CRM to figure out that good business is symbiotic.
In reading over the terms of the Club, I get the sense that their vision is somewhat vague. Not to throw rocks, but the combination of novel and vague methods makes it easy to make mistakes. Nonethless, they seem to have their heads on pretty straight. Perhaps Mandrake won't make it as Mandrake, but those folks will do good stuff, and I wish them the best.

Re:Great News for Freedom

[ahde]

Their "business model" is to expect $60/year in donations (roughly the cost of Windows @ $100/1.5 years).

Currently there are 5600 members at an average of $75 apiece. They hope to increase this by a factor of 10, giving an anual revenue of $4.2 M. At present (based on Q4 2001 from their own letter) they're leaking $6.72 M anually, after conventional sales, service and support.

By their projection, they'll still be losing money, but not as bad as before. The problem is, the "donations" come directly from their user base which cuts into conventional sales. Here's a much easier solution (co-opted from the RIAA's lack of understanding) -- if you overcharge for a plastic disk with a little bit of tinfoil on top, people won't pay for it. But if you charge a reasonable price, and they like your product, they will.

Alot of people use cheap bytes or some other burner because they don't have their own bandwidth. But a lot of people don't -- because they'd rather get the original thing. If you could get an OFFICIAL Mandrake CD for $10 (plus shipping -- geniune sticker included), would you? For $5?

Say Mandrake has a million users. 1 in 10 of them is a poor unfortunate soul without broadband or just wants to support the distribution (that's roughly the percentage they hope to get with subsriptions.

At $10 a pop that's $1 M. Much more likely. Much more sustainable. A quarter of their charity wet dream, but more than double their current offering. If they want to make it a club they could include geniune certificates and maybe a decoder ring. At the least an encrypted monthly newletter. For $60 a year you get a coaster in the mail every month with the lastest snapshot (and exclusive membership stickers of course-- you could even have a sticker design competition by the members) -- That's a club I'd join. And I don't even use mandrake.

Re:Great News for Freedom

[horza]

I agree it's a nice original business model worth giving a try. Free software written in spare time will only get to a limited level of polish and updates will be slow. A traditional software company will focus on one area can raise a lot of capital and write a feature rich application but then the pressure is on to expand, find new bloat to put in as an excuse to keep the staff working, agressive sales needed to keep figures looking good on paper. There may well be a sustainable nich between the two.

The notion of sharing does make sense. Both home users and SMEs want something that is easy to install and does well the 95% of the tasks most people do (WP, surfing, etc). Free is nice but most of us don't mind paying a little bit extra to make our lives easier, and if the cost is 'price of development'/'number of users' then you don't get any better value than that. If this works then there is room for mini-Mandrakes to appear and polish up that last 5% (eg a MusicMandrake for music users to have an easy-install pro music software).

The club is a powerful tool they can use. Acorn Computers set up a club called "The Clan". In return you got advance info on upcoming releases, first access to beta software, Clan sweatshirts and T-shirts, a card that let you into a special area at shows. From a business point of view there was no value for money, but they effort they put into the pretend conspiracy was a lot of fun for the fans who quite happily donated the cash giving Acorn a fair amount of money.

The point about learning from the mistakes of the RIAA is a very insightful one. Despite The Prisoner appearing on telly umpteen times I still bought the 'original' box set of videos for 50ukp and have the No.6 bottle-opener (that probably cost them a few pence to make) sitting on my monitor. I think the last paragraph of the parent post is an excellent idea.

It's an interesting blur between software and service, between being a capitalist in a free software world and being an innovator in a world where shareholder is god. Life is about trying new things. Sometimes they work and sometimes they don't, but the result will always stand up as a lesson to us all.

Phillip.

Re:Mandrake's love of betta

[swagr]

I, on the other hand, have had serious problems with 8.2.

I am a ex-Slackware Gentoo-convert, who has always felt that if I want something done right, I have to do it myself. I am aware of the passe quotability of that last comment, but I have found it to be true.

I have a new Compaq Evo N600C, and until 2.4.18, not all my hardware was kernel-supported. I had to tweak to get things to work. Relying on Mandrake's tools freezes X, or the network tool. Even the package manager has frozen on me. Everytime I boot, Mandrake thinks my mouse is new or has disappeared. Finally when I had things running, I was using KWord to do some work. It crashed twice in under an hour.

Installing and configuring Gentoo took WAY longer than Mandrake, and was much more demanding. But it works.

Now that I have spent many years tweaking and configuring Linux in a DIY fashion, I was REALLY hoping there would be a distro capable of working in such a way that I wouldn't have to bother.

Not yet.

Here's their response to me

[jacobb]

yeah, I wrote them a nice long email laying out my situation, and I told them that they'd most probably multiply significantly the number of subscriptions if they let you pay monthly.... they replied saying that they might work on it in the future :(. here's part of the email:

When we will be able to do it technically we will do it. For the moment
it need bit more time.
There is also the problem that we are going to offer more and more
attractive stuff and don't want someone to pay for one month, grab
everything and stop.

Re:Here's their response to me

[ahde]

when a company isn't able to take you're money when you offer it, you know they're doomed.

My opinion of Mandrake

[Karl Cocknozzle]

Is that it's the easiest to install of the lot. A little background: I just started futzing with Linux recently. I've done 3 linux installs. Two were nightmares that never actually technically ended, and one was flawless, simple, and took under 30 minutes.

The one that went off without a hitch on the first try? Mandrake. It detected all of my crappy second-hand non-standard Gateway hardware no sweat, suggested sizes for partitions and went off on its merry way. 27 minutes later it was rebooted and prompting me for my login and password...

Damn, if I had known Mandrake was so easy I would've used it the first time...

Doesn't anyone see what's wrong with this?

[IGnatius T Foobar]

Doesn't anyone see what's wrong with this?

The company is "cash flow positive" because people are making cash donations to it? This isn't sustainable. The "dot com" companies tried to live this way -- the only difference was that the money was coming from venture capitalists instead of consumers. Once the VC went away, they all went bankrupt very quickly.

Sorry folks, but the only way to stay in the black is to consistently keep your revenues higher than your expenses. A one-time cash infusion in tough times is nice, but you can't count on it to continue indefinitely.

Re:Doesn't anyone see what's wrong with this?

[afferoman]

It's quite early to declare that this isn't sustainable and the early indications are contrary to your declaration.

Maybe it will be. Instead of discounting Mandrake's efforts to stay true to a culture of giving...why not applaud them for innovating. They deserve credit for this.

commercial or non-profit?

[mmusn]

I like the Mandrake distribution But Mandrake's commercial nature doesn't give me much confidence in their future. As a commercial company, they are ultimately out to make a profit, but they don't seem to be able to do so without donations. It seems odd, though, for people to donate money to a supposedly profit-making enterprise. I don't see a good path to profitability, despite their article.

Wouldn't it make more sense for Mandrake to become a non-profit? Employees would still get paid, they would have tax benefits, and people who donate money would be guaranteed that their money goes into making a better distribution.

Re:commercial or non-profit?

[mmusn]

First, for profits are able to offer benefits to investors and employees as well as users.

Right now, they are offering losses and a very uncertain future.

This enables a for profit entity to compete more effectively against other for profits.

That's funny, because for-profit corporations always complain about the unfair advantages non-profits enjoy.

It is true that without the promise of huge IPOs, you might not be able to get people to work long hours for nearly nothing, but I wouldn't consider that a fair deal for employees anyway. Beyond that, however, a non-profit gets tax advantages and other advantages. Doesn't seem so uncompetitive to me.

For profit has received a bad name because of managements focus on the bottom line and disregard for other responsiblities. This type of approach is needed more in the for profit world.

There are certain things that just don't make sense for a for-profit company, or that are downright illegal. For example, if I donate money to Mandrake, what fraction is going to end up as profits with investors eventually? Why should I donate money to investors, who entered into the deal with the expectation of making a profit? Are these people needy? Or, if the donations are just going to tie them over until they make a profit, that seems dangerously close to an unfair means of driving out competitors through artificially low prices.

If you are going to run a for-profit, you have to do it for real: deliver value in the form of a product. If you can't make it work out without donations, it's just not a good business.

Uhhhh, hang on...

[Rogerborg]

I'm puzzled... Mandrake are saying that it's an innovative idea to offer more stuff in return for more money.

Before you get the troll stick out, go and read their statement. That's exactly what they say. That people were buying the box set (instead of downloading) just to give them funds, and this is a better method than that "charity purchase" because it gives more benefits to the purchaser.

You ever see that Dilbert strip where Dogbert is explaining the basics of economics to a .com startup?

• Startup Guy: Wait... you're saying we need revenue to make profit?
• Startup Gal: Ouch. I have a headache on one side.

Sounds to me like Mandrake has just discovered the basics. Sell stuff. Offer more stuff the more money you pay. Tell your customers that they're partners, because that way they're more inclined to pay (in this case, it's actually true, but the point it that it's still standard marketing spin, and business types are comforted by familiar mantras).

Hurrah for Mandrake. I've been thinking for a while now that we could do with fewer commercial Linux distros, and better concentration of funds. I'm a SuSE user (and purchaser), but really, I don't mind who gets the money, as long as we get a few sustainable businesses out of it that we can all donate to/buy from - and get our employers to buy from - with a degree of confidence that they'll still be there next year to offer support.

Re:Uhhhh, hang on...

[iabervon]

Actually, it seems to me that MandrakeSoft is saying that it is innovative to get money in return for doing what you'd do anyway.

If you give them money, they'll be grateful. In return, they'll go on doing what it was that made you want to pay them, and not make you go to the store.

It seems to me that this is just a matter of unbundling the things people want (inprovements in Mandrake) from the things people don't want (paper, cardboard, and plastic).

Of course, there's the fact that people will rarely pay any amount of money which doesn't appear on a price tag, so setting a range of prices for nothing in particular will make people who want to give you money much more likely to do so. Giving them more stuff in return is less important.

Re:Uhhhh, hang on...

[Afrosheen]

I guess you missed the previous posts or your is old. Someone posted a quote from Mandrake's site mentioning their cashflow peril. Basically what happened to them last year was a disaster due to bad management. They refer to them as 'the old management' which leads me to believe they already cut the cancer out. Now they can get on with what they do best, making a good distro and charging a reasonable amount of money for it while keeping it all free (as in speech).

Why I joined the club.

[MrEfficient]

I was very hesitant to "donate" money to a business. I was an economics major in college and giving money to a publicly traded company is against my religion. I finally justified it by telling myself that Mandrake wasn't a "normal" company and Linux isn't a "normal" product. It's something better, because it provides people with freedom instead of trying to tie them to some proprietary product.

One of the most amazing things behind Free Software and Open Source is that anyone who can program can potentially contribute to the project. Many programmers donate their time and expertise to producing Free Software. But there are many people like myself who aren't programmers, but who also want to contribute. Mandrake Club provides a method for me to contribute, and I give them some money much as I would give them my code if I were a programmer. I hope that my contribution will keep Mandrake alive so that not only I, but many others can benefit from their work.

As a final note, I just installed Mandrake 8.2 this weekend. It's by far the slickest Linux distro I've tried. It's not only a great desktop, but it has all the power of linux underneath and therefore makes a great server as well.

truly hope this works.

[RestiffBard]

not yet a member. I'm over my credit limit :) but soon I will be. Mandrake jsut seems to be what this whole thing is about. If you like something you support it. thats it. we've been complaining about getting music on a more reasonable system usch as the honor system. Yet when a software company that does good creates an honor sytem club type thing we crap on it. I hope it is a huge success. As far as I'm concerned if I join the Mandrake Club I'm not a member but more a patron of software. I can make suggestions to the developers and they implement them and I show my appreciation by paying a certain amount to continue that work.

Re:Never admit donations are no longer needed

[jd142]

Yeah, but I think they are trying to be a for profit company. For which the rule is the reverse, never say you are out of money, and if you do have to beg for donations, stop as soon as possible or people will tag you with the big 'ol capital L.

Re:long term solution?

[joestar]

Absolutely. But it's good news anyway! MandrakeSoft and SuSE have been losing money recurently for two years!

Re:Cash flow positive... - mandrake definition

[n9hmg]

There's also "American Mandrake", commonly called the mayapple.
I sometimes tried keeping a few of the roots, bruised, on a shelf in my closet, when i was having trouble sleeping. The fumes brought on deep, but often wierd, sleep.

An idea to generate revenue

[OpCode42]

How about an iso of the source downloadable for free, but a fee of a few dollars / pounds / whatever to download the compiled distro? I'd be happy to pay $5 to download the latest version.

Yes you must run a business

[HanzoSan]

But I dont, so why should i give my money to Suse? or Redhat?

Mandrake is for people who dont run a business, the working class OS.

AOL is a donation

[HanzoSan]

Which makes millions of dollars so you can use AOL 7.0

You see, a service which asks the common man to pay, is a donation

A service which asks big companies to pay is business

Redhat is a business, Mandrake is a donation

wheres the logic they both do the same thing!
Mandrake Club, Up2date

Re:My point of view on Mandrake

[tweek]

Let's see here:
1. I still can't play Shockwave files with Mandrake installed "out of the box"
- Nor can anyone else on any linux distribution. Get the crossover plugin and you might have luck. Flash is the only native plugin available to linux from Macromedia.

2. I still have to resort to the command line when installing apps like OpenOffice
- Since when is this Mandrake's problem? Talk to the openoffice people.

3. I still have to resort to using LinNeighbourhood as Mandrake won't see my user account exported from a Linux box via Samba
- Again this seems like a KDE problem and not Mandrake's

4. CTRL+C and CTRL+V still doesn't work flawlessly between applications from different Desktop Environments (i.e. KDE and Gnome)
- yet another "talk to the actual application developer

5. I still have to manually configure mime types in Evolution to make it use Galeon instead of Mozilla
- So you decided to use Galeon over Mozilla which Mandrake happily preconfigured as the handler for those file types? Sounds like a you problem. I personally don't WANT galeon to overwrite my mime settings. Isn't that one of the pains in the ass under windows is that every app under god's nutsack want's to be your default handler?

6. I still have to manually configure Mozilla setup a minimum font size so that I don't get those stupid fonts that are so small that they are unreadable
- I'll give you this one. Why can't distro providers preinstall mozilla-fonts and set those as the default. Then again, maybe you like your fonts bigger than most.

7. I still have to re-configure mime types so that when I click an m3u (MP3 playlist) in Galeon, it uses xmms
- Sounds like another case of you just wanting to be a little different. Not a problem mind you but Mandrake (and any other distro for that matter) have to make a stand somewhere. This is our default config. We can help you with some stuff but not others. Hence the support subscriptions.

8. And of course I still can't edit Microsoft Word documents with 100% accuracy, despite all the crowing that goes on about OpenOffice, StarOffice, KDE Office and the others
- So this isn't a mandrake problem either. It sounds like an OpenOffice,StarOffice,KDE Office and the others problem.

Having said all that, I still fail to see what your problem with mandrake is? I don't personally use it but everything you've listed is not related to mandrake by any stretch.

Re:Usage of 'Window$' in announcement.

[jeff13]

Considering Microsoft has refered to Linux in general as "communist" and "bad for business" I don't think ANY software company distributing Linux can afford to NOT answer Micro$oft's retarded accusations.

BTW, I've heard worse things from M$ about Linux, but the ones I mention above come from actual news copy.

Thats exactly what Microsoft said about linux

[HanzoSan]

"Bill:I dont see how Linux can ever be successful, its FREE!"

"Steve: Yes I know its free, they assume every programmer will contribute their time and code! Why would anyone contribute to something which cant make then any moneY?!"

"Bill: Lets not worry about linux, it has no chance, how about we focus on destroying apple."

Microsoft makes money off the browser

[HanzoSan]

When you buy the os, a DONATION is automatically given to IE.

When you join the microsoft clu er MSN, you also donate to IE!

Re:Unfortunately looks like Fry's does not have it

[felipeal]

why can't you purchase it online or have someone else w/broadband DL and burn it for you?

You ask that because you probably don't know Fry's. It's sort of a legend among the geeks/hackers (mainly in Northern California). You could even find the Agenda VR3 there a few months ago (not sure if they still have it though).

People used to joke that if you are a girl in the Silicon Valley, you should hang in a Fry's store if you are looking for a date.

Gael's Flower Shop

[Arandir]

Here at Gael's Boutique we sell the world's finest flowers. But the flower market has been a bit soft lately. So we held a bake sale. Dear customer, we want to thank you. Because you donated to our bake sale, we are proud to say that our flower shop has finally made a profit.

Dristros for everyone.

[josech]

Thats exactly the potential of the open-source movement, you can have distros for very specifical users. My favorite distro is Slackware, but I woludnt use it if I needed an out-of-the-box server; Id rather use Caldera. The freedom to choose is the big deal of the Linux distros.

Cringely LIES

[JM]

That is a pure lie. I handle all transactions on the Mandrakestore, and we answer *all* requests.

Before we take the credit card, we log the transaction into an SQL database. Then it's passed to the bank, where they enter their credit card number. The bank keeps the transaction into their database. Then, the bank returns the data to us (without the card number), we log it again, and we send an e-mail to the customer with their receipt number, and a copy to me, stored on an offline server.

We can't possibly lose the information, unless the customer entered a bunch of "asajkd" and "adasdkj" into the fields, didn't print his invoice, and his e-mail bounced, and even then, we can ask the bank to find the info if the customer used a valid credit card number.

I'm e-mailing the guy right now.

I've done this, and you obviously haven't used MDK

[aquarian]

I did just such a focus group, to find the best desktop package for a company overhauling their whole IT approach. We compared Mandrake and Redhat with Windows, Mac OS9, and OSX. As a long time Mandrake user, the results were no surprise to me- people familiar with Windows or Mac were initially more productive on those, but Mandrake was about as easy to use and adapt to as a Mac for Windows users, or Windows for Mac users. So really, they're all about the same. System administration tasks on Mandrake were actually easier than Windows, for Windows and Mac users!

Personally, I find Mandrake/KDE is a little bit ahead of Win2K, usability-wise, especially with moving files around, and in system administration. I use both regularly. I hear XP is a big improvement over 2K, but I haven't spent much time with it.

Cashflow indeed.. Want to donate?

[Ogerman]

Then donate to the Debian project through the non-profit organization Software in the Public Interest. Why the heck would you give your money to a corporation? If you donate to SPI, you'll get a tax receipt too. Can't say that about MDK User Club.

See this page: http://www.debian.org/donations

Why choose Debian over Mandrake?
- More packages than any other distribution.
- Latest software versions available faster (use Debian's 'unstable' tree.. which btw, is pretty darn stable! Nothing like the buggy mess that is MDK cooker.)
- Packages are exceedingly well built, highly integrated, and well optimized.
- It's cleaner / faster. Debian's default install isn't loaded down with lots of junk you probably won't need anyhow.
- Responsive support mailing lists: be polite and you'll get quick answers
- Incredibly easy to maintain / update due to superior dependancy handling
- All packages are available from a single location with many mirrors. No hunting.

Please note that you should be using Debian testing (Woody) to install as it's very mature and up to date.

And now come the whining newbie flames about how Debian is so impossible to install or other such entirely unfounded nonsense. RTFM and try before you cry folks. (-:

Re:yes I am a linux user

[Oliver Defacszio]

Then, sadly, you can't have it both ways. R&D costs money in developer time among numerous other ways. If you are a proud member of the "I Support Linux As Long As It Requires No Personal Sacrifice Of Any Kind" club, you instantly lose your rights to bitch when things don't go your way; in terms of slow development schedule, a lackluster installation procedure or the laughable package installation options currently available (no, I don't care how much any of you like apt... the average user doesn't).

Now, you're not being particularly smarmy about any of this, so I will likewise avoid being so. Perhaps you're not a part of the irritating bunch who pound fists and exclaim that Linux is as capable on the average desktop as Windows or MacOS when the overwhelming evidence shows otherwise, but if you are hopeful of it ever reaching that level, I advise with all sincerity that you should probably lose the attitude that you have described (assuming you were speaking in first person).

Linux users are quickly becoming known as impossibly selfish malcontents who are good for little more than lipservice and that is not a great basis for any "revolution".

Investment

[WillWare]

in my own cost/benefit analysis, the money I spend on their boxes is well worth it. I'm not making a 'donation', I'm consciously investing in my own future.

This is a very powerful idea, and really gets to the root of the gratis/libre distinction. People are often initially attracted to free software because they don't have to pay for it. But the real prize, the one your grandkids will thank you for, is the intellectual commons and the long-term effect it can have on the world.

It's easy to forget this stuff when everybody is out of work . When everybody got regular paychecks it was no big deal to drop some bucks on somebody doing something interesting. But the screwed-up economy is just a circumstance, and a transient one at that. It doesn't really deserve the deciding vote about which human activities are most worthwhile.

Re:The darker side of Mandrake and OSS principles

[ScrewTivo]

(see next post "I just joined..") I can't say anything about your posting(s) on Mandrake, but it sounds a bit extreme to boot you for what you said above (I would like to hear Mandrake's take on booting you). Actually I agree with you on this. But I still feel joining is worthwhile. Hopefully Mandrake will learn from this for the future.

Re:Mandrake's love of betta

[Afrosheen]

Anyone ever wrestle with a rackmount Compaq Proliant 5000? I recently got one with nt4 preinstalled (no known admin password) with 3 gb raid drives. I thought I'd give the newest Mandrake a shot.

It wouldn't boot from the cd, which didn't surprise me because it's so damn old. I did however make a cd install boot disk, which came up instantly and hit the cdrom. About the only thing that went wrong in the install was it not detecting the full amount of ram. Again, no shocker here due to the age and strangeness of the hardware.

Overall it was a flawless install. The compaq raid card was fully supported, along with every other device in the machine. The installer knew it was smp-capable so gave me the option to install the smp kernel even though there's only one cpu in it now.

I still can't believe that something so new installed on something so old. Url to it is http://openloop.by-a.com, nothing there but it's up.

Re:Always good news

[Afrosheen]

Give 8.2 a try. Bloat depends on YOU, not the distro. If you install in expert mode and pick every single package listed, yeah, it's gonna get bloated quick. OTOH if you select minimal install you can get a working system on as little as 85 megs.

Re:The installer matters

[Anonymous DWord]

If you actually read the instructions and help, the Debian install is quite simple, and insanely flexible.

Nobody wants to read instructions. They want to slap a disc in, come back in twenty minutes, and log in.

Perhaps the Debian developers need to work on a "I'm a newbie and I need help with this type approach".

Absolutely. Don't get me wrong - I think there's lots of room for a variety of distros providing different solutions, but they're dreaming if they think they're going to convert a new Linux user with a tough installation. People will just give up. That's the beauty of Mandrake - the first hit is free. When you get them hooked, then they can fool around with Debian, Slack, and LFS.

Re:You could get it to work??? WOW

[Afrosheen]

So true. If you start out with a crappy system you can expect lots of problems with kernels, hardware support, or anything else with ANY distro. My box has been upgraded 3 times since I started with Mandrake 6.5 and I've never had one problem with Mandrake or any other OS on this box.

Re:Mandrake is too Windowsish

[fireboy1919]

Actually, URPMI does stop working on its own. At least, that's exactly what it did. I checked all of the files in the dependancy list, and I have upgraded none of them, and changed none of them.
What happened? As far as I can tell, URPMI expects that the RPM sources are going to be at a particular location relative to the zipped file listing, and along the process of using it, all of the mirrors changed this location. I tried to upgrade, but I found that in order to do so, I would have to upgrade rpm and all its dependencies (which would be roughly equal to almost my entire operating system). Of course, I could force an upgrade, but that would result in the instability that I've been blamed for here on /. , and for which I'm blaming Mandrake.

And as far as my "it doesn't upgrade well" comment, while it may be your experience that upgrading was successful, this is not the norm - you are one of the lucky ones. Here on Slashdot is the first time I've heard anyone say that they've had a successful upgrade of Mandrake (and I've asked around).

As far as the last comment, that things are detected automatically unless they're very new, I guess the two most popular ethernet cards on the market - Netgear and DLink brand - are just too new (only being two years old and all), and so is Soundblaster AWE 64 Value (since its only 6 years old or so), and it doesn't work on a quirky system like a PIII-500 with one of the most standard motherboards ever used with it.

Does anyone else tire of moderators modding down posts that they don't agree with despite supported arguments?

Re:Mandrake's love of better

[leonbrooks]

Mandrake's 8.2 release seems to have cured this. The `bugs' they're fixing post-release are almost entirely trivial. They're also releasing update kits like the one for a stable KDE3 desktop. The problem with avoiding all beta-quality apps is a baby-and-bathwater issue with avoiding the most complete and flexible apps as well. Any choice will be a compromise, no matter who makes it. 8.2 seems to have found a sweet spot in that it's close to the bleeding edge but very little is broken. For example, I plugged a second video card into this box before upgrading it (from 8.1b3) and the 8.2 installer found and configured that automagically (I didn't try expert mode that time, although I usually do just to see what questions I get asked) so now I'm dual-heading. Automatically.

CygWin to the rescue

[HiThere]

The answer to your problems is CygWin. (Well, a better answer would be CrossWinds Connection ... [do I have that name wrong? probably. The big new Wine thing.]), but it you MUST have Windows installed as your OS, then CygWin is your rescue.

Another choice would be VMWare. It would be best with Linux as the base layer, but it will work with Windows at the base.

Win4Lin doesn't sound like it would do what you want, but you might give Lindows a look. It might be able to run Outlook. (And if it could, it could probably be used to close some of the worst security holes. Just log on as a particular user before using it. A user with almost no rights.)

Linux is no business failure

[Jeppe Salvesen]

I beg to differ. Briefly. I have to go back to coding a Linux-based app that we sell for a price with a quite a few digits.

Linux is actually a business success that is destined to advance. Amazon.com turned a loss into a profit by migrating to Linux, thus dodging license costs. Google runs on Linux. Various governments are looking into migrating onto Linux (their National Security advisors don't like to run software run by a company that got a settlement offer in such a weak case. Maybe there are paragraphs we don't know about?). IBM is embracing linux. Sun is recognizing Linux. Compaq & HP are dealing with Linux. Why? Because it is cost effective, and destined to become even more cost effective in the future.

A lot of really bright college graduates have used Linux extensively, and prefer working with Linux. Academia loves Linux, providing us with an ever expanding brainshare. This vastly increases Linux marketplace muscle. Would you like to develop your application on Linux, using free everything and readily available brainpower, or would you like to retrain your developers to use costly Microsoft solutions?

The hype was "pump and dump". However, some of those that followed the hype in trying out Linux got pleasantly surprised. It is a vibrant community, far outshining the dull, grey, business-oriented Microsoft-world. Microsoft once had that advantage over its competitors at the time (being developer-friendly), but it appears they have lost their shine.

On the long term, expect Microsoft to do several dramatic turns to re-attract the developer community - or die.