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Tattered Cover v. Thornton Reversed

TheMatt writes "In a victory for all those who like the First Amendment, the Colorado Supreme Court today reversed and remanded 'Tattered Cover v. Thornton'. The case concerned the Thornton police attempting to use a search warrant to gain access to the book-buying records of a suspected criminal. The Tattered Cover asserted First Amendment rights and refused to comply with the warrant. It is believed this will be heard by the US Supreme Court eventually." I can only imagine what the Tattered cover's legal bill must be like.

125 of 339 comments (clear)

  1. That sound you hear..... by s1r_m1xalot · · Score: 5, Funny

    is the death shriek of an innocent server running Apache on a PII 450 somewhere in central Colorado...
    May God have mercy on Tattered Cover's admin. ;)

    1. Re:That sound you hear..... by Tackhead · · Score: 3, Funny
      > is the death shriek of an innocent server running Apache on a PII 450 somewhere in central Colorado... May God have mercy on Tattered Cover's admin. ;)

      New .gov negotiating position: "Well, their legal bills didn't bankrupt 'em, but their bandwidth bills sure will!" ;-)

    2. Re:That sound you hear..... by Selanit · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually, the Tattered Cover is quite well-heeled. I live in Denver, and the place is a Mecca for book lovers. It's the largest bookstore for a thousand miles in any direction. They have a second branch in LoDo (Lower-Downtown) which is smaller but still of quite a respectable size.

      The main branch in downtown Denver has four stories of books (plus a basement). The fifth floor is a well-reviewd restaurant that serves fantastic garlic potatoes (among other things). Oh, and they have a coffee bar which serves the best cappucino in Denver.

      The decor is tasteful and friendly; a big selling point in the Tattered Cover is that they provide lots of big, over-stuffed chairs and let you sit down and read before you buy. In some ways, it feels more like a library than a book store. Their selection of books is phenomenal; There's only one book I've been unable to obtain from them, and that was "On the Erythraean Sea" by Agatharchides of Cnidus. (Contains the only contemporary account of gold-mining techniques in Ptolemaic Egypt; hardly New York Times Best Seller List material.)

      From what I've heard, they have a yearly revenue of a couple million. So, chances are that their web server is more likely to be a dual-cpu RAM-out-the-wazoo behemoth than a PII 450.

    3. Re:That sound you hear..... by stylewagon · · Score: 3, Informative

      Sorry to be a pain but they're actually running Netscape-Enterprise/3.6 SP3 on Solaris. Uptime looks good.

      --

      *** I am the real stylewagon

  2. Judgeorama? by RollingThunder · · Score: 5, Funny
    JUSTICE BENDER delivered the Opinion of the Court.


    "The prosecution can bite my shiny, metal ass. Case dismissed."
    1. Re:Judgeorama? by Puk · · Score: 2

      Futurama notwithstanding, I think this name would be really scary for a judge.

      "Move for a change of venue, since we cannot possibly trust anyone known as Justice Bender to uphold the law faithfully. I'm sure that this case would be better handled by Justice Forsale."

      -Puk

      p.s. That said, I think Justice Breaker would be a great name for a pro wrestler.

    2. Re:Judgeorama? by qslack · · Score: 2

      Wouldn't Judge Kaplan, the residing judge over the DeCSS case, be a JUSTICE BENDER too?

    3. Re:Judgeorama? by teslatug · · Score: 3, Funny

      Is the judge a woman? "Single female lawyer, fighting for her clients, wearing tiny mini-skirts, and being self-reliant"

    4. Re:Judgeorama? by CaptainStormfield · · Score: 3, Informative

      No. Justice bender is a he. here is his bio.

      --
      "The dinosaurs died because they didn't have a space program." - Niven
    5. Re:Judgeorama? by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 2

      I'd be a lot more scared if I was in front of Judge Fang.

      "Ok, he's guilty."
      "What! Wait, don't I get to defend myself?"
      "Don't be an asshole."

      --

      There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
    6. Re:Judgeorama? by pogopogo · · Score: 2, Funny

      And the Chief Justice' name is MULLARKEY. As in bull mullarkey I suppose. What the heck is going on in CO? Are the picking funny names out of the phone book and offering them spots on the state Supreme Court?

    7. Re:Judgeorama? by jafac · · Score: 3, Funny

      Justice Dredd?

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
  3. It's a shame that this sham has gone this far. by dave-fu · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's bad enough that the RIAA wants to watch who's listening to what and where and how. It's bad enough that the MPAA wants to make sure you don't watch DVDs in the wrong country on the wrong brand of TV. It's horrible that they've bought enough senators to have their way with us, but it's fucking untenable that what we read can be subpeoaned and used against us.
    Reading, music and movies are all unsafe at any speed. Let me know if you find a hobby I can enjoy without feeling someone's eyes on my back.

    --
    Easy does it!
    This comment has been submitted already, 276865 hours , 59 minutes ago. No need to try again.
    1. Re:It's a shame that this sham has gone this far. by swagr · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Think about how much time, money, and other resources the average person spends protecting their freedom: 2 minutes on Slashdot compaining. Now lets think about how much time, money and other resources these organizations spend trying to take away our freedon: 24/7/365, millions of dollars, any resource they can use (advertizing, lawyers, congress).

      Who do you think will win this fight?

      --

      -... --- .-. . -.. ..--..
    2. Re:It's a shame that this sham has gone this far. by Bishop · · Score: 2

      Our little blip on the histroric radar can't be used as a guide to say "individual freedom always wins." In fact it is probably easier to support the hypothosis that individual freedoms are usually surpressed. We are the anomoly not the norm.

    3. Re:It's a shame that this sham has gone this far. by maxpublic · · Score: 2

      History doesn't bear you out. There are many examples of 'free' societies (by the standards of the time) which eventually devolved into dictatorships, were conquered by foreigners, or simply collapsed altogether. This has happened time and again over recorded history.

      The last few hundred years are a very small sample, and we must remember that the vast majority of the worlds population labors under brutal, dictatorial regimes. If anything, the First World is an anomaly which seems to be moving away from freedom much as other societies have done in the past. And with the support of the majority of its citizens, who no longer believe in rights which directly contribute to freedom (e.g., privacy).

      Max

      --
      My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
    4. Re:It's a shame that this sham has gone this far. by Bishop · · Score: 2

      One example that easily comes to mind is the huge number of police cameras in England. Closer to home look at drug use and the war on drugs. You can be locked away for life for simple possesion.

      If the majority of society supports a removal of freedom, that freedom will be lost. Society, at least publically, supports harsh sentences for minor drug offences. The freedom to smoke up has been sucessfully eradicated.

    5. Re:It's a shame that this sham has gone this far. by maxpublic · · Score: 2

      Again, I'll ask: please provide a specific example of an individual freedom that has evolved that has been done away with. You cannot, because it has not happened.

      Democracy, in Athens. Or have you forgotten that Athens devolved into a monarchy and was eventually conquered?

      Rome: went from a republic to one of the worst dictatorships in recorded history, eventually conquered by barabarians.

      These are just two examples, both which gave people the right to elect their representatives and subsequently lost this right. In fact, in the western world there's no real example of democracy from the fall of Athens right up to the establishment of the Iceland colony by the Norse.

      Rights are won - and lost - all the time. It matters for dick if the *idea* survives if that idea isn't implemented. This appears to be a cycle, not a progression, and nothing in history demands that freedom become more pervasive over time. There is no historical example of this happening any time during the last 6,000 years, with the possible exception - in the First World alone - of the last 200.

      Max

      --
      My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
  4. Tattered cover... by doooras · · Score: 3, Funny

    i like that name.

    makes me want to start a computer company called Dented Boxen

    1. Re:Tattered cover... by jheinen · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's actually a really cool bookstore. It's positively huge - four floors, with comfy chairs and couches all over the place. They have successfully perservered as an independent bookstore in the face of competition from the big chains.

      --
      -Vercingetorix
      "Necessitas non habet legem." -St. Augustine
  5. It is most likely pro bono work by try2break · · Score: 2, Informative

    In high profile cases that challenge the courts' previous decisions the work is usually done pro bono(free).

    1. Re:It is most likely pro bono work by Mr.Intel · · Score: 2

      Listed as one of the defendants attorney's:

      "ACLU Foundation of Colorado"

      My guess is that the Tattered Cover didn't pay a dime.

      --
      ASCII tastes bad dude.
      Binary it is then.
    2. Re:It is most likely pro bono work by Random+Man · · Score: 2

      Yes, and it points out again how important the ACLU is in these times of governmental crackdown. Isn't there a great line in the American President? "Yes, Bob, I am a card-carrying member of the ACLU. The question is, why aren't you?"

      Here's the /. article that pushed me over the edge.

    3. Re:It is most likely pro bono work by jcr · · Score: 2

      "Yes, Bob, I am a card-carrying member of the ACLU. The question is, why aren't you?"

      I'm not, because of a case several years ago in which they tried to ship a kid back to the Soviet Union when he didn't want to go.

      Now, if they were willing to tangle with the Scientologists in the Henson case, I might reconsider.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
  6. Whoohoo! by sparrow_hawk · · Score: 2

    The little guy has to win some of the time! Anybody know if there's a fund set up for folks to donate money towards legal expenses?

    I mean, used bookstores are just *rolling* in dough. ;-)

    1. Re:Whoohoo! by xueexueg · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, you can order online. Thus simultaneously supporting the Amazon boycott.

  7. In this case by guamman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The Tattered Cover may not be in the right. The first amendment protects speech, religion, and the right to openly demonstrate those. It does not protect the right to privacy. I can certainly understand the bookstores reluctance to give out its customer's purchasing records, but if the government has a warrant there might not be much that can be done. I would assume this falls under the fourth amendment about search and seizure.

    1. Re:In this case by FreeUser · · Score: 2

      The first amendment protects speech, religion, and the right to openly demonstrate those.

      It protects the right of association, and by implication the right not to be found guilty by association.

      What is more, the constitution as a whole protects the right to privacy, as violating our privacy is a power not expressly granted the government except in very narrow cases (and therefor, according to the 10th amendment, explicitly denied the government).

      It is a refreshing surprise that at least one court is attempting to hold the government to the constitution, something the government really hasn't done since prohibition and the creation of the FBI. How long this will last is anyone's guess, but I for one am glad Tattered Cover has the courage to at least fight the good fight, for all our sakes.

      --
      The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
    2. Re:In this case by Zoop · · Score: 5, Interesting

      if the government has a warrant there might not be much that can be done

      Read the actual decision in the word document. It's pretty plain there that the expression of speech includes consuming speech without harassment, which implies a right to privacy. While it would be better explicit, this is what a woman's right to choose is (mistakenly, IMO) based on. (I'd prefer it be based on property rights, but that's a whole 'nuther argument).

      There's a lot of constitutional scholarship that has found a right to privacy implicit in the other rights, including those expressed in the First Amendment. This decision attempts to set up a test, essentially that the hated "compelling state interest," must be determined in an adversarial proceeding before seizure occurs--that means not just the DA and a judge in a darkened room, but a hearing giving the affected party a chance to object. And on the basis of the facts of the case, the Court did not find compelling state interest sufficient to outweigh the constitutional harm.

      The Supreme Court may yet overturn it, but it would be an interesting precedent if upheld. That would significantly curtail the ability of police to do various seizures without a suspect's knowledge. Since several of those things (e.g. wiretaps) have passed constitutional muster before, that's where I see this to be in danger of being overturned, rather than a lack of a right to privacy.

    3. Re:In this case by Anonymous+DWord · · Score: 2

      Except buying books is legal (for now); copyright infringement ain't (yet). ;-)

      --
      "If he thinks he can hide and run from the United States and our allies, he's sorely mistaken." Bush on bin Laden
    4. Re:In this case by sconeu · · Score: 2

      What is more, the constitution as a whole protects the right to privacy, as violating our privacy is a power not expressly granted the government except in very narrow cases (and therefor, according to the 10th amendment, explicitly denied the government).

      And implicitly recognized (not granted) as a right of the people by the Ninth Amendment.

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    5. Re:In this case by cduffy · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually, if you read the entire opinion, the judge talks quite a bit about why the 1st amendment *should* apply. To put it briefly, freedom of expression implies freedom to recieve that expression, ie. by purchasing and reading books; making it easy for law enforcement to find out who's reading what would have a substancial chilling effect on the first amendment rights of both book buyers and publishers as a whole.

    6. Re:In this case by ahde · · Score: 2

      Following that reasoning, the constitution also protects our right to free brie on Wednesdays. So if they try to pass some law that says I can't go to Safeway, put some soft cheese in my pocket, and walk right out through the door, they're violating the constitution.

      Just because something is not explicitly denied does not make it implicitly granted.

    7. Re:In this case by ahde · · Score: 2

      No, supressing publications they don't like would violate the first amendment. Looking for evidence from a criminal's purchases is not.

      Say I stole your credit card and went on a killing spree across the country. They think I'm headed for Mexico, so they get a warrant to see your credit card purchases to see if I'm buying gas and big gulps in a trail headed south, or north.

      Of course, this should be banned because of two reasons. 1) They could discriminate against me for drinking big gulps (a member of the jury is an evian drinker) and 2) You don't want them to know you subscribed to internet porn.

      Now, if the government abuses these privileges, then its time for a revolution (or election, heh). You can't have a government that's not allowed to govern.

    8. Re:In this case by ahde · · Score: 2

      The warrant does not allow the government to see your purchases whenever it wants. Only those of 1 criminal in 1 instance.

    9. Re:In this case by ahde · · Score: 2

      "compelling" and "interest" are not legal terms by any means, no matter how ofter lawyers use them. And remember, usually when they do, they are trying to deceive.

      Not that I don't believe in a right to privacy -- explicitly (at least partially) defined in the 3rh and 4th amendments.

    10. Re:In this case by Megs · · Score: 2
      Just because something is not explicitly denied does not make it implicitly granted.

      It does, or can, at least theoretically, when it comes to construing the Constitution, because of the wording of the 10th amendment. The federal government has no business making laws about shoplifting cheeses; that is taken care of just fine on the local level anyway.

      An argument can certainly be made that the federal government is overstepping its bounds here in one way or another without resorting to utter anarchy and cheese thievery.

      Meghan

      --
      Ask me about LOOM(TM).
    11. Re:In this case by sdowney · · Score: 2, Informative

      Since the decision is EXPLICITLY grounded in the Colorado constitution's Article 2, rather than in the First Amendment, the US Supreme Court has no reason to review the case.
      Judge Bender held that the Colorado Constitution granted wider free speach protections than the First Amendment.

    12. Re:In this case by Suppafly · · Score: 2

      actually the whole "right to privacy" was invented during the Roe v Wade trials.. before then there was no perceived constitutional right to privacy..just life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness(property) and if I recall correctly, both sides of the case argued their case using both the 1st and the 4th amendments.

    13. Re:In this case by Stonehand · · Score: 2

      And how do you know that somebody is a criminal until he is convicted? Or, perhaps, we should just assume that if he's accused, he's guilty, and therefore forfeits those rights?

      Unless the purchase of a specific book leads to clear, logical (and not just "well, that's the sort of nasty book you'd EXPECT a drug maker to buy" circumstantial arguments) evidence-based arguments... it really shouldn't be relevant.

      Now, if the book were FOUND, and it had meth all over it, and the prosecution wanted to show that THAT specific book was purchased by a defendant, then that might be material. But unless they can show that it's not just circumstantial, then it's fishing...

      --
      Only the dead have seen the end of war.
    14. Re:In this case by Stonehand · · Score: 2

      If it's a clearly bogus ruling -- from a legal perspective -- and would deny either side equal protection under the law (read: fairly and correctly applied), then it would be a Federal issue and yes, SCOTUS could overturn it.

      --
      Only the dead have seen the end of war.
    15. Re:In this case by cduffy · · Score: 2

      "1 criminal"? I find your presumption that warrants are only executed against the guilty somewhere between naiive and vaguely offensive.

      There's nothing about the usage of a warrant that implicitly provides a high standard of protection -- it simply means that a judge signed off that the existing standard has been met. What happened in this case is that the court decided that the standard used in awarding the warrant was unacceptably low, and created a new, higher one. That standard (the fulfilment of which the warrant represents) is the important thing, not the piece of paper that means it's been met.

    16. Re:In this case by Zoop · · Score: 2

      misogynists. opinionated, and never humble.

      Why is wishing for a stronger foundation for a woman's right to choose mysogynist? That would be like saying hoping that someone has a better reason for not killing a man than because they don't feel like it today is misandry.

    17. Re:In this case by maxpublic · · Score: 2

      "The powers not delegated to the United States by the
      Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

      The Tenth Amendment, in its entirety. Yes, this does mean that unless specifically granted the power *by the Constitution*, the Federal government simply cannot assume it by default. And that includes powers which violate privacy, as defined through the First and Fourth amendments.

      Max

      --
      My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
    18. Re:In this case by afniv · · Score: 2

      I read that the CO Consitution provisions for free speech is more broad than the U.S. Constitution.

      Read more at the local papers:
      The Denver Post
      Rocky Mountain News

      I think you can read more from their front pages.

      Personally, I'm confused about this whole issue (I'm local). On one hand, I don't think the police can find out what you read and prosecute you on your beliefs. But the press has been reporting that the City of Thornton wants to place a suspect at the lab by proving the receipt belongs to the suspect. But some of the quotes here from the decision makes it look like Thornton went about it the wrong way.

      --
      ~afniv
      "Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
      Richard von Weizs
  8. An uninformed opinion by Control+Group · · Score: 2

    I don't know the details of this case; can anyone point me to a link that gives some background? Because I have to admit, given what I've seen on their site, the First Amendment argument seems pretty weak...just like (almost) everyone else here, IANAL, but saying that anonymity is required for true freedom of speech seems a tenuous link at best. As long as you're protected from being censored or censured for your opinions, I fail to see how anonymity is a legitimate requirement for free speech. But, again, IANAL, and there could be loads of legal precedent for this of which I am unaware. Still, I would have thought this sort of thing would fall more under the Fourth Amendment...

    Anyhow, the upshot is, I'd appreciate someone pointing me to the background for this story so I can remove the "un"...

    --

    Reality has a conservative bias: it conserves mass, energy, momentum...
    1. Re:An uninformed opinion by Seth+Finkelstein · · Score: 2
      For an explanation you may find helpful, take a look at:
      http://w3.trib.com/FACT/1st.lev.tatteredcoverrec.h tml
      When you buy a book, you don't expect to have a law enforcement agent searching through the store's records at some later date to see what books you have purchased. Such an action offends America's sense of privacy. It smacks of a police state.

      Sig: What Happened To The Censorware Project (censorware.org)

    2. Re:An uninformed opinion by s390 · · Score: 5, Informative

      ...I'd appreciate someone pointing me to the background for this story...

      OK, here's the story. The local police busted a meth lab and found how-to drug manuals in a trailer, along with receipts from the bookstore. But the receipts didn't name the purchaser of the books, so the local DA subpoenaed the bookstore's customer records. The bookstore fought the subpoena and won.

    3. Re:An uninformed opinion by Greyfox · · Score: 2

      The link provided at the top of the page gives you a list of court cases. Find the Tattered Cover one and click on the case number. You get a Word Doc (Abiword handles it fine) that gives you all the details of the case.

      --

      I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

    4. Re:An uninformed opinion by Suppafly · · Score: 2

      You should read the court's opinion it gives a decent background and also explains why the first admendment argument is anything but weak.

      The upside of doing your homework is that you don't make embarassing statements like but saying that anonymity is required for true freedom of speech seems a tenuous link at best. As long as you're protected from being censored or censured for your opinions, I fail to see how anonymity is a legitimate requirement for free speech.

    5. Re:An uninformed opinion by sh00z · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, the receipt *did* name the purchaser ("Suspect A"), but not the titles of the books s/he bought. The police, who apparently did a pretty shoddy job of questioning the suspects they found at the scene, had no other means of linking Suspect A to the bedroom in which the books (available from Tattered Cover's catalogue) were found.

  9. Go Tattered Cover! by rgraham · · Score: 2

    As anyone in Denver and it's surrounding area's can tell you Tattered Cover is *the* place to go for great books and wonderful service so it's nice to see them not only survive the onslaught of cookie-cutter book "warehouses" but also unfounded legal assaults.

  10. My god...someone give this man a medal! by Cutriss · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "Anonymity is a shield from the tyranny of the majority. It thus exemplifies the purpose behind the Bill of Rights, and of the First Amendment in particular: to protect unpopular individuals from retaliation--and their ideas from suppression--at the hand of an intolerant society," wrote Justice Bender.

    Mr. Bender, would you please run for Congress?

    --
    "Mod, mod, mod...and another troll bites the dust."
    1. Re:My god...someone give this man a medal! by realgone · · Score: 2

      Actually, that wasn't a quote from Justice Bender. He was exerpting from the Supreme Court opinion in the case of McIntyre v. Ohio Elections Commission. Still, it's a pretty encouraging sign that the quote made even a guest cameo in his decision.

    2. Re:My god...someone give this man a medal! by blair1q · · Score: 2

      This goes both ways.

      Anonymity also protects criminals from prosecution for their crimes.

      The system has to decide who's merely unpopular and who's a criminal (spammer, harrasser, etc.) on a case-by-case basis.

      Which is what they just did. So who's surprised?

      --Blair

  11. Tattered Cover by daviskw · · Score: 5, Informative

    For those of you not from Colorado. The Tattered Cover is a bookstore chain out here in Colorado that specializes in all sorts of books over all sorts of subjects. The two stores that I am aware of (there may be more) are at least three, maybe for fours. There are not a used book store and the can be said to be larger than any Barnes and Nobles that I know of.

    From a computer books perspective they are neither the best nor the worst but certainly they do carry them.

    --
    Beware the wood elf!!!
    1. Re:Tattered Cover by Erbo · · Score: 2
      The TC's computer book selection is actually fairly good. Of course, if there's a computer book I need that I can't find there, I can always go to Softpro Books, which sells nothing but computer books (and Linux distros, and the like). They also have 2 stores in the Denver metro area, in Englewood and Boulder.

      But for overall selection, no bookstore beats TC, in my experience. (I'm still boycotting Amazon.com.) Plus I get the warm fuzzies of supporting an independent bookseller, and one which isn't afraid to stand up for its rights or the rights of its customers.

      Eric

      --
      Be who you are...and be it in style!
    2. Re:Tattered Cover by bughunter · · Score: 2
      I went to High School in Denver betewen 81 and 83, and lived within walking distance of the original Tattered Cover in the Cherry Creek shopping district. I chatted with the owner a lot, and she has a genuine love for books, the press, and freedom of expression. I was not suprised to find that she holds such similar regard for privacy rights to fight this search warrant with all her resources.

      I've lived in a lot of cities and never come across another general interest bookstore as complete as the Tattered Cover. Cheers and congratulations are due all around.

      --
      I can see the fnords!
  12. Screw the Tattered Cover by Mad+Man · · Score: 3, Funny

    It's time to close the "book store loophole," where criminals can purchase "how to" books that contain instructional information on committing illegal acts without any type of background check.

    Do it for the children.

    Every time I excercise my second amendment rights by purchasing a firearm, I am required to fill out a government form with all sorts of personal information. The seller is then required to get permission from the FBI and Colorado Bureau of Investigation to complete the transaction.

    The government has illegally been keeping these records. After being conditioned that this is "reasonable," -- often by first amendment extremists -- why should I give a flying rat's ass if it happens to other people?

    1. Re:Screw the Tattered Cover by swillden · · Score: 2

      The Second Amendment is a bit different - it does contain that 'well-regulated militia' clause. Figuring out what the heck that clause means is left as an exercise for the reader.

      The original, intended meaning of the phrase is actually quite clear. The only real confusion comes from the term "regulated" which, when applied to a military force of that era, essentially meant "properly equipped" (there's quite a bit of history behind that, but it ultimately boils down to the fact that commanders of armies got paid by the number of men equipped as per regulations that they could muster [the phrase 'to pass muster' comes from the same bit of history, incidentally]). So, if we update that single word, the phrase reads:

      A well-equipped militia being necessary...

      Add to that a bit of understanding of the nature of the Revolutionary War, the amount of the fighting that was done by semi-organized groups of citizens known as militias, the fact that the American regulars were drawn largely from militias and brought their own weapons, and mix in an understanding of the skepticism of government held by many of the founders and the phrase is clear as can be:

      The citizens should have arms so that they can defend their free State, whether from external attack or from internal tyranny. It's the combination of the notion of the "power of the people" and another notion which Mao Tse-tung stated succinctly as "power comes from the barrel of a gun". Power comes from a gun and they wanted the people to have the power, ergo the people should have the guns.

      Deciding whether or not this interpretation has any relevance to today, when we have the most powerful military in the world to handle external threats and when armed insurrection would pit deer rifles against tanks, attack helicopters, supersonic fighter-bombers and infantry armed with automatic weapons, night vision and encrypted spread spectrum tactical radios is left as an exercise for the reader. Hint 1: Red Dawn is a movie, and a rather fanciful one. Hint 2: consider 10 million deer rifles against 1,000 tanks. Knuth might label this problem as [HM50] (maybe without the 'HM'? Dunno).

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  13. En Banc by Davak · · Score: 2, Informative

    To save a little time... Quote below...

    Plaintiff-Appellant:

    TATTERED COVER, INC., d/b/a THE TATTERED COVER BOOKSTORE,
    v.
    Defendants-Appellees:

    THE CITY OF THORNTON; and THORNTON POLICE OFFICER RANDY GOIN, in his official capacity.


    JUDGMENT REVERSED AND CASE REMANDED
    EN BANC

    JUSTICE BENDER delivered the Opinion of the Court.
    JUSTICE COATS does not participate

  14. Even that doesn't work... by Big+Sean+O · · Score: 5, Interesting

    My computer store always asks for my name and address, even when I buy with cash. I usually tell them "No thanks" but one woman kept at it, so I gave her the address for Wrigley Field, heh heh.

    Radio Shack was the original offender in this 'collecting your address to serve you better' BS, but it seems to be picking up steam as 'the thing to do'.

    So, pay cash, and remember "3600 N. Clark Street, Chicago Illinois, 60657".
    -----

    --
    My father is a blogger.
    1. Re:Even that doesn't work... by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 2

      I really want to know how much bogus mail gets delivered to 22B Baker Street, in every major metropolitan area. All of my friends use it, and I'm sure web spiders find it too.

      --

      There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
    2. Re:Even that doesn't work... by coyote-san · · Score: 2

      I've gotten much less flexible in my advancing age. If they insist on that information, I tell them to forget it and walk away. Let them put the stuff back on the shelves, while the people behind me in line get a lesson that it is possible to say "no."

      This is a modest hassle, but far less than you would think.

      --
      For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
    3. Re:Even that doesn't work... by rlp · · Score: 2

      I really want to know how much bogus mail gets delivered to 22B Baker Street, in every major metropolitan area. All of my friends use it, and I'm sure web spiders find it too.

      In London, that would be the address of a branch of Abbey National Bank (though there is a brass plaque on the outside wall with an engraving depicting a fictional detective).

      --
      [Insert pithy quote here]
  15. Re:Tattered cover is a GREAT bookstore! by Philbert+Desenex · · Score: 2

    3 floors and basement in the Cherry Creek location. 3 floors in downtown ("Lo Do") location.

    Parenthetically - the Tattered Cover used to use a QNX-based system to do all their inventory and point-of-sale stuff. I was in the Tattered Cover last week but I can't recall what they used.

  16. Tattered Cover by HunterD · · Score: 2

    This is wonderful to see. Tattered Cover is easily the coolest bookstore I have ever had the pleasure to buy books at. The main store (Cherry Creek) is giagantic, sporting (among other things) very extinsive abounts of Sci-Fi, History, Maps (some historical), and computer books. At 4 stories, I don't know of another anywhere near it's size. The Downtown one is also very cool, right in one of the hottest parts of Denver (LoDo). Regularly, they have really high profile authors in, talking about their books or doing readings.

    All this from what was a tiny corner bookstore maybe 15 years ago.

    Between their just utter badassness, and this - I don't see myself buying books anywhere else for a long long time. oh, and note: they have an affiliate program - so if you value companie slike this, dump amazon, and add them.

    --
    - The unexamined life is not worth leading -
  17. Where to send them money by allism · · Score: 2, Informative

    First off, it's not a used bookstore...at least not the merchandise I have seen there (I have been to the LoDo store, but not Cherry Creek).

    Their legal fund (according to one of their clerks, anyway) is with:

    American Booksellers Foundation for Free Expression
    139 Fulton St #302
    NY, NY 10038

    Or you can call them at 303-322-7727 or 303-436-1070. I'm not listing their toll-free number here cause it costs them money for people to call them on it :)

    You CAN order books directly from them online at www.tatteredcover.com. They have been very helpful in finding books for me that B&N, Boreders, and Amazon have said were out of print.

  18. Supreme Court by Artagel · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I doubt the U.S. Supreme Court will take it.

    The Colorado Supreme Court restricted the ability of Colorado police to execute a search warrant.

    First, there is a doctrine that says if there is an independent state ground for the ruling, then there is not a basis for Supreme Court review. This doctrine has less applicability when a Constitutional right is being allegedly violated. However, nobody says that the Colorado police have a Constitutional right to the search -- if anything the ruling tends to support Constitutional rights.

    Second, Federalism doctrine, which the current U.S. Supreme Court favors, would tend to lead to the conclusion that the U.S. Supreme Court should let the Colorado Supreme Court rein in the Colorado police if it wants to.

    There will be other cases in the future, and the Supreme Court may well hear one. Just not this one.

    1. Re:Supreme Court by d5w · · Score: 3, Insightful
      I doubt the U.S. Supreme Court will take it.
      With all the usual IANAL qualifications, I'll give another reason in support of this statement: not only did the Colorado court rule on actions in Colorado, as the above comment says, but the court based its decision on the Colorado constitution. My understanding is that, while the Supreme Court sometimes corrects state courts on interpretations of the US constitution, it stays away from telling them what their own state constitutions mean.
    2. Re:Supreme Court by jjo · · Score: 2

      Yes it is. However, the US Presidential election is governed by the US Constitution. The Florida Supreme Court is the final arbiter as to the Florida constitution, but not the federal one.

  19. From an article at the denver post by Laplace · · Score: 2

    The Colorado constitution "protect an individual's fundamental right to purchase books anonymously, free from governmental interference."

    So it isn't just a first amendment issue.

    --
    The middle mind speaks!
  20. Re:1st Amendment? Not 4th? by realgone · · Score: 3, Interesting
    So I'm confused, how exactly does this relate to the 1st? Freedom of the press?

    (IANAL but...) freedom of speech has traditionally been interpreted as protecting a dialog of ideas (as opposed to a monologue). In other words, not only are your rights to express an idea protected, but also your right to receive ideas lawfully expressed by others. (Otherwise, the government could simply say: "Freedom of speech? Sure, talk all you want. Just step into this soundproofed room first.") Freedom of expression without reasonable freedom of channels of expression is more or less useless.

    In this case, it seems the court found that, among other things, the warrant placed an undue burden on the bookstore in its role as a channel of constitutionally protected speech.
  21. HTML version of court opinion (above is MSWord) by Seth+Finkelstein · · Score: 3, Informative
    HTML version of the opinion (the link given in the posting leads to an MS Word)

    http://www.cobar.org/CFwebFiles/Content/dspOpinion . fm?OpinionID=560

    With this case, we recognize that both the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and Article II, Section 10 of the Colorado Constitution protect an individual's fundamental right to purchase books anonymously, free from governmental interference. Law enforcement officials implicate this right when they seek judicial approval of a search warrant authorizing seizure of customer purchase records from an innocent, third-party bookseller. This case requires us to decide what test should be applied to balance the constitutional rights of individuals and bookstores against the duty of law enforcement officials to investigate crime.

    Sig: What Happened To The Censorware Project (censorware.org)

  22. A great decision by brickbat · · Score: 2, Insightful

    An excerpt from the opinion summary:

    . . . the law enforcement need for the book purchase record in this case was not sufficiently compelling to outweigh the harm that would likely follow from execution of the search warrant, in part because law enforcement officials sought the purchase record for reasons related to the contents of the books that the suspect may have purchased. (emphasis added)

    In other words, the police weren't interested in any criminal acts related to the purchase of these books, but rather if there was any content in the books which the prosecution could use to strengthen their case against the defendant.

    To draw an Internet analogy, this would be akin to the cops forcing an ISP to turn over their Web proxy logs, in order to determine if a suspected terrorist visited a site on bomb-making, instead of finding hard-copy instructions in the terrorist's apartment (which certainly could be used as circumstantial evidence).

    This decision makes a lot of sense. It would be one thing if the suspect had bought a dictionary, then used it to brain a little old lady during a mugging--then the police would have the right to obtain purchase records in order to prove the perp bought the murder weapon. But simply to say that "he bought The Anarchist's Cookbook, therefore he must be guilty"--that is a dangerous assumption, and clearly represents an attack on our rights to free expression.

    1. Re:A great decision by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 2

      But buying a book, let alone reading a book, about running a drug lab is not a criminal act, and should have no bearing. Unless, possibly, said books were found open, and highlighted, on the table of said drug lab, surrounded with the equipment and chemicals required to make drugs.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
    2. Re:A great decision by fishbowl · · Score: 2

      >Unless, possibly, said books were found open,
      >and highlighted, on the table of said drug lab,
      >surrounded with the equipment and chemicals
      >required to make drugs.

      Even then, it's hardly relevant!

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    3. Re:A great decision by markmoss · · Score: 2

      Unless, possibly, said books were found open, and highlighted, on the table of said drug lab... One book was still in it's wrapper and the police lab determined that neither had been read.

      OTOH, the books were found in the bedroom where methamphetamine had been manufactured. One reason the police wanted the records was to get additional evidence as to which of the four people living in the trailer house were sleeping in that bed.

      And on the gripping hand, the appellate court noted a number of curious gaps in the evidence, according to the records. There may have been more books in that room, but only two were seized -- and that choice was obviously content based. (The books were about synthesizing drugs.) The books and the laboratory glassware had been dusted for prints, but the court record did not show the results. The justices seem inclined to assume that the police hadn't put the results in the record for the subpoena case because they would have shown who was running the lab clearly enough to make the book purchase records unnecessary...

    4. Re:A great decision by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 2
      One reason the police wanted the records was to get additional evidence as to which of the four people living in the trailer house were sleeping in that bed.
      Why would the police expect the person who bought the book to automagically be the person reading the book? Given what you're saying, it looks like the police were trying to set a precident, stacking everything in their favour.
      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
  23. Ambiance, baby, ambiance. by PhilMills · · Score: 2, Interesting

    That's Tattered Cover's big selling point with me (besides 4 floors of selection and a coffee bar). Big leather chairs everywhere to test-read your selections, floor-to ceiling wooden bookcases w/ step ladders all over, bookcases all the way up the stairwell... and a distinct shortage of clerks wandering the store asking you if they can help you every five minutes. Peace and quiet while shopping is a rare thing these days. If I can't find something, there's help desks readily available for me to ask.

    Man, I can lose hours in there.

    --
    Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, will be quoted out of context on
    1. Re:Ambiance, baby, ambiance. by Anonymous+DWord · · Score: 2

      I can't remember the last time I went into a major bookstore that wasn't playing crappy music over the P.A. I don't know about you, but listening to Britney wail about her love life doesn't exactly make me want to buy books.

      --
      "If he thinks he can hide and run from the United States and our allies, he's sorely mistaken." Bush on bin Laden
    2. Re:Ambiance, baby, ambiance. by afniv · · Score: 2

      Don't forget about their $20/plate gourmet restaurant. It's called "Fourth Story" BTW.

      --
      ~afniv
      "Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
      Richard von Weizs
  24. Why bother to support your local bookstore? by melquiades · · Score: 5, Insightful

    One question:

    Can you imagine Barnes & Noble, Borders, or Amazon.com doing what the Tattered Cover has done?

    1. Re:Why bother to support your local bookstore? by dfenstrate · · Score: 2

      I wouldn't be suprised if they did. They're in the same business, and have the same concerns- Moreover, they have far more vast resources to fight any such request, without help from the ACLU or any bookseller's association.

      --
      Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
  25. Satire people, Satire by The+Raven · · Score: 2

    I'm amused that people do not notice satire when they see it... this thing should be +3 Funny, not +2 Insightful. And all those serious replies... sigh.

    The fact that the writer does not even coherently stick to the same point from beginning of post to end should clue people in that it was meant as humor.

    --
    "I will trust Google to 'do no evil' until the founders no longer run it." Hello Alphabet.
  26. Subpoena, not search warrant! by Spazmania · · Score: 5, Informative

    When I first read this, I thought: "That's very strange. Why shouldn't the police be able to get the book buying records of a legitimate criminal suspect? They can get phone company records and credit card records, right?"

    Pages 9 and 10 of the ruling make it clear:

    ---

    [Officer Goin] and DI McFarland then served the Tattered Cover with a DEA administrative subpoena. [...] Using such a subpoena was ordinarily a successful technique for DEA officers, though such a subpoena lacks any legal force or effect.

    [...]

    INSTEAD OF ATTEMPTING TO OBTAIN AN ENFORCEABLE SUBPOENA, Officer Goin approached prosecutors from the Adams County District Attorney's office to get a search warrant for the Tattered Cover. Several prosecutors at the Adams County DA's office refused to sign off on the warrant, voicing concerns about its scope and subject matter. [...]

    Without informing the Adams County DA's office, Officer Goin sought approval for his search warrant from the Denver DA's office. As approved by a Denver DA, the warrant authorized a search of the Tattered Cover for information related to the transaction in question, and for records of any other transaction involving Suspect A during the thirty-day period before the police searched the trailer. A Denver county court judge then approved the warrant.

    ---

    So, basically the Officer was a dope who tried to do an end-run around the law. Oops!

    --
    Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    1. Re:Subpoena, not search warrant! by Ian+Bicking · · Score: 2
      So, basically the Officer was a dope who tried to do an end-run around the law. Oops!
      Or perhaps he was a hardened street cop who played by his own rules.
    2. Re:Subpoena, not search warrant! by Happy+go+Lucky · · Score: 2, Informative
      So, basically the Officer was a dope who tried to do an end-run around the law. Oops!

      Or perhaps he was a hardened street cop who played by his own rules.

      I've got another idea.

      A lot of DA's offices here in Colorado will not help an officer get a warrant when the premises to be searched are outside of that judicial district. Our own, for instance, will often look at our affidavits and say "Nice warrant, but it's not in XXX county. Go speak to their DA's office instead."

      When a cop goes to a different DA, that's not an end run. An end run around the law would typically involve either perjury or not bothering to get a warrant at all before seizing. To search premises in the City and County of Denver, speak to a Denver DA and a Denver judge. It seems like common sense to me. However, I'm a cop, which means I know less about policing than the average slashdotter.

    3. Re:Subpoena, not search warrant! by Ian+Bicking · · Score: 2
      I don't buy it. I think he was fighting his own inner demons, driven by a passion that didn't leave room for messy regulations and protocol. He doesn't respect authority, but he does respect justice, which he deals out first-hand every day. He's a loose cannon, but he always finds the right man... at least until the courts get involved, and the all-too-common liberal DA's.

      He's probably been suspended so many times his chief has lost count years ago, but when your backed into a corner and the bad guys are closing in, there's no one you'd more want to have on your side.

      At least, that seems the most likely explanation to me. Unless he has a paper-shuffling side kick, who looks like a bore and is always telling him to shape up, but when regulations get in the way he gets in the way of the regulators. He can run circles around the chief and the mayor, but he got to confident... this time it seemed too easy, but those damn liberal book-store owners fouled it up. Next time he'll just have to break out the lock picks, papers be damned.

  27. free speech and anonymity by SethJohnson · · Score: 3, Insightful


    The question you appear to be asking here is whether or not free speech covers anonymous speech. This is still an issue that is being debated in the state courts. The KKK has been semi-succesful in overturning some state courts on this matter because they (along with ACLU backing) claim they should be able to march in rallies with their hoods hiding their identities.

    The Tattered Cover is trying to defend its right to sell (publish) books to anonymous readers. The thought here is that if book purchasers were aware that their reading habits were under scrutiny by the govt., then they would be less likely to purchase books containing unpopular opinions. This infringes on the Tattered Cover's ability to speak (sell books containing) unpopular opinions.

    Perhaps a more immediate example is your ability to post to slashdot as your own login or an Anonymous Coward. Wouldn't you feel like your 1st Amendment rights were being revoked if there wasn't that 'Post Anonymously' checkbox available? Obviously there are means to backtrack IP addresses, etc. in cases where a poster has threatened the life of the pres., etc. but those mechanisms wouldn't be used to suppress unpopular speech.
  28. This is what bugs me the most... by ONU+CS+Geek · · Score: 2
    From the Court Document (emphasis mine:)

    Officer Goin searched the Tattered Cover's webpage and discovered that it offered both books for sale. He and DI McFarland then served the Tattered Cover with a DEA administrative subpoena. This subpoena demanded the title of the books corresponding to the order and invoice numbers of the mailer, as well as information about all other book orders ever placed by Suspect A. Using such a subpoena was ordinarily a successful technique for DEA officers, though such a subpoena lacks any legal force or effect.

    So, the DEA can make up any 'subponea' that they want to, and as long as no one questions it, they can do what they damn well please? This just doesn't seem right. Lawywers? Anyone?

    --

    I disable sigs...do you?
  29. Re:Why would they withhold the purchase info? by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 2

    Because I think freedom of speech and freedom of the press is supposed to extend to the listener as well; if one cannot be persecuted for saying or printing a given thing, then people who listen to/read the same thing shouldn't face any sort of persecution. Otherwise, Senator McCarthy would probably be VERY interested to know why you're reading Mao Tse Tung's Little Red Book..what's that, political science major? Sure, I'll bet you're even going to graduate COMMIE cum laude.

    --
    Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
  30. Yeah! by Greyfox · · Score: 2
    And while we're at it, we should round up all the goddamn muslims and put them in concentration camps!

    Whoops! I call Goodwin's Law!

    --

    I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

  31. Re:I just don't get it by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 2
    Just another case of someone crying about "big brother" when the worst thing that could happen is that they know some guy buys hustler now and then. What an affront to privacy!
    You DO realize that use of pornography is generally listed as a 'profile indicator' of quite a few criminal archetypes. Others include the fact that arsonists, apparently, tend to wet the bed as children.
    --
    Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
  32. Re:Link Describing the situation by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 2

    Yes, that is legitimate. But asking what books the defendant has bought recently, on the grounds that if any of said books involve criminal activity, the defendant must have been planning a similar crime, is stupid. And that's the case here.

    --
    Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
  33. Jackbooted thugs by coyote-san · · Score: 2

    Let's get this straight - if the government gives you the right to speak on the corner soapbox but sends jackbooted thugs to beat anyone who dares to listen to you to a bloody pulp before dragging them off to jail, YOUR FREEDOM OF SPEECH IS WORTHLESS. The right to speech includes, as a necessary component, the right of others to listen to you in peace.

    That's Civil Liberties 101, and should be familiar to anyone arguing this case.

    That's why the American Library Association (ALA) has long held that patron's reading selections should be considered Constitutionally protected. Just as it is unconstitutional for the government to prevent the publication or distribution of a book, it should be considered unconstitutional for the government to post a cop in the stacks whose icy stare and hand on the butt of his gun must be endured to pick up a book, and even the threat of the cops reviewing a list of who has read a book should be done with great caution.

    The Tattered Cover sells books, instead of just lending them out, but the same arguments apply. IMHO, the ONLY reason this case has gotten as far as it has is that the Thornton police are asking for records about a specific purchase with evidence left at a crime scene, not just asking for a list of all purchasers of a specific book.

    --
    For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
  34. Re:Congratulations. by jonnythan · · Score: 2

    Way to split an infinitive.

  35. Freedom to think by HardCase · · Score: 3, Informative

    The court's decision is chock full of some very significant ideas and quotes from previous cases, many of which directly apply to another free speech issue - the DMCA.

    For example: "Without the right to receive information and ideas, the protection of speech under the United States and Colorado Constitutions would be meaningless."

    Or: "Everyone must be permitted to discover and consider the full range of expression and ideas available in our 'marketplace of ideas.'"

    Footnote 14 in the text of the decision is an absolutely brilliant quotation of Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis regarding the "freedom to think as you will and speak as you think".

    The decision is well worth reading. It's not in some sort of complex legalese. Far from it, it is very clearly stated.

    -h-

    1. Re:Freedom to think by drox · · Score: 2

      "Without the right to receive information and ideas, the protection of speech... would be meaningless."

      Or: "Everyone must be permitted to discover and consider the full range of expression and ideas available in our 'marketplace of ideas.'"


      Does the above apply only if the expressions and ideas are written in ink on paper?

      What if it were to apply to expressions and ideas written in ones and zeros?

  36. Thanks, TC by Pinball+Wizard · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Something most independent bookstores have in common is that they will fight tooth and nail to preserve your First Amendment rights. What Tattered just did was fight back what could easily be the first step on a slippery slope to eroding our rights. Think of what might happen next if Tattered lost. Publishers might become reluctant to publish so-called "subversive" material. Readers would have to be wary about which books they bought, knowing that the records could be subpeonaed.

    Think about that the next time you buy books. The big chains, amazon, et. al do not have this tradition of protecting your information - in fact they are looking at ways to make use of it for marketing purposes. Its the independent bookstores around the country who really care about defending the First Amendment, because that reflects in the quality of literature we will see, and ultimately reflects on our individual freedom to write and speak as we choose. When was the last time you saw "Banned Books week" at amazon.com or Barnes & Noble?

    Now we have a good legal precedent to back us up. Thanks, Tattered Cover!

    --

    No, Thursday's out. How about never - is never good for you?

  37. Before you break out the champagne, ... by blamanj · · Score: 5, Informative

    Note that under the so-called "Patriot Act", not only will the FBI be able to seize these kinds of records, but it will be illegal for the media to report on any such seizure. How's that for the ability to rewrite history, Soviet-style?

    Details here.

    The FBI was never here, go about your business.

    1. Re:Before you break out the champagne, ... by kindbud · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The Patriot Act is just like the DMCA. It's proponents are afraid to use its most draconian measures for fear that the result would be the courts striking the whole thing from the books. The Patriot Act, like the DMCA, is a means to cower the defenseless. No one who has the means to defend themselves will be attacked with any controversial provisions in the Patriot Act. In other words, the prohibition against the media reporting seizures is irrelevent, because no one the media would care to report on will be targetted by the seizure provisions.

      --
      Edith Keeler Must Die
  38. Speakers require listeners by coyote-san · · Score: 2

    If the state can't harass speakers, but can harass listeners, then the right to speak is pretty worthless.

    That's why the right to listen (or read) in peace is considered an integral part of the freedoms of speech and press. The government can't send the cops to harass listeners, or the FD to hit them with a fire hose, or even the FBI with sound gear they used in Waco.

    For a counterpoint, you should still be able to find people with living memory of fascist and communist regimes which had "freedom of speech"... but anyone foolish enough to be caught listening would be sent to the Gulag. Or the death camps.

    --
    For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
  39. A modest proposal by kindbud · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In the future, instead of linking to Amazon when you want to refer someone to a book, link to The Tattered Cover, like this:

    The Termcap Manual, by Richard Stallman.

    Support the folks that regard as important the same ideals you regard as important. Amazon is not your friend. The Tattered Cover is. They are fighting the good fight, and at no small cost to themselves. You should thank them by sending them your business and your friends' business.

    --
    Edith Keeler Must Die
    1. Re:A modest proposal by klocwerk · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Support the folks that regard as important the same ideals you regard as important. Amazon is not your friend. The Tattered Cover is. They are fighting the good fight, and at no small cost to themselves. You should thank them by sending them your business and your friends' business.

      Someone please mod this up, I'm out of mod points atm.
      How many of those people slamming microsoft for a monopoly will turn around and buy from Amazon, hmm?

      --

      "You worthless post!"
      -Shakespeare, 2 Gentlemen of Verona, 1. 1. 147
    2. Re:A modest proposal by White+Roses · · Score: 3, Interesting
      This is probably the best idea to hit /. in a while. Stop linking to Amazon, with their idiotic 1-Click patent, and start linking to someone who has better policies and practices. All my book links are going to them as of now.

      Thinking in Java, Bruce Eckel

      --
      Do not touch -Willie
    3. Re:A modest proposal by kindbud · · Score: 2

      I really hope they don't suffer lost business from the Slashdotting... I should buy Richard's book from them or something... ugh, Termcap!!! :(

      --
      Edith Keeler Must Die
    4. Re:A modest proposal by ghutchis · · Score: 2, Informative

      Better yet, please link to BookSense.com

      http://www.booksense.com/

      Not only does BookSense support the Tattered Cover (and tons of other local independent bookstores), but you can easily order from *your* local bookstore. Can Amazon beat same-day pickup?

      (BTW, the American Bookseller's Association which runs BookSense.com is partially supporting the Tattered Cover legal fees.)

      -Geoff

  40. This begs an interesting question by BillX · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Does the freedom of speech include the freedom to listen to the speech of others?

    Does the chilling effect of someone cataloguing that speech which you are privy to, and using it against you, abridge that right?

    --
    Caveat Emptor is not a business model.
  41. Civil Liberties by coyote-san · · Score: 2

    This is "civil liberties," and this case is relatively tame. You should be able to find a decent introductory textbook on any large college campus.

    --
    For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
  42. Re:1st Amendment? Not 4th? by Brand+X · · Score: 2

    Yes, this question has been addressed elsewhere. I'm sure other answers
    have been more eloquent and informed. But the question, here, even when
    answered elsewhere, begs to be answered here.



    1st amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


    This actually falls, in a roundabout way, under both abridgements of the
    right to speech without punishment (And how that has been weakened), and
    the right of the press to print without the editorial oversight of those
    who would be our moral parents.

    It ought, however, to also fall under the 4th amendment right you placed
    in bold. This has to do with the blurring of "papers" and "effects", as
    the constitution was written before so many agencies that would not have
    been considered protected regions for personal privacy started keeping a
    huge amount of private information.

    Honestly, there is a justification for, and a general acceptance of, the
    right of parties charged with maintaining peace, order, law, and justice
    to obtain certain information, in restricted circumstances, regarding an
    otherwise private detail of an individual being investigated in criminal
    matters. With public oversight of the process, and without a willful or
    careless dissemination of that private information, this becomes a valid
    and sensible tool.

    The problem here, in this case, is that the agency in question failed to
    reasonably limit the scope of their search. The key is "and no warrants
    shall issue ... particularly describing ... things to be seized." There
    is some degree of lattitude, and in many cases, they may have been right
    in their blanket request for "purchase records of X from store Y", where
    store Y was of a particular class of store and one of those records was,
    with a reasonable degree of probability, known to contain information on
    a specific purchase. It's a double bind, you see. They know the record
    in question exists, but not the date, and if the case is still uncertain
    and the suspect still just that (in theory, until conviction), a privacy
    argument (protecting against careless dissemination) could justify their
    blanket request. Local police might even be thought of as unable to, in
    most cases at least, abuse this particular data, though there are cases,
    especially where "Christian Values" is a buzzword for "We're going to be
    a little facist state here, and if you don't like it, you can go move to
    some big city, you hear?", where that is decidedly not true.

    So... had they asked only for documentation of that specific purchase, a
    reasonable request if not made spuriously as part of a trolling attempt,
    they would have been right. But they asked for all records, which is an
    obvious troll.

    Now the first ammendment comes into the issue, and compounds the search,
    which was already iffy, with what could easilly fall under harassment of
    the free press. Amending the rights of the press doesn't just mean that
    the publication of a paper which says, "Bush is utterly incompetant, and
    that was painfully obvious from his original strategy in Afghanistan, as
    all of you should have seen, and would have, if you weren't so blind and
    stupid with rage. And I'm sure, if he were carefully investigated, that
    it would turn out he was still snorting coke," which exercises the free
    criticism of a public personage, even to the point of near slander (that
    would be the coke line, the first part was a fact, not an accusation) is
    protected. It also means that the publisher of said paper has the right
    not to have goons hired by a corrupt and facist president harassing him,
    or police spending more time investigating him (as opposed to more time,
    in the case of someone who has publicly voiced an intention to kill that
    devolved primate in question, and done so in a credible manner, checking
    very carefully to make sure the second individual is not actually trying
    to do so... but not, for example, checking to see if he smokes pot), and
    in that respect, monitoring the consumption of published goods is indeed
    a 1st amendment issue. It is an issue of principal. I read. I read in
    great volume, and from a great many fields. A watchdog agency might get
    some funny ideas from what I read, though not internally consistant ones
    if they tried to make a criminal pattern of it. But more important than
    whether they might get suspicious (and the degrees in physics and a wide
    range of hobbies and my current work in artificial nerves explain all of
    the nonfiction, aside from the anthropological elements, which are taken
    from my dad, an anthropologist... so they can just back off, thank you,)
    is whether they might try to profile. I have a friend who the DEA tried
    to harrass because he'd been purchasing botanical books and supplies, of
    a potentially drug related (and RPGs lead to satanic cults) nature. The
    SOBs just ignored the fact that he was a botanist (PhD) and worked for a
    legal agricultural hemp research program on the big island of Hawai'i, a
    tendancy that's common with those criminal thugs.

    He ceased to do business with Barnes N Noble after that visit.

    Now, would you trust an agency like the DEA to be honest, or even legal,
    in its use of personal information about your reading habits? Would you
    purchase books that might be "considered suspicious"? Even if they were
    not for criminal purposes? What about books that might be embarassments
    if publicly displayed? I buy certain books relating to recovering from,
    and dealing with, certain severe forms of child abuse. I don't but them
    for myself. I'm recovered just fine, thank you, thanks to some luck and
    a few remarkable people... but some of the people I buy them for are not
    yet able to admit that it happened to them, at least in the face of this
    judgemental and often revolted public, and don't believe that there will
    never be some suspicious and unscupled person snooping through the books
    they have purchased, and outing them.

    Hell, the same probably applies to gay rights books...

    And you want an agency with that track record pushing the limit of this?
    The people who publish such books might as well hang their hats, if that
    happens. No one will risk buying the books if big brother is watching.

    --
    -- Still waiting for the Nike endorsement
  43. Re:This is a WORD file!!! by JamesOfTheDesert · · Score: 2
    Gee, I thought one of those uber-source things, like Star Office, could read every document format known to Man.

    Seems every week there's a story on Slashdot about how we can all ditch MS Office.

    --

    Java is the blue pill
    Choose the red pill
  44. Re:Why would they withhold the purchase info? by TheAwfulTruth · · Score: 2

    Except that as an absolute (as you and most everyone else here put it) it's completely untrue. You ARE responsible for what your say or write and for what you read. (Re: Child porn) It's not at all black and white and yet those are the only 2 colors ever presented here :(

    --
    Contrary to popular belief, coding is not all free blow-jobs and beer. Those things cost MONEY!
  45. What's the big deal? by Eric+Damron · · Score: 2

    As long as the police followed due process in obtaining a warrent, I don't see a problem.

    Believe it or not sometimes it is necessary for law enforcement officials to invade our privacy and that's why a warrent is required. A warrent must be issued by a Judge and if the warrent isn't given out capriciously then it should be honored.

    --
    The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
  46. Tattered Cover commited no crime by coyote-san · · Score: 2

    It's a nuanced point, but the 4th Amendment usually applies to the subject of a criminal investigation, not witnesses.

    The guy with the meth lab could claim 4th Amendment rights since he was being investigated for a criminal act.

    But the Tattered Cover, technically, was a witness whether he legally purchased a legally published book on criminal acts. They were not, and could never be, charged with any crime. Since they weren't in jeopardy, the 4th Amendment doesn't apply.

    In contrast, had the "anti-pornography" amendment passed a few years ago then they could be charged with a criminal act for selling certain books, and the 4th Amendment would apply. Fortunately that Amendment was shot down, in part due to the efforts of the owner of the Tattered Cover.

    --
    For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
  47. Re:This begs an interesting question: by coyote-san · · Score: 2

    Yes, Freedoms of Speech and Press includes the right of others to listen/read in peace.

    This means that the police can't hassle the audience - they can't question you, or demand you identify yourself, or even (arguably) photograph the crowd in an aggressive manner. This is especially noteworthy in light of the recent disclosure that the Denver Police (and remember that it was a Denver DA that signed off on this after the cop's own DA refused to) have been maintaining overly-broad files on "gang" members.

    The police can still act in the name of compelling public interest, e.g., keeping people from spilling onto the street, from blocking passage by others, etc.

    --
    For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
  48. Re:i am quite confused by AdrianG · · Score: 2

    Actually, its MUCH more complicated than that. This case really is about "unreasonable search and siesure", but the fact that it touches on the first amendment bring a higher standard for justifying the search into play. It touches on the first amendement basically because it appears that the governement seeks to strengthen its case based on the kind of information that a defendant sought to aquire through purchasing books. Any attempt by government to suggest guilt because someone chose to seek information about a controversial subject really does have a chilling effect on free speech.

    Note that this case is not about hiding someone's fraudulent use of a credit card in buying a book, or about proving that a suspect was at a bookstore at the time the purchase occurred. This is about the government suggesting that the suspect's choice of the book implies a stronger case for the suspect's guilt.

    The decision DID NOT say the search warrant must have been invalid. The decision was, for the most part, narrowly directed at the fact that the procedure that resulted in the warrant was "Ex Parte", or one sided.

    Ex Parte proceedings that result in search warrants are often justified on the theory that a suspect might destroy or arrange to destroy evidence if he is warned that there is a judicial proceeding planned during which he can argue against the issue of the warrant. In other words, the government has, in cases where the proposed warrant would be served on a suspect, a compelling interest in surprising the suspect with the warrant.

    In this case, the warrant, in question, would be served on an innocent third party, where there was no reason on record to suppose that this third party might attempt to destroy evidence if warned that the government sought to compel it to give up the evidence.

    The higher court found that the plantif (the book store) has a reasonable chance of winning their case, that the lower court wasn't quite applying the right test for suitability of warrant application, and that there was no justification for the ex parte nature of the proceeding that produced the warrant. The higher court set the lower court's decision aside and told it to try again. This is not the end of the case.

    Adrian

  49. Re:With a warrant? What's the beef? by studerby · · Score: 2
    If you'd bother to read the judges opinion, it would explain it all for you; however to synopsize...

    The First Amendment guarantees "freedom of speech" and "freedom of the press".
    The Supreme Court has decided that this entails a "freedom to read" without supervision of the government.
    The Supreme Court has further decided that libraries and bookstores have the right to defend this "freedom to read", both as a matter of public policy and to further their own economic interests, to prevent the "chilling effect" of governmental monitoring.

    Incidentally, the Court's opinion noted that the local cops(Thornton, CO) were unable to get a warrant from the local DA's office, even after approaching numerous ADAs, because they all thought it was improper; they eventually got their warrant from the Denver DA, despite the fact that the crime was not committed in that jurisdiction.

    --

    .sig generation error:468(3)

  50. This must be UNAMERICAN!!!! by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 2
    bookcases all the way up the stairwell...
    But... how can the people there can be watching TV commercials??? This place is UNAMERICAN!!!
  51. It's kinda funny, but... by Alex+Belits · · Score: 2

    ...I have came for a cup of coffee and ricochet-covered location (long story) to the Tattered Cover bookstore, and first thing I see on my notebook on slashdot is... a story about tattered cover ;-).

    --
    Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
  52. Re: 1st Amendment? Not 4th? by phliar · · Score: 2
    The 1st Amendment rights being protected are those of the author of the book.

    I have the right to write a book on "How To Make Methamphetamine".

    You have the right to buy and read this book. In a raid on a meth lab, the cops found this book. Now if the state can, in the investigation of this crime (running a meth lab), subpoena the records of the bookstore to get a list of everyone who bought "How To Make Methamphetamine", they know you bought that book even though you have no connection at all with the crime, and were never a suspect.

    I think you'll agree that this will tend to make you not buy that book. Your privacy has been invaded.

    And this impacts my freedom to write and publish that book.

    Any restriction on writing, publishing, selling, and lending books will infringe authors' First Amendment rights. When we pass laws that infringe, we must be very sure that there is a clear and compelling reason to do so, viz. "shouting 'fire!' in a crowded theatre". Routine fact-gathering during a criminal investigation does not qualify (IMHO).

    (Note: your video renting records are protected thanks to the Clarence Thomas confirmation brouhaha.)

    --
    Unlimited growth == Cancer.
  53. Re: Kneejerk slashdot response by phliar · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Quoth Binx Bolling:
    Probable cause + Warrant = Perfectly legal
    I bought a copy of a book on how to make methamphetamines from this bookstore. In a raid on a meth lab, the cops found this book. In the trashcan outside, they found an envelope from the bookstore.

    Now the cops want the bookstore to give them a list of all people who bought the book. Where's probable cause? Why should the cops know anything about my reading habits?

    If we live in a climate where unpleasant books we buy bring us to the attention of the State, do we still have freedom of expression?

    The State no longer will need to ban books. Ashcroft merely says "We will be subpoena'ing all bookstore records for purchasers of Book X."

    As the article says, books are different from fertilizer.

    --
    Unlimited growth == Cancer.
  54. The right to read by achurch · · Score: 2

    While you're at it, here's one RMS would like: "The right of freedom of speech and press includes . . . the right to read . . ." (footnote 11)

  55. Re:I must not understand this by Happy+go+Lucky · · Score: 2, Interesting
    If this is indeed the case, then what is the fuss about? Can not the police search your house and gain access to your records if they have obtained a warrant?

    It's not quite the case. It was a subpoena, not a warrant.

    A warrant is a document commanding police to search a given place and seize certain items found therein. A subpoena is a document on the court's authority commanding a person or entity to turn over certain documents to the court. It doesn't typically involve having cops go and search premises for those items.

    When I serve a search warrant, I'm working under certain rules. Basically, if a person refuses to open a door after I've knocked and announced and waited the reasonable time required by law, then we knock the door down. If a person refuses to unlock a container that could contain the items named in the warrant, we break it open. If the person obstructs us, we arrest him for obstructing a peace officer.

    If they're served with a subpoena and have some reason for not complying, they can try to have the subpoena quashed by the court-IIRC, this is what the bookstore did. Or they can refuse to comply without actually doing it the way the law requires, and that opens the door to contempt proceedings. But subpoenas can be quashed by a court, since the time factor common with warrants usually doesn't exist with subpoenas. They're not generally for evidence which will decay over time or be destroyed by a guilty party if not seized.

  56. Why keep a list of what I buy? by lythander · · Score: 2

    The problem here isn't that government is trying to violate my first amendment rights by looking at what I buy, it's that the booksellers aid and abet them by keeping a list of what I bought in the first place!!!!!