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Non x-86/Mac-PPC Workstations?
Aknaton asks: "As I begin to plan for my annual fall purchase of new hardware, I would like to try something different. I have already owned several PPC Macs running MacOS X and many PCs but they still leave me wanting more. I have begun looking for non-Apple/X86 alternatives but I am not finding much. SGI still makes machines but they don't even list prices. Sun offers the SunBlade 100, for just under a grand and it is a consideration. Can anyone else suggest, or know of, any other options? Or is it just a PC world after all?"
You can still find good HP-UX/PA-RISC and Alpha workstations. Even though they are both supposedly architectures that are heading to that great recycle bin in the sky. Some of the HP machines are really neat, and you never hear much about them because SUN pretty much owned the market. I'm not 100% sure on IBM machines, but their PowerPC chips are quite different to the ones you find in Apple boxen. You may want to take a look on ebay or wherever else you can get this kind of stuff.
Sure, you can get MIPS, SPARC, Alpha, PowerPC, StrongARM, or something even more esoteric, but what's the point? You'll end up running the same code, just compiled to a different processor. Despite the technical shortcomings of the X86, the processor can still run anything you can compile. Sure there are annoying BIOS issues. But when you come down to running real code, even most of the kernel code, it doesn't matter one bit what processor you have.
Get an alpha or vax or MIPS or something. There is a lot to choose from out there, hell!
Karma: Good (despite my invention of the Karma: sig)
The new Amiga One hardware. This is was the subject of a previous article. Outside of the CPU, it looks to take pretty much standard PeeCee hardware, but it's PPC based and it runs Linux right now...it will run AmigaOS once the nextgen OS is completed.
Maybe a more interesting challenge would be to hunt down some legacy hardware you never worked with, for example. An Amiga or Atari ST might be an interesting challenge, and both still have vibrant developer and user communities (maybe too vibrant, in the case of the Amiga ;) ), and represent substantially different hardware and software architectures than you're likely to run into today.
Just a thought, this may be a bit off-topic from what you're doing -- I don't know if you're looking to do "useful" things with this machine or just tinker.
-A.
What did the walrus say to the penguin? "No soap, radio."
What leaves you wanting? The OS choices? The processor architectures? Gui's available? Ability to talk to the BIOS via serial console? The coolness factor (hey, look at me, I run an AS/400 in my basement!)...
Do you just want to be different?
It's impossible to even begin answering your question without knowing why you're dissatisfied with x86/PPC...
I'm writing this from a Mac running OS X, which is sitting next to my OS 9 box for photoshop, which is next to my 2 x86 linux boxes for playing quake. My home directory is shared to all via NFS from my x86 freebsd box, which sits on the rack next to an *old* HP-PA box running HP-UX since that's what we run at work, and 2 sparcs running Solaris serving up web pages for no reason other than that Solaris is kewl. Any one of these can do pretty much everything any of the others can do (except for the HP. 80Mhz PA-Risc just don't cut it...)
Now what, exactly, did you want your workstation to do that it doesn't do now?
Be ot or bot ne ot, taht is the nestquoi.
jump into the world of 64-bit computing, preferably with an Ebay scavenged alpha or a x86-64 machine, which should be out then (Opteron just hasn't had time to grow on me)
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Check out http://www.reputable.com. They sell used SGI systems. You can pick up an O2 or Octane for under $1000.
Go to E-Bay and find a C64; have a blast!
look around for a used Lear Siglear ADM3a terminal. These things are fun-ky. They support upper & lower case, maximum speed of 9600 baud, are packaged in a case that was the inspiration for the orinal iMac.
perfect!
There's no real answer. It's just sort of a thing that's particular to a sub-set of geeks: The desire to have as many different architectures running as possible. It's one of those things like people who collect stuff (stamps, cards, 1st edition books, etc), if you have to ask 'Why?' you're obviously not in that group and it's likely you never will be.
"I won't mod you down - I feel the need to call you a twit explicitly, rather than by implication."
I have a Blade 100. Of my three desktops (I also use an IBM Thinkpad A20P and a 950Mhz Athlon), it is definitely the slowest for interactive use - terrible graphics performance is the biggest culprit here, even when I use WindowMaker instead of CDE - and really loses the price/performance war to the other two machines.
If you "need" to have a Sparc machine, it's a nice option for the budget conscious, but I honestly have to say I think you'll be disappointed with it if you want to replace a relatively recent Intel or PPC machine
You'll have to spend a few more dollars than that to get a RISC workstation that will beat a $1000 Intel machine.
Or do what I did and get yourself a Apple IIFX(another ex-supercomputer, just a bit cheaper), put a Radius Rocket in it and try running Linux on it.
If you want it a bit easier, get yourself a IICX and run NetBSD on it (nice and easy).
...but no more... the alpha workstation seems to have gone the way of the dinosaur.
http://tinyurl.com/4ny52
So....you're looking to buy hardware for which you have no need or use, but you're concerned about the price?
My suggestion is to browse the vintage computer auctions at eBay. You'll get the same amount of value for it, and it'll be a lot cheaper.
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
But my 6-year old son hogs it all the time to play Doom. =]
I don't know if I'd recommend it for a general workstation. I'm running IRIX 6.5.15, and it's as ugly as ever. Haven't loaded up gnome yet.
It all comes down to application support. If you're just wanting to run normal desktop stuff, forget it. Stick to x86 or Mac. But if it's just out of curiosity and a desire to learn, hit eBay and get yourself a variety. I've got VAXstations, an AlphaStation, a couple of SPARCstations, a NeXTstation, and the SGI. Not to mention the bigger stuff.. a couple of MicroVAXen and a VAX 6000-510. In all, I've spent maybe $1000 on odd hardware, and most of that was for the Alpha and the SGI. The rest were free or under $100. Ok, the VAX wound up costing me a bit for truck rental and medical bills after hauling around 80-pound hard drives, but it was still under $100. And the former owner bought me dinner for hauling it away.
Take a look at the secondary market of Sun hardware. For less than $1000, you can have an Ultra 2 workstation with SCSI disks and SMP capability. Or you get an older SPARCstation 10 or 20 that still supports SCSI-2 and up to 4 CPUs.
While these computers won't win CPU2000 flame wars, they really are beautiful machines that have full firmware, super-clean layout, and integrated Ethernet and SCSI. Also, you can run Solaris 8, Linux, NetBSD, and OpenBSD on them. They make great personal workstations (I have KDE on a 40MHz SS10--still usable) or great file or web servers. On top of that, they run forever (my SS10 is now 10 years old). Because they're SCSI, you can put big disks into them (9GB, no problem) and connect external tapes, CDROMs and Zip drives to them. Even the old ones support gobs of ram (at least 512MB). If you can figure it out, the SS10s even have integrated ISDN interfaces.
In short, they are a joy to work with.
There are many vendors, so be sure to get several quotes. Some vendors are arrogant and still think they can charge an arm and a leg for old hardware. Don't let them get you down, because you will find a good price if you are persistent. Also, try eBay or other auctions.
Healthcare article at Kuro5hin
In another month, the US version of the Linux kit for the Playstation 2 is coming out. It comes with a hard drive, a VGA monitor connector, a keyboard and mouse and an ethernet adaptor. I already have mine pre-ordered, and I bought the acutal console last week.
As a side note, be sure to get Grand Theft Auto 3! Oh, the carnage!
The briQ is a PowerPC based network appliance computer. Measuring just 5.74 inches wide, 1.625 inches tall and 8.9 inches deep (the size of a CD-ROM drive), it offers developers and OEMs a versatile platform for a wide range of applications and products such as firewalls, routers, security devices and web servers.
The briQ was designed with versatility in mind and is available with either a PowerPC 750 (G3) or 7400 (G4) processor and are upgradable in both speed and processor type. Storage and memory are also easily upgradable using standard industry components. The briQ also allows the flexibility to run any PowerPC based Linux distribution available.
Board Picture
Data Sheet
Software
Hardware Specifications
CPU: PowerPC 750 (G3) or 7400 (G4) - Upgradable CPU module
Chipsets: Northbridge - IBM CPC710-100+, Southbridge - Winbond W83C553
Memory: Two 168 DIMM sites, support for up to 512Mb of SDRAM, 3.3V, unbuffered PC-100 SDRAM
Local Bus: Local 60X bus speed: 100MHz 64-bit
BootROM/BIOS: Open Firmware, supports remote boot
Storage: IDE - 44 pin, 2mm connector, up to 40GB internal hard drive
Serial: 16550C UART (w/FIFO), RS-232 interface, DE-9 connector
Network: 10/100Base TX Ethernet
Power Consumption: 15 to 30 Watts
Expansion: 64-bit, 66MHz PCI connector (custom)
Front Panel Display: Programmable Vacuum Florescent Display (VFD), 2 X 20 characters Two push button switches, bi-color LED
Debug and Development: PCPLD ISP, BDM/COP, JTAG
Dimensions: 5.74 X 1.625 X 8.9 inches
Weight: From 1.85 pounds
Software Specifications
Operating System: PowerPC Linux - Yellow Dog Linux Pre-installed
Development Environment: GNU C/C++ compiler, Text Editors, Debuggers
Warranty: One year parts and labor.
Ordering Information
briQ w/PowerPC G3 (750) 500MHz, 256MB SDRAM, 10GB HDD - $1,499
briQ w/PowerPC G4 (7400) 500MHz, 512MB SDRAM, 20GB HDD - $1,999
Contact Sales Department for other configurations.
"The Most Fun Possible on 4 wheels" is at SunBuggy in Las Vegas
Some Other Info for Scroungers
It's a nice machine, with a PC motherboard modified only with a Sun northbridge and removed PS/2 connectors (the processor is even socket-370!).
However, be careful with these because the normal advantage of Suns is their (1) scalability and (2) Tremendous I/O bandwidth. With only one CPU, it's obviously not scaled very far, and the I/O bandwidth just isn't there for the blade 100- it's essentially a PC's 32/33 I/O system, but it's further choked by the fact that the CPU is only 500MHz (or 600, if you buy from sun's ebay store).
The usual advantages of USII architecture are lost on this system - the slow clock speed is not compensated by large cache, fast I/O, or tremendous scalability. The only reason to buy one (and this is why I own it) is if you are devloping for big Suns and you want binary compatibility with them on your desktop. Go instead for PC hardware with Linux, or if you really want, Solaris x86 (but don't expect binary compatibility with big suns). If you really want a non-pc desktop, shell out the cash for a single-CPU blade 1000 (starts at $6000, but if you're in any way connected with an academic institution you can get it for about $4000.) Otherwise, it's probably not worth it.
Good luck!
I did not design this game/I did not name the stakes/I just happen to like apples/And I am not afraid of snakes-AniD
A SGI O2 would probably be what I would get if I were in your situation. I think they run in the $0 to $5000 range now a days (don't have any exact prices, sorry).
I think IRIX makes for a decent operating system, and it's X implementation is the best I've ever used. I think a lot less people would be bashing X if they had used IRIX!
Some machines have special hardware features. Usually you can get the same features with a PCI card, but not always. However, this is no longer something you'll see on a consumer-level machine.
SGI is a prime example. They sell some impressive graphics systems that don't have any real competition in the PC or Mac worlds. But these are not toys for individuals -- they're expensive tools that big companies buy, and then only after carefully weighing the alternatives.
Over the years, SGI has tried to market its alternatives to the commodity PC. Kind of pointless -- people who need PCs buy PCs. They did finally wise up to this, but much too late.
There used to be more systems like this (the Amiga is a prime example), but all except the Mac have essentially disappeared. And even the Mac makes little comprimises with the commodity marketplace -- like that obscene PC-compatible keyboard.
If you're thinking that owning a Sun will offer you a novel user experience, forget it. Solaris totally lags behind in UI design. That's why Sun has turned to the GNOME people to help them update it. People buy Sun workstations to run high-performance software -- from the command line!
Whoops! I seem to have ended up totally agreeing with crow. Oh well!
Can it run anything besides Linux?
but they still leave me wanting more.
Leave you wanting more... what? Tuna fish? If you want tuna fish, you're pretty much out of luck. Apple stopped selling tuna fish about the time the Lisa didn't come out, and MS simply refuses to acknowledge tuna compliant systems. No one makes tuna drivers anymore, so you'll be stuck with an old outdated driver on an old outdated OS (or worse, an emulator!) and the hardware stinks. Sure, it smells ok for a day or two, but your friends and SO will leave in a flash if you don't pay the high maintenance costs. Good tuna isn't cheap.
-Adam
This isn't a computer, it's a damned network appliance. NAs have their uses, but they're nothing like what we're taling about. And cutting and pasting all that crap from the same site you've just linked to is pretty lame as well.
I don't know I'm too cheap to buy one and find out
"The Most Fun Possible on 4 wheels" is at SunBuggy in Las Vegas
I've used several "souped-up" Sun Blade 100's. They are so slooooow it's not even funny. This is with a minimal installation, and I wouldn't even think about running Gnome on it. The Blade 1000's are decent though, albeit more expensive.
If you need a focus, think robotics. Or wearability. Or rocketry. If you don't mind starting over a lot, try to make something that can swim.
You get the idea.
-- MarkusQ
Bigger, faster, more software, funky case, more electricity?
ix86 gives you the biggest bang for your buck. Add a decent open BIOS to the flash and you have a reasonable workstation that's cheap, fast and compatible with millions of others.
If I had a few $ to burn on esoteric hardware, I would scourge Ebay and local auction house for second-hand Unix workstation (Sun, SGI, maybe an HP or a RS/6K). Relatively recent box can be had for a few hundred bucks.
:wq
Depends what you want it for.
As I've stated elsewhere in the thread, I've got one. What you get for your $995 USD is pretty much the same guts as a Netra X1 (smaller HD and a different bus speed I believe) but much more suitable as a hobbyist's server than a Netra.
We use Netras extensively at work (they make very nice, reliable, and cheap, web servers especially if you are a Sun reseller) but for my home machine I wanted something that could drive a monitor, accept PCI cards and had a CD-ROM drive. For that reason I gave up the slightly faster bus speed, LOM features and dual NICs of the Netra, in favour of a Blade.
Yes, if you are looking for a workstation to replace a post-1999 Intel or PPC box you should probably look elsewhere, but if you want a nifty little home server that doubles as a workstation, it's hard to go wrong with a Blade.
Used SGI systems are still fantastic computers, and they're amazingly cheap due to the sad decline of the company. I have an Indigo2 R10000 system that I bought about six months ago for $400 (not including monitor since I already had a SGI monitor). Now you can get an Octane for less then $1,000.
:-).
SGI's main distinction aside from cool case designs is Irix, their Unix-based OS. And the main advantage of Irix is that the user interface is still superior to anything else out there, with the possible exception of Apple. Sun's efforts in this direction were so anemic that they are now switching to Gnome, the same design you'll see under Linux.
The biggest disadvantage is that you have to beg, borrow or steal the C compiler, which is not free. I've found that most resellers will sneak it on for you if you ask them nicely enough.
If you don't want to do that, you have to install GCC, which can be an amazing pain.
My Indigo2 is solid as a rock and hasn't given me a minute of trouble since I bought it. Very cool.
Greg Douglas of Reputable.com is a great guy, or you can cheap out with eBay.
This all being said, the Mac running MacOS X is such a compelling option nowadays that it's difficult to ignore. If you want a system you can run Photoshop on AND use as a Unix box, MacOS X is what you really need.
I run both MacOS X and SGI and love them for what I need them for. Certainly I greatly prefer either to Linux, ans as for Windows, well, let's not go there
D
Check www.reputable.com for some pretty good prices on a used Silicon Graphics Octane workstation (also links for more information). EBay is also an option, but beware of scratch and dent "deals". Octane runs IRIX 6.4 and 6.5. Latest version of 6.5.X can be downloaded from support.sgi.com. Great machine, more than fast enough for me.
then you *need* to visit their freeware site... http://freeware.sgi.com. Gobs of freeware (including GNOME and gcc) compiled for IRIX. Site is updated quarterly (as is IRIX 6.5.X at http://support.sgi.com/irix).
Haven't seen any on the cheap yet but they'll start showing up.
I have a SunBlade 100 as a database server for some basic Oracle development.
Runs gnome beta great, havent upgraded the box in ages so I havent loaded the Ximian official.
Id say upgrade the primary IDE hard drive and memory for the Blade 100, other than that, its a top notch desktop!
Jarett
it will run AmigaOS once the nextgen OS is completed.
So, you're saying it'll never run anything but Linux.
You can get these things on Ebay fairly inexpensively. If you get a C180 or better it should have the 64-bit PA-8200 processor. The Linux port is progressing nicely. I'd stay away from the 32 bit machines as they are a bit on the sluggish side. I just recently picked up a C200 for about $200 and it makes a nifty toy to play with.
Clickety Click
I don't want to drag flamewars over from the Amiga messageboards, but the fact is that bPlan is, at present, promoting a friendlier sales model for Linux/BSD users, and perhaps more importantly, claim a better array of OSes lined up off the bat (Yellow Dog and NetBSD, vs. TurboLinux for Eyetech's board). The AmigaOne and Pegasos are pretty comparable from a hardware standpoint.
I admire both boards; however, Eyetech and Amiga's business models are heading to 'OS tax' territory, and they don't consider the "developers' edition" AmigaOne as a consumer product (the debates over an eventual LinuxOne continue on...). If you want to run AmigaOS 4, by all means, get an AmigaOne, but if you have no intentions of moving off Linux/NetBSD for the moment (or you're thinking of building a few hundred Linux/BSD workstations), bPlan will provide better support.
Let me tell you my story, I am typing this from a 180Mhz SGI o2 - This is my main workstation.
:-)
:-)
(nb to those who don't know: 180Mhz on something like an SGI is _nothing_ like 180Mhz in the x86 world! The latest o2's are 350Mhz)
Also in my cabbin are an 200Mhz Alpha (KN15 IIRC) in a DEC 3000/400, a MicroVAX III (KA650-A), and some x86 boxen at 450Mhz and SMP 2x 800Mhz. The DEC gear runs NetBSD, the SGI runs IRIX 6.5 and Linux on the x86s'
Now, for my point, while there is more guts in the x86 800Mhz for raw kernel compiling, it dosen't much matter to me, all what I do is remote. This may not be the case with you, but for me I want a box with A+ build quality for the workstation that I am at, and when all I am doing is in Nutscrape or SSH the who cares even what OS I am typing from
(FWIW, IRIX 6.5 is quite comfortable as a desktop box)
The Best Bit?The SGI o2 I got on ebay for the price I paid for ONE of the CPUs in the x86 800Mhz when it was new. All the DEC gear included and it was still cheaper then building the 800Mhz box
It's all unix so there is no big deal changing between systems (I don't code low-level enough to notice anyway) - and as for gaming, there are the Dell boxes at work for UT lol
Seriously tho, to answer the question (this is A/. after all) If you need to compile wild amounts of code or you want to be able to run a massive code base, then run x84, pay your MSFT tax, and install the os-of-choice when you get it home. Upgrade and repeat.
If your hard core processing is elsewhere, run something that has some Quality in it's build (hardware and software) - it lets you get back to the real reason that you are in front of the box in the first place.
Good (dead) old Acorn made some of the best hardware and software of the era. Try a RiscStaion and run RiscOS on it.