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Breaking Old Regulations and Old Habits
tadghin writes ""Under the current regulatory regime, 802.11 would never have been legalized." Andy Oram reports this comment by David Reed in his summary of a wireless policy BOF session at the O'Reilly Emerging Technology conference. Andy discusses some of the hidden regulatory threats to wireless networking and what we might do about them, as well as many of the other sessions he attended, in a conference report on Wednesday's sessions."
AC's in half.
its all about the pf baby OPENBSD
security through obscurity = modding down anti-linux posts so maybe noone will see them
props
I'm getting a bit sick of all of the industry friendly spectrum giveaw^H^H^H^H^H^Hauctions. How about a bit of spectrum for wireless broadband?
Don't anthropomorphize computers, they don't like it.
Unfortunantly, as long there is greed in the world, there will always be problems with government legalization. In addition, fear is often also a driving factor. Just look at the large amount of products out there to protect users from cell phonce radiation. People are always scared of new things. Especially if it has the oppurtunity to relive them of some of the money that they have been earning(drug war anyone?).
me no like
This is grossly offtopic, but I came across this hilarious snap of Linus and Alan working together on some kernel code. Mod it down, by all means, but you must see this!
Image at http://abacus.sj.ipixmedia.com/abc/M28/_EBAY_57b55 557edaab5a4945526b8f/i-1.JPG.
Looks like they're working on a tricky algorithm...
Bov.
Excellent (rubbs fingers in anticipation) this will be my day. I can FINAlLY unveil my new "SNEAKERNET"! No more worries about anything.. oh wait, what about if someone runs off with those sneakers, what then... maybe this is too soon for "SNEAKERNET"! ..... some day.... someday soon... bua ha ha ha
His proposals for improving the situation included:
The oft-heard suggestion to make software manufacturers liable for defects.
....
(Note: software companies are doing their damnedest to move in the opposite direction, by pushing UCITA laws that would let them get away with releasing known defects.)
....
Making other companies liable for their own systems as well. They'd act differently if they knew they could be sued when their customers' social security numbers were released.
Oh sounds great. So we get to sue the crappy coders. Nice. How about having a huge fine for companies that release crappy code? That sounds great too!
Except that Microsoft could afford to pay up the fine AND face any huge lawsuits by sheer muscle power. As would Sun. Or for that matter any of the bigger companies. It would mean nothing to them, and people would still continue to buy their stuff.
But what about Opensource? Whom would you hold responsible? If it becomes a law for one, it's law for another.
As Schneier said, "Security is a people problem, not a technical problem." Actually, the people he was referring to at that moment were not the malicious crackers themselves, but the crowds of negligent programmers, managers, data centers, and policy-makers who tolerate weak security.
Yeah, but please note that it is not just corporates who churn out bad code, not just companies. And if it did become a law that bad code will be punished, corporates can fight. A lonely hacker cannot, atleast not that easily. It would hit the OSS community and companies based on the movement a whole lot worse than the big guys.
Utopian, yes. Pragmatic? No.
VOTE!
------
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
Alright I was reading a couple stories and I just decided to share this little
.45 as soon as he stepped foot on my property.
story about the time I hit it with a Jew girl using deception and cunning. LOL.
I mean it's not real hard to act like another person or make others believe you
are.
When I was a senior in high school last year not long before my 18th birthday I
was just cruising through school. After we changed classes at the end of second
semester I got into a class with this really hot girl named Cindy who I was
sitting by in the seating chart, well I knew from the first day I was gonna try
and hit it with this girl, but I didn't think it would be nearly as complicated
as it turned out. One day in class we had to pair up and do this project (it was
history class) and it was on the Cold War, well into the convo we started
talking about those Jew Rosenberg's selling the atom bomb and I said "well what
the hell do you expect for those fucking kikes?" and she looked at me and said
"what did you just say?" and I repeated myself and she said, "You ignorant
asshole I'm Jewish," and I looked at her and said, "Well sux to be you" and
started laughing. Well we didn't talk the rest of the project, I just let her do
the work then I guess to be a dick I acted like I was scratching my arm and
pulled up the sleeve to show my Neo-Nazi tattoo to her (I am a proud and loyal
NNLR member) and she said, "I can't believe I am sitting next to a Nazi," and I
was like, "I am unfortunately not a Nazi, I missed the good old days," and
started laughing and man was she pissed.
To go on, well we went through the next few weeks barely saying anything to each
other and me and A.J. (a fellow NNLR in my class) would sometimes say some shit
to her. Well it pissed her off enough to try and get her boyfriend after me so
he came up to my table and asked me about some shit and I ended fucking him up
in the lunch room, I mean it was a weak fight with some Jew-loving soccer player
against me a pure Aryan linebacker. LOL. I ended up getting 10 days out for
drawing blood and I just cruised through that easy as hell.
When I came back I found out that sometime when I was gone she had broken up
with her boyfriend. I am not sure why, but it figures he gets his ass beat for
her and she dumps him later for something. Typical Jew. In class, she eyes me
when I sat down and didn't say anything to me, I started razzing her and was
like, "how's you boyfriend doing?" and she's like, "I am not going out with him
anymore but I am sure he's doing fine," and I said, "broke up with him after he
gets his ass beaten for you, that some kind of Hebrew thing?" and she said, "Oh
shut up you asshole, I am so tired of hearing you talk about that," and I razzed
her a little longer. Anyways, later in the month we had a project we had to do
out of class, and it had to be with my desk partner she was mad, but she's a
crazy A student and she asked me, "Well do you want to do the assignment at my
house or yours?" and I said, "Well I am not allowed to have Jews at my house"
and me and AJ started laughing, I was like, "Why don't you just do it?" and she
said, "'cause you're not getting an A for my work," so we ended up going to her
house well it's a typical Hebe home, with the 8 candle stuff and I knocked on
the door and her mom answered, "Hi, are you Luke?" and I was like, "In the
flesh," she said, "Come on in Cindy is in her room," and I looked around and saw
all this Jew stuff and I sort of scoffed, anyway I went to her room and she's
like, "Alright lets get started," and I was just looking around, "I don't think
I'll be able to concentrate in this Yid hol,e" and she's like, "Well then I'll
tell Mr. Deen that you didn't do anything," so I had to sit there and figure out
the project with her.
I wasn't really doing anything but nodding when she said something. While I was
sitting there I was scoping her and thinking what it would be like to get a
piece of Jew ass, I was thinking it the whole time I mean is there really
anything wrong with using one for sex? I mean not dating just fucking? and I
thought about that the whole time.
The night after I went home I was looking at my ceiling and thinking the whole
night on how to fuck Cindy, I was going over some ways and though well maybe
I'll be like in the movies and act like I changed and then after I fuck her,
just tell the bitch about it and break her little kick heart. LOL. I talked it
over with Tom, AJ, and Rob, they all wondered why I wanted to fuck the Jew, but
they knew she was hot and stuff. I decided to act like I didn't want to be a
NNLR anymore and have like AJ and them act like I changed in front of her. Not
to go into much detail, but it was a good plan to tap that ass.
At school the next day I went over to her and was like, "How you doing?" She
seemed a little surprised, "I'm alright," and then AJ walked by and we sorta
gave each other this fake little mean look that we made sure she noticed. She
was like, "Are you and AJ mad about something?" and I was like, "I don't know
he's a dick," she goes, "I thought you guys were good friends?" and I'm like,
"We were but the NNLR are starting to piss me off," and she's like "Is that so?"
and I'm like, "Yeah I am thinking about getting out," and she's like, "That's
good, maybe then you'll stop being such a prick." I wanted to say something but
I restrained and continued the charade.
It lasted much longer than that to her, and I'm not going to go into depth but
in the next few weeks I made it look like I had gotten out of the NNLR's and to
her I wasn't hanging out with them anymore well we had to do another project and
I was like, "Let's do it at my house" and she's like, "I thought you weren't
allowed to have Jewish people there?" I sorta gave a sad face and was like "I'm
not like that anymore," which she thought was true. That night I had to
rearrange my room take down all my party and NNLR emblems and stuff and I made a
great effort to make it look like a typical room. When she came over she was
like "Wow your house is nice," which it is since both my parents are business
workaholics and I'm like "Thanks, it's alright." Well we got into the project
and after it was done we started watching TV on the couch. We got into a deep
convo about the NNLR and I had to say some bad things that it was hard to say
and eventually when she was leaving I talked her into a date with me for
Saturday, I was gonna kiss her but I didn't really feel like pushing it since I
was hoping to get in those little kike panties this weekend anyway.
As the week went on we talked in class and stuff until she probably thought I
was a very tolerant ex-bigot that was pushed into joining the NNLR because of
bad parenting and a need for acceptance. LOL. Not bad huh?
As Saturday came along we went on our date and went to a real expensive place
and ate then we went to a movie, and we held hands and walked around the mall, I
could tell their was no way I was going to get in her pants on the first date
for some reason and I was a little pissed, but I figured it will come
eventually, the date ended that night after making plans for another and we went
into a french kiss in front of her house. She went inside and I wiped off my
mouth, damn I hated kissing the Jew, I just wanted to fuck her. LOL.
We had two more dates before anything real sexual happened and that was when we
were in my car outside her house after going to another expensive restaurant
(damn Jews) and she gave me a decent blowjob in the car. I came all in her mouth
and she swallowed every drop like a good Jew, we made plans for another date the
next weekend and I had the feeling I was finally going to fuck my Jew.
I picked her up and we went to see a movie, then after we went to eat and talk
and junk like that you gotta go through to get laid, I talked her into coming to
my house and I knew I was going to fuck her, well we got into it on the couch
and she gave me another decent blow job and again swallowed like a good Jew.
Then I got her into the bed by like fake tackling her after she stood up we
started laughing and she's like "stop it" and I undid the buttons on her shirt
and we started kissing. So much for stopping it, I got her bra off and sucked on
her tits, then got her jeans off and was about to pull off her panties and she's
like, "Stop it Luke!" and I stopped and looked up all sad faced like, "Why
what's wrong?" and she said, "I never had sex before."
I was rock hard, by the end of the sentence I had the opportunity to pop a Jew
girls cherry I started acting all nice like "Well I don't care if you're a
virgin you'll like it I promise," and she sat up and I kissed her and started
talking about never doing it and eventually I got her to lay down through some
good talking I might add and I took off her panties and finally got a glimpse of
her bush which was pretty fine I might add, I started thinking about a condom,
but then I was like are you stupid? Don't wear one, I mean she's probably not
even thinking about that, and pulled off my underwear and prepared to put it in,
then she asked about a condom and I said don't worry I'm sterile, LOL. I don't
know why she believed me but she didn't press the issue.
She looked a little scared but I wasn't really going to hurt her anyway in that
fashion 'cause I just wanted to fuck the kike bitch. I don't have a monster cock
like it seems everyone else in these stories have but I am very proud of my 7
incher and I led it to her very very tight pussy. I mean I had fucked tight
girls before but never a virgin, and I put it into her and she started like
sorta startled moaning and when I reached the hymen her face was all like all
closed up so I just rammed it in and busted the hymen, she screamed pretty loud,
but then I start inching it in and she was moaning sort of, well I continued the
pace figuring I'd fuck her again later and just went in and out till I came in
her. After I was done I looked at her and she was like all sweaty even worse
than me, and I don't know how much she enjoyed it, but she put her arm on me, I
fucked her again like 40 minutes later and this time I felt her orgasm, she
called her mom and said she was staying at a friend's, and then she fell asleep.
I laid on the bed thinking about how to show her that not only had I just used
her Jew body, but I was still a very loyal NNLR, so while she was sleeping I put
my room (which is my entire basement) like it was before that night she came for
the project, and I had my swastika flag over the bed and the Fuhrer and my SS
posters and stuff back up, and I even put my swastika screen saver on, then I
laid down next to her and dozed off.
I woke up the next morning before her when it was light and decided on another
thing to do so I left a note on the lampshade next to her all it said was
"Thanks for the easy fuck last night, I did enjoy it, when you wake up please
leave my room I don't want your Jewish bitch ass here longer than that. Claiming
NNLR 4 Life" LOL.
I sat in the living room and a little later I saw her walking on the side of our
house where the basement is onto the sidewalk to walk home and she was like
crying hard I mean like her face was so red. LOL. I loved it and the fact that
she lives a 10 minute drive from me and she had to walk all red and stuff home.
When I went to school on Monday I found out that she had asked Mr. Deen for a
new seat and talked him into it and I got to sit my AJ which was cool as hell. I
looked at her but she just sat there and didn't look back. I heard later from
friends she had to go through therapy and all this stuff and her Dad like almost
came after me with a gun when she got home that day, and I wish he would have
I'd have dropped his ass with my
I'll get ya'll started!
I.... like big butts, and I cannot lie!
I bet the jews are behind this.
I read the part about 802.11 wireless, very interesting.
But the 3G wireless part was misleading. The section is entitled "Don't forget 3G" but it is all about SMS, which is more of a 2G wireless technology, heck even if it was supposed to be about GPRS that is a 2.5G wireless thing. 3G might not be dead (or even barely born yet really) but SMS is not the proof of this! Happily it is gaining momentum in the US though as more carries move to GSM.
While I realize there is much support for 802.11b in it's 2.4Ghz position, it seems likely that as devices continue to be developed with output in that range, it's going to be impossible to continue recieving clear signals, even in the small 100 foot range that most of the devices promise.
I also see no compelling reason to believe there is any commercial interest in keeping 802.11b around, as 802.11a devices provide faster throughput (supposedly), have fewer regulatory restrictions, and allow for higher prices / profit margins (due to the two reasons above).
Given the current political climate as it relates to emerging technologies and the 2.4Ghz band, I would expect to see 802.11b fade away to regulatory condemnation and watch 802.11a take over where 802.11b left off.
2. Pull splinters out of penis
if you really think about it.....hmmm this must be alien technology.
What would the effects be? Unprecedented professionalism in the software industry. We like to call it Software Engineering. When a Civil Engineer signs off on a bridge, he's stating it is flawless to the best of his ability. He's also accepting liability for the bridge. If software people want to be treated like professionals, they need to accept the same standards as professionals. If you release something that's broken, and it can be proven you know better, your ass is in the can.
(Celui que tient la peur de devinir nuage)
In the medium term, 802.11a will replace 802.11b/Wi-Fi. As well as lack of interference, the U-NII is simply larger, allowing a lot more networks to co-exist in the same airwaves.
>>Now what do you think? Which is more important to the economy and to social progress in general: digital broadband or ham radio? The truth is that ham radio trumps digital broadband, just because ham radio has been around longer and therefore is sanctified with a license to use the spectrum. (Yes, it's happened--a ham radio operator has actually shut down an 802.11 network.) >>
What do I think? Which is more imporatant? I'd definitely say that ham radio *should* trump digital broadband. Amateur radio is more than just a trivial hobby. Who provided communication for rescue workers in NYC after 9/11 when all the communication antennae on top of the WTC were destroyed? Amateur radio operators. In DC during the Pentagon operation at the same time? Amateur radio operators. Who provided overseas troops in numerous wars the ability to call home and talk to families? Amateur radio operators. The FCC recognizes and provides for the privileges of amateur radio operators particularly because of their value in providing emergency communications, but also because of their improvements and advances in radio communication and for advancing international goodwill.
The people quoted in this piece obviously believe that commercial purposes should trump all others. Money above all. The airwaves are a public commons and I firmly believe that providing space for ham radio operators to continue practing their hobby (which in turn is practice for providing emergency communications when such arise) is more important than providing inviolable space for 802.11 networking.
Amen! Now, if only I could find enough time to study for my license exam...
Ham radio operators are the hackers of the field of radio/wireless communications.
The objections of the 802.11 developers is a little childish. It's not like radiowave spectrum allocations are a secret. Nor do amateur radio operators have access to the entire spectrum or at the expense of everyone else. Broadcast TV has exclusive use of a slice of spectrum. Broadcast radio has an exclusive slice. The military has several nice chunks. On some bands ham radio operators have primary rights (they can bump non-ham operations) on others they have secondary. Who can use which bands also changes from time to time. Currently the military is trying to get a lot of spectrum for their own communication and satellites. This could bump 802.11 operations or ham operations or anyone else. The 802.11 should have known about the fluidity and change in wireless allocations when they started the project. If they didn't, it's their own fault for not doing their homework.
-EB
Neither would asprin or alchohol or sunlight.
We live in a world with silly regulations. They even apply to technology.
=brian
Exactly, though I would soften the hard line a bit. When you write an OS, it would probably be impossible to code totally bug free code, no matter how much testing you did. The problem here is to define a parameter where the bug crosses into the penalty phase. A minor bug that crashes your system shouldn't be cause for fines, but something like the Melissa virus probably would. Stupid errors were automatic actions like VB scripting are the default should be penalized. Not plugging known security gaps should be penalized. But no one deserves the title of engineer when they release a product with 60k known bugs! "Yes, this bridge works pretty well, even though it has 60,000 structural cracks."
Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
the only problem is the small number of people taking up ham radio. there's much more of a push from businesses to implement some sort of wireless solution. ham radio technology has not changed drastically in many many years. maybe it's due for a technological overhaul. anyone with $30 can go down to the local wal-mart and get a couple of FRS radios, but real ham radios are left to small kits from radio shack.
i think the whole wavelength segregation the FCC controls needs to be reworked. there no reason for ham radio operators to have precedence over anyone just because they were there first. the USA is based on consumer acceptance of a product. as soon as wireless really starts showing up at your grandma's house, you'll notice ham radio dying off much quicker.
maybe someone should write some code or build some hardware so 802.11 can contribute to ham radio, by acting as a repeater.
Why read the article when I can just make up a snap judgement?
Now, about a ham radio operator "actually" shutting down a network -- where and when? Hams are perhaps the most conscientious users of spectrum anywhere. They have clean signals and stay in their bandwidth -- bandwidth they are licensed to operate in. Consumer electronics, on the other hand, are the worst offenders. And 802.11b is unlicensed and must accept all interference caused to it by licensed users -- which includes microwave ovens. Read Part 15 and Part 18 of the FCC regulations.
ObDisclaimer: I am not (and have never been) a ham radio operator.
Unlimited growth == Cancer.
Helpful suggestion for Cheeze: Please learn how to use capital letters.
Disclaimer: I am not (and have never been) an amateur radio operator.
Unlimited growth == Cancer.
If you were my neighbor and you'd take my lan away I'd poison your dog, drive over your cat, report you for child-abuse (if applicable), call your boss, slash your tires, throw garbage on your front lawn, put a rattlesnake in your mailbox, throw paint on the hood of your car, tamper with your cable tv service, make your bad credit history public, in short come up with a zillion ways of making life as unhappy and dissatisfying as possible for you and your family.
Hmmm... So, does this mean that a ham radio operator can force people not to use microwave ovens, which also use the 2.4GHz band (and, last time I checked, weren't licensed either)? "Excuse me, ma'am, but I'm confiscating your microwave as an illegal transmitter. Your ham radio operator neighbors have been complaining."
that's why they call the frequency range it works under "unregulated spectrum." Now, they are trying to take away the freedom of it and sell it to corporate interests, same as CB (which stands for "Citizens Band"), but the Ham radio complainers are way off. The regulated Ham networks are on a much lower frequency. 802.11B networks do not interfere unless there is a broken transmitter.
bush sr.'s fcc started the auction bullshit, reed hundt (algore's college roomie) took it for one hell of a ride when he ran the fcc. the fcc is no longer a regulatory agency, it's a huge revenue generating body now. they'll change the rules in the middle of the game if they can make a buck. and if the courts try to slap them down, they thumb their noses. ask verizon about the million$ the court ordered the fcc to refund a year ago that they still haven't gotten back. anybody who thinks the fcc is gonna do anything in the public interest is smokin some bad crack acid.
um, when a civil engineer signs off on a bridge, he's stating an estimate of cost, materials, time, and impact that it will have. Stuff like how many cars per minute and tons of concrete. Now, a structural engineer has a bit more to do with how it is built, but really, it comes down to the construction laborers and what kind of job they do. And bridges have lots of flaws and fall down or need repairs all the time. Tacoma Narrows anyone?
That would seem to absolve internet explorer and outlook express, both of which are "free" (free as in candy from strangers) Internet Explorer is an integral part of the OS. Remember? =)
Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam
Interested in AI? MACR
Oops, your ignorance is showing. Almost ALL advances in the radio arts in the last 100 years have come from amateur radio operators. We've been doing packet radio since before computer networks existed. Hams are on the cutting edge of microwave communications setting distance records of hundreds of miles in the 300GHz band. We've done spread spectrum for decades and several stations are actively experimenting with ultra wide band. We launch some of the most sophisticated communications satellites in orbit. We operate meteor scatter across the Continent.
Most HF rigs (the under 50MHz rigs) cost between $1000 and $4000 and are made by Kenwood, Icom and Yaesu. Top names in radio equipment. They use DSPs and speech filters that are years ahead of anything you'll find in consumer products. 2 meter and 70 cm rigs run between $150 and $500, even at Radio Shack.
Also Hams are critical emergency communication operators. When bad weather happens hams are out there acting as storm spotters and feeding information back to the National Weather Service. Nothing beats trained eyeballs on the spot. We provide communications when 911 systems go down and in disasters we provide the critical link that save lives.
Realize that the FCC is chartered to maintain the airwaves in trust for the American people and ask your selves who serves the people better, hams or 802.11 in Starbucks?
Tacoma Narrows anyone?
Yes, use a bridge that fell down due to a previously unknown property (harmonic vibration) as an example of how construction workers affect the quality of a built bridge.
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
When 802.11 is mentioned, everyone seems to be assuming 802.11b, which is not the issue. Many people (at least here in Silicon Valley) are setting up long range 1or2Mbps links that are based on 802.11 (no 'b' or 'g', just 802.11). They transmit at much maximum power, using high gain _directional_ antennas to get more than 1000 meters.
l
I do still believe that an 802.11b network could cause interference to licensed spectrum users, but buildings have a way of attenuating signals =) (having worked closely with 3 different types of 2.4GHz packet radio technologies)
For those interested in a detailed explanation (biased?) of FCC part 15 rulings and how they apply to Ham radio operators, I suggest:
http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/part15.htm
It was enlightening for me!
ISTR that the ARRL website had an article about a 900 MHz netwrok being shut down in the Dallas area. Part 15 states that devices operating under these rules cannot interfere with licensed services.
A Shadeless room is a brighter room.
Just think of all the new territory being covered by Microsoft et. al... Of course they can't be held responsible for all the unknown types of bugs, right?
Karma: Poor (Mostly affected by lame karma-joke sigs)
I believe (though IANAL) that the law already makes a distinction between things "you buy" and things that are "given to you".
I'm pretty sure that except in the case of extreme negligence, or intentional harm, your right to recover damages for something you got "for free" is extremely limited.
-Mark
Hmm, no mention of Markey's recent bill, the "Wireless Technology Investment and Digital Dividends Act" aka hr4641. It would use some of the proceeds from spectrum auctions to go to a fund to support digital divide issues and clear our new unlicensed spectrum. There's a companion bill in the Senate that *doesn't* include the spectrum bit, so we'll have to fight for it.
a rkeyBill.html
Yall West Coast politico-wannabe's must be out of it if yall missed this, get in the game already. This stuff is going down in Washington and yall don't even know it. Couldn't Larry Lessig have clued you in? Seriously, here's some resources on this.
Quick info on the bill from the Center for Digital Democracy (lead group on the open access fight)
http://democraticmedia.org/news/washingtonwatch/m
The proposal is kinda a scaled down version of the a proposal called the Digital Promise, hatched by a guy who used to head PBS.
This was all discussed at a gab fest at the New America Foundation last week. Check out the agenda (pdf), the spectrum panel is on towards the end. You'll notice Reed Hundt, former FCC commissioner, and Yochai Benkler who's scholarship intersects w/ free software and other kinds of commons.
What you're describing is what's known as a Professional Engineer (PE) certification. *Very* few engineers go for their PE, since it takes a lot of time and a lot of money, though the resulting salary increase is very nice. A PE is equivalent to "MD" after a name, or being licensed to practice law. IE, not everyone involved in medicine is an MD, not everyone who works in law offices is a lawyer and has passed the Bar (think paralegals, etc), and not everyone involved in engineering is a PE.
It's also necessary to usually have at least 4 years of qualifying experience before you can even take the examination.
The National Society of Professional Engineers will have probably more information than you want to deal with on the subject.
Just remember, when a PE signs off on something, he's signing off on the work of everyone who's worked on the project. Given what I know of most of the other developers I've met, I don't think I'd be willing to be liable for their code...
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --H.L. Mencken