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Linux To Run Sherwin-Williams Cash Registers

oilfieldtrash writes "According to this news article on Yahoo!, Sherwin-Williams will upgrade their point-of-sales systems to Linux ... 'Sherwin-Williams Co., the No. 1 U.S. paint maker, plans to convert its computers and cash registers in more than 2,500 stores to the upstart operating system in the next year and has hired International Business Machines Corp.'s services division to do the job.'"

23 of 288 comments (clear)

  1. Not Exactly A Win For Linux by sputnik73 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is part of a continuing pattern that I've noticed. The major corporate entites which are embracing Linux aren't normally leaving some variant of Windows behind but instead are dropping Unix. The stranglehold Microsoft has on Office and the problems introduced by switching from Windows to Linux (in terms of a possible inability to access old files) is really hurting Linux in the War against Windows. But what these companies need to realize is that they can convert their old files into plain text files, using the very version of Office which is trying to tie them into an ugprade cycle of doom, using some simple batch scripts. This would be quite a chore, obviously - but in the long run companies would save. I don't know why this solution isn't being offered to companies. From what I understand, many companies are hesitant to drop Windows for this very reason: loss of access to old files. But again, Bill Gates doesn't really lose on this one. Linux gains some but not in the area where I'd like to see it.

    1. Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux by autechre · · Score: 4, Insightful


      You've been using Word98, a MacOS product, on your Windows 98 machine? That's pretty cool.

      (Microsoft released office 95, 97, and 2000 for Windows. I assume you're using 97.)

      The interesting bit is that if you go back far enough, Open/Star Office starts to get better at old Microsoft formats that MS themselves. Word 95 did a _terrible_ job of importing MS Works files...hey! There's that whole argument about "losing old documents." Sing it with me now: "Throw it out the window!"

      Also, keep in mind that Office 2000 was the first one to even attempt a backwards-compatible file format. Try to open a Word 97 document in Word 95 and see what you get. So people were forced to upgrade. Maybe 97 added some nice features for some people, but if I'm only writing plain text with some italics, why can't 95 read it anymore?

      Personally, I write stuff in Abiword and OpenOffice, and people have no trouble reading it in Word (and vice-versa). So yes, while I prefer to do things in vi, I'm by no means restricted to it.

      --
      WMBC freeform/independent online radio.
    2. Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux by iabervon · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think it's great that companies are switching from proprietary UNIX to Linux, because it's an application where they have genreal familiarity with the interface and so forth. Once Linux is a proven technology in their company, they can consider Linux as a replacement for Windows. The places where they are using Windows are places it is not feasible to switch to commercial UNIX. This will give people the opportunity to run the same OS everywhere, since it is not too expensive for the desktop and stable and secure enough for the servers. Once IT is using Linux for the critical systems, they won't want to support Windows as well. Microsoft doesn't lose anything on this deal, but their competition is being replaced with a much tougher competitor.

      Furthermore, POS terminals are a market that MS would like to own: the user interface matters and commercial UNIX is impractical (unless the terminals are just thin clients of a single server, which limits the UI possibilities). The fact that companies are chosing Linux as the OS with an interface that's fast, easy to use, and powerful, on cheap hardware, has got to hurt.

    3. Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux by cybermage · · Score: 5, Insightful
      But what these companies need to realize is that they can convert their old files into plain text files, using the very version of Office which is trying to tie them into an ugprade cycle of doom, using some simple batch scripts. ... I don't know why this solution isn't being offered to companies.

      I've got karma to burn, so here goes...

      Converting old files to plain text is an incredibly bad idea. Even if your only talking about .doc files, you need to understand that there is meaning in format. If you cannot take the formatting with you, you're not preserving the meaning. Simple example:

      Life of Brian is excellent.
      Life of Brian is excellent.

      Now, beyond the issue of the simplest kind of old files, consider things like spreadsheets, PowerPoint presentations, Accounting data, etc. Converting these files to plain text will render them useless.

      If you want businesses to move to Linux, look back at how we got here. There was a time when nothing was done on computers. Why start? Everyone could use a pencil. All typewriters worked more-or-less the same way. Businesses didn't start using computers because they were cool. They didn't start using them because they were cheaper. They started because computers could do things faster. Computers represented solutions to problems. What your proposing is to make a problem out of a solution. You won't get businesses to agree to problems in order to save money.

      If you want to see a mass migration to Linux, here's what you need:
      • standard file formats - Linux tools need to open/edit/save Microsoft formats. It is still my hope that Microsoft is forced to cough up their document formats to a standards body as a result of the anti-trust suits.
      • cloned interfaces - Linux tools need to perform tasks in an identical fashion to their Microsoft counterparts. Corporations will be very reluctant to retrain their entire workforce in exchange for a free OS. The applications need to work the same.
      • inter-operable OS - provide emulators to run legacy applications. There's a reason why knowledge of Cobol was needed before Y2K: Some old, proprietary applications cost way more to replace than 1000 years of OS upgrades. For many companies, their data is trapped inside computers they don't even understand. Once common applications have turned into black boxes. Make it so they can copy the application and it's inseperable data.
      • education - Linux needs to be accessible to educators to share with students. Schools, libraries, and colleges all receive generous donations of Wintel computers. Children are taught from an early age that Windows == Computer. They learn their tools under Microsoft's guidance. There is, however, a back door. Community Colleges are chartered to teach what the community asks for. Businesses who've embraced Linux and OSS need to ask their local community college to get their future employees ready. Invite educators to tour your business and sit with your people.
    4. Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux by Melantha_Bacchae · · Score: 4, Informative

      Methuseus wrote:

      > Get an old (free) version of Staroffice and use it to convert the files.

      To what if not text?

      > but you have to at least notice that your argument is stupid and
      > irrational.

      DavidJA wasn't arguing, but was asking perfectly valid questions:

      "The question is WHY should I "upgrade" to linux????"

      and

      "Why would I want to change to an OS where I have to use plain old text for my word processing?"

      Instead of getting insulting, why didn't you just simply answer the questions? I'm sure there is more value to Linux than a vague promise that converting all of one's files to some unknown format will somehow "in the end ... save time and money".

      I'm also sure that there are a wide variety of file formats for documents to choose from in Linux, and a few word processors that can read MS Word files with a varying degree of success. I don't know about support in Linux for the more advanced features of Word used by businesses: such as mail merge, Word document templates, forms, and VBA scripting. Of course my knowledge of current Linux features is limited to my Zaurus; OS X is my forte.

      These are questions that Windows users have that are going to have to be answered if Linux is going to make it on the corporate desktop. Answering honest questions with insults and ridicule is not going to help Linux get there.

      For those who want some actual facts on the subject, here's some stuff I found on Google that might help:

      http://www.linuxlinks.com/local/business/wordpro ce ssing.shtml
      http://www.canadacomputes.com/v3/stor y/1,1017,5413 , 0.html?tag=134&sb=281
      http://wwws.sun.com/softwar e/star/staroffice/6.0/

      What happens when you embrace and extend Godzilla? Nuclear heartburn!
      See "Godzilla 2000" (released in Japan as "Godzilla 2000 Millenium") for details.

    5. Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux by tftp · · Score: 3, Informative
      dependence on tools like Word will keep businesses enslaved by Microsoft. For businesses to consider moving to Linux, they need to be able to take documents with them.

      It might be not possible, in near future. Here is a real life example, less than a week old. I insisted on using StarOffice 5.2 to prepare a user's manual. This is not too fancy document with some simple illustrations, some text and few indexes, total about 20 pages. Result? Total failure. Here is why.

      SO 5.2 actually works, in 99% of cases. But it is not good enough. I thought that the user will scream and whine forever about different buttons and different menus. Well, it stopped after a while, and he got used to the new software. This appears to be only a small problem.

      The real killer problem is reliability. MS Word had more than 10 years of debugging, it is fairly stable now. SO 5.2 is not. We discovered so many obscure little bugs that by now the decision to migrate StarOffice documents to MS Word is pretty much a done deal. Among those bugs:

      • Broken spell checker (on Windows)
      • Incorrect kerning on some zooms
      • Too hungry deletion of highlighted text
      • Hangup/Crash if another window gets focused
      • Broken "to right margin" checkbox in some cases in index styles
      • Very weird flow control
      • Anchoring frames to paragraphs does not reflow
      • Two indexes weld to each other, Backspace causes lockup and crash
      • ... many more, I don't even remember.

      The point here is that businesses need reliable, robust, bulletproof wordprocessor. A secretary or a CEO don't want to see obscure dialogs. Can SO and OO get there? Sure. But it will take time, lots of it. MS used its time very wisely, and got a very strong foothold. And anyone who says "Businesses just need bold and italics" are mistaken. Businesses need all features - because technical documents are often very complex and have a maze of page styles. Your suggestion that small formatting loss is OK is not acceptable. Well, you can sell that to me, and I can sell that to you - but neither of us will convince our coworkers that they should come to work on weekends and fix conversion bugs.

      So you said dependence on tools like Word will keep businesses enslaved by Microsoft. True, but most businesses don't understand that, and they don't care either. They won't migrate to anything just because it is marginally cheaper.

      IMO, the way of liberating our documents is in gradual migration from Office formats to open formats and open applications. Look how Ogg Vorbis slowly but surely enters the MP3 world. Still 99% of all songs are in MP3, but more and more appear in .ogg format. When new format achieves some critical mass - and when applications are stable and good enough not just for geeks but for normal people - then they will be embraced and accepted.

      WRT your idea about W3C standards; they won't be of any use without applications, and as I said, applications are very difficult to develop. Just look at Mozilla. Just look at codebase of OO. These are BIG apps. Sure, after 4 years of planet-wide debugging now Mozilla works. We need to have a wordprocessor of exceptional quality, or else it won't be accepted. Formats are secondary, and as people suggested, businesses always can have one or two copies of old Word to open old documents; PDF is for the rest of them.

      Well, this comment is not very well structured, but it is good enough for posting at 3:25am ;-)

  2. However as part of the agreement with IBM.... by b0r0din · · Score: 5, Funny

    Sherwin-Williams can only sell the color Blue.

  3. What POS software will they run? by laserjet · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I currently admin a few stores that run a POS (Piece of Sh*t) POS (Point of Sales) program called Microbiz. It runs on Win9x, and it is an unstable piece of junk.

    We need to migrate to a new software due to the fact that support will be stopping on our current software within the year. I know there is LinuxPOS, but has anyone tried it? We need a full featured POS app for a small/medium size business.

    Things like this give me much hope, as I have always thought that Linux is the ideal point of sales software: it is stable, can be no frills, has good user access control, and the network and remote admin can be made easy.

    Linux, while it may not be the most used for gaming and multimedia, may have a niche in the POS market. In my view, it would be the perfect OS for the retail environenment.

    --
    Moon Macrosystems. Sun's biggest competitor.
    1. Re:What POS software will they run? by the_rev_matt · · Score: 3, Informative

      I've heard that LinuxPOS is pretty decent, but never used it myself. It would not be wildly complex to write a web based POS system in Zope/PHP/Perl against PostGRE in a weekend. Hell, if you already have an online store, you already have a POS system. You just need to add the capability for a clerk to do returns and maybe some enhanced searching for in store and you're done. There are already Zope/PHP/Perl apps that do this. Check freshmeat.net and go nuts.

      --
      this is getting old and so are you

      blog

    2. Re:What POS software will they run? by bovinewasteproduct · · Score: 4, Informative

      If you think writing a POS is sytem that simple go for it! I've been involved with POS since 1990 (My dad co-owned one of two POS scanning companies in Houston from 1987 to 1995, I was his lead PC tech from 1990 to 1993) and I can tell you it ain't that easy. Sure, if all you want is a basic cash register it's not too hard, but when you get into scanning it gets just a little bit harder.:)

      And a web based system will NOT cut it either. You'll need an X app to compeate with the windows versions out there. Plus you'll have to write drivers for the printers, scanners (those that don't have a keyboard wedge available), scales, cash drawers, customer keyboards and the other things people hook up to a POS system.

      Been there, done that, DID NOT WANT THE T-SHIRT!

      BWP

      P.S. This is just retail, when you get into hospitality systems (ie selling food), it gets even worse!

  4. Where Linux can really shine... by fmaxwell · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Embedded GUI systems is an area where Linux can shine. The lack of a consistent UI between general-purpose Linux software packages and the sometimes-problematic configuration and administration is simply not an issue in a dedicated machine like a point-of-sale terminal. I expect Microsoft to lose a lot of sales in that arena.

    1. Re:Where Linux can really shine... by sconeu · · Score: 3, Funny

      Why on earth would anyone want office or 'net access on a POS system?

      Customer: Excuse me, I've been waiting for 15 minutes!
      Sales Clerk: Hang on... I've got to frag this dude!

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
  5. That's how it starts. Not on the desktop. by crovira · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I hadn't even thought of cash registers and other point-of-sale systems but it figures. They need utter reliability and 100% up-time.

    There is no way anybody is going to trust the collection or the handling of cash or credit card transactions to machines that are as virus prone and crashable as anything M$ puts out.

    The PATH system of trains between New York and New Jersey uses some M$ box to display information to riders on iys trains and M$ is prominently displayed in all its glory when the big monitors hanging over the platforms get "Blue Screens of Death." Tens of thousands of people ride the system every day. That's GREAT advertising for M$. -NOT!

    I wish somebody would replace these with some Linux servers so we riders could get systems we can use and trust.

    --
    MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
  6. Invisible Linux. by vkg · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Really, at the end of the day, nobody gives a shit what OS the POS is running: as long as it's doing it's job, who cares?

    Very much like the server market - as long as it works, nobody gives a damn what OS is running.

    I'd say this is an ideal niche, and there's no reason to use anything *else* on a POS, is there?

  7. Back-Handed Compliment by donnacha · · Score: 3, Interesting


    From the article:

    But, he said, Linux isn't being asked to do too much high-stress computing here. "It's just a nice, low-cost platform for doing kind of everyday computing."

    Sooo... if they actually needed it to do anything other than the computational equivalent of a nice picnic, they would gone for a "serious" OS?

    Like Windows?

    1. Re:Back-Handed Compliment by Bostik · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I noticed the same quote, but consider the wording used...

      [...] nice, low-cost platform for doing kind of everyday computing. So in effect they are saying that they consider Linux ready to be used where-ever you need a good, stable and reliable platform to run their applications. Now, isn't this kind of everyday computing just the thing that most users do at home?

      I think that quote is indeed very nicely put. It may even prove valuable.

      --
      There is no such thing as good luck. There is only misfortune and its occasional absence.
  8. More details by acordes · · Score: 4, Funny

    In addition, the International Business Machines equipment won't use Advanced Micro Designs processors, but will be compatible with Transmission Control Protocol/Internet Protocol. No comment was made by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration or Minnesota Mining and Manufacturing.

    1. Re:More details by Guy+Harris · · Score: 3, Funny
      In addition, the International Business Machines equipment won't use Advanced Micro Designs processors

      Well, yeah, I wouldn't expect Sherman-Williams to be too happy about Duron in their stores.

  9. Lowes Uses Linux by RageMachine · · Score: 3, Informative

    The hardware store Lowes has used Linux for sometime now, on the machine they use to take job applications. The machine is an IBM running an X system with some modified version of Netscape. The GUI is a Motif type environment (you can tell just by the buttons). I took my ex-gf down there one day so she could apply, and I watched as she went through the screen. The cursor is just an X, indicating its just a bare X system... Basicly.

    --

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    Is this a sig?
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  10. RadioShack by NETHED · · Score: 3, Informative

    I worked at RadioShack for a brief stint and this is what I saw at the POS system.

    a Tandy machine (no idea on speed) running Win95. It crashed REGULARLY. It was fun watching Scandisk do its thing while a customer is waiting.

    The interface is a custom app that pulls its inventory data off of the 'server' sitting in the back room. To do this, each POS was networked to the 'server' in the back room. For some reason, each POS also had Serv-U FTP server running on boot. There was no cashdrawer interface as the cashdrawer was a SINGLE wooden drawer behind the desk with a 'fingercode' access inhibitor. All you needed to do was pull with your middle finger pulling the most.

    IF anyone else worked at RS, tell us about it, i'm curious about the current RS situation.

    --
    --sig fault--
  11. Linux migration in the financial industry... by rakeswell · · Score: 3, Informative

    ...is perhaps more interesting and is becoming more widespread.

    Reuters recently announced that it's market news aggregation system (RMDS) is being ported to run on Linux servers. The system currently is running on Solaris and was ported to Windows (but the Windows port is no longer support/persued)

    This is just the latest example of the financial industry turning to Linux. Morgan Stanely, Credit Suisse, E-Trade, the NYSE have all started to move to Linux.

    It's true that the migrations are generally coming out of the hide of Solaris and AIX. IBM is coming to terms with Linux, and recent signs look hopeful that Sun will follow suite as well.

    I suspect that the economy has had a hand to play in the receptiveness of the big players in the financial industry to start looking to Linux-based solutions: everyone is looking to save money right now, and I think it's no accident that the financial industry seems to be taking the lead in terms of being early adopters of Linux in the enterprise.

    I can only hope that with the trend towards moving systems over to Linux, these business will be exposed to open source ideals, which -- who knows -- might one day lead to MSFTs fall from dominance.

    Isn't it plausible that while Linux may be eating Unix's lunch, this gives it a better chance to spread open source/free software ideals in a new environment, which -- in the long run -- might be what takes the *big* chunk out of MSFT's hide...

    --
    All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself. - Johann Sebastian Bach
  12. This is how it starts by ctid · · Score: 3, Insightful
    I've often felt that Linux is ideal for jobs where only one application is run. Then you don't need to worry about training people to use Linux, because all they see is the application. If it's simple enough (eg barcode scanning prices), the user doesn't know what OS is running anyway. I know it's stating the obvious, but this is true of servers of all kinds too; they do one thing (OK each service running on the server does one thing) and the user has no idea how that is happening.


    What will be interesting is how the support structure pans out. Everyone knows that you need staff to support your servers. So if they're running Linux, you need someone who is competent in that. But since you've got to have this person anyway, surely they could do some support of the desktop machines. For example, those which are only used for word processing. So long as the user isn't going to be installing new software, or switching between multiple applications, who cares what OS your WP program runs on?


    The odd thing about this is that people say that Linux is OK for sophisticated users and not for the newbies. I'm inclined to think that it's the other way around. So long as your user has to use the same application every day, and doesn't get the opportunity to change things, Linux has to be better (file formats permitting of course), because it's cheaper. So it's the unsophisticated users who can be switched to Linux first (as proved by the POS successes; you don't get any more unsophisticated than swiping past a barcode reader), because they see less of the OS than the sophisticated users.

    --
    Reality is defined by the maddest person in the room
  13. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Comment removed based on user account deletion