Linux To Run Sherwin-Williams Cash Registers

oilfieldtrash writes "According to this news article on Yahoo!, Sherwin-Williams will upgrade their point-of-sales systems to Linux ... 'Sherwin-Williams Co., the No. 1 U.S. paint maker, plans to convert its computers and cash registers in more than 2,500 stores to the upstart operating system in the next year and has hired International Business Machines Corp.'s services division to do the job.'"

Comments

Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[sputnik73]

This is part of a continuing pattern that I've noticed. The major corporate entites which are embracing Linux aren't normally leaving some variant of Windows behind but instead are dropping Unix. The stranglehold Microsoft has on Office and the problems introduced by switching from Windows to Linux (in terms of a possible inability to access old files) is really hurting Linux in the War against Windows. But what these companies need to realize is that they can convert their old files into plain text files, using the very version of Office which is trying to tie them into an ugprade cycle of doom, using some simple batch scripts. This would be quite a chore, obviously - but in the long run companies would save. I don't know why this solution isn't being offered to companies. From what I understand, many companies are hesitant to drop Windows for this very reason: loss of access to old files. But again, Bill Gates doesn't really lose on this one. Linux gains some but not in the area where I'd like to see it.

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[the_rev_matt]

I disagree with this. Ubiquity is key. People expect shit to just work in the store. The people in the store (including mgmt people) are going to be dealing with Linux every day and will depend on it to stay in business. It performs well, they have a positive impression of Linux. Managers will get tired of switching between Windows in the office and Linux on the sales floor, and some of them will try linux on their office computer.

Customers see how reliable the POS is (esp at christmas) and want to know why the store never seems to have problems with their computers (trust me, it happens. I had several conversations during Xmas of 98 about the benefits of UNIX (SCO in that case, but I generalized to all unixes) vs Win98 with businessmen-type customers who asked). People will rationalize: If Sherwin-Williams/big car company/home electronics store/blah blah blah trusts their business to linux, maybe I should look into it too...

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[DavidJA]

. But what these companies need to realize is that they can convert their old files into plain text files,

Yes, because I want my .doc files which I have spent a considerable amount of time applying formatting styles to;(tables, bullet lists, bold and italic where required, headers/footers, etc, etc) converted to plain text!

If I wanted my documents to be plain text than I would have used notepad!

The question is WHY should I "upgrade" to linux????

I'm using Win98, Word98 on my PII 400 and have been doing so for the past 4 years,

Why would I want to change to an OS where I have to use plain old text for my word processing?

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[primus_sucks]

WTF, last time I checked OpenOffice reads in MS Office files quite well. No need to resave all your files into text! If you're worried about loss of access to old files just keep one copy of MS Office around so you can resave into a format OpenOffice can read properly.

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[Methuseus]

you *don't* need to use POT on Linux. Get an old (free) version of Staroffice and use it to convert the files. Granted you may need to make small adjustments, but in the end, the parent poster is right, in the end it will save time and money. If you don't want to ever move from your 98 machine with Word 98, so be it, but you have to at least notice that your argument is stupid and irrational.

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[autechre]

You've been using Word98, a MacOS product, on your Windows 98 machine? That's pretty cool.

(Microsoft released office 95, 97, and 2000 for Windows. I assume you're using 97.)

The interesting bit is that if you go back far enough, Open/Star Office starts to get better at old Microsoft formats that MS themselves. Word 95 did a _terrible_ job of importing MS Works files...hey! There's that whole argument about "losing old documents." Sing it with me now: "Throw it out the window!"

Also, keep in mind that Office 2000 was the first one to even attempt a backwards-compatible file format. Try to open a Word 97 document in Word 95 and see what you get. So people were forced to upgrade. Maybe 97 added some nice features for some people, but if I'm only writing plain text with some italics, why can't 95 read it anymore?

Personally, I write stuff in Abiword and OpenOffice, and people have no trouble reading it in Word (and vice-versa). So yes, while I prefer to do things in vi, I'm by no means restricted to it.

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[tomstdenis]

Your entire post is so full of shit I can't believe it myself.

I have personally worked for a few jo-jobs and I can tell you straight-up that nobody include the mgmt care what OS they use as long as it works. For instance, I worked for PharmaPlus [in Canada] and their servers run Unix [or linux, it was some *nix to be sure], the front cashes were Compaq's running win98 and the postal cashes were some other brand running NT4.

And I never had any customers come to me and say "I see you are running 98, well thats completely unreliable".

Believe it or not but 99% of the customers don't have a first clue about computers or the diff between say Win98 and Win2k other than the name.

The fact that they use Linux is neat but as another poster pointed out not entirely a big win since the goal is to crush MSFT isn't it?

Tom

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

We run a web interface to a com object of MS Word/Excel, and people can upload files in MS format and download in a more-open format (eg, RTF/CSV).

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[iabervon]

I think it's great that companies are switching from proprietary UNIX to Linux, because it's an application where they have genreal familiarity with the interface and so forth. Once Linux is a proven technology in their company, they can consider Linux as a replacement for Windows. The places where they are using Windows are places it is not feasible to switch to commercial UNIX. This will give people the opportunity to run the same OS everywhere, since it is not too expensive for the desktop and stable and secure enough for the servers. Once IT is using Linux for the critical systems, they won't want to support Windows as well. Microsoft doesn't lose anything on this deal, but their competition is being replaced with a much tougher competitor.

Furthermore, POS terminals are a market that MS would like to own: the user interface matters and commercial UNIX is impractical (unless the terminals are just thin clients of a single server, which limits the UI possibilities). The fact that companies are chosing Linux as the OS with an interface that's fast, easy to use, and powerful, on cheap hardware, has got to hurt.

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[PotPieMan]

Managers will get tired of switching between Windows in the office and Linux on the sales floor, and some of them will try linux on their office computer.

That's debatable. If IBM does its job in making the POS systems usable, cashiers and managers aren't going to care what their cash registers are running. It all goes along with the "people expect shit to just work in the store" idea. Windows is good enough for the office and home, especially on the level at which these people compute. I don't see many making the connection between a POS system and their workstations (hint: one runs on hardware that usually looks little like a standard computer, and performs a limited set of functions).

In your perfect world, employees and customers would see the reliability of the Linux POS systems, and wonder how they can get that reliability at home or in the office (as you allude to). However, I look at this decision more as the orignial poster does - it's a win for the acceptance of Linux into the business services field. I don't think it will amount to much more than other companies considering Linux for their mission-critical services (it's definitely a win for IBM in that respect).

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[oni]

We run a web interface to a com object of MS Word/Excel

You got a license for that buddy?

Seriously, if the documentation for your setup is available I'd like to take a look at it.

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[teslatug]

really hurting Linux

Huh? Linux is neither a living organism nor a corporation, it cannot be hurt. Consumers on the other hand can be hurt by Microsoft's monopoly. Any conversion to Linux systems brings in more recognition. Any such conversion is a win for consumers because Linux is also a threat to Microsoft's monopoly.

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[sconeu]

had several conversations during Xmas of 98 about the benefits of UNIX (SCO in that case, but I generalized to all unixes) vs Win98 with businessmen-type customers who asked).

Before the Caldera buyout, SCO was a MAJOR presence at POS locations.

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[IAmATuringMachine!]

Customers see how reliable the POS is

I thought Windows was the P.O.S.

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[Hercynium]

Geez, I was going to mod up some people who deserve it, but I *had* to reply to your entry.

I'm a music junkie, I admit... I spend waaaay too much money at a few local music stores and when I finally get to the counter I DO notice when their POS systems are taking forever! For example, a small local chain is using a Win2K-based system running over Terminal Services to run their POS cash register systems... it royally sucks. Now, I'm not expressly criticising Win2K, but one thing they often say when it's getting sluggish... "someone needs to reboot the server..."

Other stores run without a hitch... and I often find myself feeling that I'd rather buy stuff at those places since I don't have to wait 5+ min for the cashier to complete my purchase!

Now, I'm not saying Linux will solve their problems... but a better POS system would. What's depressing is that I've developed several rigorous POS systems, one of which is now 6.5 years old and still running in a restaurant chain with 88 locations... on OS/2!

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[Copperhead]

Oh... POS is short for "Point of Sale"... I thought you meant... oh, nevermind.

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[MrCreosote]

"But again, Bill Gates doesn't really lose on this one."

Oh, yes he does. First, there is the revenue lost because the potential new customer did not buy the Windows solution (which they would have otherwise if it were not for Linux). More importantly, there is one less slave to the treadmill that is the upgrade cycle of Microsoft products, and the revenue stream attached to that.

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[cybermage]

But what these companies need to realize is that they can convert their old files into plain text files, using the very version of Office which is trying to tie them into an ugprade cycle of doom, using some simple batch scripts. ... I don't know why this solution isn't being offered to companies.

I've got karma to burn, so here goes...

Converting old files to plain text is an incredibly bad idea. Even if your only talking about .doc files, you need to understand that there is meaning in format. If you cannot take the formatting with you, you're not preserving the meaning. Simple example:

Life of Brian is excellent.
Life of Brian is excellent.

Now, beyond the issue of the simplest kind of old files, consider things like spreadsheets, PowerPoint presentations, Accounting data, etc. Converting these files to plain text will render them useless.

If you want businesses to move to Linux, look back at how we got here. There was a time when nothing was done on computers. Why start? Everyone could use a pencil. All typewriters worked more-or-less the same way. Businesses didn't start using computers because they were cool. They didn't start using them because they were cheaper. They started because computers could do things faster. Computers represented solutions to problems. What your proposing is to make a problem out of a solution. You won't get businesses to agree to problems in order to save money.

If you want to see a mass migration to Linux, here's what you need:

• standard file formats - Linux tools need to open/edit/save Microsoft formats. It is still my hope that Microsoft is forced to cough up their document formats to a standards body as a result of the anti-trust suits.
  
• cloned interfaces - Linux tools need to perform tasks in an identical fashion to their Microsoft counterparts. Corporations will be very reluctant to retrain their entire workforce in exchange for a free OS. The applications need to work the same.
  
• inter-operable OS - provide emulators to run legacy applications. There's a reason why knowledge of Cobol was needed before Y2K: Some old, proprietary applications cost way more to replace than 1000 years of OS upgrades. For many companies, their data is trapped inside computers they don't even understand. Once common applications have turned into black boxes. Make it so they can copy the application and it's inseperable data.
  
• education - Linux needs to be accessible to educators to share with students. Schools, libraries, and colleges all receive generous donations of Wintel computers. Children are taught from an early age that Windows == Computer. They learn their tools under Microsoft's guidance. There is, however, a back door. Community Colleges are chartered to teach what the community asks for. Businesses who've embraced Linux and OSS need to ask their local community college to get their future employees ready. Invite educators to tour your business and sit with your people.
  

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[ceejayoz]

But what these companies need to realize is that they can convert their old files into plain text files.

Losing all formatting, tables, etc. in the process...

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[Melantha_Bacchae]

Methuseus wrote:

> Get an old (free) version of Staroffice and use it to convert the files.

To what if not text?

> but you have to at least notice that your argument is stupid and
> irrational.

DavidJA wasn't arguing, but was asking perfectly valid questions:

"The question is WHY should I "upgrade" to linux????"

and

"Why would I want to change to an OS where I have to use plain old text for my word processing?"

Instead of getting insulting, why didn't you just simply answer the questions? I'm sure there is more value to Linux than a vague promise that converting all of one's files to some unknown format will somehow "in the end ... save time and money".

I'm also sure that there are a wide variety of file formats for documents to choose from in Linux, and a few word processors that can read MS Word files with a varying degree of success. I don't know about support in Linux for the more advanced features of Word used by businesses: such as mail merge, Word document templates, forms, and VBA scripting. Of course my knowledge of current Linux features is limited to my Zaurus; OS X is my forte.

These are questions that Windows users have that are going to have to be answered if Linux is going to make it on the corporate desktop. Answering honest questions with insults and ridicule is not going to help Linux get there.

For those who want some actual facts on the subject, here's some stuff I found on Google that might help:

http://www.linuxlinks.com/local/business/wordpro ce ssing.shtml
http://www.canadacomputes.com/v3/stor y/1,1017,5413 , 0.html?tag=134&sb=281
http://wwws.sun.com/softwar e/star/staroffice/6.0/

What happens when you embrace and extend Godzilla? Nuclear heartburn!
See "Godzilla 2000" (released in Japan as "Godzilla 2000 Millenium") for details.

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[tftp]

It is still my hope that Microsoft is forced to cough up their document formats to a standards body as a result of the anti-trust suits.

I believe, MS does not even have these formats documented. Probably there is some preliminary documentation that is completely obsolete, and nothing more. The real stuff is in the code. They only had to write it once, after all.

Documenting file formats is very difficult because even simpler format, like RTF, is a language on its own, with a syntax, rules, parsers etc. A binary format of Word 97 - which can contain billions of objects in other formats - is a nightmare to implement, and an impossibility to document, especially when MS has no particular reason to do that.

The worst part is not in binary encoded tags, and not in how they are attached to paragraphs of text. The most difficult part in how they affect the document! This, however, is probably beyond the responsibility of the import filter. If a lot if features depend on other modules "as they ended up being designed", then even the complete spec on the file format will be useless. For example, if the tag says "Left indent 0.1" and the rendering module snaps it to 0.25" grid, you have to know about this quirk to recreate the document in a different wordprocessor. Keep in mind that if you don't put every character exactly where Word put it, the paragraph (and the document) may flow (and the layout will be ruined). The fact that metrics of MS fonts may be not available on other systems does not help either...

If most of the documentation is in the code (comments and the code itself) then they can't release it without releasing the sources of the import filter, editor, WYSIWYG renderer... and all the rest of MS Word. IMO, chasing Word is a losing game. A new generation of wordprocessors must be created (OpenOffice is a good one, AbiWord is a decent thing too), and these wordprocessors would be open enough to interoperate well.

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[cybermage]

A binary format of Word 97 - which can contain billions of objects in other formats - is a nightmare to implement, and an impossibility to document, especially when MS has no particular reason to do that.

I can see your point that Microsoft may not even know their own file format. However, that does not change the fact that dependence on tools like Word will keep businesses enslaved by Microsoft. For businesses to consider moving to Linux, they need to be able to take documents with them.

I agree that even if the document format were a wide open standard, the exact layout will not be the same for a variety of reasons (bugs, fonts, etc.) However, I believe people will be happy as long as they can open/edit/save/print the file.

Finally, I am not suggesting that we chase Word. I'm suggesting that they be forced to stop running. The file formats for tools like Word need to be standardized and managed by an independent body like the W3C. You should be able to use any word processor that is standards compliant to create/edit/save these files and hand them to any other word processor that is compliant to do the same.

I'm all in favor of creating new tools; but if they can't open old docs, you're wasting your time.

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[Destoo]

It's all down the the "why should I use linux on my cash registers? Any example of where it is working well? Any big guns using it right now?".

Most of you probably don't remember the EDI rollout.. When transactions and inventories were being standardized electronically. To implement their solutions, consultants (read: sellers) needed to provide living examples of how this technology can help them.

Same thing for the "upgrade" to Linux. Business want good solid examples of "leaders" not in the high-tech industry. Just like that "Microsoft Battles Free Software at Pentagon" story (which I'm going to read next! promise!) would be a good blow against MS for someone who wants to sell a Linux solution.

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[tomstdenis]

I'm a music junkie, I admit... I spend waaaay too much money at a few local music stores and when I finally get to the counter I DO notice when their POS systems are taking forever! For example, a small local chain is using a Win2K-based system running over Terminal Services to run their POS cash register systems... it royally sucks. Now, I'm not expressly criticising Win2K, but one thing they often say when it's getting sluggish... "someone needs to reboot the server..."

Yes but if you are this objective in everyting you'll never be a good scientist in any field.

I mean there is no reason why you can't have a fast POS system even on a Mac with OSX!

Maybe the losers who wrote the code for the thing are just incompetent. As to "need to restart the computer". I find that Win2k can stay up for about 4 days [with a fair bit of MM usage] before it gets a bit unstable. I dunno why it crashes but its more likely to crash after a week up then not.

Admitedly a week uptime is not alot but often there are new virus updates within the week so I have to reboot anyways. This of course doesn't affect most POS'es because they normally restart each night [PharmaPlus *nix servers would reboot after the mgmt logged out at night]. The NT4 machines [postal outlet terminals] would reboot themselves too at midnight to get in sync with Canada Post terminals :-)

I currently work for AMC theaters [stop laughing!] and they changed their POS over to some newer system [touch screens running Win98]. I find that they have to "restart the server" every 20 minutes solely because the code that the contractors wrote is shitty! I wish that the dudes writting the software for these terminals actually spent 5 minutes being a cashier. Getting to know your user is one of the more difficult aspects of good project design.

Tom

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[tftp]

dependence on tools like Word will keep businesses enslaved by Microsoft. For businesses to consider moving to Linux, they need to be able to take documents with them.

It might be not possible, in near future. Here is a real life example, less than a week old. I insisted on using StarOffice 5.2 to prepare a user's manual. This is not too fancy document with some simple illustrations, some text and few indexes, total about 20 pages. Result? Total failure. Here is why.

SO 5.2 actually works, in 99% of cases. But it is not good enough. I thought that the user will scream and whine forever about different buttons and different menus. Well, it stopped after a while, and he got used to the new software. This appears to be only a small problem.

The real killer problem is reliability. MS Word had more than 10 years of debugging, it is fairly stable now. SO 5.2 is not. We discovered so many obscure little bugs that by now the decision to migrate StarOffice documents to MS Word is pretty much a done deal. Among those bugs:

• Broken spell checker (on Windows)
• Incorrect kerning on some zooms
• Too hungry deletion of highlighted text
• Hangup/Crash if another window gets focused
• Broken "to right margin" checkbox in some cases in index styles
• Very weird flow control
• Anchoring frames to paragraphs does not reflow
• Two indexes weld to each other, Backspace causes lockup and crash
• ... many more, I don't even remember.

The point here is that businesses need reliable, robust, bulletproof wordprocessor. A secretary or a CEO don't want to see obscure dialogs. Can SO and OO get there? Sure. But it will take time, lots of it. MS used its time very wisely, and got a very strong foothold. And anyone who says "Businesses just need bold and italics" are mistaken. Businesses need all features - because technical documents are often very complex and have a maze of page styles. Your suggestion that small formatting loss is OK is not acceptable. Well, you can sell that to me, and I can sell that to you - but neither of us will convince our coworkers that they should come to work on weekends and fix conversion bugs.

So you said dependence on tools like Word will keep businesses enslaved by Microsoft. True, but most businesses don't understand that, and they don't care either. They won't migrate to anything just because it is marginally cheaper.

IMO, the way of liberating our documents is in gradual migration from Office formats to open formats and open applications. Look how Ogg Vorbis slowly but surely enters the MP3 world. Still 99% of all songs are in MP3, but more and more appear in .ogg format. When new format achieves some critical mass - and when applications are stable and good enough not just for geeks but for normal people - then they will be embraced and accepted.

WRT your idea about W3C standards; they won't be of any use without applications, and as I said, applications are very difficult to develop. Just look at Mozilla. Just look at codebase of OO. These are BIG apps. Sure, after 4 years of planet-wide debugging now Mozilla works. We need to have a wordprocessor of exceptional quality, or else it won't be accepted. Formats are secondary, and as people suggested, businesses always can have one or two copies of old Word to open old documents; PDF is for the rest of them.

Well, this comment is not very well structured, but it is good enough for posting at 3:25am ;-)

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[peddrenth]

"Linux is neither a living organism nor a corporation, it cannot be hurt."

Surely that can't be true... BillG is still bitchin' about the government subsidising "his commerical competors" by developing Securelinux.

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[SpaceJunkie]

Lets make sure the next one is.

Word/Publisher/Powerpoint
Okay- Standard formating on documents- how about a bunch of batch scripts(which can be released on OSS) or Vbasic even(yuck) which generate:

Standard HTML

LEX/Latex

Any other open standards document IF there is not an agreed OSS formatted text standard- lets go and design one.
Excel
The same goes for spreadsheet formatting. Its easy enough to get data in CSV- but formatting, scripting, macros and formulaes need to be converted. Someone make a standardised OSS sheet format that supports all of that- with say- java styled scripting or something, and use VBasic for a standard converter.
Access
Now all of the tables and relationships boil down to SQL scripts. But all of the fancy forms, and extra data checking and wizards are not. Someone write a nice visual database with a standard SQL back end for linux then.
Cloned Interfaces
I must admit- because of the legacy of old techies/coders, who like CLI tools over GUI's-these are taking a long time to surface. Being both CLI and GUI user myself - I understand the reluctance. But putting these in- adding a simplified application wizard will greatly enhance the standard of software, and allow consistency in interfaces. Real world users do not like CLI's and will not ever read manuals to find ENV settings, CLI flags/switches and which part of the "/etc" tree they need to modify.
Emulators
Wine, Reactos and Lindows territory- dont think it isnt being done. Actual native applications beat emulators hands down. We need to encourage game companies to release Linux versions(not open source- but good old PC-CDROM for linux) of games. And buy them- we cant expect everything for free. Old proprietory stuff and legacy stuff will probably need to be emulated. But then if its that old- I would be surprised that it runs under windows at all- DOS legacy support is already pretty comprehensive.
I agree on the point of the educators.
My point is that through action- through getting of lazy programmer behinds- we can make this migration. Lets do it.

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[cybermage]

WRT your idea about W3C standards; they won't be of any use without applications, and as I said, applications are very difficult to develop.

The application already exists. It's called Microsoft Word. I'm not suggesting that a standard get created out of the blue. I'm suggesting that Microsoft be forced to disclose the current format, that the format be adopted as the current standard, and that a seperate organization similar to the W3C be created to control it. It makes a great deal more sense to take a format that 95% of people are using and make it the standard than to create one. The fact that Microsoft has been found to be behaving criminally provides a window to do this as a remedy that will help to eventually break their monopoly.

I realize that most other tools aren't ready for prime time, but that's not the point. I won't even try using those tools until I can share my files with people who use Word and vice-versa. Because I need to share docs with others who use Word, I need to use Word. Because I need to use Word, I need to use Windows. I'm stuck using Windows because of the Word file format. You could create a word processor for Linux that typed as I thought, and I'd still be using Word under Windows until I can share my work with people who use Word (and them with me.)

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[tftp]

It makes a great deal more sense to take a format that 95% of people are using and make it the standard than to create one.

Sure, if the binary Word format can be ever documented.

But you don't need to go that far. All open-source wordprocessors read RTF, and all Word versions cheerfully write RTF. Is it of use? Not really, because wordprocessors themselves fail to make good use of the tagged data. You get the text, but lose layout (I don't even mention embedded objects, graphics, rarely used WordArt etc.)

As I said before, the only wordprocessor which can correctly open MS Word documents is MS Word itself, because every little bug and every little typo in its code affects the layout.

Of course, if I were the dictator (copyright honors go to W), I would just mandate use of HTML and PostScript everywhere. Good or bad - does not matter, it would do the job, and compatibility would be a greater good than loss of minor conveniences here and there.

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[Zathrus]

standard file formats

OpenOffice can read/write most .doc and .xls files, with good results from what I hear. MS will not have to release it's file formats - their business applications aren't even being vaguely referenced in the anti-trust suit and are not part of the suit, period.

The other points are good... although I'd somewhat question the value of the education bit. Apple has had deep discounts for decades and it hasn't gotten them anything.

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[Balinares]

Furthermore, POS terminals are a market that MS would like to own.

Actually, I discovered they /do/ have a foot in the cash register system market already. At a big gardening shop in my county, I was surprised to notice that the cash register terminal was running Windows. So I go, "Oh, nice screen!" to the cashier girl, who looks at me warily and nods. "Does it work well?" I add, with a big nice enticing smile with "Don't worry, I know what you feel" written all over it. And then the girl leans toward me and blurts, "Oh crap no! Keeps crashing!"

Still, see, MS has a foot in that market.

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[iabervon]

I have heard that Windows cash registers exist. I have no evidence that anyone likes them. That's how I know that MS wants the market.

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[iabervon]

There are multiple reasons not to switch from Windows to commercial Unix. One is that Unix workstations are an order of magnitude more expensive, and the software is similarly expensive. Commercial Unix has never been priced such that you can put a box on every desk in every office.

For that matter, you're not going to have as easy a time giving your workers machines that their consumer hardware (e.g., pilot cradle) plugs into.

People who work for radio stations still listen to regular stereos at their desks, because it doesn't make sense to give everyone the high-end equipment when they don't need it. But if the high-end equipment was free and had jacks for normal headphones and played all of the media that normal people have, they'd probably switch to using it, since it's better and there are people around who know how to manage it.

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[pmz]

The point here is that businesses need reliable, robust, bulletproof wordprocessor.


So, how does Word fit into your argument?

Word is buggy as hell. I have Word 2000 and end up cursing at it before I'm through with something. I'm generally a nice guy, but fifteen minutes with Windows 2000 and Word 2000 is enough to make me want to destroy my computer and walk to the next city.

Fact is, you are used to the bugs in Word and didn't like StarOffice, because StarOffice comes with different bugs. Live with it.

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[tomstdenis]

Guy, it is not that it isn't a good uptime it's a completely unaceptable uptime at all. Even on an 8to5 bussiness, that means (statistically) more or less ONE undesired reboot per week.

How many people do you know play Quake, JKII, watch tv and listen to Winamp on dedicated business servers?

If I just left my computer alone with Apache it would probably be up for weeks but as it stands I do all my play+work+development on this machine. 4 days up is perfectly fine with me simply because UNLIKE linux I can reboot in under 30 minutes :-o

This is because the Micro$hit crap you run. What an antivirus is? It is nothing but an add-in to a user-space app... and you *have* to reboot!!!???

This is a typically stupid line of thinking. Its not MSFT's fault that "Free-AV" requires a reboot when you install. I mean that's like dumping on Linux because XMMS dumps 4GB files all over your disk or something.

Like I said, if I didn't play quake, watch tv, listen to winamp etc my computer would probably be up more than 4 days.

Tom

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[tomstdenis]

Also I forgot to mention that real businesses do actually reboot weekly. For example, a few years back I learned the hard way why its not "keen" to goto work [at Nortel] early on sunday mornings...

So this "4 yrs, 3 mos, 7 days, 20 hrs" uptime crap that people like to claim [which is unrealistic] is certainly a feat but not something real businesses tend todo.

Tom

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[tftp]

StarOffice comes with different bugs. Live with it.

I do, personally. I can use anything, from TeX to Quark Express. That's the "users" who refuse.

You see, I am just tired of getting accused again and again of "sabotaging our company" and "slowing down the document preparation". Valid or not, these are exactly the arguments flying around. What would *you* do if you are daily accused of harming your company and your coworkers? They all say "Word is perfect, SO is a POS." I say "Ok, then use Word but don't complain to me when it fails on you". We shall see how soon they find out that Word is much more primitive than SO.

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[Thing 1]

We run a web interface to a com object of MS Word/Excel, and people can upload files in MS format and download in a more-open format (eg, RTF/CSV).

Someone please combine this with the latest Outlook/Windows exploit, and convert the Earth's entire repository of proprietary documents into open formats.

Yes, you'd be prosecuted, so no, I didn't tell you. ;-)

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[phwiffo]

... War against Windows

Just an off topic point. It seems post 9/11 everything is a war. Even though we never went to war.. maybe this quote is unrelated.

Is Linux really in a war against Windows? I don't want to argue intentions and semantics but I'd definitely like to point out that in a free market there is only competition, not war. Can Linux even be an antagonist to windows? The intentions are completely different in my mind.

Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[Hercynium]

Yes but if you are this objective in everyting you'll never be a good scientist in any field.

But I don't want to be a scientist! (Dammit jim, I'm a programmer, not a scientist!)

However as part of the agreement with IBM....

[b0r0din]

Sherwin-Williams can only sell the color Blue.

Re:However as part of the agreement with IBM....

[quinto2000]

That was a good first karmawhore. I thought it was relatively funny.

Re:However as part of the agreement with IBM....

[quinto2000]

Ironically, you were modded down and I wasn't, while my comment was clearly editorial, not topical. How sad.

Re:However as part of the agreement with IBM....

[rjamestaylor]

them's the breaks...

Upstart?

[awptic]

Is that what we call something that's been in developement for 11 years?

Re:Upstart?

[ObviousGuy]

It's like bands that have worked hard for years to make it big and then be called "Overnight Successes".

Re:Upstart?

[theCat]

"Upstart" is what your TechDesk news editor calls it when 1) he doesn't use it, and 2) he doesn't like it. I guess Linux will be an "upstart" right up until Microsoft starts selling its own distro. And on that note, I'm going to trademark "Windows LX" just in case.

Re: Upstart?

[Black Parrot]

> "Upstart" is what your TechDesk news editor calls it when 1) he doesn't use it, and 2) he doesn't like it.

Or, 3) doesn't have andy idea what it is but saw other journalists describe it that way.

Re:Upstart?

[Hieronymus Howard]

It's a Reuters article. Reuters always use 'upstart' to describe Linux. I've no idea why. Maybe we should start desribing them as 'Reuters, the upstart news agency'.

HH

Re:Upstart?

[Servo]

What most people fail to understand is that Linux has been around for as long as Windows. In fact, I started using Linux before I used windows 3.1. Windows 3.1 required a VGA card, and all I had was EGA. So Linux worked, and Windows didn't.

What POS software will they run?

[laserjet]

I currently admin a few stores that run a POS (Piece of Sh*t) POS (Point of Sales) program called Microbiz. It runs on Win9x, and it is an unstable piece of junk.

We need to migrate to a new software due to the fact that support will be stopping on our current software within the year. I know there is LinuxPOS, but has anyone tried it? We need a full featured POS app for a small/medium size business.

Things like this give me much hope, as I have always thought that Linux is the ideal point of sales software: it is stable, can be no frills, has good user access control, and the network and remote admin can be made easy.

Linux, while it may not be the most used for gaming and multimedia, may have a niche in the POS market. In my view, it would be the perfect OS for the retail environenment.

Re:What POS software will they run?

[the_rev_matt]

I've heard that LinuxPOS is pretty decent, but never used it myself. It would not be wildly complex to write a web based POS system in Zope/PHP/Perl against PostGRE in a weekend. Hell, if you already have an online store, you already have a POS system. You just need to add the capability for a clerk to do returns and maybe some enhanced searching for in store and you're done. There are already Zope/PHP/Perl apps that do this. Check freshmeat.net and go nuts.

Re:What POS software will they run?

[JonWan]

I currently admin a few stores that run a POS (Piece of Sh*t) POS (Point of Sales) program called Microbiz. It runs on Win9x, and it is an unstable piece of junk.

Man are you right on that, I tried the demo of the videorental version and it sucked big time.

I checked out LinuxPOS and didn't care for it. If they haven't changed the UI it was not intuitive. It's X only, so you have to have a "modern" computer. My poor ol' 486 won't hack it. That is why I have stayed with my DOS POS. I have seen other POS projects on the net, but they don't seem to go anywhere very fast. I wish I had the time and ability to help one of these projects, because it really needs to be done.

Re:What POS software will they run?

[bovinewasteproduct]

If you think writing a POS is sytem that simple go for it! I've been involved with POS since 1990 (My dad co-owned one of two POS scanning companies in Houston from 1987 to 1995, I was his lead PC tech from 1990 to 1993) and I can tell you it ain't that easy. Sure, if all you want is a basic cash register it's not too hard, but when you get into scanning it gets just a little bit harder.:)

And a web based system will NOT cut it either. You'll need an X app to compeate with the windows versions out there. Plus you'll have to write drivers for the printers, scanners (those that don't have a keyboard wedge available), scales, cash drawers, customer keyboards and the other things people hook up to a POS system.

Been there, done that, DID NOT WANT THE T-SHIRT!

BWP

P.S. This is just retail, when you get into hospitality systems (ie selling food), it gets even worse!

Re:What POS software will they run?

[ender81b]

perfect OS for the retail environenment

Let's list of a few reasons for why this is so:

• 1.) Free. Really. Perhaps I should say cost-effective?
• 2.) Customizable. Completely, 100% customizable to your needs. You can modify whatever you want to make it your own.
• 3.) Can run on a old 486 if you want it to. This is a biggy for retail stores. Some of those cash register type thingies cost thousands a pop. Install linux on an old 486 which you can find in the dump for god's sake. The best part about it? You can probably go 5 years or so without ever having to worry about upgrading. I would even say 10 if you go with a pentium.
• 4.) Secure and Stable. Doesn't really need an explanation does it?
• 5.) Easy Network/Remote access admining. This is a big plus. At the restaurant I work for the software they use is a pain, and so is admining the machines. The cashiers tend to surf the internet, etc when they shoudl be working. You could eliminate these factors on a linux system

I think the really big thing for company's is the ability to completely customize the OS to fit their needs. Hire a couple dozen programmers and wham - your needs are taken care of for years to come. You don't have to worry about vendors, licensing costs, etc. Nice and Neat

Re:What POS software will they run?

[cscx]

Nah. DOS had the POS niche. It will for a long time to come.

Re:What POS software will they run?

[Citizen of Earth]

but when you get into scanning it gets just a little bit harder.:)

Just grab yourself a handful of :Cue-Cats.

Re:What POS software will they run?

[Citizen of Earth]

Nah. DOS had the POS niche. It will for a long time to come.

No, they're talking about Point Of Sales.

Re:What POS software will they run?

[NineNine]

I am in the process of opening a retail store, and I'm writing my own POS. I'm not using Linux. Why? The sheer complexity. I'm writing a very simple VB app against an Oracle back end, using the COM object supplied by the scanner companies. W2K is rock solid. Linux may be solid too, but there's nothing as simple, and as easy to modify as a well-written VB app for the front end. I certainly don't want to write some cryptic C app!

Re:What POS software will they run?

[ender81b]

You are right - for a small business it probably doesn't make all that much sense to use linux. But, consider if you had 500+ (or however many) stores. It would be much more reasonable then.

Re:What POS software will they run?

[Khazunga]

You are not comparing equivalent languages. C can't be compared to VB. A more adequate comparison would be VB and Python (perhaps with Qt or GTK bindings).

I don't see how Python is any more difficult to program than VB. It's just that stuff you don't know seems more complex that what you're used to.

You, or fellow developers, I am afraid to say, are the reason I have to wait *ages* at my local hypermarket to get the groceries checked out. But I guess you'll only get it when your app is in production, with 200 terminals. By then, it'll be too late.

Re:What POS software will they run?

[peddrenth]

Any good books to reccommend for people converting from VB to Python / Glade / PerlTK ?

Re:What POS software will they run?

[Bazzargh]

You might want to read this article by Jamie Zawinski (of Lucid Emacs/Netscape fame) on his attempts to get a Linux PPOS app for his club, DNA Lounge. Includes source code for his own one - I dont expect it meets your reqs but the article is useful for a review of the state of the art.

Re:What POS software will they run?

[No2NT]

I work at a company that is a retail shop and an IBM Premier business partner. All we do is service, support, install, and maintain 4690/SA/GSA/ACE/CDSA (IBM retail OS and applications). The POS app already exists and I am willing to guess that IBM will use 4690 GSA (general sales app) and the JavaPOS or OPOS on Linux. JavaPOS/OPOS runs on the terminal (client) side and 4690 runs on the controller (server) side. JavaPOS/OPOS is an api that allows a developer to control the devices on the terminal. I've setup a terminal and played with linux and JavaPOS but suffice to say it's nowhere to completion.
We've tried for over five years to write our own POS application but since we have so many former IBMers in our upper ranks, they keep killing it.
4690 and it's apps are the most stable software you'll find on the market. But those license fees will kill you!

Re:What POS software will they run?

[PD]

I agree that writing a POS is extremely difficult.

What most people don't understand is that this thing doesn't just ring up sales, it runs a BUSINESS. The business owner is going to expect that the thing is customized and tailored exactly to his specs.

That means the system has to support many different types of retailers, with full flexibility.

About 10 years ago I wrote a POS program (company out of business now) and we had immense difficulties with various things like:

-insane Pizza shops wanting the ability to invent coupons on the spot. They honored their competitors coupons, and if it was valid only on a large three topping pizza where one topping was sausage, then he had to have that same coupon in his system, with the same computer enforced restriction. Oh, and it had to be simple enough so that his 16 year old driver could program it in real time while the customer was on the phone with him

-dry cleaning has inventory, but not the way you think. They treat the clothes they are cleaning as inventory. This inventory isn't like any inventory you normally see. It moves.

-or how about this: Some dude runs a restaurant. Ok, no problem. We've got all the shit in there. But wait! He's opening a theater to make it a dinner theater. He wants his POS system to handle ticket reservations and scheduling! Ahhhhhhhh!

Ah, but you say "I'm a programming wizard. I will just whip that up in a night of programming." But it's not that simple. How robust is your code? Can it be crashed by a 16 year old hitting all the keys at once? Will that nifty routine that writes the data to the hard drive still work when the thing is sharing a 6 outlet strip with a hot dog warmer and a bun toaster? And 10 years ago, all we had was MS-DOG. No nice three-phase-commit databases. A convenience store couldn't afford the Oracle license anyway. So give up the silly notion that a POS system can be written by a 10 year old.

POS is literally the most difficult thing in the world to write. You can make everybody happy, in which case you have a program executable over 100 gigabytes in size. :-) Or, you can tell your customers that you can't help them, in which case they don't love you enough to send dollars your way.

Re:What POS software will they run?

[PD]

I just thought of something else to add to my comment:

Besides the owner requirement, there's also the issue of government requirements - TAXES! Yes, they are complicted to calculate.

I was in Michigan when I wrote that POS, and they had 4% sales tax (it's higher now). OK, no problem. Just multiply the dollar amount by .04 and add it on, right? NO! You've got to use a tax table.

The first penny is added at 12 cents. Something that costs a dollar has 4 cents tax. So, what tax does something that costs $1.12 have? 4 cents. The next penny is at $1.13. So, what might the tax be for something that costs $2.12? 9 cents. That's right, that next penny is added at the 12 cent break for something over $2.

This variation might continue in the same pattern for any amount, or the law might say that anything past $100 is just taxed with the same pattern as $1. Or, the law might specify that the pattern just starts over as if the amount was (amount - $100). Or the law might specify that the pattern above $100 is a flat percentage, with specific rounding rules. Or....

I haven't even gotten into the complex patterns that can arise when the tax is 6.125% or some other weird number. I would not be shocked to see a tax percentage of PI*2 somewhere.

There's 50 states. Probably thousands of cities across the country have their own taxes. Things get very scary, very quickly. No way can that be "whipped up" in a night of hacking.

Oh, and let me go on a moment on the joys of calculating prices with 3 figures after the decimal point. The smallest value we have is a penny, a hundreth of a dollar. So why would you need to calculate THREE places? Well, ever notice that gasoline is sold with that ubiquitous "nine tenths of a cent" tacked onto the end? $1.409 a gallon or some crap like that. And that's not bullshit - they really calculate that and you pay it, rounded up at the end.

God, I could go on for years about POS and how hard it is to write.

Re:What POS software will they run?

[EnderWiggnz]

yeh, its "hard* not in the "my god this algorithm is complex" way but in the "why the fuck would anyone do it that way, and why cant they all do SANE things" way...

i used to work for a major corporation that did school records -

do you know how *insane* processing report cards is? yeh yeh - you *think* you can do it in 2 weeks -nope, uh-uh... its totally evil...

though i do have a beef with *this* article in particular.... IBM isnt supposed to be selling netvistas anymore... my shit is supposed to be running on all these POS terminals...

Re:What POS software will they run?

[Jack Hughes]

Hmm... You've got things the wrong way round. You're supposed to give *yourself* the competitive advantage, not your *rivals*.

Re:What POS software will they run?

[NineNine]

Well, first off, to say that a VB front end is slower than any other kind of front end is pure bullshit. It's just a front end. It's completely irrelevant what the front end is, whether you have 2 or 200 terminals. It's the back end that makes the difference. If you're concerned about speed and locking (which is definately a concern if you have 200 terminals hitting your inventory system at the same time), then the database you use is critical.

Re:lol

[donutz]

Until this week, I had no idea that "Paint Your Wagon" was actually a real movie. Then I saw it in the TV section of the paper...

Anyways, that's pretty cool that Sherwin Williams is going with Linux for their POS stuff.

hehe

[big_groo]

-1 Troll:

So...I wonder what a Signal 11 looks like on a cash register?

(Gotta be better than GPF's, Page Faults or Exception Errors.)

Burn Karma...burn!

Re: hehe

[Black Parrot]

> So...I wonder what a Signal 11 looks like on a cash register?

Most of the checkers I deal with would be confused as to whether they should push the "11" key on the register, give the customer $11.00 in change, or call security with a Code 11 Alert.

And they'd probably ask the customer which they thought it meant...

At least with Windows everyone knows that any unexpected pop-up means "reboot, hope it works next time, and if the customer expresses annoyance at the wait, try to make friendly small talk about how crappy computers are".

Re: hehe

[spectral]

So what you're saying is the key to acceptance of Linux is to make it have the ability to throw up a big blue screen during an error. Ingenious! I just sent in the patent :)

Re: hehe

[Bert64]

"It means you should give me $11 in change, thankyou.. goodbye"

Re:hehe

[Anonymous Coward]

Sig 11 on a cash register looks all whiney, self absorbed, and elitist

Re: hehe

[peddrenth]

"if the customer expresses annoyance at the wait, try to make friendly small talk about how crappy computers are"

With optional irony at the "we only sell things which run on Windows" PC-World store...

Good for linux, but kind of insulting no?

[Dock]

I definately think this is a good thing for linux but how is something that's over 10 years old an up-start OS? It's good PR for sure, and definately proving something we've already known, but describing something with such lax accuracy isn't going to help.

On a side note here I ran across about 10 devices like this last year that stored data and operated with cash registers. I don't remember what OS they had but it was probably some novell or DOS mix. The hardware was minimal, a single PCI slot, 12MB of memory, 800MB hard drives and all non-replacable AMB processors (probably around or under 100mhz, I can't remember).

They had floppy drives and I managed to get slackware running on one of them, but I couldn't get the internal NIC disabled (I put a NE2000 in the PCI slot), so I eventually trashed them. Let's see them try to get windows on those things :P

Re:Good for linux, but kind of insulting no?

[Dock]

Pardon, I meant AMD, not AMB. ;)

Re:Good for linux, but kind of insulting no?

[unitron]

What was wrong with the internal NIC and why did you feel compelled to feed the landfill instead of seeing how big a hard drive it would take and figuring out something cool to use them for?

Way with Words

[donnacha]

plans to convert its... cash registers in more than 2,500 stores to the upstart operating system

Jesus, "upstart" operating system, is there any way they could make this sound more terrifying to corporate America?

Re:Way with Words

[sharkey]

Jesus, "upstart" operating system, is there any way they could make this sound more terrifying to corporate America?

...upstart operating system that has been undergoing a pilot program at the Anderson accounting firm?

Re:Way with Words

[Narchie Troll]

It makes Linux sound like an uppity young teenager. "Don't make me come down there, you upstart operating system!"

Where Linux can really shine...

[fmaxwell]

Embedded GUI systems is an area where Linux can shine. The lack of a consistent UI between general-purpose Linux software packages and the sometimes-problematic configuration and administration is simply not an issue in a dedicated machine like a point-of-sale terminal. I expect Microsoft to lose a lot of sales in that arena.

Re:Where Linux can really shine...

[cbensinger]

I work for a POS company and with the exception of the really large retailers I've seen just the opposite trend the last few years. More and more accounts are moving off of proprietary h/w and s/w to general purpose PC's and they want Office, Internet Access, etc., on them. While we prefer to sell/install machines dedicated to POS that's becoming more and more of a rarity -- again with the exception of the really large retailers.

Re:Where Linux can really shine...

[sconeu]

Why on earth would anyone want office or 'net access on a POS system?

Customer: Excuse me, I've been waiting for 15 minutes!
Sales Clerk: Hang on... I've got to frag this dude!

Re:Where Linux can really shine...

[CrayDrygu]

Why on earth would anyone want office or 'net access on a POS system?

Well, at BestBuy (yeah, I work there) our POS systems (which definitely have a dual meaning there) also house the "employee toolkit" -- a collection of intranet web pages for employee use. (They run NT4, the POS software appears to be custom-made for BestBuy as I haven't seen anything like it anywhere else.)

Re:Where Linux can really shine...

[Art Tatum]

What's on your Intranet? I mean, is it stuff that relates to your job (like looking up product information for a customer)? I guess that could be pretty useful.

Re:Where Linux can really shine...

[CrayDrygu]

What's on your Intranet? I mean, is it stuff that relates to your job (like looking up product information for a customer)? I guess that could be pretty useful.

It's broken up into a few different sections/sites. RetailZone has quite a bit of product information, very useful for people who want to know weird things like the bus speed of the eMachine they're buying. (Anyone who knows what "bus speed" means shouldn't be buying an eMachine.) It also has a message board of sorts that's not too active, but sometimes you can find good ideas being traded around there. You can also look up other stores' inventory here.

TagZone has information relating more to the job than the products -- current trends in sales, planograms (the diagrams that show where all the products are supposed to go), that sort of stuff.

And in the past couple months, they computerized the Raincheck system, so that's in there too.

Those are the main sites, but there's also the Employee Self-Help site, for reviewing and changing personal information (if your address changes, or you choose a different health plan, etc), the e-Learning site for the lame computer-based training sessions they make us do, and they're phasing it out, but you can also get to the "green screen" from there (telnet session to a mainframe somewhere, no idea what OS it runs though, as it's not really "telnet"... the server interface is entirely custom). The Greenscreen's mostly used for looking up information on product availability.

So yeah, it's pretty useful.

Linux finds a niche

[ObviousGuy]

Sounds like an optimal product placing of Linux. Windows is certainly a presence here, but it's much more vulnerable in this market than it is in the Desktop market.

I love linux as much as next guy, but...

[seanadams.com]

Why, exactly, does a cash register need to be running a multi-user, preemptive multitasking, protected memory operating system? For these kind of embedded applications, is it not easier to start without the OS, both in terms of development and hardware cost?

Maybe these cash registers run sendmail and apache.... or I just missed /dev/cashdrawer and /dev/paintmixer in the latest Mandrake.

Re:I love linux as much as next guy, but...

[sharkey]

Just off the top of my head...

multi-user
Cashier login, "su" to manager for overrides?

preemptive multitasking
Sorry sir, you'll have to wait 5-10 minutes for your change. The activity logging routine is running, and we can't interrupt it.

protected memory

Whoops, make that 20-30 minutes. My register just crashed.

Just my, admittedly not expert, two cents.

Re:I love linux as much as next guy, but...

[bilbobuggins]

Why, exactly, does a cash register need to be running a multi-user, preemptive multitasking, protected memory operating system?

You are correct, as a glorified calculator it is pointless.
However, once you want your cash register to automatically update your inventory records, track the highest/worst selling items, remember any sort of complex information about sales/discounts etc. etc., all of a sudden a full featured environment becomes pretty attractive...

Re:I love linux as much as next guy, but...

[essdodson]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember any Microsoft offerings requiring you to install an smtpd or httpd. Thin client? Some of our images including an entire office suite either Office 2000 or Corel Wordperfect 9, IE, Netscape, and Eudora were under 300. I wonder how small you could make a system complete with MS-DOS and Novell stacks... just as small as Linux I'd imagine.

That's how it starts. Not on the desktop.

[crovira]

I hadn't even thought of cash registers and other point-of-sale systems but it figures. They need utter reliability and 100% up-time.

There is no way anybody is going to trust the collection or the handling of cash or credit card transactions to machines that are as virus prone and crashable as anything M$ puts out.

The PATH system of trains between New York and New Jersey uses some M$ box to display information to riders on iys trains and M$ is prominently displayed in all its glory when the big monitors hanging over the platforms get "Blue Screens of Death." Tens of thousands of people ride the system every day. That's GREAT advertising for M$. -NOT!

I wish somebody would replace these with some Linux servers so we riders could get systems we can use and trust.

Re:That's how it starts. Not on the desktop.

[NETHED]

Lets hope the train isn't running on Win9X, otherwise they would have to turn off the train and reboot everytime someone needed to get on or off. (There would be a change in hardware.)

Re:That's how it starts. Not on the desktop.

[sharkey]

There is no way anybody is going to trust the collection or the handling of cash or credit card transactions to machines that are as virus prone and crashable as anything M$ puts out.

Bridgestone/Firestone does just that. Goes hand-in-hand with their tires, I guess.

Re:That's how it starts. Not on the desktop.

[quinto2000]

If they run WinXP, they need to call Microsoft every time someone gets on or off.

Re:That's how it starts. Not on the desktop.

[quinto2000]

It's like getting your freak on. Without the freak.

Re:That's how it starts. Not on the desktop.

[Khazunga]

Believe it or not, once at the London Tube, I experienced a reboot of a subway. When the train stopped in the station, the doors wouldn't open. The driver said on the loudspeaker he was trying to solve the problem, and 30s later, the train completely powered off (engines, lights, a/c). A few seconds, a power up, and voliá... Freedom again :-D

Re:That's how it starts. Not on the desktop.

[LordNimon]

I call Microsoft every time I get off.

Exactly A Win For Linux

[mikosullivan]

Yes, this is exactly a win for Linux, and for Open Source in general. At this point Open Source is still winning the easy converts. As it gets more popular, it will get the more difficult converts. The more big-business, mission-critical apps there are out there that run on open source the better for the movement as a whole. It's getting harder and harder for MS to insist that open source is a fringe movement and that it can't be trusted. That's a Good Thing for Open Source.

Re:Exactly A Win For Linux

[nomadic]

Maybe it's a win, but it's an excruciatingly BORING one. Cash registers at a paint store. I can't think of a duller thing to run any OS on...

Re:Exactly A Win For Linux

[fireweaver]

So what? It is just this kind of boring infrastructural stuff that holds the world together. If Linux can run a cash register well enough that the company can almost forget that it even -has- cash registers (i.e. high reliability / availability coupled with low upkeep); then this is a big win in the long term.
Other people with cash registers (particularly the Windows-based ones) are going to look at Sherwin-Williams and go "hey, I think those guys are on to something" and at least think about converting when the time comes to do so.

Personally, I would like to see this one succeed.

Re:Exactly A Win For Linux

[thud2000]

Well, if that's too boring for you, try your local PlanHouse Gallery, if there's one in your area. Here in Jackson, MS, they have PC's set up throughout the store running Mozilla on Mandrake (8.1 I think), pointing to planhouse.com for customers looking for specific information about houseplans, etc. Worth looking into, and maybe a little sexier than cash registers.

Re:Exactly A Win For Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

It is a *really* exciting one for two reasons:
1/ A somehow big company is moving towards an Open Source solution. Big companies pushing Open Source means a lot.
2/ It shows how a third party enterprise can make money upon Open Source software. In this case it's IBM the one (thus paying back its effort on the Open Source environment). IBM can now choose to return any code modifications as open source, thus making more probably for other clients to recall IBM's servicies in this area (that was a big part about what did Ars Digita profitable before the VC's entry) or they can leave the modifications for them (they are not delivering or, at most they should only deliver the sources to their clients) expecting to re-double benefits with next client (probably a bad move but, hey, it's their decition)

Re:Exactly A Win For Linux

[nomadic]

Win? What do we win? Money? Prizes? How does Sherwyn-Williams using Linux gain me anything?

Microsoft's Rebuttal

[Surak_Prime]

So, any wagers on how long it will be before Microsoft tries to counter this with a lawsuit against Sherwin Williams based on their trademark on the terms "Paint" and "Paintbrush"?

Invisible Linux.

[vkg]

Really, at the end of the day, nobody gives a shit what OS the POS is running: as long as it's doing it's job, who cares?

Very much like the server market - as long as it works, nobody gives a damn what OS is running.

I'd say this is an ideal niche, and there's no reason to use anything *else* on a POS, is there?

Re:lol

[DanCo]

Ponderosa pine!

I used to be a Front End Manager

[papasui]

and in charge of cash register maintence at a grocery store and our registers where P3-500s with 128 megs of ram running on DOS and some emulator software that let it connect into the archaic IBM register mini-computer. The funniest thing is that each register was atleast 5x more powerful than the IBM.

Back-Handed Compliment

[donnacha]

From the article:

But, he said, Linux isn't being asked to do too much high-stress computing here. "It's just a nice, low-cost platform for doing kind of everyday computing."

Sooo... if they actually needed it to do anything other than the computational equivalent of a nice picnic, they would gone for a "serious" OS?

Like Windows?

Re:Back-Handed Compliment

[Requiem]

Like AIX.

Re:Back-Handed Compliment

[Bostik]

I noticed the same quote, but consider the wording used...

[...] nice, low-cost platform for doing kind of everyday computing. So in effect they are saying that they consider Linux ready to be used where-ever you need a good, stable and reliable platform to run their applications. Now, isn't this kind of everyday computing just the thing that most users do at home?

I think that quote is indeed very nicely put. It may even prove valuable.

Re:Back-Handed Compliment

[Mr. Firewall]

Sooo... if they actually needed it to do anything other than the computational equivalent of a nice picnic, they would gone for a "serious" OS?

Like Windows?

No. Like BSD.

Re:Back-Handed Compliment

[donnacha]

Now, isn't this kind of everyday computing just the thing that most users do at home?

Sure, but the most important focus for Linux right now is, I believe, industrial and embedded use; an open OS used at every level of our society and throughout the supply chain will be of tremendous benefit to everyone on the planet, far into the future.

Home use is pretty small potatoes when you consider the stultifying effect that proprietry, closed software has as a whole.

What's the big deal?

[ClimberTech]

I mean, it's great that a large company is taking on Linux on a large scale, however, the fact that it will be running on these machines shouldn't be viewed as a huge victory. Do the clerks at these stores even realize what sort of OS they're using? Will Linux run these terminals any differently than anything else?

Re: What's the big deal?

[Black Parrot]

> I mean, it's great that a large company is taking on Linux on a large scale, however, the fact that it will be running on these machines shouldn't be viewed as a huge victory. Do the clerks at these stores even realize what sort of OS they're using? Will Linux run these terminals any differently than anything else?

It's called "making inroads".

Frankly, I don't have much stake in what kind of POS anybody runs for their POS systems, but it is kind of nice to see managers go with quality over marketing hype now and then.

Re:For our young geeks...

[autechre]

According to some employees, it also stands for (or used to, don't know if it's still this way) "I've Been Moved", after the company's tendency to transfer employees all over creation.

Remember when Silicon Graphics Incorporated actually changed their name to "sgi"?

This is what is needed.

[SirKron]

Retail stores need an equivalent of K12 Linux for POS systems. If it is easy enough businesses will adopt it. Using something "like" LinuxPOS this could be done. In fact I am sure there has to be something like this already out there. There are all-in-one systems, like Beetle POS, but this is not open source.

Upstart?! Excuse me?!?!?!

[rice_burners_suck]

Excuse me?! What "upstart" operating system are we talking about? Windows is an upstart operating system. Its code hasn't yet reached maturity, as it still contains many bugs and is unreliable. Linux, on the other hand, has been around for at lease TEN years!! This is NOT an upstart operating system!

Calling Linux an "upstart" operating system is like calling the space shuttle an elevator.

More details

[acordes]

In addition, the International Business Machines equipment won't use Advanced Micro Designs processors, but will be compatible with Transmission Control Protocol/Internet Protocol. No comment was made by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration or Minnesota Mining and Manufacturing.

Re:More details

[Guy Harris]

In addition, the International Business Machines equipment won't use Advanced Micro Designs processors

Well, yeah, I wouldn't expect Sherman-Williams to be too happy about Duron in their stores.

Re:More details

[adolf]

Who is this Advanced Micro Designs company?

All of the Durons I've seen were made by Advanced Micro Devices.

Sorry to cut this post short, but my 1993-vintage post-American Telegraph and Telephone buyout National Cash Register-manufactured laptop is in need of a nap.

Re:For our young geeks...

[sketchkid]

whoa!! were you around when IBM actually sold business machines (copiers, etc.)??????

Lowes Uses Linux

[RageMachine]

The hardware store Lowes has used Linux for sometime now, on the machine they use to take job applications. The machine is an IBM running an X system with some modified version of Netscape. The GUI is a Motif type environment (you can tell just by the buttons). I took my ex-gf down there one day so she could apply, and I watched as she went through the screen. The cursor is just an X, indicating its just a bare X system... Basicly.

Re:Lowes Uses Linux

[NETHED]

The Lowes here goes to X then goes back to an ugly text interface. Maybe its because South Carolina is so ass-backwards.
On the plus side, they do have very beautiful creditcard readers now, and instead of signing a piece of paper, you sign on the screens. And as the local dilect of English allows, you 'mash the Done key'.

[OT] Re: lol

[Black Parrot]

> Until this week, I had no idea that "Paint Your Wagon" was actually a real movie. Then I saw it in the TV section of the paper...

Oh, by all means rent it and watch it. It's a real hoot.

Ask Sherwin Williams

[rjamestaylor]

Perhaps the "Ask Slashdot" topic will change to "Ask Sherwin Williams"?

Ok, move on, there's nothing to see here...

RadioShack

[NETHED]

I worked at RadioShack for a brief stint and this is what I saw at the POS system.

a Tandy machine (no idea on speed) running Win95. It crashed REGULARLY. It was fun watching Scandisk do its thing while a customer is waiting.

The interface is a custom app that pulls its inventory data off of the 'server' sitting in the back room. To do this, each POS was networked to the 'server' in the back room. For some reason, each POS also had Serv-U FTP server running on boot. There was no cashdrawer interface as the cashdrawer was a SINGLE wooden drawer behind the desk with a 'fingercode' access inhibitor. All you needed to do was pull with your middle finger pulling the most.

IF anyone else worked at RS, tell us about it, i'm curious about the current RS situation.

Re:RadioShack

[tweakt]

"Server" in the back is a *NIX box. I remember one time the manager "upgraded the system". This consisted of software updates from HQ off tape.

Re:RadioShack

[mrdogi]

I used to work at a RS up by the Twin Cities. They had an interesting Frankenstien's moster setup. It was some sort of a DOS based system, which was run in Win95. It also used a weird network protocol to talk to the 'server' in back. I can't remember just what type it was. The best part was, this RS also rented videos, so you had to go into a different DOS program to take care of that. Thankfully, we had 3 POS machines, so 2 of them could stay on the video program (we got more business on that side). I remeber thinking how ugly the system was, and great it would be to have something like Linux on them.

Re:RadioShack

[ddent]

buahahaha. Are you serious about the cashdrawer security method? I've never heard of that... its quite funny.

Lose for Solaris (Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linux)

[Anonymous Coward]

This event may not be a win for Linux but is definitely a lose for Solaris. Sherwin Williams must have been tantalized by the latest performance results from IBM for TPC-C. Check out "IBM takes top spot in server-speed race".

IBM literally smokes with a top score of 405,000. It is a world record for Oracle atop Linux or Unix.

Is so!

[The Pim]

It's a "sher" win.

Re:For our young geeks...

[MrCreosote]

Ball typewriters?

Couldn't stop them with a sledgehammer.

Linux migration in the financial industry...

[rakeswell]

...is perhaps more interesting and is becoming more widespread.

Reuters recently announced that it's market news aggregation system (RMDS) is being ported to run on Linux servers. The system currently is running on Solaris and was ported to Windows (but the Windows port is no longer support/persued)

This is just the latest example of the financial industry turning to Linux. Morgan Stanely, Credit Suisse, E-Trade, the NYSE have all started to move to Linux.

It's true that the migrations are generally coming out of the hide of Solaris and AIX. IBM is coming to terms with Linux, and recent signs look hopeful that Sun will follow suite as well.

I suspect that the economy has had a hand to play in the receptiveness of the big players in the financial industry to start looking to Linux-based solutions: everyone is looking to save money right now, and I think it's no accident that the financial industry seems to be taking the lead in terms of being early adopters of Linux in the enterprise.

I can only hope that with the trend towards moving systems over to Linux, these business will be exposed to open source ideals, which -- who knows -- might one day lead to MSFTs fall from dominance.

Isn't it plausible that while Linux may be eating Unix's lunch, this gives it a better chance to spread open source/free software ideals in a new environment, which -- in the long run -- might be what takes the *big* chunk out of MSFT's hide...

Someone has to say it

[reparteeist]

Can you imagine a Beowulf cluster of these things?

Dislexia

[Darth_Burrito]

Linux To Run Sherwin-Williams Cash Registers

Dyslexia, Cure Found For. - Headline from a newspaper in the movie Airplane

IBM, Linux and business

[Mr. Firewall]

This is a direct result of IBM's billion-dollar commitment to Linux last year, and Sherwin-Williams isn't the only one.

Just last week I participted in a rollout for Sears Optical (the little department inside of Sears stores that does eye exams and sells glasses, etc).

The hardware was IBM. The OS was Linux.

According to a friend-of-a-friend who is an IBM rep, IBM has already gotten their billion dollars back in increased sales, and is now ready to pump ANOTHER billion into Linux!

Politics surely does make strange bedfellows. Seems it was only a few years ago that we were calling IBM the 'evil empire' and now all of a sudden they're on our side.

Re:IBM, Linux and business

[zio pera]

Never understimate the light side of the Source !

Re:For our young geeks...

[aebrain]

Around when IBM sold Business Machines?. Yes

Even managed to kludge some hardware together to drive an IBM Golfball typewriter from my Exidy Sorcerer , which at 2.1 Mhz clockrate was the fastest gun in the west. In 1978 that is. Pre-IBM-PC. Pre-Mac. Contemporary with the TRS-80 Model 1 , the Commodore PET and the Apple II. Just have a look at the Old Computer Museum reference.

So just remember that one day, arguments about RedHat vs Debian will be considered "quaint", as the newest alphageek-wannabes argue shrilly about direct-neural-induction vs alphawave-heterodyning on the new Petaflop quantum-Beowulf-cluster-wearables.

While old codgers like me will still be trying to stop said wearables from having the usual code bloat and buffer overflows caused by AOL-Time-Warner-CNN-MicroSoft-General Motors-Unilever-Bell-Boeing-PepsiCo 31337 hackers rather than Software Engineers.

Linux...

[Pig Hogger]

Cover the earth!!!

Re:Success stories?

[Anonymous Coward]

Dunno if it's a success story but here is a link to a similar roll-out of linux as a POS.

Burlington Coat Factory

sushi places in Vancouver

[ddent]

On a related note, there is not a single sushi place with a computerized billing/ordering system in the Vancouver area that is not running linux. It seems that one vendor had a multi-lingual program which is well suited to sushi places, because they all seem to use the same program. As well, there is a screensaver with tux and the name of some consulting company which seems to set them up.

this isn't a big deal

[trelaneopn]

I used to work for them, they're just dropping sco openserver, it will perhaps make it more stable, but the store POS controllers are ibm propriatary CRAP. The cdrw they backup on is so antiquated it came in a case that is slid into the drive. all in all those boxen will still be sad with linux on them. save the money to switch over, buy better hardware THEN run linux on it. anyways sco is crap, and that's my two cents for the day

HUH...

[gerardrj]

I'd like to see all the hype around the "Linux Operating System" when you take away the 95% of it that was NOT written but Linus. IE: all the GNU stuff, X, Apache, etc.

LINUX IS NOT AN OPERATING SYSTEM. It's a KERNEL.

Re:HUH...

[gerardrj]

BSD is an operating system because it includes libraries, headers and utilities that were build by teh BSD project. Yes they use some GNU stuff, and likewise.
GNU is an operating system in the fact that they do have a kernel. It's not completely finished yet, but what ever is.
Linux is not an operating system because it contains only a kernel. A kernel alone is useless to 99.95% of the population (basically only kernel hackers and OS developers care about the kernel).

Re:HUH...

[gerardrj]

And those apps will run under the GNU's kernel, or most any other kernel/os if tweaked a bit.

De-bundled apps like the browsers, text editors and such are not inherently part of the OS, unless tightly integrated (like MSIE is in XP supposedly).

If Linus wrote a bootloader and a shellm, Linux would still not be an operating system. At a minumum he would need to write an entire set of Libraries (you do know the standard Libs in "Linux" are all writeen by GNU right?)

I'm not trivializing what Linux did. I'm just trying to de-trivialize what GNU did.

Re:Oh Really?

[CrayDrygu]

Best Buy uses Windows NT 4 for ALL there POS systems in the company (over 500 US stores). Rarely do they experience problems.

Heh, you obviously don't work there. I once managed to crash a POS by swiping a customer's credit card through the reader on the keyboard when it should have been swiped through the one facing the customer (same pad you sign on). And it wasn't just a fluke, because I could recreate it.

So admittedly they don't crash often, but when they do, it's especially annoying because the P166's take about two minutes to boot, and then the POS application takes about five minutes to load. "Oops... sorry sir, the computer crashed. Let me take you over to the next register..."

so what we really need

[Treeluvinhippy]

Is a quick and dirty app that can convert Office files to other formats with out loss of formating. As someone already stated in this thread Star Office is capable of doing this, so it's not like it can't be done.

Linux should come bundled with a nice kde/gnome widget that converts a .doc or group of into whatever is needed for the work enviroment with three mouse clicks. If an app performs like this,

pick .doc > pick new format > click convert , and performs reliably enough would it be an another incentive among many to switch from Windows?

Re:so what we really need

[peddrenth]

"pick .doc > pick new format > click convert"

Can you do that from the command-line? Is it easy to setup a server which does it automatically and returns the new file?

just wondering...

This is how it starts

[ctid]

I've often felt that Linux is ideal for jobs where only one application is run. Then you don't need to worry about training people to use Linux, because all they see is the application. If it's simple enough (eg barcode scanning prices), the user doesn't know what OS is running anyway. I know it's stating the obvious, but this is true of servers of all kinds too; they do one thing (OK each service running on the server does one thing) and the user has no idea how that is happening.

What will be interesting is how the support structure pans out. Everyone knows that you need staff to support your servers. So if they're running Linux, you need someone who is competent in that. But since you've got to have this person anyway, surely they could do some support of the desktop machines. For example, those which are only used for word processing. So long as the user isn't going to be installing new software, or switching between multiple applications, who cares what OS your WP program runs on?

The odd thing about this is that people say that Linux is OK for sophisticated users and not for the newbies. I'm inclined to think that it's the other way around. So long as your user has to use the same application every day, and doesn't get the opportunity to change things, Linux has to be better (file formats permitting of course), because it's cheaper. So it's the unsophisticated users who can be switched to Linux first (as proved by the POS successes; you don't get any more unsophisticated than swiping past a barcode reader), because they see less of the OS than the sophisticated users.

I Think I'm Getting Off Topic Here, But...

[huinya]

why not convert the Word documents to HTML?

I'm all for flat text files being used for program configurations (rc & config files), but I think when you're typing up a form/report or an article you should format it with HTML. After all, that's what HTML is for - rich text. Other reasons why everyone should stray away from the Word standard: a) macro-viruses b) has anyone noticed how bloated a Word doc is these days (with a header that's a little too informative for my taste, with such goodies as your MAC address)? Compare a similary formated HTML file in size c) you wouldn't need a word-processing program to view it.

Well, I'm sure you guys can come up with enough reasons to exhaust the Roman Alphabet.


-Ken

Re:I Think I'm Getting Off Topic Here, But...

[peddrenth]

CSS2 is starting to have support for paged-layouts (i.e. page-breaks allowed, etc) and some browsers (notably Amaya) support MathML which lets you do equations and the like.

\paragraph{But LaTeX is better}

Still, it's not really a competitor to LaTeX, which is essentially a marked-up \emph{text file}.

It's simple to learn (Links/Downloads/Typesetting on my website if you want tutorials) and it just compiles into a PDF file that you can print or publish.

More IBM-Linux news

[minesweeper]

News.com is reporting that IBM has signed a deal with Landmark Graphics, a subsidiary of Halliburton, to build Linux supercomputers and PCs for oil and gas companies, the companies will announce Friday. Read the story: http://news.com.com/2100-1001-922068.html">

Upstart....?

[paz5]

...convert its computers and cash registers in more than 2,500 stores to the upstart operating system in the next year...

Upstart....? granted linux is not quite where most of us would hope it was but i think its made it past up start by now :-D

Re:Way with Words: 'upstart' linux

[peddrenth]

Simple way to address that... just start using "a convicted monopolist" to describe microsoft in everyday conversation. It'll soon catch on!

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

should be up start

[Rascalson]

Think they got things mixed up. It should be: Linux is always up, and it is starting to kick Microsoft's monopolistic little ass :)

Doing embedded apps not as easy as you'd think...

[Svartalf]

You need a comm/network stack. If you don't use an OS, you end up rolling that yourself. That's NOT as easy as it sounds.

You need a GUI stack unless you're doing a simple register. If you don't use an OS with an app framework, you end up rolling that yourself. That's NOT as easy as it sounds.

Most people will choose to go with an embedded OS and GUI setup of some kind. The "thin" ones won't give you what you need (you don't want the daily reports locking up the machine- you might get that if you don't use a more advanced machine...) and the ones that DO give you what you need are pricey (Read QNX, for example...).

Linux is a good fit in this sort of role.

So what?

[Svartalf]

The desktop market is the same way, believe it or not. Nobody truly gives a damn so long as it works- it's just that MS has convinced people that Windows is "easier" to use, which it really isn't.

Re:So what?

[Art Tatum]

Really, I don't think it's just the easier to use thing. They've also convinced people that Windows has "won the war" and that you won't have any applications or tech support if you go anywhere else. That's more important, I think.

Time to Stop Getting All Giddy?

[dascount]

okay, so its -1 troll time... but

Isn't it about time we stop getting giddy about each win that Linux gets. So 2500 stores worth of cash registers are switching to Linux from another Unix... whoopie.

Linux shines as a server and as a backend for programs like cash registers or inventory. But why should anyone get excited about cash registers?

You want post some exciting Linux news, get a major company or government office to ditch windows and Office and move to Linux with AbiWord or KOffice. Or get a publishing firm to ditch Macs and Photoshop and get them to fireup RedHat with Gimp :)

Linux can win the server battles. But the gain just isn't there on the desktop. Don't believe me, check out google's Zietgeist. Only 1% of google users run Linux (and only 4% run Mac for those zealots). Those are the facts, Windows rules the desktop. Go win the desktops at major businesses or organizations and suddenly we have news. Till then, its not news.

eWeek News Article

[No2NT]

mod Informative :-)

eWeek Article

Finally!

[DragonPup]

Maybe now Sherwin-Williams can help me colormatch the red on the red hat linux box with some paint so I can paint my room in 'Red Hat Linux'. :P

-Henry

Kudos to your users, btw

[jlusk4]

Kudos to your users for even trying, by the way. A serious effort, failed or not, has got to be a useful datapoint. I assume you guys filed lots of bug reports.

Oh boy!

[Junks Jerzey]

This is going to majorly affect my life as a geek! Now I can convert all my friends to Linux, because they all love Sherwin-Williams!

Seriously, I don't know how any of this matters to anyone. UNIX has always been a behind-the-scenes OS, and Linux is certainly not the underground geeks-only OS that many geeks so badly want it to be, so why does this matter at all?

It's replacing UNIX

[RealisticWeb.com]

I think there are very good reasons that Linux is a good replacement here. Have you never seen setups like the ones that they are talking about? There are many many stores that I go to that have nothing but a dumb terminal at the checkout line. Mostly it's been auto parts stores, car dealers, librarys, and even some department stores and gas stations, but usualy not grocery stores. You may have seen it but never noticed. They have a full sized monitor, and the screen is nothing but plain text. If you look at the back of the monitor and the keyboard plugs strait into it, and the cable runs off somewere else then that is gotta a Unix terminal. They are running an older proprietary version of Unix on a server somewhere that has a database of all their inventory, and the terminal software they run was probably custom made by some company that went out of business years ago. We are not talking about the typical cash register with nothing but a number pad and a drawer, we are talking about dumb Unix terminals that connect to server somewhere. In this situation Linux is a perfect solution because most likely they will not have to upgrade any of thier hardware, and the software can be easily ported over to linux and save them alot of money.

I feel your pain, brother.

[Ilan Volow]

From 1998-1999, I worked at a Radio Shack in NC. We were actually one of the first stores in the country to go from SCO unix to Win95 POS.

The win95 machines were somewhere in the region of pentium 75-133's. Yes, Radio Shack management was dumb enough to buy their hardware and then wait two years before shipping out the system with the software. One of the silliest things about the "upgrade" is that it was really nothing more than making almost an exact carbon copy of the curses-type SCO interface in a Windows 95 GUI, essentially replacing CLI text fields with identical GUI text boxes that really don't take advantage of the GUI paradigm. Just because you make a bad interface pointable and clickable doesn't mean you've made the interface that much better (in his book GUI Bloopers, author Jeff Johnson refers to this as a "TTY problem"). Our manager was discouraged by Tandy technical support from calling a bug a bug. He was told to call it an "issue".

One of the silliest things I remember about the radio shack machines is that none of them had a cd-rom drive. Guess what we had to do if we needed to look at the Tandy catalog CD-ROM? We needed to get the key to open up one of the cabinets for the display computers (the ones sitting above the fake computer shells they use to demo the latest models), type in the password to stop the demo, stick in the CD-ROM to get what we wanted, restart the demo when we were done, relock the cabinet, and then finally put the keys way. There was not a whole lot of incentive to get out the CD-ROM when it wasted time we could have used to earn the commision necessary to put ourselves over minimum wage.

Whenever I hear of Radio Shack being called "America's Technology store" I laugh heartily.

Re:I feel your pain, brother.

[Art Tatum]

Whenever I hear of Radio Shack being called "America's Technology store" I laugh heartily.

Well, as the saying goes: "You've got questions, we've got blank stares."

Re:For our young geeks...

[sketchkid]

you know what i mean.

my favorite image of IBM is this grainy, old, black & white video of an IBM store (presumably in NY) and it was just filled with huge copiers and other business necessities like coffee makers and jolt cola dispensers. ok, the last part was false. but the video gives the viewer a good sense of how a company must adapt/re-invent itself in order to survive its products' life cycles.

High-stress computing indeed!

[zoneball]

Article says:

But, he said, Linux isn't being asked to do too much high-stress computing here. "It's just a nice, low-cost platform for doing kind of everyday computing."

Ha, ha, ha. They're worried about Linux doing high-stress computing; I guess they haven't come across Beowulf clusters nor Google yet. As if uSoft doing high-stress computing and ending up with a BSOD is a much better alternative.

Re:Lose for Solaris (Re:Not Exactly A Win For Linu

[fantastic]

How did Solaris *lose* this account?

The Unix they replaced was SCO unix, often used as pos terminals which is really a loss for Caldera especially as they already had this account!

Re:For our young geeks...

[sketchkid]

i believe this is where i am supposed to show repect for my elders

(there's no double meaning here, just face value)

Wow, I've come full circle...

[NoahPlark]

(not that I want to date myself) but in the early eighties we were all rooting for Microsoft to topple IBM, or at least give it a good kick in the pants. IBM was a big arrogant bloated lumbering beast that did not tread lightly on their competition (sound familiar?). They were definately taught a lesson. Now, here I am rooting for IBM to kick Microsoft in the pants, and but good. You go IBM!!!

Re:Blown Opportunity for Apple

[borgheron]

Part of the problem with Apple is that Steve actually believes that everyone will wake up one morning and come running to Apple. It hasn't happened yet and it's not going to happen anytime soon.

This is a company which produces *great* tech, but has no idea how to market it.

GJC

Posting anoymously is for wimps!! ;)

Microbiz

[fdisk3hs]

You mean they came out with a Y2k-compliant product? We had to drop them because they had no promises on Y2k...

Went to a home-rolled Foxpro setup, with a VB front end. It sucked wind.

I am now at another company using a PICK database. Come on!

I am confident that at my next job we will only be allowed to run Visicalc on Mac IIc 's...

LR

Tastes Great! NO! Less Filling!...

[Art Tatum]

You can also say that Linux is an operating system and that X, Apache, sh-utils, etc. are applications (or you could call them an "Environment").

Re:Tastes Great! NO! Less Filling!...

[gerardrj]

You could also call a potato chip an operating system. That doesn't make it one.

Re:For our young geeks...

[sketchkid]

newsflash!!: seriousness is awarded mod points on /. commenter confused, but says he'll take karma any way he can

Info...

[quigleymd]

I know this post is quite late, but I do have some info.

I work for a retail store that sells auto parts via a large distrubitor. The store uses a UNIX/SCO based POS System with a 'server' *pentium 133* and several dumb terminals.

Every nite, the warehouse dials all stores to gather sales data, and do minor updates / fixes. The only time we ever have had a problem it was direct result of 'operator error' *eg. the printer was OFFLINE for the nightly report - Done so many times by my boss* There are monthly CD updates that are shipped to us that update the software/database, and they are rather simple to install. The major downfall of the system is that it does nightly backups via a tape drive.

The only gripe I have about the system hinges directly to the fact that my 'thrifty' boss bought the cheapest/smallest system available.

[OT] Re: Not Exactly A Win For Linux

[psamuels]

Admitedly a week uptime is not alot but often there are new virus updates within the week so I have to reboot anyways.

What?!? You have to reboot for software updates? You must be running either HP/UX or something from Microsoft! (: Oh, you mentioned viruses - never heard of viruses for HP/UX, so....

(I still fondly remember the time, must have been 1997 or 1998, when someone on Usenet came up with an idea for how init could restart itself without losing state. The sysvinit maintainers promptly implemented it, thereby eliminating the last reason to have to reboot a Linux machine to update any software short of the kernel image itself.)

Re:For our young geeks...

[aebrain]

Respect for Elders?

Over-rated. Sometimes, anyway.

Let em earn that respect. But be warned: "Old age and cunning beats youth and enthusiasm." . They didn't get as far as they have without learning dirty fighting, even if they appear as thick as two short planks. Said appearance might just be a smokescreen. The good ones will take criticism, and either rejoice that you've helped them with a problem they'd been getting wrong for years, or gently point out to you the error of your ways. You either get ego-boo, or learn something. Of course there are plenty of charlatans in the business, and almost as many bright egomaniacs who although good, aren't nearly as good as they think they are. Neither take criticism very well, and they can make your life hell.

Course I'm only 44. Not exactly ready for the Knacker's yard yet. My (so far only) son's only 10 months old, maybe I'm just a slow starter.

On the gripping hand, it can be very annoying when you see youngsters with real talent not even bother to check the literature and learn from other's mistakes. And it's downright infuriating when you see their teachers do the same.

So good Luck, Grasshopper (get the reference? you're 19 or so according to your user-data, so probably not).