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An Offer Tivo Owners Can't Refuse
An anonymous reader pointed us to this little tidbit. The BBC paid Tivo (company slogan: "TV Your Way") to force owners' boxes to record some new program they wanted to push, which looks incredibly exciting. UK Tivo owners seem a little upset.
Does it force you to play them?
And what's stopping stations from turning off the commercial-skipping feature through similar bribery?
The "little upset" link wasn't; it just explained that the program "does not take up any of your recording capacity - it is stored in a seperate reserved space."
If it doesn't take up space, and will lower the overall cost of the unit by allowing another revenue stream for Tivo, and you don't have to watch it, and it doesn't interfere with the rest of your programming, why is this news? Am I missing something?
I stopped watching TV because the ads enraged me. Ditto radio. I've been keeping an eye on the Tivo on the off chance television ever becomes economical (eg- I can get sci fi without having to get 37 other channels I never watch). And now they're essentially spamming their userbase- what next? A hard drive full of Golden Girls and The O'Reily factor?
:P
Fuck that- if I want unrequested, unwanted bullshit in my space, I'll go check my hotmail account. The fact that Tivo is doing this violates the basic concept behind why the boxes are selling at all.
If TV were actually configurable, it would be a simple matter of dropping the offending network from your selection of channels. But it's not- users have the illusion of choice. Much like cokeheads- you can have it cut with ephedrine or vitamin b. Or asprin. But you can't have it pure.
Screw these guys, I'm going home.
I fail to see what the big hoopla is about, or why this is even posted to Slashdot. After all, this isn't even the first time that this has happened.
"I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots." - George Bush
Makes me wish we had a satellite dish PVR instead. At least then we wouldn't be dependent on phone calls to keep our PVR working.
Really, it appears that the Tivo unit goes out of its way to NOT cause a problem. As the summary post stated, it doesn't use your own storage space, it doesn't pre-empt your own desired recordings, and it asks to change the channel if you are currently watching something.
The last one seems to be the only annoyance, if you were in the can, you may come back to find it on a new channel, but I think Tivo did a decent job of trying to make this a painless "grab" of promo items which aren't even forced on you - just automatically made available to you. The only way it really could be made any more painless is multiple channel tuners, so it could grab the show off the 'backup' no matter what you're doing in the first place.
What you said. The hardware's available for peanuts. (A cheap-azz Duron or P3 or P4-Northwood box, plus an older ATI-Rage-128-based capture card is all that's really needed here.)
The only thing missing from the open alternatives today is the software. (If I were a good enough designer/coder, I'd do it myself. Sadly, I've gotta wait 'till others, with madder sk1llz than I, get around to it.)
Any of you coder-d00dz wanna brew up an "embedded" Linux distro? Ideally, this could even be a turnkey solution -- "Buy hard drive. Buy supported video card. Boot from floppy. Insert CD-ROM with disk image. Reboot. Done."
If I buy a box, the hard drive is mine, not the advertiser's.
(I'd be very interested in knowing, from Tivo owners, if the advertiser-mandated download pushed off any content you were archiving. I'm disgusted by, but could tolerate, a Tivo recording stuff without my knowledge or consent, so long as programs I wanted to keep were preserved. If I owned a Tivo, I would never tolerate an advertiser overwriting a show I'd recorded on my Tivo's hard drive in favor of its own content.)
And since Tivo execs are reading this -- if your advertising (which is what "records a show when the show's owners pay you enough" really means) does overwrite user-saved content, I'll never purchase your product, for any reason whatsoever.
Following the link posted in the article about TiVo users being upset has a list of 'known facts' about TiVo Enhanced Content.
> If you have another programme scheduled at the time the promo airs, then TiVo will record your scheduled programme and will not record the promo. Your own scheduled recordings always take priority.
> If you are watching Live TV at the time TiVo will ask permission to change channels to record the Promo. Note if you are not around to say no TiVo will go ahead. I *think* the buffer up to the time of the channel change will still be available.
As a TiVo user, this really doesn't bother me. It is a possible alternate source of revenue for TiVo, which is always good. I've noticed them before (as other US TiVO users) and I've watched a few.
As long as it's available as an option only on the front menu, doesn't take up my recording space (they use some 'reserved space'), it doesn't force me to watch it, and it doesn't otherwise restrain my usual TiVo use, I really don't think it's a problem at all.
The TiVo is a tool that changes your TV watching habits in such a way that you may not be exposed to new shows as a normal commercial-watching viewer. While it (on principle) bothers me that it ignores parental controls, especially for a show with bad language, this is a tolerable way of letting you know about new shows.
Invasion of privacy probably not. However unless they were very careful in the wording of their contracts and people didn't read very will it might well constitute a criminal offence under the computer misuse act. It may also be possible to take civil action against them if as reported it recorded material intended for adults and let children play it ignoring the parental controls.
Actually... the funny thing is that mine doesn't have a power switch. :-P
And seriously, is it that bad?
Reading the links tells you that it doesn't (or shouldn't) interfere with anything that you are watching or recording. One of the features i like the most about my TiVo is that it's always trying to record something even if i haven't set that time aside for something else. I can't see how it's a bad thing that TiVo gets more money to record something when the unit would otherwise be doing nothing else.
I mean come on slashdot drones, TiVo needs to make SOME amount of money to keep themselves alive.
While not exactly the same as this, I noticed recently that at around 2:30am, my Tivo asked if it could change the channel to record "data which was part of the Tivo service".
Curious, I agreed. TiVo tuned in to the Discovery channel, where a rapidly-changing full-screen barcode was being broadcast with a small text box in the center that said the broadcast was part of the TiVo service.
After Tivo was done a few minutes later, I noticed Sheryl Crow's new music video was prominently displayed in "Now Showing".
- James
As the moderator posts on the TiVo boards point out, the recording is made to a reserved part of the system, so no space is lost, and does not interrupt any other recording the users may have been doing. So, in that respect, it's not actually as offensive as it sounds.
What does strike me as dubious is, "The Dossa & Jo promo contains some bad language and is unsuitable for younger viewers. Parental controls are not effective so be careful." (quoted from Gary Sargent, a moderator at TiVo).
What they are saying is, "Regardless of how you try to protect your children's viewing habits, we will disable your controls and make whatever content we feel like accessible to anyone who uses the box - and this may well be your children who are in from school before you." Not only do they disable the parental controls, due to the nature of the TiVo unit, they also make [potentially] adult material available outside of the carefully regulated UK "watershed".
So, how long before a TV channel wants to get viewing figures up on some late night porn dressed up as a documentary and a nation comes home the next day to find their kids happily watching away at 5pm?
From the TiVo FAQ:" In 2.5, there is a unofficial, undocumented way to turn on 30 second skip. This will turn the "skip to end" (->|) button into 30 second skip. However, this means you will lose the current functionality of that button, including skip to tickmark while in RW/FF. To try it, enter the following sequence of buttons: Select-Play-Select-3-0-Select. The code will toggle 30 second skip off/on so enter it again to switch back if you don't like it. Also, after any reboot, the button will revert to original standard functionality." This seems to work best if you do it when a prerecorded program is being played...
I think a million Tivo subscribers returning their boxes would be a fine educational example for Tivo, BBC, and any marketroids who read about this and thought "oooh...now that's a way to increase our market share".
And what would they learn from that? Tivo owners have already paid for the box, and will not get the money back. The only loss of income Tivo would face would be from those customers who were paying for their listings monthly, instead of ponying up the "lifetime" fee. I'm sure this would be offset by the amount of free hardware they could refurbish and resell to ohers, and collect new listing fees from... besides, if these are a large percentage of the original Tivo boxes, and not the Series2, it could speed up them killing off support for the original boxes.
Get off my launchpad!
you could simply make sure your kids don't watch it. i mean, if it is on BBC, i don't imagine that you have your parental controls blocking that channel to begin with, and they could just sit down and watch it when it was live. how is that different? simply monitor what your children are watching... jeez. people make me sick. wanting the government or electronic boxes to parent thier children for them.
What is the big deal? Doesn't your Tivo already proactively record shows without your permission, shows that it "predicts" you might like? Nobody complains about Tivo doing that. Tivo and the BBC are now just influencing that existing algorithm (with cash money). This stupid BBC show is now just another OPTION on a list of choices. It's not like you are forced to watch this show against your will. This is not A Clockwork Orange or something..
cpeterso
No it doesn't force you to play it. It doesn't even force you to *record* it. It will only record it if it's doing nothing else. It does not take up any recording space allocated to the user. In fact the only intrusion is that you get an extra choice in your menu of recorded programmes
Now, this is a scheme for them to make money with minimal intrusion. I honestly can't see anything wrong with this as it is not intrusive in the slightest
Again, read the article
File under "High-tech product obeys manufacturer over owner."
You laugh now, but wait until your flying car automatically lands at a McDonalds every hour during any long trip. A feature they didn't tell you about when you bought it. In fact, one that didn't exist when you bought it...
Thank you, I'll take the product that you can't reprogram remotely. The one that works for me.
Argument 1: "It's coming from reserved space, so it doesn't affect your existing programs."
What if I have a 15 or 30 hour box (at basic), and some event (vacation) means I'm having trouble juggling just a few things I wanted -- in the meantime, space is "reserved" that could have been provided for my use (remember me, the one who bought the product for usability's sake).
In that sense, the reserved space affects my regular space, and that of anybody who purchases the box, because only so much "space" fits in a given box. If it's about making for both happy users and a healthy company, the money from people who prefer the "extra" space rather than reserved space may outweigh the (payoffs from networks minus lost subscriptions from angry users).
Argument 2: It doesn't pre-empt live television.
Mostly wrong, though it doesn't seem to pre-empt scheduled recordings. I often pause a baseball game and leave the room to take a phone call, for example, or leave it playing knowing that I can go back 20 minutes or so to catch Barry Bonds' record-tying home run.
On 60 seconds notice, a forced program changes the channel and loses the previous program buffer. Goodbye, user option to review what they might have missed, all because they weren't on guard with the remote to respond "yessir" or "nosir" to the equipment they own. Remember that is one of the prime selling points of the product, at the moment.
For you non-Euro-resident readers, the BBC already collects a gigantic toll from the population at large ('the license fee'; currently UKP112 for a colour TV ) for its budget, in exchange for what is generally regarded as among the best programming anywhere. While I have supported the BBC strongly in the past, this kind of activity essentially is extremely unethical for a number of reasons:
The BBC, through its joint ventures in the UK (particularly publishing and radio), North America and elsewhere, is already blurring the distinction between public monies (the license fee) and private finance to an unhealthy level. With this latest effort they lose a little more of their hard-earned reputation of objectivity in pursuit of coin, and more importantly, give the British public less of a reason in future to pay the fees.
Regardless of however small the payment was in the grand scheme of things, this was wrong. To think of it another way, 100% of the British television public paid for only a small subset of viewers (less than 1%?) to receive something that they probably didn't want. How is that acceptable?
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Death will come, and will have your eyes
-- Pavese
For free? Where's the nearest electronics store, I need a tivo!
Amen, brother. That's why I don't own a PVR. I want one that doesn't need to phone home, and can get its programming info from the guide channel or something. Am I reduced to the Linux PVR project? I'd rather not build my own.
I spent a year in Iraq looking for WMD and all I found was this lousy sig.
TiVo has been toying around with this ever since the 2.5 software came out in the US. TiVo uses these recordings for good as well as evil.
In the 3.0 software, TiVos will now download a large chunk of their data from these special programs. TiVo does this by buying a late-night paid programming slot on the Discovery Channel. The actual show looks like a screen full of CC data, and there is a major upside to receiving these datacasts. They significantly shorten the length of daily phone calls. Bonus. (Not to mention that the 3.0 software on Series 2 units unofficially supports update-over-internet...)
As has been stated over and over, the special recordings don't take up usable space. A portion of the MFS filesystem is flagged as Reserved, and this is where the data goes. TiVo downloads a promo, it runs its course, and disappears. It also will never switch to record the show if you have something else set to record in the same time slot, so it's not even very intrusive. And in the US (not sure about the UK), the time slot is early in the AM when you're not likely to have programs scheduled to record anyways.
Regardless, the promos aren't that intrusive, don't take up recording space, and don't interfere with your recordings. Plus, Embeem has created a script to remove the ads, which has been around for quite a while, so you can remove the ads yourself if you're horribly offended.
So long story short, this is not a crisis situation. You're not forced to watch the ads, and its easy to ignore them. Hell, you can even remove them yourself with a little trickery. What's the big deal?
If an extra menu item in TiVo Central with an icon next to it is enough to make you refuse to buy or even return your TiVo, ESPECIALLY since Embeem offers you a script to remove the menu item yourself, feel free to take your TiVo back to its point of sale. It just means less complaint postings in the TiVo Forums for the rest of us to wade through.
As a Brit, and a TV owner, what I want to know is why the BBC is spending licence-payers money on this sort of thing? What does trying to force people to watch programmes they don't want to to do with quality broadcasting?
And yes, I know they weren't forced to actually watch it - but surely it isn't appropriate for them to be spending this money telling people they were wrong when they looked in the Radio Times and went 'nah, I don't want to watch this'...
You still have control of the hard drive. If you want to reformat it and blow away the operating system on them, you are completely able to do that. The Tivo just becomes a little less useful afterward.
If you don't pay for the Tivo service or just don't hook your Tivo up to the phone line, then you can stop your Tivo from downloading this content that you don't want on your hard drive. But then you won't get the cool features you bought the Tivo for which is automated recording of shows, guide data, etc.
His point is that if you pay for the Tivo service, you get the Tivo service and all the things that come along with it. Just like you pay for Internet service. If your ISP decides not to route port 80 traffic to you, they have that right, and you have the right to cancel your service if you don't agree with it.
First, no one's forcing you to watch the show. It simply appears as an option on the menu. You can ignore it as you wish. It's far less intrusive than the average banner ad; and ads don't stop you from viewing Slashdot. It's even less intrusive than Google text ads!
Second, the extra space on the Tivo was not something that you knew about when you bought it, and it did not affect your purchase of the Tivo in the least. When you buy one, you know that it's a sealed box. If someone wants to make a PVR libre, I'd be glad, but Tivo reserving a very small amount of space is completely normal for a corporation.
Finally, a number of people think it's bad that the program had "bad language" but that it overrode "parental controls". Talk about control. What gives you the right to decide what your children can watch? Tivo has a program downloaded to your box... but it doesn't override your schedule... but it doesn't record if you ask it not to... but it doesn't force you to watch it... but it doesn't take up any space... And you're outraged! But your children are being explicitly denied the right to watch a TV show, solely because it has some "bad language" (which isn't bad - would you rather your kids fist- or gun-fighting than swearing?), is completely fine. Listen to yourselves!
Here's a little tidbit for those of you with the same kinds of gripes about Sheryl Crow.e bruary/001372.html
http://darwin.codefab.com/pipermail/random/2002-F
That link provides a list of TiVo Backdoor Codes.
To remove the clips from a TiVo 2.5 unit, first enable Backdoors by entering "B D 2 5" (one space between each character) into the 'Search By Title' and pressing ThumbsUp.
After enabling Backdoors, enter the following code from the ToDo List:
- Thumbs Down, Thumbs Down, Thumbs Up, Instant Replay
This will put all those little clips from TeleWorld into the ToDo List and will allow you to delete them.
Granted, this doesn't free up any space for you, but it at least deletes the entries for BestBuy and Sheryl Crow from the Showcases. Maybe even from the main menu (I don't know because mine is already gone).
Just a bit of info for those fellow TiVo users.
His point is that if you pay for the Tivo service, you get the Tivo service and all the things that come along with it. Just like you pay for Internet service. If your ISP decides not to route port 80 traffic to you, they have that right, and you have the right to cancel your service if you don't agree with it.
Any service you are paying for covers only what data is sent from Tivo to you (as with your ISP). If Tivo uses the services to make the machine do things that are not in your interest, then they are using it to control you.
Unless the agreement I assume UK Tivo owners have to agree to for service covers this, isn't this some form of invasion of privacy?
Oh wait. I forgot, that's all gone in the UK.
Yeah, troll away. Be an ignorant fool all your life. Take the easy option.
For your information, the British do have some legally enshrined rights to privacy, some granted by British law, others granted by European Union law.
Included in these is Britain's Data Protection Act. Basically, the DPA governs every detail of how companies treat all the computer-held data that they have on their customers, employees, etc.
One nice benefit of the DPA is that I can demand a company disclose all the information that they have on me. They can charge a nominal fee for this (£10 ~ US$15) but they must comply within a set time limit. And, obviously, if their information is incorrect or harmful in any way they can be made to correct it (and I have the right to take appropriate legal action if I want to).
Now, I can demand that of my credit card provider, my bank, my doctor, my employer, my accountant, my gym, my golf club or anyone else who holds information about me. Try asking that of similar institutions in the US and elsewhere and see how far you get.
Yes, our laws are different. Yes, you have some rights that you'd cut off your right arm than give up (gun ownership anyone?) but, remember, we have some that you'd cut off the other one too to have.
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
"I have a non-Tivo PVR that does not have a monthly fee and does not spy on my TV viewing habits. "
I have a TiVo that does not have a monthly fee and does not spy on my TV viewing habits. So that's a strange coincidence. Maybe you could have gotten a TiVo if only you did some homework first.
"Now what would people say if Microsoft pulled a similar trick? "
The Windows 95 cd came with a Weezer video. I don't remember anyone complaining that their CD space was being used for things they didn't care to watch.
" If there was a genuinely free market in DVRs the features would be determined by the capability of the technology rather than the business model of the vendor... Fortunately there are Tivo competitors, "
uh, so you're saying IF there X exists then Y wouldn't happen. But then you say X does exist, but somehow Y is happening. Wow! that's logic for you.
You really have to understand how the TiVo works to understand this is part of what you paid for. I never once heard anyone complain about TiVo Takes (A weekly TV magazine that spotlighted next weeks cool shows) when it was airing. But suddenly TiVo records something you don't like and you're up in arms asking for the very feature people love to be stipped away because they don't understand it.
If you haven't used a TiVo it's likely you simply don't understand that this is a cool feature and not an outrage.
Joseph Elwell.
Tivo does this in the states too. On a Tivo remote there's a button that looks like taht retarded little square tivo thing (I think it's supposed to be an evil mutant TV set) You push that button to get to the main menu. Then you can select "Now Playing", which is the stuff that you have recorded manually (plus the stuff that tivo suggests based on your veiwing profile), and there's a "Showcase" selection, which is where stuff like "This month on HBO" and the Sheryl Crow preview is located. This information is seldom longer than 1/2 hour total length, and is considered part of the 2 gigs of space that tivo has for 'system' stuff. Tivo isn't decieving customers, it's using advertising as an alternate source of revenue, and it's opt-in advertising, for chrissakes. I'm not forced to watch these updates, I usually don't even know that they're on my tivo, and I don't care.
But I've turned into a tivo zealot as of late, so take this with a grain of salt.
Brant
Argle. Bargle.
Claiming Tivo filters channels when you're still paying for them- something another poster mentioned- is sticking your head in the sand. With the web tools available these days, I can simply choose how militant I am about control of the ads I recieve. By default, I disallow pop-ups entirely. Flash is a waste of bandwidth, so those wind up being dropped as well. I honestly don't mind banner ads- some of them are interesting. At least on the sites I go to. I could argue one angle of "these cats need the revenue", but the fact is, some of the sites I visit plug things that I wouldn't have found out about if it wasn't for their banner ads. This is nice, and the potential enjoyment factor is worth the possible hassle.
On the other hand, I have yet to be exposed to a blasting, annoying as hell TV or radio ad that caters to something I'm interested in. I have zero use for cadillacs, depends, preperation H or beer. I could give a shit about the X-fest. It bugs me that I know about these things when I have no need or use for them. But then, I'm the sort of person that actually figures out what I need and then looks for a solution, rather than eagerly being led around by the nose.
The internet advertising environment can be configured by an educated end user on a more or less global level. The television and radio environments cannot- sure, you can flip around, but if you haven't noticed, most networks seem time things so when you flip, you hit another commercial break. You can take or tivo and fast forward or drop commercials, but you're still expending effort to do so. Not an effective solution.
On top of all of that, tv and radio are passive. The net is much more interactive, and I'll take that over the tube any day.