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Palm m100s - A Pattern of Defects?
"I took it home and started playing with it. The Windows Palm desktop software installed and worked fine, the HotSync cradle did what it was supposed to do, and I happily started filling up the address and date books using the stylus. Only a few hours after I started using it, the display started acting up. The lower-left corner of the touch-screen started becoming insensitive and inaccurate. Not only were the neatest attempts at Graffiti input reduced to unrecognizable scrawls (using the Graffiti tutorial to trace out what the unit thought I was writing on the screen), but buttons on the screen above the input area were being activated (despite my going nowhere near them with the stylus). Repeated attempts at recalibrating the digitizer, as well as both a soft and hard reset, failed to fix the problem.
A quick search of Google Groups yielded several threads about this issue from others experiencing the exact problem. These experiences were also confirmed by negative reviewers at CNet. Some of them went back and forth with either Palm or the retailer with multiple replacement units, none completely working and defect-free.
Having had my m105 for less than 14 days, I promptly took it back to Office Depot for another one, which they were cheerfully willing to do. The second one worked just fine except that the top power button was inoperative! I was almost willing to live with this (as I could turn it on via other buttons, and have it automatically turn off), but the power button also controls the backlight and the hard reset. Based on my experiences with two defective units, and the bad experiences others have had going through both replacement and repair with Palm, I'm wasn't sure that I wanted to try a third. I took it back for a refund (also cheerfully done, and with apologies).
Obviously my experiences are not unique or even rare. Furthermore, repeated attempts to fix the problem via replacement or repair are not successful. Is this just a poorly-engineered and manufactured product to meet a price-point? Have there been quality control problems at their new assembly plant in Mexico (Previously all Palms were made in the United States)? Should I just forget about trying to get a low-priced starter Palm for the time being?"
My IBM C3 (a rebranded Palm V) has gone all to hell. The digitizer in the screen has to be recalibrated almost every two days now! Sometimes I can't even reach the menu bar to recalibrate the digitizer because the sensor is so far off!
Using a PDA to woo the ladies? Yeaaaah. Good luck with that. Tell me how that works out, mmm'kay?
-bugg
I'm currently enjoying my Sharp Wizard 770. It has 3 MB of space and syncs with a PC. You can load programs on it just like most PDA's. The built-in keyboard is nice and responsive. The only drawback is a monochrome screen, but it has a nice electroluminescent backlight. I bought mine more than a year ago for about $80 and it works perfectly for me. Maybe it's not a fancy gadget with cellular modem options, etc. , but it does a very nice job for a low-end PDA.
I've owned a Palm V and a Plam Vx; both have been rather durable and pretty reliable, although I have noticed that, as they get older, you have to continually recalibrate the "digitizer" (the touch sensors in the screen are calibrated by tapping on top of a target placed at two corners and then the center of the screen), otherwise there seems to be some "drift." Still, this is manageable.
I would not be at all surprised to see growing pains of this kind as the company attempts to cut costs in order to move into new markets and increase profitability.
I hope that the negative attention they're getting will force them to improve; while far from perfect, I like their work, and hope they continue to stick around.
For an ordinary person looking for a PDA but not interested in shelling out $3-600 for an all singing all dancing 8 hour battery life Windows CE wonder, I'd recommend going on half.com or ebay and snapping up a Palm V or Vx. These can be had in perfect condition for about $60 and $100, respectively. I guess they don't make 'em like the used to - but the older models are still excellent PDAs - palm's virtue (and curse) has always been keeping things simple, so little has changed over the years.
-David
We're on the road to Tycho.
Regardless of the cost of the device I would hope that if you buy a Palm device it should be reliable. Sure, it may not have the features of it's bigger brothers but starting to fail on the same day you buy it is just not acceptable. If there are this number of devices that are failing so quickly you can be assured that Palm most likely knew about it during the development and protoyping phase. They must have decided that putting out a piece of crap is fine as long as they can still make a buck off it. Let's face it,a lot of us are still choosing Palm based on their name and past success. Time to look at someone else.
I love my BareBones PAD.
--
pants ahoy
Maybe you got a Willard instead of a Wizard.
I love my diamond mako - really, a rebranded revo plus. Keyboard, sixteen megs of RAM, integrated word processor and spreadsheet apps, and you can find them on pricewatch for around a hundred. Like a sucker, I spent $300 for mine, but I still think it was worth the cash. Only problem is the lack of a backlight, but that's never been a real problem for me. Also, some people report battery issues.
I'm the stranger...posting to
Handsprings, from my experience are the most reliable PDAs. Everyone I know who has one loves it and never has a problem with it. I'm also prone to playing with PDAs on display in Staples and such, and the Handspring models are always functional. I can't say the same for any other brand. Handspring PDAs are also the most stylish.
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
unfortunately, my experiences with all handhelds has been less than satisfactory when I have purchased one for under 200.00, I guess you can say that you get what you pay for. Honestly it's somewhat hard to be able to validate paying more than 200 though for something that doesn't do everything I would like it to as easily as I would like it to yet. It's still somewhat new (and often somewhat proprietary) technology, so things change every quarter or two....
I went through multiple windows ce units, as well as a TI Avigo and now I'm using a palm m100. I often have many problems with syncing, the software will freeze up or the palm won't talk to my desktop properly. The unit also had a dark spot in the bottom right hand side of the screen though. My favorite pda so far that I've ever owned is a tie between my Ti Avigo and my Hp JORNADA (although I don't like running windows).
The biggest problem I've found with pda's? It's too easy to break the screen, and often they are too bulky. I like that many of them have screen covers now though, more than used to. It means fewer scratches, and units seem to be a bit better built than they were a while ago, still, you often get a flimsy plastic case when your in the 200.00 and under market, while if you go up in price you get metal alloy's or a thicker plastic case...
[Something witty and intelligent should have appeared here.]
{Traicovn}
About two and a half weeks ago, I took receipt of a refurbished Sony Clie PEG-N610C. It cost me $239 + shipping for a 320x320 16-bit color screen and overall a very high quality device. The case is aluminum and it has a nice, attractive flip cover that protects the screen.
Since I've owned it I've "dropped" it twice. Once I knocked it out of the hotsync cradle and onto the floor about 3 feet below. No damage. The second time I brushed it against my leg while I was walking and it went spinning out onto the ground. Again, no damage. My brother dropped his Visor off the kitchen counter and shattered his screen. It you are looking to be a little more budget and don't need/want a color screen, I would recommend the PDA my roommate has, the Sony PEG-T415 (320x320 B&W, 8mb, around $200) or the Sony PEG-S320 (160x160 B&W, 8mb, around $150).
Why Sony you may ask? While they are a bit more expensive that a lot of PDAs, the 320x320 screen on the 415 and the color models is gorgeous and they all are well built and snug in their aluminum cases. They also have Li-Ion batteries that charge when they are on the cradle (although mine has a slick system where the charger plugs into the cradle normally, but can be plugged directly into the unit and used as a travel charger) so you don't have to buy batteries for it.
Anywho, enough advertising. I don't work for Sony, I've just been very happy with their PDAs. Clearance Club is where I got mine and they have quite a few refurbished B&W models still.
I did quite a bit of research on PDA forums and such and had pretty bad luck finding anyone who had bad things to say about the 610 I got, and so far, I'd have to agree with the good things everyone had to say about it. Everyone I show a high res picture to just ooo's and ahh's and is incredulous when I told them I paid under $250 for it.
-Sokie
------
Where are the slash-groupies? I distinctly remember being promised slash-groupies!
Palm.com refurbished store.
Oddly enough, I have never had a problem with a refurbished Palm device (even the ultra-old 3Com Pilot I bought long ago worked like a charm until I ditched it voluntarily). I know it seems counterintuitive, but maybe the best bet now is to go with something that has already broken once in the past (and has now been fixed and extensively retested by Palm). Plus, the refurbished devices can be half as expensive.
At the moment only the m500, m505, and Vx are available in the refurbished section, but sometimes older (and even cheaper) equipment pops up.
4-star general in a one-man army.
Having deployed a couple hundred Palm M100 and M105s at work, I can say with certainty that the M100, and to a much lesser extent, the M105 have a problem with defective manufacture (something around 5% it seems) but are also of generally poorer construction than all other Palms. I dislike this, but I feel it is unfair to compare this series of Palm to other manufacturers because they're first generation devices and they're one of the few modern PDAs that are designed to enter the sub-100 dollar price range. All other Palms in my experience (from the IIIs, to the V series, and so on) are exceptionally reliable when you consider the amount of abuse they withstand. It's really an apples and oranges comparison. If you're willing to spend the same amount of money on a Palm as you are on the other handhelds, you can get as good, if not greater, quality.
Everybody want to get the best possible deal whenever we buy something. This goes not only for electronics, but for all big-ticket items: homes, cars - you name it. When it comes to most stuff, we have at least a vague idea that quality costs, and is worth having. We don't usually get the car with the lowest sticker price; we get the one with the best balance between perceived mechanical reliabilty, guarantees and price - features being equal.
But with electronics - specifically computers and related devices - we tend to act differently. We have an idea that all machines are about equal in qwuality; they tend to use the same components from the same factories, after all. Instead we have a sheet of performance figures (this much memory, that many MHz and so on), and try to find the seller with the lowest price for what we want to have.
What we forget is of course that quality still matters. There are a lot of ways to make a functionally identical item more or less reliable and long-lasting. But by focusing on price and ignoring quality issues for so long we have been digging our own graves. If a manufacturer is to compete (and not just become a niche operator or go extinct), he needs to cut corners wherever he can. You get circuit boards manufactured by the cheapest possible technology, soldered together by the lowest bidding contractor that still barely meet very minimal standards, and pack it together with iffy, electrically noisy power supplies and/or the cheapest rechargeable batterypacks money can (or can't ) buy. Then you install it into a case that's made to be cheap and easy to assemble, but that's barely adequate to hold the package together - and totally inadequate to protect the package from the wear and tear that will be the norm for the unit. The thing works when brought out of it's box, but that's about it.
Consider this: Let's say Palm had two models. they are identical, functionally - feature by feature, they are twins. One, however, is built to last, with a thicker glass substrate, a sturdier case, better solderings, sturdy metal contacts, 'real' key switches and so on. It's still not 'ruggedized' by any means, just a lot better at handling the daily grind. It also costs another $50 or so over the other unit. Which one will be the big seller, and which one will mostly collect dust in the showroom?
/Janne
Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
The m505 is not the answer. Geek.com had the folloing story about the m505 having problems with its USB hotsync. Here is the article.
I am an authorized HP repair tech and they are a prime example of the downturn in product quality. Just the other day I worked on a HP Jaserjet 4SI. This printer and never been serviced and all it needed was the routine maintinance kit (fuser, transfer roller, paper pickup rollers). The amazing thing is was this printer had a mfg. date of 1992!
Fast forward to the next day. I have a client to whom we sold 4 new HP Netserver LP 1000r (HE wanted them, we only reccomend compaq servers). First 2 we sold him were of a batch where the SCSI cables were so cheap that if you disconnected them, they were hosed (HP Tech told me that). So when I installed the optional NetRAID controller I basically killed the cable (one died in service, we are going to go ahead and replace the other).
Now onto the 2nd batch we sold them. One of the NICs in one of the servers started dropping packets. Then is slowly degraded until it died completely. HP doesn't send out a new main board, they send the core module (mb & case. Everything but the procs, ram, and HDs). We transfered everything to that unit. Dead. Returned that unit, ordered another. That was dead too. Still haven't got this server fixed and we are back to working on it monday. HP doesn't have a clue of what's wrong, they just want me to order 5 parts on a warranty claim (there goes our proformance metric).
If you have ever used a DeskJet 600 series you know that HP is making some crap. Likewise if you have ever used a LaserJet 1100.
HP still makes some good products (plotters, high end LJ), but the difference between now and 10 years ago is painfully obvious. And, I suppose, the difference with other companys is the same.
Write in and tell your stories.
------- Assumption is the mother of all f$#@ ups.
FWIW, my trusty PalmIIIx which is several years old sports a "made in malaysia" sticker.
May contain traces of nut.
Made from the freshest electrons.
A friend of mine has a Newtwon MessagePad that still works beautifully, despite all the snobbish snearing from people with their fancy new Palms which seem to e made of tissue paper for all the problems they seem to have with them. :)
___
Cogito cogito, ergo cogito sum.
I got my Handspring (The most basic model, 2M memory) for around $100 over a year ago. It's been sturdy and held up well, and is expandable.
Fry's Electronics even sells refurbs for good prices for the Deluxe's (8M mem) and some of the later models.
I still use my Handspring, and am waiting to see the direction of the product lines before jumping up to a high priced/performance unit.
I stayed away from the M series because they just seemed too low end.
Me - Professional Computer Geek
I received a Palm m105 from a friend who got his free with a Dell computer. I first noticed that the display pad was always out of sync with the stylus. Even more, the calibration utility with the Palm did not work -- it kept going in a constant loop. After posting to a couple forums and trying out some freeware calibration programs, I just decided to call Palm up.
They were very helpful with the problem and gave me instructions on sending the unit in. Within 2 weeks I had a brand new m105 that works perfectly.
As most of the forums already say, there definately is a defect problem with the 105's. It sucks, yeah, but because Palm handled my situation smoothly, I'm not too mad about it.
Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day.
I think this is true with just about any product. Electrical devices are probably even more susceciptible to defects/damages during processing. For example: We had an iPaq at my place of employment that worked fine for about a week, and then the screen went dead. It would come on, then fade out and disappear, no matter what we did we couldn't fix it; ended up having to get it replaced under warranty.
The same is true with other products, such as vehicles. Any given vehicle may actually be repaired or have parts replaced, etc. many times before it leaves the assembly line, and even while it is out in the lot at the factory. The auto industry, or at least the factory where I worked seemed to have a much better way of dealing with this; and defects found after leaving manufacturing were at a minimum.
Maybe the electronics industry just needs to rehaul some manufacturing processes and defect detection and correction. I've had my share of bad motherboards, monitors, and other parts to deal with it. The cost to them in repairs must be pretty high. Although, it would be nice if they would pick up shipping costs at more places for warranty work. I don't have to pay anything at all except price in gas to get my car to the dealer to get it fixed; why should I pay to ship back a defective product to get it replaced?
What?
My 1000 series has survived many horrors and still works to this day, even though it has been deligated to my 10 year old daughter as a toy.
my PalmIIIx also has worked perfectly. accepts drops without a complaint, and never gives me fits or operation errors except when I tried to upgrade it to Palm OS 4.1... I downgraded back to 3.53 after the asenine bloat they stuffed in 4.1 (I never knew you could slow a palm device down to the speed of a Windows CE device... 4.1 does it well...)
I have noticed that the newer M series looked rather cheaply made... smaller screen (WTF is up with that?) and my next purchase will not be a palm device but a Sony as they seem to be the ones that picked up the ball and are creating the quality palmos based devices...
Older ones are bullet proof..
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
... an HP Jornada 547. Before you flame the pure living crap out of me for running WinCE, hear me out.
It is the best OS I have ever ran a PDA under. Hell, it beats a lot of OSes on the PC even. I have yet to see it completely crash to the point where I need to reload it (I've had it for a little over a year), which is something I can't say for Palm. I also have no problems hardware wise, nothing is insensitive, and it works perfectly fine for me! That, and I like color. I dislike Palm due to previous problems with their hardware AND OS.
--- Ãther SPOON!
The cool thing about technology (or uncool, depending on how you look at it) is that the absolute top of the line, most expensive tech toy out there, after a year, isn't. This means that you can hop onto ebay, or your favorite surplus website and look at those formerly spendy Palm V, or iPaqs.....I just got an iPaq 3600 last month for $200. The screen is awesome and the price can't be beat. If you take a step back and look and the differences between the newer units and those from a year (or two) ago, there really hasn't been THAT big of a reason to upgrade.
The first iPaqs ran at 209Mhz.....guess what the brand new ones run at? Yup, 209Mhz.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I bought my Palm IIIx so long ago, I don't even remember. I think it was at Thanksgiving three years ago. I believe I paid about US$200. About six months later, I dropped it and it stopped working. With a single phone call, Palm advance shipped me a replacement under warranty in one day. Ah, those were the days.
Sometime later, when the TRGPro was being discontinued in favor of the new Handera, they were on sale at Sam's Club for about US$225 and I bought one. (For those that don't know, the TRGPro is the Palm IIIxe where the TRG folks added a CF slot and better speaker.)
My employer bought exactly the same model TRG for each of us seven admins. In all the time since, none of my peers have ever had any problems with the TRGs.
My IIIx is still in use by a girlfriend and she has had no problems. The only problem I have had with my TRG is some small scratches on the screen from the horizontal stiffening members in the flip-down lid. This was from the unit being bumped against things while in my pants pocket.
Sync has never been a problem - and I sync with NT and 2000 on desktops and laptops at work and with Macs at home. I have also successfully synced with my Red Hat box.
In short, I haven't had any significant problems. Of course I have older units. My next PDA will likely be the Handera 330 based on the track record I have seen with my TRGs.
War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength. - George Orwell or George Bush?
handspring != one drop wonder
I've had my trusty visor standard (lowest of the low end visors) for about a year and two months now, and being the careless slob that I am, I have dropped it countless times, on pavement, granite floors, wooden floors, etc... I even threw it on my bed once and it bounced right off and landed on my bedroom floor... but the little beast is still alive and kicking...
I've always had the provision of keeping the little screen protector that came with it hooked up, 'cause I never know where the little visor might end up next....
But so far, no cracks, only a couple of scratches on the back.
So cheap doesn't necessarily mean "cheap"....
No, seriously, I just come here for the articles.
The Cassiopeia E-200 line of PocketPCs had a similar problem. It seems the first batch of units produced had a faulty sidelight where it would burn out, usually within 2 weeks. This happened to about 75% of the first batch of units, and I was unlucky enough to get one of those. I exchanged it for a new one and have had no problems with it, but am waiting for it to burn out once the warrantee is up...
Casio has been very responsive about this issue and issued a new batch of units which do not have this problem. However, it just makes me wonder, do companies beta test their hardware any more? This sidelight burnt out on the defective batch usually within 14 days, under normal usage. Does this mean that they don't even beta test their products this long?
have worked incredibly well since purchasing them. The first is a Jornada 548. Not the perfect PDA I'd say, but it has been rock solid for nearly 2 years now. The other is a Photosmart 1215 printer. This thing is not only fast compared to most inkjets I've owned, but also extremely quiet. Beyond that, it has built-in CF/SM card readers and apparently will print photos right from the memory cards, although I've never tried. It seems to me, that like any other hardware manufacturer, HP has their share of lemons, but also certainly has their share of high quality, reliable products.
Perl - $Just @when->$you ${thought} s/yn/tax/ &couldn\'t %get $worse;
For A long time I was loving mine (Actually a 730... a little less ram than the 770) but the screen "Crapped out" after being stuffed in a carry-on bag for 10 hours of a plane flight.
4 columns of pixels are kaput.
That seems a little weak to me, since the entire time the unit was folded closed.
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
Yeah, and if people just starting to use your product line have a VERY bad experience, what are the chances they'll be interested in buying the more expensive stuff you want to sell?
His "dip into a wading pool" resulted in a shark attack.
I don't think he's going to go that route again.
Either he'll go to a competitor, or just forget about PDAs entirely.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
I'd say my experience with all PDAs has been bittersweet. I had a Palm Vx and an OmniSky modem, which held up wonderfully, schlepped it to and from school from 6th to 8th grade. I truly hated the OS though, and I still do. Graffiti is wretched, a true pain to learn, because it doesnt adapt to you, you adapt to it. Plus it was monochrome, which isn't fun at all. But it kicked ass over everyone else's PDA at the time, which only showed up in 8th grade, all of which were little Handspring Visors, the low-end ones. In essence, a Palm is a very sturdy thing, but you pay a premium for it (an insane amount compared to PocketPC, in terms of what you get). I now have a CompaqHP iPaq 3650. I've had it since August, got it for my freshman year at my school. Along with a dual-expansion pack and a Toshiba hard drive, I haven't had too many problems. I've dropped it, had other people drop it, and there have been no problems in the way of it falling on the floor, with the exception of a hard drive failure about 3 months ago. The PocketPC OS is much nicer tho. As far as maintenance goes, the Palm takes the cake, it's pretty much indestructible when left alone. A PocketPC however, falls apart no matter what you do to it.
I have and love my Palm Vx and it kills me that its no longer on the market. It is slim and efficient. I love the charge on the cradle and 8megs is more then enough for my palm. It kills me that when I service plan this Vx, I will no longer have a Vx. Oh so sad - teardrop, teardrop.
Ive gone from Palm IIIe, IIIxe, Vx and none of them have ever given me major fits. My little sister uses the m100 we got for free, my mother and mother in law use the IIIxe, my fiance the Vx, my aunt the m505 and my uncle the m500. We all LOVE all palms and have never had any major hardware problems. My aunt even dunked her Vx in a toilet and it worked okay for a few more weeks, then we service plan'd it.
The ultimate network admin tool needs HELP!
Conversely, I've carried my Palm V around loose in my pocket for 2.5 years now and aside from all the decals wearing off to illegibility, I've been amazed at how its sturdy design has survived so long without any hardware failures.
Da Blog
I got mine about a month or two after they came out. I've had it ever since and have had no problems with it at all.
"A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson
I was at a university fair, and a palm rep gave me a CD with their 'educational software package'.
Most of the stuff was pretty useless, but one cool thing they had was a thesaurus (really good when I'm away from my comp and can't use 'dict'). While it was a lot of memory to sacrifice for an m100, I tried it out.
I searched a few words, and it worked well. I asked my dad for a suggestion. He said 'umlaut'. So I entered the word.
4 hard resets later...
I have no idea what they have against Germans. Seems odd that a palm-thesaurus would hose your data because it didn't like the word, or say if you mispelled it... lol.
-- "Is this death or is this Ohio?"
I had a 'clear" IIIe, and early m100, both of which I gave away to colleagues and are still working just fine. Can't remember recalibrating them more than a time or two, they sync right up, though I think the IR on the m100 is shot - honestly? most of what I did with it was impress other people by frivolously beaming something to another Palm just to show it can be done.
I'm now on a Visor Neo - which I'll prolly give to my fiancee now that the Edge is so cheap. (plus, next to my iBook, the Smoke colored Neo looks like it was made by Black -) and the dirt-colored Wintel box).
As for the 'third time' - um, your implied choices are "maybe more crap" and "DEFINITELY NO PDA"
Right now you can get a Visor Neo for $147 at any WalMart. Sturdier, far more expandable, a screen that mops the floor with the m1xx series.
I've decided I need a minimal PDA given the 4-lb iBook - when I was on my 7-lb PB1400 I used the Palms far more than now - and the greyscale 8MB does 80% of what I need to know/do/see walking around. I know the Treo communicators combine two useful things, but I have yet to actually see one being used.
I figure I'm going to sit on it or drop kick it sooner or later, so I won't sink major bucks into such a thing. Same reason Ihaven't gotten an iPod - there's a detente about heft and size that seems to determine dropability - I've dropped my eMap a lot, but never lost my GPS12 - never booted a CD Player, but my MP3 player is hard to keep ahold of. The iBook has yet to slip loose, but the Palms are always being saved by a quick stab. In the same vein, I've cut myself with every keychain-sized knife or tool I've ever tried to carry, but never so much as a nick from my trusty Victorinox Soldier.
Go figure.
"Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
The reason I still had a III was because I couldn't decide on what to replace it with, but now I was forced to choose, so I searched all over the web and decided on the IBM branded Palm Vx, which had been discontinued in the US, but was still available in the UK for a good price. I called IBM and they refused to sell it to me unless I used a credit card with a UK address. So they lost a sale.
Turns out I would be forced to buy something in a store, and the store prices for Palm type devices are insanely higher than in the US, so I just couldn't bring myself to do it. Then I searched all around and decided I would mail order a particular Handspring or some such, and it would be waiting for me when I got back home. My boss agreed to pay for it, as the Palm III had been bought by work, and I was on a work trip.
Then a guy I know over there told me he had a M105 that Dell sent him for free with his laptop, it was almost new, in that he had only played with it a bit, and he agreed to sell it to me for the discount price of 20. It has a much better screen than the Palm III, and of course 8MB instead of 2MB, and obviously the price was right, so I was pleased at first.
Since then the M105 has mostly worked correctly. The case of course feels like crap. The plastic is cheap and the sections pull apart with no effort. The screen has since developed an area in the middle that is a bit too dark or too light, depending on how the contrast is adjusted. Even worse, twice now the unit has completely refused to turn on. I had to remove and reinsert the batteries to get it to come back, and at that point all of the memory was erased.
Still, for $30 I would recommend one to anybody, but if you have to pay real money, get something else. I would also have to recommend that people avoid the newer M125. If Palm wants to get out of the hardware business and just license there OS to other manufacturers (as has been rumored occasionaly), making junk like this is certainly a good way to start.
On product just getting worse in general? I have a $2500 (when it was new) Dell laptop that in 1.5 years has had almost every piece replaced at least once, and some of them twice or more. The only original pieces left are the actual LCD part of the screen (the plastic it is encased in has been replaced several times), the floppy drive, and the CD drive. The floppy is rarely used, and the removable CD drive spends most of its time sitting in a drawer.
I don't abuse the machine. Mostly I carry it between the bedroom, living room, and kitchen in my house. The plastic on the case is so brittle that it cracks at regular intervals. After just getting the external power supply replaced last week, the second time, now I need to call to get the bottom replaced, because it has cracked in the same place it cracked a few months ago.
Ironically, when entering computer lemon law into Google, the sponsored link is www.dell4me.com.
Yah, but out of a batch of 10 we got, I think 7 have been serviced within a year. The most common problem appears to be the battery giving up and dying within 5 seconds to an hour after leaving the cradle.
:) but eventually decided the dependency on it didnt mix with the shoddy engineering in handhelds in general. They break more than the paper kind.
I used a handheld (psion series 3) regularly for about a year in the early nineties (even coded a space invaders for it during a boring train trip
Maybe I'll pick up the habit again. When they become dependable.
Is this part of the economic factor? After all, if your system was lasting forever, companies would have some problem justifying their investor that they can sell you stuff only once.
I bought a PowerPC laptop back in 1995 and I could beat on the keyboard, not use a bag to carry to class, sit on it, almost anything it would take. Last year, I got a TiBook: first week, the return key broke, the next day, I hold the machine, the battery felt off the machine (while working), the screen had 5 bad pixels when I got it and the sticker feet on the bottom left the machine one at a time (without mentioning keys that scratch the screen, heat that burned my laps and locking system that doesn't work anymore.) Overall, a beautiful machine when you see it in an ad. But not built too last.
A friend of mine has still an HP-41C in perfect working condition (made 20 years ago.)
PPA, the girl next door.
-- I feel better now. Thanks for asking.
You can configure the backlight to use an upward pen swipe in the "Button" preferences
A Handspring Visor Deluxe 8MB (in an Ice case)... I think they are down to $100-$150 now. I got mine from my employer 2 years ago.
Since it uses PalmOS 3.0 (upgraded to 3.1), and is nearly identical to the Palm series, I'll leave future posters to describe their likes and dislikes with their Palms. The only problem I have come across is a problem with the system's RAM, which Handspring has posted a fix for on their website. Once I patched the problem, it has been working like a charm for the last 2 years. Never had a problem with the screen or touch sensitivity, and even after loading plenty of programs into it, I still have well over half of its RAM left. Even after importing my company's entire LDAP directory into it (via an exported CSV file from the company LDAP server) with 5000-or-so records, I still have plenty of space left to store whatever I please.
I think the biggest reason I like this thing so much is because it was free. Although if it were taken away from me, I'd march right down to my local geek toy store and buy one on the spot.
Fully licensed blockchain psychiatrist
I have to disagree. I've built three AMD systems: A7V, A7V133, and A7V333-R, and all have been solid, as has my P3-based ASUS CUBX. OTOH, my Epox 8KHA went flakey, and it's got the same VIA KT266 chipset the A7V266 has. VIA really pooched the KT266, I had HD corruption problems until installing their WinXP IDE miniport driver, but the KT266A that quickly replaced it has been good (Epox 8KHA+ in the system I'm typing with now). ASUS is more expensive than average but I trust them over everyone else. The A7V333-R in particular has been very impressive.
In my department, two HP 4100 series printers died within a week of purchase.. "fuser error". One 1100 series decided to just up and die for no reason. A third 4100 has developed random roller noises, that are likely a sign of things to come.
Our main 8550 printer has never worked right, random print speed issues, resolved by using older/incorrect drivers that don't actually use any of the features you would buy an 8550 for. And no matter what driver you happen to pick, if there is paper in the manual feed tray, it will claim paper jam until you pull the paper out, and put it back in....for every single sheet. It will then print from the manual feed tray, regardless of what you choose in the print driver. Turning off manual feed entirely allows it to print from the correct try by default, but anyone wanting to use manual feed then has to turn it back on themselves. This operation, naturally is buried as the last option in the paper handling menu. In other departments, their two year old (4550 series?) printers jam when anything tries to pull from tray three. This is a problem with 6 of the 6 printers that they ordered.
Is it really that hard to make hardware that actually works correctly any more? Seriously, these printers aren't cheap, and if we have to send back EVERY printer that comes into us for repair at least once, it really can't be saving them all that money. They could at least make them so they break 1 month out of warranty, like everything else. At least then we get something that works for a solid year, rather than random downtime while things get sent back and forth. Spare laser printers aren't exactly one of those things you keep laying around.
And their driver support just keeps getting worse. HP 3100 combo fax/printer/copier thingy? no XP drivers downloadable from their website, you have to order the CD containing them. All we use is the print functionality, they could at least toss a 3 meg printer driver up, even if they are contractually bound from posting the software that lets you use full functionality. Same for their webcams. I have Photoshop, just give me a small twain compliant driver, and I'll be happy, I don't need Hippy Dippy Bed Bath and Fun Image Manipulation Program to come with it.
Meanwhile, our printers bought prior to 1997 all are still working, without a peep, and with no service whatsoever, other than toner changes and paper refills. Screw you HP, and screw anyone who looks like you.
Why do we keep buying their crap? I work for an edu that apparently has a contract with them. Spectacular.
I got a 7x and a folding keyboard for $150 a month or so ago. I haven't bothered to activiate the (apparently pretty lackluster) wireless. Mostly I use it with WordSmith to do writing in parks and restaurants, which is pretty nice now that spring is here in New England (a couple months late).
I've actually found the ugly little monochrome screen to be an asset for this application, since it cuts down on my habit of revising each line obsessively rather than writing something and then revising it.
It's pretty cool--7xes are dirt cheap 'cause their wireless feature has been outmoded by more recent versions. So you buy one and you just don't use the wireless. Works for me, anyway.
Infant Mortaility Syndrom.
Happens to everyone. Thermal burn-in can reduce the risk, move you down the curve of the bathtub.
Are you sure you know which palm you are talking about, and what you are really wooing with it?
Maybe it's true: you get all the love you need right from your palm.
"Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives" should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
It seems like dropping palms (Visors or real Palms) has a lot of luck involved. I've had three palms -- one IIIe, one Vx, and one m505.
I dropped the IIIe dozens of times, but then one day it fell out of my pocket onto some carpet from only a couple feet up and cracked the screen.
The Vx was even more sturdy: I remember running down a hill and dropping it onto pavement from 5 feet up, watching it skid for several yards, and then picking it up without a scratch. Then one day I started keeping it in my inside jacket pocket -- a bad idea since all the protection I had was the flimsy leather cover it came with. I don't even remember it being hit by anything, but I took it out and found a big crack down the middle of the screen.
My m505 has faired much better -- not wanting to spend another $250, I invested in a Kensington aluminum case (IMO the nicest case around -- those titanium things are too sharp). So far it hasn't been dropped, and the case allows me to keep it in my pocket without fear.
Anyway, after many drops and relatively few failures, I can say that Palms are pretty sturdy. Most of the time. Maybe they just wear out, but I think there is a lot of luck involved. A friend of mine cracked his screen the first time he dropped it -- after only a week.
Our first familiy computer, purchased back in 1994, was a Packard Bell. I don't need to elaborate about it breaking down four times during its use, but when we bought it, we slapped down $600 for an HP Laserjet 4L. Every ink printer looked so sloppy compared to the crisp text of the laser printer, so we figured it was a good investment.
Eight years later, that HP Laserjet 4L is still sitting here next to the family computer. It still prints documents as good as it did out of the box. The only degrade in quality is that there's a small squeak that occurs with the paper rollers inside the printer, but it doesn't affect the functionality at all.
When I helped out in the computer science department in our high school, I was often paged to fix a "printer disfunction." The printers that we had throughout the highschool were HPs. Most of them were Laserjet model 4's and 5's, and the rest were HP Deskjet 6xx and 7xx. Not once was I asked to ever do anything more for a Laserjet than replace the toner or clear a paper jam. On the other hand, we had to send at least one Deskjet per month to the printer repairmen. Those printers would constantly get out of alignment, smear, not take printer paper, or just in general not respond to anything from the computer.
But remember, those LaserJet printers, when they were brand new, never sold for less than $500. Unlike much computer hardware on today's market, those printers were worth every penny.
... until the quality increases. Over the past 3 years, I've purchased no less than a half-dozen PDAs (from the base Handspring model to the Sony CLIE I bought my wife for Christmas). Every single one of them, except for the Sony (and give it time, it's less than six months old ...) has had problems. Oh wait a second, I did drop one on the bathroom floor at work and the ensuing screen damage rendered it inoperable.
But the others (all Handspring here) have all suffered from defects ranging from annoying to unusable no more - on one, the backlight stopped working 4 months after I bought it. Another, a Visor Platinum, refuses to sync - it used to be funny and I could jiggle it a little bit, but now, even after swapping the base USB plastic connector deals out, it still won't sync. A visor deluxe I bought for my wife has a several buttons that don't function properly.
Admittedly, a few of these were "refurbished" models sold for a discount, but I was led to believe that that meant they got a little more quality testing to make sure the consumer wasn't sold a defective product. Not so in Handspring's case.
It's just too much money to waste on an item for the dicey reliability factor. And once you start using one, putting all your info into it, having to send it off just isn't viable. Either you buy another or you go back to toting that Franklin day planner again.
AZspot
It's not just you. It's like any other product cycle. Look at most people's first VCR. Built like a tank, right? How about most computers from the early 80's? You see, when something comes to market as a premium product, it tends to be made a bit better to appeal to that kind of customer. The thinking is that if the technology is going to make something cost $2000, that same buyer would probably spend $2300 and get one made really well. You can see this right now. Go into an electronics store. Look at a standard DVD player. The kind you connect to a TV. Look how it's made. Lift it up - how heavy does it feel? Look at the remote and the connectors on the back. Does that feel like quality? Now do the same thing with a DVD recorder (also, the video sort, not the PC sort).
I can't live without mine. m100, bought remanufactured at (gah!) Fry's. For $50. Beat that!
Suggestion to all who are experiencing "insensitive" areas on the screen: run the digitizer calibrator every so often. Sometimes the digitizer drifts off of alignment and you need to set it right.
Annoyance: the flip top broke off very early in the game. Hoping to replace it but since I have the thing in a Targus case it's merely an annoyance, not a problem.
I use the onscreen keyboard almost exclusively to input data. I've gotten pretty fast at hunt-and-tap. I might get a plug-in keyboard from eBay someday but hunt-and-tap works for me. The "v" in the Graffiti alphabet always threw me, so screw that.
Overall the PalmOS feels like I'm back in front of a MacSE. Same black-and-white graphics, similar feel in the apps.
I'm looking forward eventually to something better...maybe a Handspring is in my future. Until then, my m100 and I are inseparable. Look for the Mahjongg freeware game on www.palm.com...it is maddeningly addictive.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
So much for the folks saying "you get what you pay for".
This is the truth. Sony sucks. Sony, because of its purchase of Columbia Pictures, is also an MPAA signatory. Think about this when you "ooh!" and "ahh" at the latest Sony toy. Buy a Clie and make Hillary Rosen and Don Jack Valenti happy. "But it's so shiny and cute!" you say? Enjoy your shiny, cute DRM locked-down PC once the Senator From Disney passes the Son of DMCA. I know I'm a broken record on this, but it seems like nobody fsckn gets the point.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
Is your Palm a worthless piece of junk then?
I know, send it to China!
graspee
Speaking of poor quality electronics, just an "FYI" for anyone considering getting a Panasonic Gigarange telephone. I have had one, a former roomate had a different model with answering machine, and my uncle had one. ALL have died within a year, mine within 5 months. These are extremely expensive phones with great range and sound quality but a very short lifespan.
If you get one, be sure to pick it up from a place like Best Buy and get the extended warranty! You have been warned!
Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes. --E. W. Dijkstra
That's a firmware problem. Since the Palm OS on the m100 and m105 is in ROM, not EEPROM, the thing is basically fux0red and needs to be sent back.
The first m100 I got did that. The second one was the keeper.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
In defence of palm, I think we should remember how much abuse palms take. I have a Vx that has worked constantly. It sometimes is in my pocket, in my hot car in summer, dropped and and otherwise abused. We take a bit for granted, I think, on how much sh*t we give our little pda's and expect them to work perfectly all the time.
Ever noticed how computers seem to crash more when you seriously kicking them around (as opposed to just using word)?
Just a thought....
-Sean
I've pretty much decided to go with some other company when the V finally gives up the ghost. I'm still trying to decide what to get.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Casio appears to have worked out how to make pocket calculators that are both cheap and reliable. If Palm can't work out how to make its products more reliable they have big problems. This is not the only quality problem I have heard reported.
The real problem is that palm has done very little of significance since the Palm VII came out almost three years ago. All the interesting stuff on PalmOS has come from Sony, Handspring and the cellular companies. Some day the dragonball processor Palms will be on the store shelves, however this is likely to be too little too late.
Palm appear to have an Apple complex. They believe they know what customers want better than their customers. Problem there is that such companies have a habit of getting overly ideological about irrelevances.
I recently acquired a Zaurus 5000, even though the device is first generation it has a much more useful feature set than the Palm. There are plenty of things wrong with it (memory management is hopeless, a 32Mb machine should be able to run a Web browser without any difficulty, the machines we used to design the Web all had less memory.), however the rate of progress has been pretty good. They fixed the problem with the image viewer that meant that it could now view pictures from 2 Megapixel cameras pretty quick.
I suspect that the Zaurus and PocketPC lines will both develop quickly because they are in direct competition.
Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
I have had problems with Palm too....
One day, while trying to take notes in class, I dropped my Palm IIIxe on the floor and broke the screen. (Whooooops.) Because I had the Palm folding keyboard that worked with the III series but not the newer models with their redesigned cases, I opted to pay Palm $100 to fix my unit rather than to go buy a new one. So I sent my device back, and a week later I get the exchange unit. I then threw some batteries in it and stick it in my backpack, and then when I go to use it two days later it doesn't turn on because the batteries are dead. I figured that the case I had it in was pushing one of the buttons and didn't really think much of it at the time, but after several more sets of dead batteries I did some testing and found that the device would run down batteries in 12 hours while sitting turned off in a drawer. Hard resets and a different brand of battery didn't fix it, so off it went back to Palm for another exchange...
One week later, the second replacement arrives. In go the batteries, and I even install a fresh copy of the Hotsync software for Windows and sync with that instead of using KPilot to restore my old data. Same problem - 12 hours later, turned off in a drawer, dead batteries. So I call up Palm again and explain my situation, and they say to do another exchange, and when I asked what I could do if the new unit had the same problem they told me I could call corporate headquarters "using the number from the website." Thankfully, the third replacement worked.
So in the end, in order to have a $100 repair performed on my Palm, I had to pay the $100, plus $5 in tax, $10 three times for return shipping and $8 for a 12 pack of batteries from the rat shack. Total of $142. Plus it took a month and three trips to the post office. Rather inconvienient, and not exactly a ringing endorsement of Palm's quality control...
Cheap equals cheap
So if I spend $150 and buy something, I should not expect it to work? My $150 TV should start flipping channels by itself and maybe the $150 stereo should shut off or only play half the CD's I put in it?
Comparatively, the M10x series are cheaper than the M50x series. But, this is a $150 piece of electronics, not a Cracker-Jack toy. By spending less money, you should expect fewer features, not that the advertised features won't work, and the device doesn't have basic functionality.
It should also be mentioned that on this planet, $150 for something the size, shape and apparantly the functionality of a PopTart, is not "cheap".
Palm devices (and Handspring, btw) are manufactured by a company called Flextronics, one of the big 4 in outsourced manufacturing. Palm devices are manufactured in Flex Malaysia and in Guadalajara, Mexico. Flextronics sources material and handles end of line manufacturing quality. The only exception to this for Palm was the VIIx was made in a Flex facility in Fremont, I don't know if this applies to the 705.
In any case, where many people rail about the quality of Company X's products, these days it is highly likely that Company X didn't have anything to do with making the product other than designing it. And in this age of "badge engineering" of electronics, that's not even necessarily true, as someone mentioned with the IBM WorkPad. The objective of outsourcing the manufacturing function is ultimately managing the companies stock price, not pleasing the customer. By offloading headcount and very expensive capital facilities like factories, companies try to make their return on invested capital look better.
However, someone other than Company X now actually controls the customer's "out of box" experience. If they do this poorly, they eventually will have to eat the cost of returns and perhaps lose Company X's manufacturing business, but the loss of future sales caused by the customer's poor experience falls on Company X. And the contract manufacturer is large and has many other companies to live on, while Company X probably has a relatively small set of products, which now may have acquired a reputation for poor quality. Company X's sales drop and their stock (symbol: PALM) drops below $2...
Ultimately the consumer is the loser, since as I mentioned, it is possible that a product area has ALL of the branded companies using contract manufacturing, possibly even the SAME manufacturer.
I believe that using contract manufacturing for consumer systems ultimately is a loser for the companies involved since it is very difficult to avoid large batches of poor quality goods from reaching customers. So if, for example Sony, apart from being innovative with its designs, still does its own manufacturing, I think it will win share down the road, while companies that hit lower price points with inferior product will be eliminated, unless they can figure out how to create "disposable" products and do the heavy marketing needed to establish such a concept.
C'mon, who buy palm nowadays? They are overpriced
and lack features. I give them the credit for
starting the PDA industry but most people get
now Sony or Handspring.
Many, many people have this problem. Nobody has a fix. The Palm V digitizer bug is pretty well known, but Palm will not acknowledge that there is a problem. The OS upgrade has not helped.
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
I love my handsprings (this is the 3rd one i've owned) but I have definitely had problems with my Prisms.
The first Prism I had crashed a lot - hard reset-requiring crashes that made me reload all my data. It got so bad, I bought JBBackup so that I could schedule automatic backups to my 8mb Flash Module every 6 hours.
The buttons seem to be made poorly. The power button on my original Prism stopped working - the only way to turn it on was using an app hardkey.
I sent the Prism back for warranty, and got another. It didn't crash any more, but several months later, the buttons were broken again. Of course now it is beyond warranty period so I am screwed. Also, the Address Book key doesn't work either. Very annoying.
I love the device. Super expandable, nice brilliant display (much better than m505's dim, almost color-less display). But the buttons should have been made better.
Now I have a Sony VAIO PCG-XR1G. It was the top of the line when I bought it. After using it for six months, I started getting BIOS errors warning me of imbeeding hard disk failure. I backed everything up when I got it to boot, then took it in. Of course, it booted fine every time I tried to explain the problem to the dealer. So after it really failed a week later, they took it and sent it in to Sony.
Sony replaced the disk controller, but not the hard disk. They did restore the pre-installed Windows against my wishes, despite detailed instructions on how to login and shutdown FreeBSD. If they'd have replaced the hard disk, as the BIOS was telling me was necessary, I wouldn't have minded, but...
So, the machine worked find for another six months. Then the same BIOS errors started coming up. Again, I backed up everything and brought it in for repair. This time the warrantee was one month expired and I had to pay for a new hard disk. But the worst part was to follow.
After another month, the "R" key on the keyboard started getting hard to press. Also, the right mouse button wasn't always working. The mouse pad quickly degraded to where I had to buy an external mouse. Other keys slowly degraded and, being a touch typist, many tasks started to become frustrating - like logging in to other servers without any "*" echos. I'm seriously considering getting a USB keyboard for my notebook computer!
It just seems to me that Sony products have some sort of self distruct mechanism built in to go off right after their warrantee expires. I need to gaman with this keyboard for another half year or so. But I'm definately not getting a Sony computer again. No matter how good they look.
I have owned my palm for 1 1/2 years and I had no problems with mine at all. Very reliable. 2 megs is fine for a calender and a few apps I have downloaded from the net. Anyway I have seen my father's expensive palm V die and his palm VII freeze up very badly to the point where the batteries had to be taken out while my el-cheapo palm m100 has been fine. So much for the idea that you get what you pay for. My only complaint is the cheap thick plastic used. I have dropped it at least 3 times so far and it has not broken once but its uncomfortable and thick. The outer screen cover came off about the first month since I owned it but other then that I had nothing but good luck.
.com crash many companies started looking for ways to reduce costs. Perhaps palm decided to try a cheaper manufactor to build them. At least mine made from the pre-.bomb is fine.
The problems many may have could be due to a specific manufactoring plant. This would explain while most have no problems at all but a few do. If the product was poorly designed like then everyone would be having trouble. After the
http://saveie6.com/
This is quite interesting. People generally buy cheap technology. Those that don't, buy sophisticated, cutting edge technology. Both cutting edge and cheap technology is riddled with poor quality. Will people ever learn?
If you spend those extra bucks on upgrading your gigahertz celeron from 128 megs of ram to 512 megs of ram, it will last performance-wise for one or two more years. But Mr. Salesman doesn't tell Mr. Doe that. He just smiles when Mr. Doe opts for the cheaper system, and says "Come back soon" with a diabolical grin as Mr. Doe leaves.
Frankly, selling a gigahertz computer with 128 megs of ram is disgraceful. Really. It will just barely perform well enough when the customer tries it in the store. When the customer comes home, runs ICQ and an email client in addition to a web browser and Microsoft Office, it will kneel. Had the customer spent an extra hundred or so dollars on more RAM, things would be much smoother. Until the computer business cleans this up, I would advocate that some standard benchmarks be developed and mandated to be displayed with price, so that the customer can themselves see how much oomph they get for their buck.
That was a bit of a sidetrack.
The point is that you have big corporations with really smart people, little accountability and large resources attempting to make money. They do so by selling products. Do you really expect the average buyer to fully understand the pros and cons of the complex products we develop?
I personally don't. It's about time we developed standards for QA, along with ethical guidelines for the stuff we sell. Basic things like "is this useful?" and "does it work?" are forgotten in the rush for dough. In addition to listening to customer feedback (both in cash and writing), we should ourselves figure out the premises we compete on. By cutting quality, and giving the cost cut to the customer, you're doing the customer a huge disservice. Please stop.
Stop the brainwash
Palm devices have a half life of about 6 months for me, but they're too damn useful to live without, so I keep buying 'em.
The buttons would probably last longer if I didn't play Galax.
I play Nerd-Folk!
By should I mean "shouldn't". :)
We're on the road to Tycho.