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Keeping Secrets in Hardware: Xbox Case Study

BS405397 writes "Here is the just released MIT whitepaper on the security holes in the MS X-Box, and for those who are interested, opens up the X-Box pretty nicely." Update: 06/04 17:13 GMT by M : The server appears to be down at the moment. There is a copy of the paper mirrored here. Reuters and other news outlets have now picked up the story, two days after Slashdot.

87 of 306 comments (clear)

  1. DMCA... by Mr.+Smoove · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Doesn't this violate the DMCA?

    --
    Mr. Smoove
    1. Re:DMCA... by Darth_brooks · · Score: 5, Funny

      Doesn't this violate the DMCA?

      Doesn't everything?

      --
      There are some people that if they don't know, you can't tell 'em.
    2. Re:DMCA... by dfn5 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Then why wouldn't DeCSS fall into that category? I'd say that was a pretty good research project.

      --
      -- Thou hast strayed far from the path of the Avatar.
    3. Re:DMCA... by Alsee · · Score: 2

      >>Doesn't this violate the DMCA?
      Doesn't everything?


      No. Chewing bubblegum doesn't.
      Ummm, I don't think.
      Uhhhh...
      Crap. I'll check with my lawyer and get back to you...

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  2. Updates? by Kizzle · · Score: 2

    When the xbox first came out I wondered about the security holes it would have once they rolled out the internet service. Does anyone know if it is setup in a way that it can receive software updates?

  3. Mirror and guys website by Angry+Black+Man · · Score: 5, Informative

    Here is the guys website (bunnie), with a ton of other hacking information not in the whitepaper.

    He also has an alternative link to the paper.

    --
    the byproduct of years of oppression by the white man
  4. Security holes? In a Microsoft product? by Moosifer · · Score: 5, Funny

    Inconceivable!

    1. Re:Security holes? In a Microsoft product? by vile7707 · · Score: 5, Funny

      You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

    2. Re:Security holes? In a Microsoft product? by Cheeze · · Score: 2

      Product? In a Microsoft security hole?

      --
      Why read the article when I can just make up a snap judgement?
    3. Re:Security holes? In a Microsoft product? by motardo · · Score: 2

      it's all about andre the giant :)

  5. With Microsoft's permission by damieng · · Score: 5, Informative

    I quote from a posting to XBOXHACKER that quotes "I did the work in february, but it took about three months to get it positioned and cleared with both MIT and Microsoft."

    I guess that means the DMCA was not violated although the posting mentions that Microsoft intend on addressing these 'holes' in future revisions of XBOX hardware.

    --
    [)amien
  6. Intermission by cymraeg · · Score: 2, Funny

    While the rest of the world waits for the site to come available...

    Let's all go to the lobby,
    Let's all got to the lobby,
    Let's all go to the lobby...
    To get ourselves a drink!

    --
    you don't have to outrun the bear, just the slowest person in your group.
    1. Re:Intermission by denzo · · Score: 2

      ... and this is where our cars start singing, "let's all go to Chevron..."

  7. Better Ways to Hack it?! by IronTek · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Hopefully, this is yet one more step in fully hacking the X-Box (can't tell because the site's been /.ed)

    And I don't meant the usual Playstation-like hacking. I couldn't care less about not having to pay for games...

    What I can't wait for are things like a DiVX player (DivX movies on TV!), Linux -> and with it all those wonderful applications, DVD Movies without the hardware adapter, etc. and all of this for only 200 bucks!

    Many Dreamcasts were sold because of their hacking potential...just imagine what an X-Box is capable of! This, more than any reason, is why I'm hoping the X-Box pulls through and "makes it" among the video game platforms...

    1. Re:Better Ways to Hack it?! by sean23007 · · Score: 2

      I doubt it is Microsoft that would be supplying the patches.

      --

      Lack of eloquence does not denote lack of intelligence, though they often coincide.
    2. Re:Better Ways to Hack it?! by Com2Kid · · Score: 2

      For less than $200, get a video-out card for your computer.

      Your computer can already play Divx 3, 4, and 5, as well as play mp3s and MAME roms.
      Its just wasteful to go and buy a whole other set for mere convenience.

      Besides, you know the software on your computer will work, and I doubt you would want to have to apply numerous M$ 'patches' to get a simple Divx player to work right.


      This is what I do;

      $200? Heh.

      More like $20. :P For a nice BT chipset one, DeScaler rocks! :)

      Too bad about the GameCube though, that thing is SO tiny it is amazing, I thought the carrying handle was just for kicks but nope, it is definitely fully functional! Ah, definitely not hackable though, unless somebody finds some way to get it to read minicds or such. ^_^

  8. MIT slashdotted? by antirename · · Score: 2

    That's pretty impressive, guys. How big is that PDF anyway? I timed out with 7 replies showing.

  9. Re:it's a console by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    First of all, do you spumrags even bother trying to read the links or getting some context before you go off half-cocked? Obviously not. Your message would be better informed if it said "Frost Pist Bitches!"

    Second, it should be obvious to anyone with 2 working braincells that the security problem facing the XBox is not network security but instead security against the local user. Particularlly, preventing them from booting non-approved software.

  10. No, it's legal by Animats · · Score: 5, Informative
    Note that the paper discusses his consultation with the Electronic Frontier Foundation's lawyers.

    Reverse engineering is legal under most circumstances. Prohibiting it would create a new form of intellectual property, which, unlike patents, would not have to be disclosed. Trade secrets are limited in scope; trade secret law is mostly about disclosure by people authorized to know the trade secret.

    1. Re:No, it's legal by Nihilanth · · Score: 3, Insightful

      the difference between something being "legal" and something being "legal, but pisses off a major corporation" is a contrast becoming starkly clear lately.

  11. well by martissimo · · Score: 3, Insightful

    the "security holes" this paper are about refer to the authors techniques for breaking the protection of the "secret" boat loader that MS employs.

    it's just his take on where the security could have been improved. all in all MS looks to have relied on the security through obscurity approach (hiding the true boot loader behind a dummy boot loader), just that their obscurity fails when you monitor traffic over a bus with a simple card.

    PS: dreamcasts and playstations have always been hackable, as is the xbox, no real surprise there.

    1. Re:well by warpSpeed · · Score: 2
      "secret" boat loader


      Is that what MS uses to load its software? So you get a boat load of bloat... But this is hardly a secret.

    2. Re:well by DickBreath · · Score: 5, Funny

      "secret" boat loader

      This was obviously a typo. I think he meant to say: secret bloat loader.

      --

      I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
  12. Re:Security holes in a gaming console? by clownshoe · · Score: 3, Interesting
    But what are you trying to secure on an Xbox really? Your saved games?

    I have two answers to this.
    1) Sure. Would you want some script kiddie to delete a saved game you've spent many hours working on? While it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, it would be frustrating.

    2) Microsoft intends the XBox to be the first of a larger presence in the family home. Imagine when everything in your house runs through the XBox (or similiar device) as MS ultimately envisions. Would you want B1FF to be able to get control over your home security system? Your climate control? Banking info? I wouldn't.

  13. Modularity and excessive code... by tandr · · Score: 2, Funny

    I like this part about MS guy:

    The speaker at this talk also indicated that the kernel on the Xbox is a much-stripped-down Win2k derivative (from 12 MB to around 23kB).

    (from their website)

    1. Re:Modularity and excessive code... by Moonshadow · · Score: 5, Funny
      stripped-down Win2k derivative (from 12 MB to around 23kB).

      What'd they do, remove IE?

    2. Re:Modularity and excessive code... by Moonshadow · · Score: 2

      Thanks. I've seen so many versions of it, I just picked one :)

  14. More from author on MSFT by Angry+Black+Man · · Score: 4, Informative

    He frequents the Xbox hacker msesage boards. Heres what else he had to say about Microsoft in this post...

    "To answer some specific questions:

    no, I will not publish the encryption key or the boot block. That's Microsoft copyright material, and I respect their copyright.

    Microsoft is not particularly happy about the paper, but they seemed to concede that well, reverse engineering is protected by law, so there's nothing they can do about it. Let's hope they don't change their opinion...they've been known to go back on their word before. "

    also, from his website...

    "You are actually allowed by law to reverse engineer copyrighted code so long as it is necessary to discover the ideas or functional elements behind the code (still, I'm not allowed to post copyrighted code for free distribution). Hey, microsoft...what are the ideas and functional elements behind your BIOS ROM? ... hmm...patent search turns up nil on the Xbox...guess we'll just have to reverse engineer it. (FTR, Nintendo has patented what looks to be the entirety of the N64 console, thus perchance making reverse engineering an N64 illegal--not yet court tested.)"

    --
    the byproduct of years of oppression by the white man
    1. Re:More from author on MSFT by Henry+V+.009 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Since copyright has historically covered things that couldn't be generated automatically, I wonder if this guy could publish an algorithm to produce the key? (Besides, it should be short enough for fair use, anyway.)

    2. Re:More from author on MSFT by ivan256 · · Score: 2

      It's necissary if you want to create a compatible and competing unit, or if you want to create compatable but competing software, which was completely allowed last I checked.

    3. Re:More from author on MSFT by danro · · Score: 2

      How else would you run Linux on it?
      duh!

      --

      "First lesson," Jon said. "Stick them with the pointy end."
    4. Re:More from author on MSFT by axlrosen · · Score: 2

      Since copyright has historically covered things that couldn't be generated automatically

      Huh? Where'd you get this from? If you can generate a key automatically then you can generate a book like Jurassic Park automatically, so that doesn't sound right to me.

      (Besides, it should be short enough for fair use, anyway.)

      Length is only one of the considerations to apply when deciding if something falls under fair use. Other factors might tip the scale one way or the other. Besides, I think it's more the percentage of the excerpt that matters, not the absolute length. If you publish the whole key, that's 100%, so fair use probably doesn't apply.

  15. This means... by Drakker · · Score: 3, Funny

    ...that we will be able to play NetHack on the xbox?

  16. Some XBox Hacking Links by gagravarr · · Score: 5, Informative
    For those of you just getting into XBox hacking, you might want to check out the following:
    --
    This post will enter the public domain 70 years after my death, unless Disney buys another extension.
  17. Re:Lame and Dumb by brooks_talley · · Score: 5, Informative

    Yeah, who would want a $200 general purpose computer wiuth built in ethernet and DVD capability? I mean, what are you going to do, get a keyboard working and have a $200 Linux machine that's comprable to most $800 boxen? Or get it to run DivX movies? Or network 5 of them into a $1000 Beowulf cluster?

    It's not a gaming system. It's a computer that's been artificially limited to gaming. People want to break into it to remove those limitations, so they can have a very cheap, fairly powerful and flexible computer system.

    The article -- the whole console hacking phenomenon -- is not about people breaking into your Xbox of ther internet. If you had read the article, you would have seen that it's about hacking the box to be able to boot custom code. There's no question of "reinstalling a few games" unless someone breaks into your house, reprograms the flash ROM in your Xbox, and turns it into a Linux machine.

    -b

  18. This entire article is a troll! (in a way...) by cscx · · Score: 4, Interesting

    OK, I've skimmed the PDF, and while the words "security holes in the XBox" in the article may lead you to think about traditional software buffer-overflow-I've-r00ted-your-box types of security holes... this article is about HARDWARE!! The PDF talks about hacking the hardware and getting around the encryption on the bootloader to be able to load your OS of choice, for example.

    Meanwhile I'm reading posts from people who are nearly soiling themselves afraid to plug their XBox into a network for fear of being r00ted. What a joke. I bet when michael saw the words "XBox" and 'security hole' in the same sentence, he became so excited and nervous that he could hardly move his finger to click the button on the mouse. Sheesh.

  19. Thumbs up? by handsomepete · · Score: 5, Funny

    I got a grudging thumbs up, so to speak, from Microsoft on my Xbox reverse engineering work

    I think I'd much rather he post what must've been a very entertaining conversation with a Microsoft spokesperson than the bios to the XBox.

    1. Re:Thumbs up? by agdv · · Score: 4, Funny
      Weird... that guy sounds exactly like the guy I talked to when my copy of XP wouldn't activate.


      They're building an army of clones. You hadn't heard?

  20. Re:Security holes in a gaming console? by ClickNMix · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I wasn't aware security was a big issue in gaming consoles.

    It never has been, because:

    a) Most systems only kept data related to the game in a very limited space. (On a memory card say or a cartridge its self in the past) - the X-Box is fitted with a hard drive, so there is access to alot of data beyond the scope of individual games since all the data is likely to be in one place.

    b) Once you hook something up to the internet, (Which the X-Box plans to do, or at least a network of some kind) then it opens the door to the data stored on your system. This also means that as well as game data, users are likely to at the very least have emails stored on their systems.

    --
    I saw the light at the end of the tunnel... But it was just someone with a flashlight bringing more work.
  21. Re:Security holes in a gaming console? by gid · · Score: 2

    In case you didn't know already, MS is selling Xbox's at a huge loss. Much to my suprise, MS did not get to it's current position by losing money like this. They're planning on making up the lost money by having a sucessful console that sells tons of games and makes up the money there (Sega anyone?), so I believe the "security holes" might be referring to little snafu's so you can put a different OS on it. Because we all know different OS won't run the games. Every time someone buys an Xbox hoping to turn it into a hella cheap PC, MS loses their money on that machine for good, because that person won't be buying any games for it.

    A lot of the security features talk about rom encryption, flashing it with a new bios, accessing the hard drives, etc. All of these thing make it more difficult to turn it into a cheap PC, and supports my theory as stated above.

  22. Abstract by Hast · · Score: 4, Insightful
    A lot of people seem to belive that it's about network security. It is about hacking the boot procedure for the X-Box. This can be grasped just by reading the abstract to the paper.

    Abstract

    This paper discusses the hardware foundations of the cryptosystem employed
    by the Xbox TM video game console from Microsoft. A secret boot block over-lay
    is buried within a system ASIC. This secret boot block decrypts and verifies
    portions of an external FLASH-type ROM. The presence of the secret boot block
    is camouflaged by a decoy boot block in the external ROM. The code contained
    within the secret boot block is transferred to the CPU in the clear over a set of
    high-speed busses where it can be extracted using simple custom hardware. The
    paper concludes with recommendations for improving the Xbox security system.
    One lesson of this study is that the use of a high-performance bus alone is not a
    sufficient security measure, given the advent of inexpensive, fast rapid prototyping
    services and high-performance FPGAs.

    So no need to worry about DDoS or lost savegames. This is about playing unauthorized games, making a DiVX player etc.
    1. Re:Abstract by tshak · · Score: 2

      A lot of people seem to belive that it's about network security. It is about hacking the boot procedure for the X-Box.

      Correct. And when did this become a "security hole" - oh, it makes people bash MS. Nevermind, carry on.

      --

      There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
    2. Re:Abstract by fferreres · · Score: 2

      If make an XBox game and want to play on my XBox, is it ok? What do I buy, the hardware or only a permanent "lease" to play Microsoft approved games? Your answer is welcomed :)

      --
      unfinished: (adj.)
    3. Re:Abstract by Hast · · Score: 2

      The boot encryption block is really there in order to let Microsoft control which games are available for their console. They are more interested in getting money from producers of games than from stopping you from playing a non-licenced game. Naturally if everyone were to play using hacked machines than that would be bad for Microsoft, and so they added the encryption/authentication to stop that from happening.

      Naturally stuff like this will undoubtedly pave the way for "X-Box" demo's within the demo scene. That would rock! (Because those guys can really do some neat stuff.)

      And from his (The guy who wrote the paper.) website it's clear that he has contacted Microsoft and he has been given a go ahead on publishing the paper. So it's unlikely that it will be "foxed" at least at this stage.

  23. Re:Lame and Dumb by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 2
    Indeed, I read somewhere that web hosters were loving the idea - "So you're telling me you get Apache on a box with built in ethernet and a 10gig disk, with Linux for $200, and it costs that little because BILL GATES PAYS FOR HALF OF IT?!?! Let me at 'em!"

    Let's face it, who could resist the idea of getting a cool computer while at the same time losing Microsoft money? It's a fab idea!

  24. Re:Security holes in a gaming console? by maikeru · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Security is a huge issue in gaming consoles, particularly as they become similar in capability and more competitve with each other.

    It's widely agreed that the making or breaking point for any console is the software library available for it. Console makers therefore spend a lot of time, money and effort attempting to win over software developers to their platform.

    And regardless of how enticing an offer the developer receives, developers need to sell software to stay in business. The main advantage of the console market (as opposed to the PC gaming market) is that the platforms are closed and proprietary, and (ideally) make piracy virtually impossible without modifying the hardware. The main problem with the security holes isn't that malicious users can compromise a user's data; the problem is that even casual users will be able to pirate games.

    This prospect scares the living hell out of developers, and rightfully so. Witness the demise of the Sega Dreamcast, which occurred a surprisingly short time after someone figured out how to boot CD-R's on the console.

    The bottom line is that developers won't produce for a platform that facilitates piracy. That is very bad news for Microsoft, particularly in light of their bleeding money out of each console they sell.

  25. In other news, ... by Tony-A · · Score: 3, Funny

    Microsoft, not content with just SOFTWARE security holes, has now moved on to HARDWARE security holes.

  26. very interesting by Dr.+Awktagon · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I read that article and found it very interesting. It seems there's always a weakness in any security system, and a clever person with time on their hands can find it.

    But then it hits me: this "security" is to keep THE OWNER, the PAYING CUSTOMER, out of the product he bought. This "security" doesn't protect my family, me, or my possessions from absolutely anything. It serves no purpose except to make work for somebody at Microsoft and then somebody at MIT. If they left it out, they'd save both parties a lot of effort. I'm sure someone will build on this article and figure out how to easily run arbitrary code on the Xbox, and so the security will be a total waste. So why is it there?

  27. Re:it's a console by ivan256 · · Score: 2

    I would think that they'd want security in there to protect their trade secrets. If information like this gets out (oops) then people will be able to make unlicenced games, and that would trash Microsoft's console business model.

  28. Re:Cool by pjrc · · Score: 5, Informative
    I feel like a little reality check is in order:

    Does this mean I can hack into .. and upload a patch to display ... characters as completely nude, full-figured women?

    No, but it does mean you can fabricate a little circuit board and solder it to tiny wires on the xbox, connect that to a FPGA and custom-program the FPGA to implement data collecting hardware (including a lot of hand-layout effort to make the FPGA able to collect at 200 MHz). It means you can implement a little state machine also in the FPGA to begin collecting at the right time, ignore a false reset pulse, and tag all collected data with sequence numbers of how many clock cycles elapsed between each data transfer and the CPU reset.

    It also means you can spend a lot of time to do statistical analysis on the data and compare to patterns from the flash rom (which you presumably already extracted and read with your EPROM programmer). It means that once you've at least figured out which wires were which bits, you can begin wading through millions of data transfers and try to reconstruct an image of the code the CPU executed.

    It means you can disassemble that code (remember, found from analyzing millions of bus transfers) and recognize that it implements RC-4 decryption. It means you can write a "brute force" attack to guess all possible 16-byte patters from the image you extracted and see if any of them decrypts the flash rom data to something other than white noise.

    It means that, after all that, you have the algorithm and key used to decrypt the bootloader in the flash rom... and then you can write your own bootloader (by extracting the flash rom chip and changing its contents with an EPROM programmer) and make the xbox run your own code.

    The author did mention that Microsoft put test points on the board to access the flash rom, so instead of physically removing the flash rom, you could build a "bed-of-nails" test fixture that you'd just place the xbox circuit board into to reprogram the flash rom (don't forget to design your own EPROM programmer in this process).

    But as others have pointed out, the author has been in contact with Microsoft and they are aware of the problem, and they intend to fix it in future revisions to the xbox hardware.

    So if you wanna pop up nudie pictures in the middle of someone's game, you'd better get started soldering now. Even after you do all this, you'd barely have your foot in the door. You'll need to do a massive reverse engineering job on the bootloader, and then the rest of the flash rom (which is presumably part of the win2k closed-source kernel). Somewhere along the way, you'll learn about the xbox hardware and MAYBE find a game-independent way to overlay some graphics on the screen. Maybe you'll even find some exploits in the kernel itself, maybe?

    But to start, you MUST pull the flash rom chip and reprogram it with your own code. Better hurry before Microsoft changes the secret bootloader or even the hardware itself, now that they know of the weakness.

  29. Site back up by mindhive · · Score: 2, Informative

    I'm one of the sysadmins at the AI lab - we had a power shutdown in our building last night through much of today, but the site is back up and ready to get slashdotted.

  30. Not there yet by Animats · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Note that even after all this, the guy isn't even close to being able to make a disk that will boot on an unmodified XBox. Or a mod that doesn't require soldering.

    He now understands the boot process, and can mess with it via hardware mods. But he has only the decryption key, which is the public key of the pair. To make a bootable disc, you need the encrypting (private) key, which is nowhere in the XBox. That key probably exists only in a vault in Redmond.

    I don't really care all that much about the XBox, but if the RIAA and MPAA have their way, all audio and video equipment will be protected like this.

    1. Re:Not there yet by nick+this · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Correct me if I'm wrong, but the article states that:

      1. The bootloader and kernel are stored in flash.
      2. The bootloader is RC-4 encrypted (symmetric, not public/private keypair)
      3. The flash can be reprogrammed either by desoldering the flash, like bunny did, or by using what he calls a "bed-of-nails" jig. (I assume this is merely contact points to connect the test points on the board).

      The RC-4 key is now known, so it appears to me that a custom bootloader (and kernel) can be flashed on the box that will allow unsigned code to run without soldering or expensive equipment.

      Probably the path that will be taken is that a booting linux kernel will be developed using the mod chips that are reported to be on the way, then, once drivers and an xbox kernel are developed, a bootloader will be written to boot it directly off CD-R/RW or HDD. Supposedly the xbox is kinda flakey about reading CR-R's, but DVD+RW won't present a problem.

      I wouldn't be surprised to see a bootloader that would either boot into the xbox or off an untrusted CD or DVD.

      I expect to see a cheap and easy kit for booting linux on xbox in less than six months. Console DivX/MP3/Mame player, here we come!

    2. Re:Not there yet by prockcore · · Score: 2

      "But he has only the decryption key, which is the public key of the pair. To make a bootable disc, you need the encrypting (private) key, which is nowhere in the XBox. That key probably exists only in a vault in Redmond."

      You have it backwards. The private key decrypts.. the public key encrypts. He has the private key. And you can derive the public key from the private key.

  31. Why the security on a game console? by A+nonymous+Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I guess I am naive here. What is the point of making the X-box or any other game console hard to hack?

    I used to believe the old saw that compared game consoles to razors; lose money on the console, make up for it on the games. But I read something recently which seemed (to me) to prove that everyone except M$ was making money on consoles too. So although it might make sense for M$ to prevent hacking for use as other than a game console, why would others do so?

    Is it to prevent people from playing ill-gotten copies of games?

    Is it to prevent cheating while playing a game?

    Is it to prevent reverse engineering of a game?

    I guess I just don't get it!

    1. Re:Why the security on a game console? by fferreres · · Score: 2

      There are two answers. One is a fair one. Another is not fair and it's even anti-competitive.

      1- To prevent piracy
      2- To stop you using the system in legal ways but which do not follow their "targeted use".

      #2 basically means that they sell at a loss and compensate with overpriced games. But if you want to use it as a web server, their entire "sell hardware at a loss" doesn't work anymore and they have to start charging what the equipment really costs. And then they cannot sell enough consoles and cannot dominate the market (and thus, no good games produced and never a profit).

      --
      unfinished: (adj.)
    2. Re:Why the security on a game console? by Patrick · · Score: 2
      a single XBow costs about $300 to make.

      More like $450-$475 from everything I've read. Microsoft wasn't even close to breaking even when Xboxes cost $300. At $200, they're losing even more. Amortized development costs and falling hardware costs may have made the consoles a bit cheaper to make, but probably not much. The XBox console itself will never be a profit center for MS.

  32. Re:A little ironic, but... by TRACK-YOUR-POSITION · · Score: 2
    I keep wondering if an Xbox with keyboard, mouse & montior, running Linux, might not make a good, inexpensive classroom computer? I mean, the box is already rad-hardened against hyperactive game-playing children, right?

    Well, for $400, you can get a Playstation 2 with hard drive, mouse, keyboard, ethernet, and an adapter to work with SOME vga monitors, and a copy of ps2linux. http://www.playstation2-linux.com/

  33. He's almost correct... by Krokus · · Score: 2, Funny

    From the paper:

    "...it is an error to assume that a secret, distributed along with the information it guards, is never revealed."

    I don't know about that. It seems to have worked for the Word file format.

  34. Re:Lame and Dumb by Alsee · · Score: 2

    Then you have the marketing figures that say that these boxes are flying off of the shelves.

    Yeah, but microsoft only makes money on the games / online service. Mircosoft may hype the sales, but gaming companies are still going to notice that the software isn't selling.

    -

    --
    - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  35. Oh no! by DarkHelmet · · Score: 3, Funny

    My XBox web server is vulnerable? I guess I'll just have to download a patch from windows update!

    --
    /^[A-Z0-9._%+-]+@[A-Z0-9.-]+\.[A-Z]{2,4}$/i
  36. None of the above... by oGMo · · Score: 2

    Actually, while you're right... everyone (besides MS) does make money off their consoles... they also make a lot of money off something else: licensing. In fact, while you can make a pretty penny off your console, the main draw is that you get an even larger percentage from the license royalties off every game your console sells. You only sell one console per person. You sell lots of games.

    Naturally, if everyone could write code for a console and burn their own CDs or DVDs, large game houses would have little reason to buy licensed development kits and publishing contracts with their respective console manufacturer, and thus you lose a lot of your revenue.

    Interestingly enough, though, in the old days, unlicensed games happened every so often. I recall that Taito reverse-engineered the NES cartridge and put out their own games...

    --

    Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage

  37. X-Box unit loss not major by mughi · · Score: 2
    In case you didn't know already, MS is selling Xbox's at a huge loss.

    It might not be as much as you think.Microsoft recently told shareholders that the X-Box was just only losing 20% of what Sony was initially losing on the PS2. A friend put that to end up somewhere in the $20-$30 range. ...And the SEC tends to get a bit grumpy with companies that mislead investors...

    1. Re:X-Box unit loss not major by mughi · · Score: 2
      I find it very difficult to believe that they're losing only 20% as much as Sony was per machine.

      Well, my friends are usually very up on their gaming info, take going to E3 very seriously, have PS2, X-Box, GameCube, PS2 Linux kit, etc. They were doing all their stats carefully, etc. Part of it is probably due to Microsoft planing things, leveraging component manufacturers against each other, and moving production from Mexico to China (Aside from having to move their plants to China, Flextronics is getting squezed out of being the exclusive manufacturer).

      Of course, there's always the Microsoft mastery of double-speak wich might involve several linguists and legal experts poring over the actual MS statements just to be sure...

  38. You kinda miss the point. by Erris · · Score: 2
    So we are a long way from using he XBox as a cheap PC.

    Hopefully, you are a long way from wanting to do such a thing. For $100 or so, you can have a nice Athlon mobo with a 700MHz processor. Buying a used system would be even cheaper. Of course, any other option would be much less encumbered by silly things M$ likes to put on junk, like the serial number he found.

    The point is that stupid M$ and others are working to make hardware that the user has no control over but fail. It's just another proof that Senator Holling's wet dream of control of all digital devices can only be implimented by foolish laws. Inailienable rights are those which require vast expendatures to violate.

    --
    DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
  39. It is NOT public key by yerricde · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You have it backwards.

    No, you have it all wrong. The Xbox encrypts the flash with RSA's RC4 symmetric cipher (i.e. not a public key cipher). The remainder of this post is (strictly) off-topic because the Xbox boot process does not use public-key encryption.

    The private key decrypts.. the public key encrypts.

    In a public-key secrecy scheme, you're correct. But in a public-key authentication scheme, the private key encrypts the hash into a signature, and the public key decrypts the signature for comparison with the hash.

    He has the private key. And you can derive the public key from the private key.

    No, you can't do that in (for example) RSA.

    --
    Will I retire or break 10K?
  40. Booting CDR/DVDR by IIRCAFAIKIANAL · · Score: 2, Informative

    As was mentioned in several posts, this is bad (for MS) because it may allow two things - non-authorized software development and pirated software. (don't mark me as redundant yet, keep reading :)

    That's why Nintendo stuck with cartridges and why they now have a non-standard format for Gamecube games. I am really surprised other console developers haven't done this.... the slight increase in costs to slow piracy is a good trade-off.

    Anyone know if it would be possible to burn those mini-dvd's that Nintendo uses?

    --
    Robots are everywhere, and they eat old people's medicine for fuel.
    1. Re:Booting CDR/DVDR by CatPieMan · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Don't know about burning (or even obtaining) the mini-dvdrs that Nintendo uses, but, Sega tried just this with Dreamcast. The Dreamcast used a proprietary cd (I think it was called a GCD or a CDG or something) and was supposed to have a capacity of about 1GB (making buring impossible on a standard cd). There were two problems with this. The first one was, since the products were slightly non-standard, they were very easy to scratch and this would make the game not work. The second was the fault of the developers, they never used the full potential of the disk and only used less than 650MB -- so, people could burn them on CD writers (after some modifications here and there, it isn't quite that easy, but, it is close).

      Sometimes, it is just easier (and arguably better) to use the standard equipment rather than have to create something totally new.

      -CPM

      --
      ---You're all I need, When the water runs deep, You're all I need, Now I cry my soul to sleep -- Collective Soul, Needs
  41. Re:Security holes in a gaming console? by Anonymous+DWord · · Score: 2

    Those are all wonderful points, but they all have the same flaw. While you may not allow Microsoft to control everything in your house, 90% of the world is running Windows, and MS is trying pretty hard to get them all to buy an X-Box. The problem is not that you're not going to buy all their products, it's that everyone else is. That's why it's important.

    --
    "If he thinks he can hide and run from the United States and our allies, he's sorely mistaken." Bush on bin Laden
  42. Re:Security holes in a gaming console? by Anonymous+DWord · · Score: 2

    ...even casual users will be able to pirate games.

    This prospect scares the living hell out of developers, and rightfully so. Witness the demise of the Sega Dreamcast, which occurred a surprisingly short time after someone figured out how to boot CD-R's on the console.


    Unrelated. Think of, say, the mod chip for PSX. Sega had other problems.

    --
    "If he thinks he can hide and run from the United States and our allies, he's sorely mistaken." Bush on bin Laden
  43. Re:Security holes in a gaming console? by e_AltF4 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    > I wasn't aware security was a big
    > issue in gaming consoles.

    Security has it's place in THIS gaming console

    a) it's intended to be connected to the internet
    b) it has a HDD

    imagine someone writes a nice virus/worm with evil intentions (e.g. download a tiny linux distro, and then take over your XBox , store child pronography on you HDD or start a DOS on www.microsoft.com :-)

  44. XBox != console. XBox == hobbled PC by MsGeek · · Score: 2

    No. The XBox is a PC designed to work like a console.

    Basically it's a PC with these specs:
    733MHz Celeron
    64MB PC100 RAM
    GeForce 2.5...halfway between GeForce 2MX and 3.
    8GB HD.
    cheap 10/100 base T NIC
    non-standard USB (based on 1.1 spec) connections for controllers.

    However, for all the efforts to try to hax0r the XBox...and I wish them all well...they are going to have to find a way to make a keyboard work with it. With the tweaked non-standard USB it's not gonna be easy.

    --
    Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
  45. Re:You'd like to THINK that, wouldn't you? by Russ+Nelson · · Score: 2

    Amazing!

    --
    Don't piss off The Angry Economist
  46. Read this guy's project list by Animats · · Score: 2

    He does far more than reverse-engineer the XBox. Read this guy's project list. He's cranked out an incredible list of hardware projects. His own RISC CPU. A DES cracker. A controller for a midget submarine. An all-new design PBX for his frat house. Keyboard pedals for EMACS. A Linux-based computer that fits in a Star-Tac phone case (in progress.) Plus he's in a fraternity, plays guitar and violin, and has a blonde girlfriend. And all this while doing a thesis at MIT.

    1. Re:Read this guy's project list by acb · · Score: 3, Funny

      Yes, you know a guy has really made it in the world when he has a blonde girlfriend. (Not a cheap knockoff, or just a very light brunette, but a genuine, certified blonde.)

  47. Re:This is great... by squiggleslash · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Well, actually that's the coolest part. Microsoft is selling X-Boxes at a loss, in the belief that it can make back the money on games (hence the reason for producing the "secure" loader anyway: to prevent the loading of games produced by anyone who hasn't paid the Microsoft royalties.)

    If there were a way of loading GNU/Linux or one of the BSDs onto the X-Box, you'd essentially have a working computer system subsidized by the company currently doing the most to harm free software.

    Ironically it might even keep the platform "alive" for the users. The business model for the X-Box is screwed, and based on what MS *thought* other console manufacturers were doing rather than what they really are doing. Sony and Nintendo, and Sega for most of its life, sell consoles at cost, and make profits from the games. Someone somewhere decided that "at cost" meant "at a loss" and Microsoft thought that the success of console manufacturers apparently using an "at a loss" business model meant they could potentially succeed at it too.

    Sega switched to the "at a loss" model, largely through desperation, and the consequence was that Sega became a publisher, not a manufacturer, because it couldn't subsidize the consoles, it didn't work. Microsoft may have deeper pockets, but few companies will chase an unrealistic business model just for the sake the chasing it, and Microsoft is left with a choice of continuing, and not gaining anything; selling the X-Box at cost in which case it will be substantially more expensive than its competition and probably will not achieve the type of market share Microsoft wants for it, or to drop the project for now and come up with a better idea.

    Given Microsoft's past history, I'd say the last of these options is the most likely. This leaves current X-Box users with machines that will be quickly seen as "obsolete" and "unsupported", and while Microsoft will doubtless try to cut its losses by supporting them, I suspect it'll be more and more difficult to get X-Box support through means other than mail order as time goes on.

    A project to open the X-Box, and turn it into a real PC, which is what getting the Linux kernel running on the X-Box could achieve, would help the end users, even if it wouldn't help Microsoft.

    --
    You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
  48. Re:Security holes in a gaming console? by martyn+s · · Score: 2

    Xbox Live might be a closed network, but I doubt the internet protocol in the xbox forces it to work only on the Xbox Live network. I'm sure someone can write software that'll let Xbox browse the web, which means Xbox can connect to any site on the internet, which means it can participate in a DDoS attack. It's not like you get a special line installed that is directly connected to the Xbox Live network and not connected to anything else. It's still connected to the internet, so it can attack anything on it.

  49. Re:Security holes in a gaming console? by martyn+s · · Score: 2

    That's not really true. For legal reasons. You think people couldn't crack the original Playstation? Even if they could, people couldn't just ship playstation games without paying royalties.

  50. Re:Fluffi Bunni? by Mongoose · · Score: 2

    No, don't confuse hw mammals with networking mammals. sha-ish

  51. not quite by Skuld-Chan · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Sure - but one could easily argue that its main purpose is to keep pirates from running unauthorized (copied) programs on it

    and to keep developers from building their own executables without real dev kits (and depriving ms of royalties)

    and it keeps game hack systems out - like the gameshark and the codebreaker like devices from running.

    And before you bitch and moan about MS being a bunch of bastards - almost every game system that ever came along has had some system to keep developers, hackers, and users from explointing the technology inside. Even Atari was that way - mostly through Atari not releasing all the specs for programming it so their games could look better in comparision - and they sued the first company who dared defy them (I think it was sierra).

  52. Re:This is great... by aminorex · · Score: 2

    I bought two of them, and they gather dust.
    Why? Because Microsoft looses money on each sale.
    I am confident that there will be a mod-chip for the
    X-Box long before they are worth less than the $200
    I paid for them.

    --
    -I like my women like I like my tea: green-
  53. Re:Lame and Dumb by nzhavok · · Score: 2

    Then you have the marketing figures that say that these boxes are flying off of the shelves.

    I disagree, I expect that if every slashdotter and their dog boycotted it still wouldn't make a dent in the sales figures. Most people couldn't give a shit about whether MS has a monopoly or not, these pwople will buy the xbox if they see it can run shiny new games.

    Game producers will jump on the xbox bandwagon when they see the sales figures for the current games, not the sales figures for the xbox. Personally I'd pick up a few xboxes if they could run linux, turn them into a dvd/divx/mp3 player, whatever I felt like at the time. Come to think of it my dad needs a new PC, he's still got a P100 :-O

    --

    He who defends everything, defends nothing. -- Fredrick The Great
  54. XBox keyboard: pigs do fly, apparently. by MsGeek · · Score: 2
    OK, so there is, apparently:

    http://www.xbox-scene.com/xbox1data/news-archive-1 7-3-2002.php

    Interact is putting this out. News bite is buried almost at the bottom of the page.

    --
    Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
  55. Re:Security holes in a gaming console? by Anonymous+DWord · · Score: 2

    Modifying a console entails a significant amount of risk, money and effort.

    Gimme a break. You can get it done on a street corner for 20 bucks cash. I don't know a single person with a Playstation who hasn't gotten a mod chip.

    --
    "If he thinks he can hide and run from the United States and our allies, he's sorely mistaken." Bush on bin Laden
  56. Re:Cool by detect · · Score: 2, Funny

    So it's possible? Sick!

    --
    // The fastest Alt-Tab in the West
  57. Re:A lesson to be learned by WNight · · Score: 2

    Not that id would really say anything else, even if it had been cracked.

    They sell that protection, along with the engine. If they said someone had figured out how to beat it, it wouldn't be worth much.

    But, people have beaten it. There's a patch that makes a server not request checks from connecting clients. It was written to let anyone play but it has the side benefit of reducing that annoying lag that everyone notices when someone connects to a server.

    I don't know if anyone has defeated the whole system yet, in such a way as to allow for the creation of a new serial number that is valid, or appears valid. It's fairly likely though, because you could either generate the rest of the numbers (possible if they weren't careful to hash them after generation and used a less than wonderful PRNG) or crack the key server and grab the master list. Or likely one of a few other ways.

    Would id even be able to detect this, if it was used by a small (1000-5000) number of people. They get a duplicate-key message all the time, when someone connects to a server, disconnects, and joins another. And I know people who succesfully use one key on multiple computers. As long as they join a server a few minutes apart they're fine, supposedly even on the same server.

    But in the end, the system is weak in the worst way. It's VERY easy to DoS it out of service and when the server isn't reachable they servers prevent anyone, anywhere, from playing, instead of allowing everyone. Would you buy a game that would refuse to let you play based on something a master server said? I wouldn't. I've played Q3 a few times at LANs, but I'll never spend money on, or even install, a game that I don't have control over.

  58. Re:Did somebody say "trustworthy computing"? by WNight · · Score: 2

    Actually, the CPU is (usually) what does the decrypting, so there's no reason why data over the memory bus needs to be decrypted.