Ask Moshe Bar about [your choice here]

Moshe Bar is (pick one) 1. A Linux kernel developer; 2. A motorcycle enthusiast; 3. The primary openMosix maintainer; 4. A respected Linux device driver writer; 5. Author of several books and many articles about Linux; 6. Newly married. 7. A Talmudic scholar; 8. All of the above. The correct answer is 8, and since in addition to (or perhaps because of) all this Moshe is a popular guy, this interview is here by reader request. (Yes, we take interview requests; send them to robin@roblimo.com.) Ask Moshe whatever you wish, one question per post. We'll send him 10 of the highest moderated questions and post his answers as soon as he gets them back to us.

Comments

Bikes

[crumbz]

Why did you choose a Harley Davidson? Just curious.

Re:Bikes

[Altus]

you cannot compare a harley with a japaneese bike that costs 5 grand. They arent the same animal, and the engine size (and power) is a big deal. And, if you are talking about a sport bike, the comparison is even more flawed, they are entirely different animals, made for different uses.

I am a cruiser rider, so I will limit my reply to thoes types of bikes.

the Heavier jappaneese cruisers are quite nice. I am fond of the Yammaha road-star Silverado, they come with a decent amount of chrome and good accessories. They also cost around 11-12 grand. The low-rider, which is a beautiful harley, comes with far more chrome although less accessories and costs a bit more at 14-15 grand, this is not even the cheepest harley, the cheepest electra-glide is even less expensive and comes with hard luggage. It is an excelent deal if you are looking for a bike that can do reasonably long trips in comfort.

'Thats realy the purpose of the harley... long rides in relative comfort. I know thats why I choose mine. Style is another consideration, as is ease of maintenence. I do a little work on my bike, and I am learning to take on larger and larger jobs. When I owned a japanees bike (my starter bikes, which all needed work at some point) I found that it was very difficult to work on the engines, they were cramped and not very serviceable, the harley, by comparison, has been much easier.

the choice between harley and BMW is a more difficult one, I guess for me it did come down to styling, and ride position. I like BMWs but the harley was the way I wanted to go.

Re:Bikes

[Altus]

Why anyone would ride a bike with a V-6 cramed in to a tiny little space I will never know.

I have never liked the Valkarie. In addition I realy dont like the styling on any of the newer honda cruisers. for styling reasons alone, I would buy a V-star or Road-star before a recent model honda. Its just my opinion of course, other people might love them, but they just dont do it for me.

I used to like the Kawasakis but for reasons unknown the look of the 1500 cruiser do much for me anymore, and I think the roadstar is a better deal.

The reason I dont buy an old bike is that I dont have the time or skill to do a full rebuild on a bike... The new 88 ci engine from harley is a beautiful piece of work, and it will provide me with all the hours of riding that I desire this summer, and this winter I can tear it down and get my hands dirty.

thats what I am looking for in a bike, and the harley delivered it nicely. It also helps that I got a good deal on a bareley broken in 2000 FXDL (under 5k miles) with plenty of extras on it, most of which were things I would have spent money on anyway.

Dont get me wrong. I hold no ill will to japaneese bikes (even sport bikes, I kind of like them actualy) and you definitely pay a premium for the harley davidson, but for me, it was worth the money to get the exact bike I wanted. hopefully, with proper maintinence I will be riding it for years to come.

Most important question.

[flewp]

Where do you find the time for everything?

Re:Most important question.

[FortKnox]

To make a more specific version of the parent question:

You do all that and have a wife? How can you possibly find time for her? Does she want more time? Does she kernel hack with you?

Sidenote: Before people bitch about the 'one question rule', all of it could be slurped up into one question, I just broke it down so that its more readable :-P

Re:Most important question.

[flewp]

Funny. I watch very little TV as it is. I maybe watch one program on the discovery channel, tlc, or the history channel at night, usually before going to bed. That and I'll probably be watching the Simpsons at dinnertime when the syndicated episodes come on at 6.
That said, I find I don't have enough time in the day to do everything I want. Work during the day and evenings (depending on when I get up, how much work I have, etc). If I'm not working while I'm home, I try and either get some 3d graphics stuff done, or more traditional art. I also try and have a social life. I find that there just isn't enough time to get all the stuff done I'd like.
I could probably stand to spend less time surfing around sites that are pretty trivial, but that probably only takes up about an hour of the day, so I can't see that really giving me all that much more time.

On a side note, I find the moderation of my post, and of the parent post right after this thread funny. How can mine be redundant when it was posted a minute earlier? I know, I know, no use in talking about it, but the moderators are for sure on crack.

Re:Most important question.

[CorwinOfAmber]

I guarantee you that if you turn off the TV and force yourself to use the web for work-related research only, you'll be amazed at how much you can squeeze out of a day.

*snort*

You don't have kids, do you?

Time

[rnb]

How do you find time to follow all of your interests?

As a device-driver writer...

[Marx_Mrvelous]

It seems like such a chore to write drivers that work on all distros since they all use different kernels. It seems to me that businesses only develop for windows because they are guaranteed that their drivers will work on all windows machines for X (4,5,6) years without any mroe work. Having experience writing Linux device drivers, do you think that a cross-distribution effort to standardize on kernel versions and guarantee major hardware manufacturers this compatibility would promote driver development in Linux?

Re:As a device-driver writer...

[TweeKinDaBahx]

You hit the nail on the head with this one. I think that a standardized driver system would help to persuade many people to use Linux. I know that my main concern about implementing Linux in business setting is it's incompatibility, and standardized drivers would be a giant leap towards solving this problem.

Re:As a device-driver writer...

[BlowCat]

UDI addresses portability between different OSes. The question that started this thread is about binary compatibility for drivers (i.e. kernel modules) between different kernel versions used by different Linux distributions.

Open Source

[TweeKinDaBahx]

What is your opinion of the current state of the open-source community at this time, and do you think open source beer has a future?

Also, Do yout think that Germany's swich to open source will have a signifigant impact on the open source community and/or IT in general?

I have only one question:

[Baldric Dominus]

Does Moshe have a son/daughter named "foo"?

Re:I have only one question:

[cjsnell]

Or a brother named Hershel?

(I crack myself up)

openMosix

[MBCook]

What is the major difference between openMosix and Mosix, and what do you think openMosix needs to improve on the most?

Getting started as a kernel developer...

[PM4RK5]

As an avid Linux user, and programmer, I've always been interested in developing the kernel. However, the sheer size of the kernel has been rather intimidating, and kept me away from it. I've also found myself to be better at programming "utilities" rather than "end-user" types of programs. Is there any section of the kernel that would be "the best place to start"?

With that in mind, are there any suggestions you could make to those of us interested in kernel development, on how to get started?

Thanks up front.

Re:Getting started as a kernel developer...

[inkfox]

You might get some help by starting at kernelnewbies.org and the related IRC channel.

It's made for people just like you. *nod*

Talmud and Technology

[valdis]

We have already seen the Islamic religious authorities having to deal with the question of whether divorce via e-mail is binding. What do you see as the biggest and/or most interesting questions regarding Talmudic teaching as they apply to current/near-future technology?

Re:Talmud and Technology

[Chasing Amy]

> What do you see as the biggest and/or most interesting questions regarding Talmudic teaching as
> they apply to current/near-future technology?

On a related question about Jewish teachings and technology, I can't seem to get my Golem to work. I've mixed the four elements in the proper proportions and recited all the usual kabbalistic incantations, but the damn thing just won't come to life and smite my enemies.

So, what's the proper way to compile a Golem?

;-)

Re:Talmud and Technology

[yoz]

On a related question about Jewish teachings and technology, I can't seem to get my Golem to work. I've mixed the four elements in the proper proportions and recited all the usual kabbalistic incantations, but the damn thing just won't come to life and smite my enemies.

You've got the latest Shem and incantations, right? You can download patches by writing the correct command line and putting it under your pillow while you sleep. This is important, as some Eastern European developers have reported various crashes due to command conflicts. You have to be really careful here.
(There have also been some embarrassing incidents involving denial-of-service attacks with commands from untrusted users - this has been known to cause flooding)

So, what's the proper way to compile a Golem?

The HOWTO is way too long to list here, but I'll give you this tip: Make sure your Perl is up to date.

-- Yoz

Re:Talmud and Technology

[hndrcks]

So the Talmud would suggest using TCP for the divorce protocol, rather than UDP?

Re:Talmud and Technology

[sethg]

In order for your golem to work, the Hebrew word emes (truth) has to be written on its forehead. Unfortunately, ever since EMES-DOS was bought by You-Know-Who, Golem licenses have been too expensive for the average hacker....

Different social groups

[CAIMLAS]

As someone involved in many different activities, do you have cohesive social groups? That is, do the people from, say, your motorcycle-riding friends develop/use linux as well? (Or does your wife know about your dirty little secret? :P) I'm interested in knowing what your social ties are, being as it seems you are a fairly active individual.

Favorite historical figure..

[mrgrey]

He also has a long-standing love-affair with Israeli history.

What is your favorite Isreali historical figure?

BitKeeper

[AirLace]

Despite staunch opposition from certain developers, Linus has recently started to maintain the kernel using the non-free BitKeeper SCM product, which is not only proprietary but also uses undocumented file formats, making interoperability difficult or impossible. Do you think it's fair to encourage developers who would otherwise keep to Free Software to turn to a proprietary solution and what is in effect, shareware?

Re:BitKeeper

[AirLace]

Source code doesn't equal documentation. Just look at the recent Ogg Vorbis fiasco. Besides, due to the license of BitKeeper, it would be wise for developers not to even look at the code as it's no doubt encumbered with patents, trade secrets and who knows what else. Remember, Microsoft employees aren't even allowed to run GPL software because it might infect their code.

Re:BitKeeper

[cheese_wallet]

How is it possible to have (Score: 5, Offtopic)?

Congratulations

[CAIMLAS]

... your life is now an open book. Welcome to the life of the slashdot celebrity.

Popularity, Ease, Reliability Threshhold

[4of12]

Do you see Mosix becoming so easy to use, so powerful and so fault-tolerant that cheap clusters of commodity boxes will soon displace big proprietary SMP machines?

And, just to be totally random, have you found that your Talmudic studies have made you, as a person interfacing with other people, more easy to use, powerful, and fault-tolerant?

Re:Popularity, Ease, Reliability Threshhold

[GigsVT]

Do you see Mosix becoming so easy to use, so powerful and so fault-tolerant that cheap clusters of commodity boxes will soon displace big proprietary SMP machines?

First, It's openMosix, not Mosix. Mosix is the legacy version that may not be open source at some point in the near future.

Secondly, clusters are no where near SMP in as far as what problems they are applicable to. Maybe if we get some sort of high speed commodity interconnect that lets us have shared memory between nodes, then we will be gettting somewhere, otherwise, clusters work on mostly CPU bound problems that don't rely on tons of shared communication between nodes.

His Byte Column

[wiredog]

Serving With Linux is interesting.

Your new motorcycle

[dstone]

I read that your past rides have been a Harley-Davidson Softail, a Fat Boy, and a Yamaha Dragstar 1100. I believe I see a Harley Sportster laid into the graphic on the front page of your web site, so is that the new one on the way? 883 or 1200? Any special plans for it? Engine mods?

Memory pooling.

[ahfoo]

I wrote to the mosix-list a few years ago about whether Mosix would ever help me render animations with a Windows 3D animation app under Wine. I got a reply saying that anything running under Wine would require pooled memory. Are we going to be seeing this soon because Wine has definitely improved in ways that I don't think anybody imagined in just a few years.

Linux and Jewish Law

[Bonker]

I understand that a lot of Jewish religous law about technology is based around the 'started fire' idea. Forgive me for not knowing more about it as I'm not Jewish, but the way I understand it, a fire cannot be started on the sabbath, but a fire can be maintained during the sabbath.

By the same doctrine, computerized systems can be booted on the day before the sabbath and then put on an autmatic mode during the sabbath. During that time, a sysadmin can address important issues as they creep up, just like he would add a log to the fire he started before the sabbath.

Right? Please correct me if I'm not.

Okay, this said, is Linux kosher for the sabbath? Is it permissable to say, perform a checkfs during the holy day? What tasks can you perform and what tasks can't you?

Re:Linux and Jewish Law

[Otter]

I understand that a lot of Jewish religous law about technology is based around the 'started fire' idea.

It's more that electricity is classified as 'fire' and electrical devices are subject to the laws governing fire. That is the case when the electricity has the potential to create a fire, because it creates heat or sparks. Solid-state electronics and LEDs are a different matter, but that's getting into some obscure rulings and in practice almost all electrical devices are treated as fire.

but the way I understand it, a fire cannot be started on the sabbath, but a fire can be maintained during the sabbath...just like he would add a log to the fire he started before the sabbath.

No, the fire can't be touched at all, except for reasons of safety. On holidays, which have a weaker set of restrictions, the fire can be tended.

By the same doctrine, computerized systems can be booted on the day before the sabbath and then put on an autmatic mode during the sabbath.

That's a different issue -- if a cron job or something similar is configured before the Sabbath starts, there's no problem with its running itself. Most religious Jewish homes have lights connected to timers for precisely that sort of thing.

Re:Linux and Jewish Law

[JCCyC]

Yikes. This is problematic. We sysadmins all know that, more often than not, problems that crop up at disadvantageous times tend to absolutely require human intervention despite all our feeble attempts to automate everything. So the boss (let's say a small ISP/ASP owner) calls up the sysadmin in panic (or rather knocks into his house if answering the phone isn't allowed either), saying the server/database/RAS/whatever has to be back up right now, and the sysadmin answers "Sorry, no can do, we're in the Sabbath"????

Sorry, this won't fly with me.

Re:Linux and Jewish Law

[rossz]

I always felt the sabbath fire ban was a bit tricky. As I understand it (IANAJ), making fire is considered work. However, there are numerous situations where making fire can be considered play. Just look at any "dad" on a holiday picnic burning the hamburgers over a barbeque, fire is involved, but he's having a damn good time being "master chef". Same goes for computing, firing up (pun intended) a computer to play a game is certainly not work. Even some computing things many would call work is fun for some, e.g. kernel hacking.

Re:Linux and Jewish Law

[sconeu]

IAAJ, but Reform.

My understanding is that the spark is considered "Creation", and that that's where the work comes in. Remember, Hashem did the WORK of CREATION in 6 days and on the seventh day he rested. So (in my imperfect understanding), creation is forbidden.

Oh, and observant Jews don't cook on Shabbat, either.

Re:Linux and Jewish Law

[The Wing Lover]

However, there are numerous situations where making fire can be considered play.

Not by orthodox jews. "Work" is probably a poor translation into English of what is forbidden on the Sabbath. For example, a Rabbi and his staff are permitted to do their jobs on the Sabbath (it is their job). Likewise, there are several leisure activities which are forbidden. So the distinction isn't "fun vs. not fun" or "making money vs. not making money". Even if you like playiung video games or want to watch the hockey game, you can't.

"Doing Work" really means "using technology" or "doing creative things" or "transporting large objects outdoors", etc.

Note that I'm not Jewish either, but for 2 1/2 years I rented a basement apartment from an Orthodox Jewish family and learned a lot about the religion at that time.

An excellent read is Judaism 101

.

Re:Linux and Jewish Law

[The Wing Lover]

I suspect that a Jewish person who observes the Sabbath would not take a job which required him to be on call from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. As such, I don't believe it is problematic. "The boss" would already know not to disturb the sabbath observer, and would have made prior arrangements.

Re:Linux and Jewish Law

[yoz]

problems that crop up at disadvantageous times tend to absolutely require human intervention despite all our feeble attempts to automate everything

I have a problem with this idea of "absolutely". What if the sysadmin's at his mother's funeral? What if he's in another country? What if he's in a coma? (Add a further thousand what-ifs) There are emergencies and there are emergencies.

There is no such thing as a 24x365-on-call human being. If your business can't get by without relying on a single individual's availability at any time, you'd better find some more people to put on call or find another business.

Re:Linux and Jewish Law

[The Wing Lover]

Thank you for the clarification.

I know that I'm obviously not the right person to be discussing Jewish law, but I wanted to make sure that a comment about how it was probably okay to barbeque on the sabbath since that was a "fun" fire and not a "work" fire didn't go unchecked...

- awh

Re:Linux and Jewish Law

[Leven Valera]

Not quite. One of our consultants, who's Orthodox, tells me that on the Sabbath, unless someone is in mortal danger, and you, as the Jew, are the only person around who could possibly affect the outcome for the better, you are allowed to work to that point only.

LV

Re:Linux and Jewish Law

[TWR]

Enjoyment isn't the issue.

It is presumed that God enjoyed creating the world; it wasn't "work." But yet He took a break from creating.

A writer who loves to write or a painter who loves to paint would still be rejoined from partaking in their craft. And so would a kernel hacker.

-jon

As a device driver writer...

[dalutong]

do you think that the Linux kernel should follow the same route as the Mozilla project. That being that when Mozilla reaches 1.0 the API will freeze and any plugins, applications that use gecko, etc. will be compatible until version 1.2 is out. Should the Linux kernel make some sort of standardized API for drivers so a driver that works with 2.4.0 will work for 2.4.20?

Is this a reasonable request? (doable?)

why/why not?

What was their expression???

[haggar]

After reading this cheerful little event I decided to ask you: what was the expression on the faces of these Microsoft executives, when you delivered your speech about Linux?

Talk about priceless :o)

Database Clusters

[emil]

As a cluster guru, I am curious about your take on database server clustering in both the commercial and the open-source space.

First, it appears that IBM DB2 has been wiping the floor with Oracle on the TPC benchmarks lately, and Oracle "RAC" has been a flop. However, IBM is not using any hardware from its proprietary server lines, but instead relies on clusters of "federated" databases running on 32 standard PCs running either Linux or Windows. It does appear that Oracle still generally beats IBM in raw performance on a single system (as IBM refuses to post any non-clustered benchmarks AFAIK).

Do you think that any of the hype over either of these vendors cluster packages is worth attention? Do you agree with Sun's claim that TPC(-C) no longer has any practical relevance? It all seems to be getting rather silly.

Second, is there any push to make any of the ACID-leaning open databases (Postgres, SAP-DB, etc.) fault-tolerant, perhaps using Mosix? I assume this would require modifications to Postgres enabling it to access raw partitions. Have you had any talks with the Red Hat Database people about cluster modifications to Postgres, just out of curiousity?

Re:Database Clusters

[GigsVT]

What the hell does that have to do with openMosix.

You are talking about fault tolerant clustering, which openMosix isn't. OM is parallel processing type clustering.

the future of linux

[larry bagina]

Linux (as is a lot of open source software) is mostly just a reimplementation. Although there are some novel ideas, unix, clustering, etc, were done by others years ago.

Do you think the linux kernel, openMosix, and Open Source in general can break out of that stereotype?

Motorcycle Question

[w.p.richardson]

What do you think of the return of the Indian brand?

As for me, I think someone is cashing in on a classic. Tis a shame.

It's 12:31 pm...

[nowt]

Please restate your assumptions ;)

Re: interviews

[OblongPlatypus]

Why not? Starting another interview won't do anything to (further) delay the Alan Cox interview.

Not about Linux at all...

[Dimwit]

...but the article said pick anything. Since there are quite a few philosophers on Slashdot (and since I'm Jewish and this question gets a lot of thought from me, and when will I ever be able to ask again?) here's my question:

Do you see any reconciliation between science and the G-d of the Torah? What about between Science and any sort of Creationism at all? Do you see the possibility that science, as it approaches the moment of Creation itself, becomes more in tune with religion? I guess a big part of what I'm asking - do you see a place for (or proof of) G-d in science?

Thanks...sorry this isn't the usual Slashdot fare, but I can't help but ask.

Re:Not about Linux at all...

[Graff]

If God does exist then there must be a place for Him in science - as science looks for truth. But science is not equipped to prove or disprove God.

Science deals w/measurable and repeatable events. God is neither.

I will generally agree with what you are saying, but I think that there needs to be a bit of a clarification.

First of all, the scientific method does not have the ability to prove any hypothesis for certain. Instead, science is only able to show that a hypothesis has held for certain conditions and has not yet been disproven. Therefore, the scientific method is unable to prove any hypothesis concerning the existence of God. Science merely has the potential to show that there is an effect similar to the existence of God, under certain conditions! :)

As far as disproving God, science does have the ability to disprove hypothesis. However, with the subject of God this ability may prove to fall short. Any evidence of the non-existence of God can be neatly explained away as "the mystery of God" and swept under the rug.

And people wonder why science and religion so seldom walk hand-in-hand...

Re:Not about Linux at all...

[bero-rh]

I think that they always are in agreement when science is done correctly.

Make that, when both science and religion are done correctly.

Correctly done science is certain to run into trouble with a religion asserting earth is flat, or sun circles around earth.

Re:Not about Linux at all...

[MrResistor]

As far as I can tell, there's a big loophole in Genesis that allows for Evolution. Essentially, the loophole can be summed up in the question "how long is a day?" The loophole was pointed out in the New Testament by John (IIRC), who said "to God a day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is but a day". To anyone who insists that the 7 days of creation were 24 hours, I say "who are you to tell God how long a day is?"

I'm a Buddhist, so these questions are much easier for me, but I was raised Christian and still believe in a higher power, so I've put some thought into them. It's been a while since I've read the Bible, but I recall that there was enough ambiguity and strangeness in Genesis to allow room for things like Evolution if the reader was willing to put some though into it, as opposed to simply accepting the dogma handed to them at face value.

Re:Not about Linux at all...

[DunbarTheInept]

Until there is a light/dark cycle in existence, the word "Day" is totally undefined. One of the silly things about literalist creationism (the type that insists it was exactly 7 of our normal earth-days) is that before the earth exists, the measurement "day" is undefined. Before there was light, the measurement "day" is undefined. How long is a "day" when there isn't even a rotating earth or a sun yet?

Of course, as an atheist, I don't see this as evidence of creationism and evolution being compatable. I see it as evidence of the story being likely made up by ordinary humans at a time when people didn't realize what causes days and nights, and didn't realize that the length of a day is different depending on what planet you are talking about. The story was good enough to explain the unknown at the time, but later on as some of those unknowns became knowns, the errors in the explanation started to become noticable, and apologists started finding strange ways to patch around those errors.

Re:Not about Linux at all...

[DunbarTheInept]

But there is tension when the science begins w/the assertion that there is no God or supernatural.

Let me get out the clue stick: *whack*.
The position that a particular proposed thing isn't known to exist is not an assertion! It's simply the default position you get when you can't find conclusive evidence. If you claim something exists, the burden of proof is on you. If someone doesn't think the thing exists, that isn't technically even a claim at all.

If you don't think that's the way logic works, then I invite you to pay me the $100 you owe me for the thing I did for you that you can't remember anymore. After all, you aren't going to be able to prove you *don't* owe me.

Re:Not about Linux at all...

[Asprin]

If God does exist then there must be a place for Him in science - as science looks for truth. But science is not equipped to prove or disprove God.

#include philosophiX0r.h

I disagree with this statement slightly, even though it sounds like we are on the same philosophical page. So, for purposes of discussion, here's my $2/100...

Quite simply, any creative act requires two things: a mechanism and an intent. Science tells you 'who', 'what', 'where', 'when' and (if you do your homework, pay attention to nature and maybe get a little lucky) 'how'; Religion tells you 'why'. One is about *fact* while the other is about *truth*.

I still roll my eyes every time one of those Discovery Channel shows has some marine biologist denying the existence of God within two sentences of claiming that this species or that evolved such-and-such a feature with the *intent* of resolving some survivability issue.

Props to Einstein: when someone can write out a Hamiltonian that includes humor, I'll recant. God may or may not throw dice, but I *know* he doesn't own a pocket calculator.

Re:Not about Linux at all...

[TWR]

My answer to this question used to be my .sig:

"Religion answers the question "Why" and science answers the question "How". A poor mind confuses these questions, but most people can't outthink a grapefruit."

-jon

Re:Not about Linux at all...

[Hard_Code]

Nevermind that the Bible itself has gone through lots of translations and has had meaning lost.

For all we know, God mandated evolution. There is a gap between percieved/measured reality and "Truth". I am completely comfortable with religion having free reign in this gap.

Re:Not about Linux at all...

[Darby]

Science tells you 'who', 'what', 'where', 'when' and (if you do your homework, pay attention to nature and maybe get a little lucky) 'how'; Religion tells you 'why'. One is about *fact* while the other is about *truth*.

This is such a lame piece of brainwashed crap.
Religion has nothing to do with truth. It is about belief. Because you believe something to be true doesn't make it "The Truth".

If you can't even seperate your belief from an actual truth (which of course there are whole philosophical discourses debating the existence of any such thing) then you are very close minded.

Seriously, if you have or will have children, what are you going to tell them?
God made the world etc. This is an absolute truth.
Or are you going to be honest with them and say, "I believe that this is true. Not everyone does."
And assuming that you are a christian, would you go on to say, "In fact most of the people in the world do not believe what I do".
The first is brainwashing pure and simple. Sort of screws up the whole free will thing.
The second is honesty.

How will you treat your children?

Re:Not about Linux at all...

[MrResistor]

That's debatable. The earliest known version of the Old Testament is in Greek, and dates to 300CE. The earliest known version in Hebrew dates to around 900CE, and there is evidence that all older versions were destroyed systematically. It may be in the same language, but I'd say the evidence suggests that it isn't the same book.

Re:Not about Linux at all...

[DunbarTheInept]

Hubris plain and simple.
You accuse me of hubris yet claim to have knowlege of god. Think on that a moment, hypocrite.

the scientific method is not synonymous w/logic. There is evidence for God - but that evidence and all the arguments that exist around it do not fit the scientific model of investigating repeatable, measurable phenomenon. I take it you do not believe in love as it is not measured.
false

You also default to the position that Abraham Lincoln never existed as we have nothing more than heresay.
false

I'm getting a little annoyed but the clue stick thing bugs me a bit. If from the start you create a 'rule' that God cannot exist so any explanation that rests upon God is invalid then you are not looking at all your options.
True. What is false is your claim that this is what atheists are doing, liar. Since the rest of your post is based on that lie, I'll stop here.

.

Re:Not about Linux at all...

[karlm]

Ehh... they believe the Dead Sea Scrolls were hidden away in 68 C.E. The Dead Sea Scrolls contain fragments from all of the Old Testement books except Ester andcontains a nearly complete copy of Isaiah, IIRC. Maybe the earliest complete work is from 300 C.E., but there are much earlier framents that match pretty well what we have today.

Where have you read about systematic destruction? IANAJ, but it's my understanding that at least the first 5 books were coppied very carefully, with someone double-checkinthe scribe's work and something like 3 wrong letters allowed before the copy had to be destroyed. Once an old copy got to tattered to be readable, it had to be destroyed to prevent bad copies from floating arround. Is this the systematic destruction you speak of? My reading of you post sounds more like some kind of evil rabinical conspiracy. Once again, IANAJ. (Not that there's anything wrong with being Jewish.)

Re:Not about Linux at all...

[MrResistor]

Yes, I was refering to the earliest complete work. The 300CE copy was in greek, though, and so I would hardly consider it to be without errors, even just those stemming from translation. The earliest complete Hebrew copy is from, IIRC, around 800CE. There are certainly fragments which predate both of those, including the Dead Sea Scrolls. This is all from the World Religions class I took about 7 years ago. There may have been some new findings since then, but nothing I've heard about.

While I would not have any doubts about fragments written in Hebrew, I certainly have doubts about fragments, or even complete copies, in any other languages, as they would have been translated by other people for their own purposes.

The destruction of old, unreadable copies may be the systematic destruction I'm talking about, I'm not really sure. I'm no theologist, I'm just regurgitating what I was told by someone I respect as an expert in the field.

Re: interviews

[gosand]

Well, as we have seen in the past, some people take a long time to respond to the interview questions. Why should the interviews be single threaded? They aren't dependent on one another.

And yes, you did miss it . I paid close attention to this one, as one of my questions was asked. (#10)

ok, so I admit it...

[morgajel]

I have no Idea who you are.

however, it says here you develop drivers.
how does one get into that sort of thing starting out? obviously you've been doing it for a while. how would someone who has a base understanding of assembly and C get into this? it's a big field, and I wouldn't know where to start, but I would like to help some day.

status of migrating sockets development

[Kz]

For me, that's the main thing that i fear of "fork and forget", a non-migrating socket would easily double the network traffic on a cluster... but i've never been able to found any word of progress on this area.

And what about other forms of IPC communication? is there a (performance) contrainidication on their use on mosix clusters?

Shut up, meathead

[zpengo]

I think he knows that, he was just using the cell phone thing as an example of how religious issues can be sparked by new technology.

Re:Shut up, meathead

[valdis]

Exactly. I'm rasonably aware of which texts each of the 3 major religions to come out of the Middle East use, and the basic precepts of each (although I do wish to thank 'Flakeloaf' for the reminder of the distinction between Mishna and gemara).

The Islamic world has had the divorce-via-email thing crop up at least twice that I know of.

The Christian world seems mostly concerned with the Internet as carrier of moral decay.

However, I have *NOT* heard of any recent discussion of similar religion-meets-technology from the Jewish world (at least not since "Is it OK to use a telephone on the Sabbath?")

Seemed like Moshe would be *the* person to ask. ;)

Re:Shut up, meathead

[jonathanjo]

However, I have *NOT* heard of any recent discussion of similar religion-meets-technology from the Jewish world (at least not since "Is it OK to use a telephone on the Sabbath?")

How about Jewwwwws Innnnnn Spaaaaaaace?

What area of law are you studying?

[gosand]

According to the FAQ on your website, you are currently studying for your first law degree. With such a heavy technical background, especially in CS, I am curious as to what area of the law you are planning on going into. Is it a technology-related area? It would be nice to have some more technically-capable people in the law profession, especially those who are Linux friendly. Or is going into law just your way of making money for that early retirement?

Maintaining perspective while maintaining code

[dinotrac]

I just wonder how difficult it is to keep your head in maintaining complex and sophisticated code with a new family while living in the midst of tensions that most of us can't imagine.

Boycotting Israel and Israeli technology

[Ashurbanipal]

Many geeks track politics from a logically analytical standpoint rather than from an emotional, nationalistic, or religiously prescribed stance.

Some of these "freethinkers" have come to the conclusion that Israel is a racist theocracy no better than the WW2 German Nationialism that spawned it. Right or wrong, this viewpoint exists, and my question is based not on the debatable truth of this view but rather on its existence.

Much technology development, and many great programmers (Arnold Robbins comes to mind) are resident in Israel. Is it legitimate (from your perspective as a student of the Talmud) to use one's influence to dissuade one's employer from using technology developed in Israel, if one has anti-Zionist beliefs? What if using one's position to show solidarity with the oppressed Semitic peoples of Israel and Palestine is a disservice to one's employer? Is the responsibility to the employer greater than the responsibility to personal conscience?

And finally, does it make a difference if you're Jewish, and have spent countless hours in thought, study and prayer before arriving at the decision to boycott Israel?

Re:Boycotting Israel and Israeli technology

[SquadBoy]

I assume that you are talking about yourself so I have to ask. Just what is it that Israel does that is like the Nazis in any way shape or form? I have yet to come across anyone who holds that opnion that can back it up but you may be the first. mail me at rayp@unixnetworking.net if you want to take this off fourm and prevent us from getting modded down. I strongly disagree with you but I am open to rational arguments based on fact and looking at the whole picture. Please respond.

Re:Boycotting Israel and Israeli technology

[TWR]

You're implying that there's no difference between Saudi Arabia and Israel.

One of those countries is democratic, socialist-capitalist, with freedom of the press, an independent judiciary, religious freedom, and a vibrant educational system. A Budweiser-esque beer called Macabee is available for purchase.

The other is a theocratic, klepto-dictatorship with full censorship over the press and internet, where women are forbidden to drive, beaten if they go out in public with sufficient coverings, forbids any sort of religious minority from existing, and graduates more students in religious studies than engineering. Oh, and possessing beer will get you 50 lashes in the public square.

Please tell me if you can't see a difference.

-jon

Re:Boycotting Israel and Israeli technology

[TWR]

You mean that a country founded by people returning to their ancestral homeland after being persecuted world-wide for the past 2,000 years wants to make sure that they aren't going to be a persecuted minority in their own homeland?

Shocking, simply shocking. In tomorrow's question, we're going to wonder why American Indians don't trust the US Government.

-jon

Re:Boycotting Israel and Israeli technology

[Darby]

You mean that a country founded by people returning to their ancestral homeland after being persecuted world-wide for the past 2,000 years wants to make sure that they aren't going to be a persecuted minority in their own homeland?

I believe by "ancestral homeland" you mean the land that they commited genocide on the previous occupants of to steal because their god told them to. The jews had no right to Israel at all. Now I'm not saying that it was necessarily a bad thing to have created Israel, but assuming they had some sort of entitlement to it is dead wrong.
It was only their homeland thousands of years ago because they murdered every man woman and child who already lived there to steal their land.
This is stated quite clearly in the bible. They, in fact, brag about it.
Please spare me the flamebait and racist accusations. This post is neither. It is fact, you can look it up.

Re:Boycotting Israel and Israeli technology

[TWR]

I believe by "ancestral homeland" you mean the land that they commited genocide on the previous occupants of to steal because their god told them to.

As opposed to every other people on the planet, who were crafted out of mud by their gods in the exact spot they happen to inhabit, right?

Your post is flamebait and a racist accusation, as it specifically condemns Jews for a practice engaged in by everyone, everywhere, at every time. Israel is as much the ancestral homeland of the Jews as Ireland is the ancestral homeland of the Irish, wiping out of the Picts notwithstanding. And what percentage of the people living in the Western Hemisphere are actually descendants of the pre-1492 Indians? (and what happened to the peoples who were wiped out by the pre-1492 Indians?)

-jon

Re:Boycotting Israel and Israeli technology

[Darby]

As opposed to every other people on the planet, who were crafted out of mud by their gods in the exact spot they happen to inhabit, right?

No, not at all opposed to that. I in no way implied that this hasn't always been common practice. What isn't common practice today is to take land away from people living on it to give it back to people whose ancestors lived there thousands of years ago. This is what happened with the creation of Israel. My point was that the general consensus seems to be that the Hebrews somehow deserve it but no other races do. Again, I'm not condemning anybody. I'm merely stating the simple fact that claiming Israel is "their ancestral homeland" somehow implies they have a right to it now. So according to your thinking, I can go to a house I used to live in and throw out the current occupants because it is my ancestral home. I also stated that I don't disagree with the creation of Israel. So your statement:

Your post is flamebait and a racist accusation, as it specifically condemns Jews for a practice engaged in by everyone, everywhere, at every time. Israel is as much the ancestral homeland of the Jews as Ireland is the ancestral homeland of the Irish, wiping out of the Picts notwithstanding

is idiotic.

Especially since in your example, the Jews are the Picts, not the current Irish.

Re:Boycotting Israel and Israeli technology

[TWR]

Glad you're not condemning, but you've got some seriously skewed facts going on there.

The return of the Jews to Israel is a bit of a misnomer, as there had always been some Jews who never left. When the first waves of European Jews started to arrive in the 1880's, the population of Palestine was roughly 5% of its current level; it was pretty empty. The Jews who arrived bought the land at often outrageous prices. No one was giving anyone anything.

As Jewish migration increased, two things happened. One, Arabs from neighboring areas moved to work in the factories, farms, and businesses opened by the Jewish settlers. The other was the rise of Arab nationalism in the region. This led to attacks on the Jewish settlers, including the pogrom in Hebron in 1929, driving out a Jewish community that had lived there since biblical times. Jews formed terror groups of their own to strike back at the Arabs (and at the British, who started imposing limits on the number of Jews who could legally enter Palestine in order to placate the Arabs).

As violence raged, the only solution seemed to be separation: split the land into two countries. When the UN proposed the partition, Jews accepted it, Arabs didn't, and the armies of 5 Arab countries attacked the Jews. The leaders of those countries told the Arabs living in Palestine to leave temporarily, so the armies wouldn't kill them by accident. Problem was that the Jews won, and Arabs who fled weren't allowed to return.

So, the Jews bought their land, the Arabs (who now call themselves Palestinians, even though many of them were at best first-generations of the land) fled from the land on the bad advice of corrupt dictators, and Jew Haters worldwide have found a way to blame Jews for something done by someone else.

You can thank me later for the lesson.

-jon

Re:Boycotting Israel and Israeli technology

[Darby]

Glad you're not condemning, but you've got some seriously skewed facts going on there.

My facts are not the least bit skewed. I am very well aware of the history of the region.
Your little history lesson is completely orthogonal to my statements.

One addition to your post:

Problem was that the Jews won, and Arabs who fled weren't allowed to return.

They were doubly fucked at this point. They weren't allowed back by Israel, and their host countries put them in concentration camps, blaming the jews, for the purpose of breeding killers.
I'd say the plan worked, not that it was a good idea.

and Jew Haters worldwide have found a way to blame Jews for something done by someone else.
True, but my point was related to the fact that "Jew Lovers", to use your phrasing, tend to ignore or outright attack any facts or opinions that do so much as imply that Jews are not always right and perfect angels in every way.
In America anyway, a person making any statement made about Israel that might have any slight negative connotation is instantly labeled a Nazi.
Similarly, pride in your ethnicity is encouraged a propagandized on TV unless you're white in which case expressing any pride in that makes you a racist.
No side is Good, (almost) no side is Bad. It is important to be able to communicate about things keeping this in mind.

You can thank me later for the lesson.

No need.

Re:Boycotting Israel and Israeli technology

[TWR]

Oh, and I forgot to mention:

Especially since in your example, the Jews are the Picts, not the current Irish.

No, the Picts are the original Canaanites, the Jews and the Irish are both a people who came along later, wiped out the original inhabitants, and took the land for their homeland.

-jon

Re:Boycotting Israel and Israeli technology

[TWR]

My facts are not the least bit skewed. I am very well aware of the history of the region. Your little history lesson is completely orthogonal to my statements.

No, you made claimed twice that Jews were just GIVEN other people's land in 1948. This is factually false. Jews bought the land in Palestine. Jews bought the weapons (ironically enough, much of it Nazi) to defend themselves when they were attacked. In fact, the oh-so-useful UN stood back and did nothing to protect or help the Jews when the Arabs attacked after rejecting the UN partition plan. So, no, nothing was given.

-jon

Re:Boycotting Israel and Israeli technology

[TWR]

You clearly state that people who fled a war zone had their land stolen.

This is standard practice, world-wide. You support the losing side in a war and leave your land, you lose your land. Nowhere else in the world is this referred to as "stealing land." Once again, Jews are singled out for a behavior engaged in by all people. That's bigoted.

It was formed as a "Jewish State", which is a blatantly racist thing.

Racism has nothing to do with it. There are Jews of every color. Ethiopian Jews are black. The Cochin Jews from India are (shockingly enough) Indian. Jews from Arab countries look like Arabs. China had a Jewish community until the 1930's, and you can still find people in China who look, well, Chinese, and claim descent from the Chinese Jews.

Anyone who is Jewish can become a citizen of Israel automatically. And anyone can convert to Judaism. Non-Jews can live in Israel and get citizenship; it's just not automatic. Compare this to Germany, for example. There are ethnic Turks whose families have been in Germany for two or three generations, yet they aren't citizens. Got any moral outrage left over for that?

Meanwhile, 400,000-600,000 Jews were thrown out of Arab countries after Israel became independant. Is this "racist" (to use your entirely poor word choice)? Where is your outrage? Oh, I forgot; only Jews deserve to be the targets of outrage.

And do you think the eventualy state of Palestine will be welcoming to Jews? Hebron had a Jewish population for about 3000 years, until 1929. In 1968, a few families moved back. The 400 or so Jews living there will almost certainly be removed in any final peace deal. Is it morally correct, oh he who sits in judgement of us all, that the supposed burial place of the Jewish patriarchs will be Judenrein?

So what about those Arabs who never left and didn't fight on the side of the attackers? They certainly do not have equal rights in the country.

They certainly do. Non-Jewish citizens of Israel have voting rights, free speech rights, social services, etc. There are about 10 Arabs in the Kenesset. There is an Arab on the Israeli Supreme Court. The only "restriction" is that Arabs are not automatically drafted into the Israeli army (neither are religious Jews). Many Druze and Bedoin still serve, though.

That said, is there discrimination in Israel? Yes. Jews are, contrary to popular belief in Europe and Muslim countries, people. Just like every place in the world, there is discrimination. But it's not state policy, and the courts have repeatedly slapped down people who are caught discriminating.

The weapons were, in fact, German. German does not equal "Nazi".

Horseshit. In 2002, calling a German a Nazi is a slur. In the 1940's, it was accurate. The planes, guns, etc. used by the Jews to defend Israel were built, designed, and intended for use by the Nazi party.

The right to found a country was given. The ability to defend it wasn't.

The only reason any country exists is due to the people defending its existance. So according to you, the UN gave Israel, well, nothing. Which is a good deal better than what Israel has gotten from the UN since.

-jon

Re:Boycotting Israel and Israeli technology

[TWR]

Poor Jews always singled out as the bad guys. What a crock. What you are demonstrating is how if their actions are pointed to as bad then you will bitch and wine about how they are always singled out. They are given more slack than anybody.

Thanks for showing your true colors. Care to mention how those pesky kikes have all the money?

Most Germans were never Nazis. ... The situation that led to the Nazis being able to take over was, in large part, created by the allies at the end of WWI.

Those poor, misunderstood Germans! Why, any reasonable people would have chosen Hitler under the same circumstances! And anyway, it's really all America, France, and England's fault for beating Germany in WWI. The allies made the Germans elect the Nazis, violate all military treaties, pass the Nuremberg Laws, take over half of Czechoslovakia, annex Austria, and invade Poland! Don't let those Germans lose another war, or who knows what minority they'll try to exterminate next!

I do not know what you mean by Judenrein, but who fucking cares what you call the burial place. The Jewish patriarchs are nothing special. If you are one of those "jews are god's chosen people" nutjobs, then the sickeningness of that attitude won't be apparent to you.

"Judenrein" means "Jew Free" in German. It was what the Nazis were trying to do to Europe, and what most Arab countries have succeeded in doing. And that is what Hebron will be when there is a Palestinian state.

The "nutjobs who say the Jews are the Chosen People" are called, well, Jews. The only branch of Judaism that rejects the notion of being Chosen People is the Reconstructionist branch, which is pretty small. So you're spewing a lot of hate at Jews there.

And Christians quite proudly proclaim that they are the new Chosen People, after the Jews rejected Jesus. So why is it OK for Christians to be Chosen, but not Jews? Oh, right. Bigotry.

These two statements are inconsistent. If there is *any* difference between government policy regarding jewish and non jewish citizens, then discrimination *is* state policy.

You know what's even worse than Israel? You can't even LIVE in Vatican City if you aren't a Catholic. Those bastards!

The basic point I was trying to make which you are illustrating brilliantly is that the typical Iraeli zealot approach is to ignore any bad actions of Israel and to point to unrelated wrongs commited by others and accuse the person of *not* having a problem with that even though that is *not* what is being discussed. I am morally outraged by a lot of things in the modern world. Because I discuss one thing which isn't even a "moral outrage" to me, just pointing out an inconsistency, I am attacking jews.

No, I'd say that when you say that Jews get all the breaks, then I think you're attacking Jews.

The "Israeli Zealot" approach is due to the fact that no one EVER, and I mean, EVER complains about any of these actions by other countries. Do you think that if an observant Hindu was taking part in an "Ask Slashdot", people would ask him leading questions about Kashmir or the current religious riots in NW India (more than 1,000 Muslims killed since February, 100,000 refugees)? Do you see people taking to the streets to protest these attacks, calling all Hindus Nazis? Do you see Muslims attacking Hindus on college campuses world-wide? Of course not. Why is that? The silence from the world is deafening. I would have no problem with criticism of Israel if there was similar treatment of other countries. But there isn't.

-jon

Re:Boycotting Israel and Israeli technology

[TWR]

More bigotry:

Second, the nutjobs I am referring to are the ones who think they are god's chosen people. In strict Jewish law this is taken to mean that it is ok for a jew to rob a non jew, for a jew to cheat a non jew, for a jew to kill a non jew, and essentially that non jews are animals. How is this different than the Arabs attitude to the jews? It really is a simple pot kettle black case in these circumstances.

This is a standard anti-Semitic libel. There is no such anything in Jewish law. In fact, the exact opposite is true; Jewish law commands Jews to treat non-Jews who live among them well, "for you were strangers in a land not yours." Other laws speak of making sure not to do ill to non-Jews, lest it reflect poorly on Jews in general.

Anything else you'd care to make up? Or would you just like to quote from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

-jon

Re:2. A motorcycle enthusiast;

[atrowe]

"Why a Harley? Aren't they a little big and heavy?"

So are most Linux users.

IBM and Hercules?

[Jay Maynard]

(I'm the maintainer of Hercules, an open source emulator for IBM mainframes that runs on Linux and Windows.)

You've mentioned Hercules in your column a couple of times, both quite favorably. Thanks!

One industry analyst from Germany has claimed repeatedly that IBM is getting ready to slap down Hercules with its lawyers, on the basis of some unspecified violations of their intellectual property rights. He's said that it's not just patent infringement, but refuses to go into exactly what else.

What effect would you think that taking such an action would have on IBM once the open source community finds out?

Thread migration

[Bobo_the_Chimp]

One of the advantages of OpenMosix is that programs do not need recompilation or any special design techniques to take advantage of clustering.

This design goal isn't always realized though, because OpenMosix works with processes as the atomic work-distribution unit, and not treads. ie. OpenMosix can't migrate multithreaded apps.

Is thread support planned for *any* future version of OpenMosix?

a mature kernel?

[bcrowell]

Great software projects may (should?) eventually mature to the point where they don't need to change anymore. A classic example is TeX, whose version number is converging to pi. Is there a point at which the Linux kernel will become a mature project, and most of you smart kernel hackers can turn your talents to other open-source work? As a desktop user, it seems to me that the kernel has already reached that point; the only time I ever run into low-level system bugs, it's always X bugs, not kernel bugs. Is it getting to the point (e.g., with virtual memory stuff) where any change you can make will cause the kernel to perform just a little worse for some people, and just a little better for others?

I can't help thinking that the Linux kernel may be a little like string theory in physics. String theory tends to attract young people who are the most talented of all, and you have to wonder whether their talents are being wasted, since string theory might not even reflect reality.

Re:a mature kernel?

[Elbereth]

This may be off-topic. However, the Linux kernel is an interesting topic.

If Linux were a microkernel, then I'd probably say that it could actually be "finished", as far as any software project can be said to be finished. A microkernel basically provides the minimum necessary services for an operating system, such as a scheduler and memory management.

Monolithic kernels, which provide much more than absolutely necessary, do not seem able to achieve any degree of being finished. Look at khttpd, the the kernel httpd implementation. Is this necessary? No, of course not, not even in anyone's wildest dreams. Is it nifty or useful? Sure. Could we stick anything else in the kernel that's nifty or useful? Sure. So, by my way of thinking, there is no time that a "bloated", (to use a loaded word - maybe "inclusive" or "feature-rich" would be better) monolithic kernel could ever be close to finished.

Specific parts of the kernel may very well be finished, with only tweaks and bug-fixes necessary. Most drivers are in this state. SCSI, TCP/IP packet filtering, SMP (especially high-end SMP with 8+ processors), and the filesystem code are in constant flux. None of them have stayed even remotely similar between any recent major kernel versions (2.0 through 2.4). However, look at how stable the Alpha port is or how little the IDE subsystem has changed from 1.0 to 2.4 (one major change, which basically added EIDE support and Ultra DMA).

So, there's no prayer of the kernel being finished, but there is a good chance that the SCSI subsystem will be finally etched in stone, much like the IDE subsystem.

Question for "Dimwit"

[Faramir]

These are great questions, Dimwit! (I must say, I feel a little odd writing your handle and hping it doesn't sound like sarcasm!).

A question back to you (and others): do you see any inherent division between science and the G-d of the Torah? Or between science and "God" as the English call it, or "Allah" as Muslims call it, etc.?

Re:Question for "Dimwit"

[Webmonger]

Err, Jews don't actually call the supreme being "gee, underscore, dee". They just feel (or at least some do) that it's profane to write the name of the holy one in books that are not holy. So they write "G_d" the same way people write, "What the f___?"

People of faith in Free Software

[sombragris]

I understand that you're a Talmudic scholar. This is interesting in itself since most of the highest profile members of the Free Software community usually express anti-religious ideas or are from religious traditions drastically at variance with the Judeo-Christian traditions (ie, neo-paganism and oriental misticysm).

How is that you relate your Jewish faith with the work as a Free Software developer, and the central tenets of the Free Software movement?

Re:question?

[MrResistor]

Because it's against Jewish law to speak the name of God. In this context it's probably questionable whether the law applies, since this could be considered written, and it doesn't seem like the prohibition applies to written works. Also, God could be considered a generic term, as opposed to IHVH (however you choose to pronounce it), which is quite specific and definately prohibited (and thus the "Jehovah" scene in Monty Python's "Life of Brian"). But, better safe than sorry.

I am not a Jew, though, so if I'm mistaken in anything I've said here, I'd appreciate a correction.

Practical OpenMosix

[bozoman42]

What are some of the most interesting computing projects you've heard about using MOSIX that could pretty much only happen using MOSIX (as opposed to "plain old" PVM/MPI/etc)?

Re:Talmud is JEWISH

[yoz]

fuck i've been a reform jew for 24 years and i never heard that be used (of course, i never had a bar mitzvah either)...

That's incredible. Thanks for reinforcing all the Orthodox stereotypes of Reform Jews.

The name, innit. He's a poser.

[Colin Smith]

A Harley Davidson isn't so much a motorcycle as a tractor with two wheels and "a lot of extra chrome".

If you've actually ridden Harleys and other bikes you'll know that Harley Davidson survive pretty much solely by marketing their name and selling you the Harley Davidson lifestyle.

Cruisers are really just toys to be brought out on sunny Sundays to pose round town.

No more |propaganda|

[why-is-it]

What do you think about ongoing conflict in middle east?

No offense, but what sort of question is that? I don't imagine that any reasonable person would be in favour of the on-going conflict. Nor do I see how any decent sort of person would claim that the death count (on all sides) is not yet high enough. The violence is so self-defeating. As we brutalize others, so do we brutalize ourselves.

What do you think about massacre that Isreali soldiers commited in refugee camp in Jenin?

Why not ask him how he feels about the suicide bombers who deliberately choose to attack non-combatants?

Could we leave the partisanship aside and discuss things relevant to the /. crowd?

Nah, you want a nice little speed triple you do.

[Colin Smith]

http://www.triumph.co.uk/

Re:Not about Linux at all...(update)

[Dimwit]

Sorry to reply to my own post - let me clarify something here. When I say "Creationism", I don't mean right-wing dinosaurs-never-existed Creationism. I mean "the existance of an intelligent Creator and (at least somewhat) planned design for the Universe, as opposed to pure Atheism."

Sorry, just wanted to clear that up.

a liittle clarity on the Jewish p.o.v.

[space oddity]

I have not ever been tempted to post on /. but there is always a first time.

There have been a lot of posts about conflicts or lackof with Halachik (orthodox) Judaism and tech. I'm sure Moshe knows his stuff and I'm also sure that he would be embarassed to be called a Talmud scholar. However, could he/you perhaps spend some time dispelling myths and explaining facts about some of the issues. I don't think a discussion on using email as a shaliach (third party) for divorce papers is necessary or the difference between "G-D" on paper and "God" on a computer screen (which is a comlex issue. But ideas about how the sabbath fits in with practical life and place of God in his personal life would be illuminating.

Re:question?

[The Wing Lover]

Here's an answer from jewfaq.org.

In short, Orthodox Jews can not print the name of God on paper (actually, they can, but then they are forbidden from destroying or defacing that paper). Recent decisions from whoever it is decides these things state that writing on a computer is not considered permanent (so, for example, you could type "GOD" on a computer and backspace over it), but observant Jews like to write "G-D" even so, because it's possible that someone else will print out the page/message and deface or destroy it

Re:2. A motorcycle enthusiast;

[thesolo]

-atrowe: Card-carrying Mensa member. I have no toleranse for stupidity.

Oh, the irony of that sig...

Useless use of linux

[the_real_tigga]

What is the most useless / weirdest / hackish / funny "feature" that you ever saw on a linux machine or in a proposed kernel patch?

What would you like to see on linux that would fit that category?

Re:Talmud is JEWISH

[TWR]

Incorrect. The Talmud is a collection of rabinical arguments on how to properly implement the law in the Bible. The Koran is the Bible for Islam.

The Haddath (sayings of the Prophet) would be closer in spirit to the Talmud.

-jon

Fast compile server

[Snake]

Like every decently equipped developer, you have a compile server. However, you recently (2 months ago, IIRC) said that you wanted to accelerate the speed of compilation.

What solution have you used?

Did you look at using ram disks?

Talmudic programming / geeky Talmud study

[sethg]

And, just to be totally random, have you found that your Talmudic studies have made you, as a person interfacing with other people, more easy to use, powerful, and fault-tolerant?

I think my own (extremely limited) experience with Talmud study helped me in my programming work, because...

One of the cardinal (ahem) rules of Talmud study is you have to pay attention to the exact meaning of every word. A good study partner won't let you say, "Well, I think this sentence means X, so let's move on" -- the partner will say, "How do you know? How does this prefix on this word here fit your interpretation?" Since the Talmud is written in a fifteen-hundred-year-old language, without vowels or punctuation, the beginning/intermediate student (like me) has to make a lot of effort to just get the plain meaning of the text.

Now, as it turns out, this skill is very helpful when you're reading someone else's code, particularly code written in the "Real Programmers can write FORTRAN in any language" style -- because the computer will pay attention to every (uncommented, non-dead-code) word in the program, and if you gloss over the meaning of some line that the computer interprets differently, you're in for a world o' hurt. I wrote a little more on this subject here. (N.B.: I'm not Joel, he just posted an email from me.)

I think it works the other way, too: among geeks with some knowledge of formal logic and logical terminology, some Talmudic discussions become much easier. Sometimes it's a helluva lot more concise to translate a Talmudic sentence into algebra or pseudocode than into English.

OK, here's my question for Moshe: Can you recommend a "Geek's Guide to Talmud Study?" (If not, can you write one? :-)

Cool name

[ObviousGuy]

What's it like to have a name straight out of Star Wars?

Han Solo
Watto
Moshe Bar
Boba Fett
Mace Windu

Re:second creation

[MrResistor]

I remember vaguely that there were 2 versions of creation, but as I said, it's been a while. I don't remember man being first though. I guess it's time to read it again.

Re:Israel, Palestine, return from dispersion, Talm

[Malcontent]

"Bottom line. It's not a simple situation, it can't be explained while standing on one foot. It takes weeks worth of research just to get a fledgling idea of what this conflict is about. "

You have certainly laid out the israeli justification for occupying palestenians and many people disagree with the "facts" as you see them. I suppose that is to be expected.

personally I think the problem is much simpler then trying to dig throughout history and simply point to the present facts.

1) The israeli people are conducting a military occupation of the palestenian people.
2) The palestenian people do not enjoy being occupied by the israelis.
3) The israeli people are building settlements on land that palestenians consider their own (the israelis claim it's land). The palestenians don't enjoy this fact.
4) The nation of israel reserves the right to kill, invade, bulldoze, arrest, detain, torture, place under curfew, assinate, or otherwise do anything it wants to any palestenian it wants. The palestenians don't enjoy this very much either.

The palestenians don't enjoy the treatment they get at the hands of the israelis and they fight back any way they can. They are outgunned, out numbered, out financed, out organized yet they persist.

I know that if I was living under military occupation by a country I would fight back with any means I could so I can definately see their point of view.

...SkipStone, links, Amaya, Mnemonic, w3c...

[leonbrooks]

There's a lot of them out there.

True, but...

[leonbrooks]

...you're labouring the obvious. (-:

The bottom line: Linux can be excellent on Shabbat

[leonbrooks]

In particular, because unlike, say, Windows... a sysadmin won't be asked to `tend the fire' as often.

The bottom line for whether something fits observance of Shabbat is `does it distract me from G-d?'

Stricter flavours of Judaism hew to a massive collection of rules about how far you can walk with/without shoes, blah blah, but G-d says nothing so fine-grained or picky. Liberal Jews might rock up to the synagogue on that day - or not - but the rest of the rules are basically ignored, IMHO they're evicting the baby with the bathwater, but that's their choice. IIRC, the rule says `no touch fire on Shabbat.' Presumably this includes dealing with arson. Non-Shabbat holy days are less strict.

To join the chorus: no, I'm not Jewish.

It cannot fail... would Moshe agree?

[leonbrooks]

...as long as it is science being done, and not religion.

Sadly, most science is undertaken with an a priori committment to materialism: first, we assume that there is no G-d, then working from this assumption, we do science which `proves' that there is no G-d. Like, d'oh? Many leading scientists, like Shapiro, and the late Gould, have clearly stated in a variety of ways that this is the process which they use. Which means that they're doing religion, not science.

G-d has some interesting properties, from a scientific POV. He is often measurable, but not predictable. He manages the predicting, says Torah in no uncertain terms. The mistake most people make in looking for evidence of creation is in looking for perfection (`the problem of evil' is a common term for it). In light of explicit statements from G-d that this world is damaged (and as a consequence of our actions, no less), one would expect this to be an exercise in futility. Nevertheless, the evidence that people run across is occasionally too clear and direct to ignore.

My question for Moshe (Moses, Musa) is: given that significant intervention in history is an essential consequence of any effective G-d, and in particular the G-d of Torah, where do you stand on the question?

Sorry, no loophole

[leonbrooks]

As far as I can tell, there's a big loophole in Genesis that allows for Evolution. Essentially, the loophole can be summed up in the question "how long is a day?"

Genesis 1 consistently uses a form which reads, transliterated, `and the evening was, and the morning was, day N'. You can't read this, in a straightforward manner, as thousands, millions or billions of years. Genesis 2 reiterates the creation from a different POV: Adam's instead of G-d's, which is de rigeur for ancient Hebrew. God tells us, `evening and morning,' who are you to say, `no, millennia or aeons?'

I've read the Bible, but I recall that there was enough ambiguity and strangeness in Genesis to allow room for things like Evolution if the reader was willing to put some though[t] into it

Yah, like Hebrews 4:4 `For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.' Unsurprisingly, this is referenced to Genesis 2:2 in every version I can find. Even if you stick to the OT, you regularly run aground on definite, enumerated statements like Exodus 20:8-11.

[your choice here]

[Hektor_Troy]

What do you think about [your choice here]? Is [your choice here] the best way to do [your choice here], or would [your choice here] be a better way to accomplish [your choice here]? How does your wife feel about [your choice here]? Does she even care? While on the subject, what is your favorite [your choice here]? What [your choice here] is the worst? And what [your choice here] is [your choice here]?

Last but not least - is "little wife night" and "wife night" exist outside of Denmark, and if so - what nights do you practice this?

The measure of a day

[leonbrooks]

How long is a "day" when there isn't even a rotating earth or a sun yet?

I'll let the text explain it to you, the first words of the Bible: `In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.'

In case you missed it: before creation, there were no days. Note that God made days on day one. LILO for worlds! Note also that days were created before the sun was, and very probably for a good reason.

Of course, as an atheist, I don't see this as evidence of creationism and evolution being compatable. I see it as evidence of the story being likely made up by ordinary humans at a time when people didn't realize what causes days and nights

This is your tautology: I believe there is no God, therefore no evidence I see can be evidence of God.

Ignoring your tautology, for the sake of a good rant, it's still a pretty vacuous statement to make, given how deeply many very ancient civilisations were into astronomy. These guys built stuff like Baalbek and Sacsauaman, they weren't dumb bunnies.

Back in this century, did you know that dendrochronology has shown the Yellowstone forests to have grown contemporaneously? That WW2 aircraft were found under 200m of ice layers on Greenland after only 50 years (ta ta ice core interpretation, not that self forming O2 varves had done that idea any good)? That fresh wood has been found deep in Sydney sandstone? Peppered moths are a furphy like the horse sequence? Stanley Miller has proven his own `primitive atmosphere' experiments to be dead ends? And so on.

AFAICT, every single `evidence' for long ages has seen more than one counterexample implying extreme youth. Robert Gentry's unrefuted (no, they're not Radon 222) Polonium haloes imply a metter of seconds-to-minutes for huge amounts of base granite, which is much more in line with creation in days than `creation' in gigayears.

It's probably also time to find out about genetics and statistics. (-:

Re:The measure of a day

[DunbarTheInept]

#1 - I didnt' say people back then were dumb. I used the word "ignorant". It doesn't mean the same thing. They just didn't know any better to realize such things as "the sun is the center of the solar system and the earth goes around it." That doesn't make them dumb. The amount of analysis of planetary movement necessary to realize that is not trivial, and for one thing you needed a lot more data than they had the ability to collect at the time about movement of the planets. I'm not calling them dumb. I'm calling them ignorant.

Now, TODAY, anyone who still believes in a 7-day creation, TODAY I would call such a person dumb. Sorry if that is offensive, but to say otherwise I would have to lie.

Another flaw is your failure to understand tha atheism isn't a claim, nor a belief. It's the default hypothesis when evidence is lacking, and there hasn't been enough evidence yet to sway from that default hypothesis. We don't often see it as a default hypothesis because we are indoctrinated to believe in a god since early childhood, such that anything else now seems like a deviation from the norm. But that is culture speaking, not logic.

Naturally, in an informal way

[leonbrooks]

It contains no pigs, crayfish or other scavengers/carnivores, only references to them. AFAIK it hasn't seen a rabbinical blessing, but you could print it out on kosher paper using kosher ink and probably get that formally approved.

Re:Thanks, but we live in the present.

[TWR]

So, which Indian tribe native to Fayetteville, Arkansas are you a member of?

What, you're not an American Indian? Well, get the fuck off their land. You're just a cracker without a conscience.

-jon

Re:Vast ignorance of Irish history, legend, ethnic

[TWR]

I apologize for my mistake. That's what I get for not doing enough research. Thanks for the correction.

But my point stands. Substitute "Firbolgs" or "Sidhe" for "Picts" and you have a valid comparison. The Irish of today aren't the first people ever to set foot on the island. Yet no one questions their ties to Ireland. Meanwhile, idiots world-wide actually believe Arafat (born and raised in Cairo, Egypt) when he says that the Palestinians are the direct descendants of Philistines and therefore should have all of "Palestine" for themselves.

-jon

The measure of dumbness

[leonbrooks]

I didnt' say people back then were dumb. I used the word "ignorant".

Oh, well, yay, there's a big improvement. Not.

Ignorant people do not slice up and cart around 2000-tonne blocks of stone as a hobby. Note that the 1100 tonne stone pictured cannot be moved by any number of sweating slaves, since no known material would make strong enough staves to get the required number of slaves near it, and the stone would break if they tried stuff like rollers.

They just didn't know any better to realize such things as "the sun is the center of the solar system and the earth goes around it."

...and speaking of ignorance... yes, they did. That was pretty clever of them because without excellent telescopes it is basically impossible to distinguish between a model involving Earth orbiting the Sun, and one involving the Sun orbiting the Earth and dragging the planets with it. Tycho Brahe proposed just such a model.

There's obviously a few gaping holes in your understanding of history. They not only understood heliocentrism, they knew enough to promptly adjust their calendars to track changes in astronomical conditions.

Because modern astronomy (and other sciences) is generally sold on gradualism, a consequence of a priori committment to materialism, they have a hard time even admitting that serious changes could take place within a historical timescale in our own solar system. A similar a priori commitment dooms atheistic Egyptologists to using the broken Sothic Cycle for dating, which throws their results out to the tune of up to 1000 years, and we're only talking maybe 4000 years ago.

Another flaw is your failure to understand tha atheism isn't a claim, nor a belief. It's the default hypothesis when evidence is lacking, and there hasn't been enough evidence yet to sway from that default hypothesis.

That's not a failure. You're describing agnosticism. Atheism is not a default condition, it is the deliberate denial of theism. You will find that your arbitrarily atheistic stance is a consequence of assuming materialism without proof.

We don't often see it as a default hypothesis because we are indoctrinated to believe in a god since early childhood, such that anything else now seems like a deviation from the norm.

Neither position can be a default. Each position is a definite statement, ergo cannot be taken until it has been considered - except ignorantly.

I'm not calling them dumb. I'm calling them ignorant.

That's very, uh, brave of you.

So... your hypothesis is apparently that mankind existed for millions of years in intelligent ignorance, and only in the last few thousand years or so has knowledge rushed in to fill the void? What evidence do you call in support of this assertion?

Re:The measure of dumbness

[DunbarTheInept]

Ignorant people do not slice up and cart around 2000-tonne blocks of stone

Of course they do. Ignorance is not the same thing as lack of intelligence, something your tone in your post seems to imply you don't realize. Ignorance is about not knowing things. Lack of intelligence is about not knowing how to put together the knowlege you do have in order to derive some more knowlege.

...and speaking of ignorance... yes, they did

Speaking of ignorance it should have been obvious that the context was not about all the ancient peoples, but specificly those that wrote the bible's creation story. THEY obviously didn't know, since they believed an earth-centric creation story.

[Snip pointless bit where you attribute a belief to atheists w.r.t. Egypt that not all atheists necessarily have.]

Atheism [dictionary.com] is not a default condition, it is the deliberate denial of theism [dictionary.com].

Check the same dictionary and see that denial doesn't have to mean belief. It can mean refusal to believe. Which means atheism isn't any different than the stance one would have had without even knowing what this alleged god concept is. Agnosticism, using the modern definition of a 50/50 fence-sitter (rather than the classical one where it refers to those who don't think knowlege is even possible) Isn't possible without having heard of god. You are using a model where you think of agnosticsm as the zero point, and atheism as being off in one direction while theism is in the other. It doesn't work that way. Atheism is an endpoint on that scale because it's not possible to be more atheistic than just saying "I don't believe any of the tales people have told me about god." There isn't any further you can go in that "direction".

Nice try, but I've seen that faulty dictionary argument used too many times before to count.

Consider the following statements:
"I own three elephants that each cost me $5.00."
"I can eat 25 heads of lettuce in 2 minutes."
"You owe me $5000.00, but you just don't remember what from. Pay up."
Now, were you thinking on any of those subjects before I brought them up? I suspect the amswer is no. Do you believe any of the above statements? I suspect the answer is no. So, did I just succeed in giving you three new beliefs by stating things in your presence that you don't believe? Did I just succeed in giving you extra burden of proof you didn't have before? Of course not.

Theists saying things in my presense that I don't believe doesn't give me any extra burden of proof I wouldn't have had before. From a burden of proof standpoint, there is no signifigant difference between someone who has never heard of god and someone you've just told about god who then says "I don't see any reason yet to believe you."

Re:The measure of dumbness

[leonbrooks]

Ignorant people do not slice up and cart around 2000-tonne blocks of stone

Ignorance is about not knowing things.

Yes, like how to slice and move 2000 tonne blocks of stone. We need stuff like braced, pressurised skirts and a fleet of bulldozers. How did they do it? Please don't be ignorant enough to suggest ant-power, rollers, greased planks or ice; stick to answers with at least a hint of practical engineering in them.

it should have been obvious that the context was not about all the ancient peoples, but specificly those that wrote the bible's creation story. THEY obviously didn't know, since they believed an earth-centric creation story.

The tablet footnotes indicate that the initial part of the records was dictated to Adam. Starlight and Time is another geocentric creation story, sort of. But you can't call Russell Humphries ignorant, since he's made major contributions to all manner of physics fields, and Sandia aren't in the habit of hiring idiot researchers and keeping them on for 30 or so years.

Re:The measure of dumbness

[DunbarTheInept]

So, you still are unwilling to drop the subject of Egypt even though it has nothing to do with people who wrote the bible?

Re:Israel, Palestine, return from dispersion, Talm

[Malcontent]

"When it comes to the middle east, nothing is simple, and everything is about history"

That is precicely the problem (that and religion). The palestenians and the israelis are too busy looking backwards and spend no time looking at the future. I don't want to spend too much countering your points one by one but suffice it to say you seem to be spreading the standard Israeli propaganda line. I personally don't like it when the israelis try to justify their vile actions by comparing themselves to us. The US is going to compensate every single civilians unjustly harmed in Afghanistan and will spend billions rebuilding that country. When is Israel going to compensate the civilians it killed unjustly? At least it could make an effort for god's sake, it's not like they will pay for it, the US taxpayers will get stuck with that bill just like they pay for all the weapons used to kill palestenians.

The problem is this. Both people believe that they have a god given right to live in the same plot of land. Both of them believe that the other are invaders and evil. Cloaked in their righteousness they can rationalize the most despicable, inhuman, evil and vile acts. And both of them have chosen to elect bloodthirsty men who apparently take great joy in killing the opposition.

You list off the vile acts done by palestenians while finding excuses for state sponsored massacres, torture, and yes terrorism of civilian populations when it's done by the israelis. It's easy isn't it? One side says we commit inhuman acts because we are defending ourselves the other side says we commit inhuman acts becasue we are being occupied and humiliated and denied basic human rights. Both are wrong and neither party is willing to live side by side with the other.

Unless the world steps in (it won't becasue the US won't let it happen) this will end in genocide. The palestenians will never enjoy living under israeli occupation, the israelis will never lift the occupation, it will instead kill every palestenian who will not be subjigated.

Re:Israel, Palestine, return from dispersion, Talm

[Malcontent]

Not one thing you said justifies anything Israel does. You seem to think it does but it does not to me.
No country should torture period end of sentence. No country should occupy other people it's an evil act. You can call it whatever you want, you can try and justify it a thousand ways but in the end palestenians are denied basic human rights under israeli rule and that is wrong.

I think its very funny some of the things you use to justify the actions of israel. I especially like the one about

"BTW: I chalange you to prove that anything Israel has done to the Palastinians is unique. i.e. is not done by surounding countries with minority arab poplulations. (a hint, this is a violent area of the world, with or without Israel)"

I guess it's ok to kill people if other people are killing them too nice.

As for compensation. The negotiations are not finished yet but US is willing to give every wrongfully injured civilian in afghanistan $10,000.00. This includes people who had their houses accidentally destroyed even if no physical harm came to them. I would like to see israel do the same thing. Every civillian they killed and every house they destroyed they should give 10 thousand dollars to. Everybody who was tortured in prison should get 20 thousand. Every person arrested and held without charges or access to attroneys should get five thousand. On top of that Israel should rebuild rammalah and jenin from teh ground up. It's only fair to compensate the innocent civilians.

It does not count to shoot people and then try and pretend you are doing good by stopping their bleeding. They would not be in your hospitals if you didn't shoot them in the first place. Same with the cigarettes bit. Surround a city, invoke a curfew, kill anybody who dares to roam the streets, cut off the water supply, and then claim you are good guys because you gave them cigarettes? What kind of twisted logic is that?

Like I said. You are willing to rationalize any evil act done by israelis. This is the crux of the problem. Both sides can somehow justify committing inhumanly evil acts. It's sick.

Re:Israel, Palestine, return from dispersion, Talm

[Malcontent]

"I've given you facts, dates, UN friggen statistics. I can even back them up with a bibliography if you choose to ask. All you are doing is making some assumed, and emotional, alegations. PROVE IT!! Because the stuff your saying sounds allot more like propoganda from where I'm sitting. Please prove me wrong."

Prove what? What do you need me to prove? let me think of some things I said.

1) The palestenians live under israeli military occupation. You need proof of this?
2) Israel routinely kills palestenian civilians and does not compensate them.
3) Israel reserves the right to invade palestenian towns whenever it wants.
4) Israel assinates palestenian leaders.
5) Israel has a stated policy of torture in place (by the way I heard that from B. Netanyahu on tv).
6) Israel arrests and holds palestenians without trial or charges.

Are you actually disputing any of those statements?

"You for your part are obviosly starting from a heavily biased POV. You keep bringing up israeli torture and shootings. Palistinians do that too. They even get parades in their honor if they do it a whole lot. BTW: do you think the PA will make this kind of restitution too?"

If you go back and read my posts you will see that I am accusing both people of inhuman acts of death and torture. Arafat is a terrorist and Sharon is a war criminal who is responsible for multiple massacres. Both of these people have devolved into such a despicable animal state that they have chosen bloodthirsty leaders who they hope will commit unspeakable horrors on the hated enemy. I have repeatedly stated that both the PA and the Israeli govt are barbaric, sick, disgusting piles of shit intent on killing as many people as they can whether they be innocent, women, children, sick, lame, or whatnot. I do not excuse either party from their actions.

"If they do then so be it."

So be what? It's OK to target civilians? that is what you seem to be saying here.

"Have you heard anything about how they will determine who was rongfully hurt in afganistan? And seing as how the average afgani makes less than a dollar a week, what the hell are they going to do with $10,000? that's about a 300 year salary over night. Sounds like a quick way to make a couple people really rich, really fast. "

Apparently there will be some sort a commission set up. I am sure many people will apply and I am sure amny of them will be rejected. I suppose they will take their money and try to rebuild their lives. It's not like they are going to blow it on britney spears CDs.

"Also since you think the US's behavior is so noble, do you realize who they are putting back in power? The same people that the taliban kicked out in the first place! Not because the taliban are religios nuts, they are. But because the former goverment was going on genocidal rampages and killing people. We may not like the taliban, hell the Afgani's and the rest of the world may not like them. But when they took power they were hailed as heros, for liberating that country from opression. Let it be a lesson, it's no good to trade one dictator for another, even if the new one is your own.)"

I don't dispute for one minute that the US is at least partially responsible for the rise of taliban in the first place. The taliban took over after the corrupt govt was thrown out but not right away in the mean time there was a big struggle for control by the various factions. Somehow the taliban got a hold of helicopters and fighters (my guess is that they were supplied by either the US or one of our proxies) and ended up "winning" the war. They drove the opposition north and took over the country. We then supported them by bribing them to stop poppy production and to let us run a oil pipeline. They were our buddies. So I am not excusing the role of US in that regard but I still remain convinced that innocents should be compensated.

Re:Israel, Palestine, return from dispersion, Talm

[Malcontent]

"Israel does not make it it's intent to kill civilians, if it does it does so accidentialy."

People keep saying this but I don't believe it. I don't think they care very much how many civilians they kill and the number of civilians killed every year bears this point out. I have seen coverage of Israeli fighters launching missiles into crowded citites, helicopter gunships strafing inside citites, and tanks shelling inside of cities. These are not the actions of people wanting to avoid civilian casualties. I don't think the IDF sees palestenians as human beings in the same way that in our history we did not see black people as human beings. To draw an anology from American history "the only good palestenian is a dead palestenian".

"Israel goes in because it has to. Israelie's have NO desire to babysit the Palastinians"

If that is true (and I don't think it is) they can do one of two things. 1) lift the occupation. Pull out all troops to the border, seal it off and let the palestenians be. 2) Agree on a date on which palestine will be an independent state.

Since it is unwilling to do either one I will not believe you when you say they don't want to babysit the palestenians. What they want is the land the palestenians live on and they want to remove the palestenians from that land. Either by killing them or moving them on to other countries (or reservations). They want to do the palestenians what we did to the indians. It's the exact same thing.

"also think they just need one more asasination... (now this is MY oinion)"

First of all it's illegal under international law. You can't try and justify the settlements with international law and then advocate assasination. Secondly killing arafat will accomplish nothing. He is an old useless man. Whoever replaces him will be a younger more violent man. Sharon knows this and that's why he won't kill him.

"The Israeli's at least show more intrest in building up an economy and living confortably, it's leverage and can be used to make them good neighboors. "

Isreal will not allow the palestenians do the same thing. They impede commerce with curfews, store closures, shutting off the food and water supplies, destroying shops and houses and of course killing people. They do this to keep the palestenians poor and destitue which supplies them with a ready stream of cheap labor to clean their toilets and to bus their tables. It's all calculated.

"the Holocost may be history to you, but to Jews it never ended,"

Not too long ago there was a movie on NBC called "uprising" it was about a rag-tag group of jews fighting the mighty Nazi army with home made bombs and rifles. I thoght to my self it's funny how history repeats itself. When the UN created israel I bet it never taught the israelis would act like the nazis.

"My point is that peace may not be possible."

Peace is possible under a couple of different scenarios.
1) Sharon completes his genocide. Kills all the palestenians and removes the ones he does not kill to reservations. If sharon does not live long enough netanyahu would be glad to pick up the torch and continue on with the ethnic cleansing.
2) Sharon and Arafat die and are replaced by sane people who are able to convince their people that peace is better then war.
3) Jesus comes back.
4) United states puts it's foot down and smack down the PA and the Israeli govt. It draws a line on the sand and says "this side is israel and this side is palestine, anybody who disagrees will be attacked by the US govt" and then puts US soldiers on the border will people calm down.

Like you said peace is not possible.

No Pope, but...

[acb]

Judaism hasn't elected a Pope, but it has recently merged with Hinduism, creating 900 million Hinjews. Or so the news reports say.

Re:Israel, Palestine, return from dispersion, Talm

[Malcontent]

"They did. Camp David, 1998. for 7 years preceding that 95% of all palastinians, 40% of the west bank, and 97% of the gaza strip were under exclusive PA control. At Camp David Barak (who the arab press still calls a Butcher, though I have no idea why) and Clinton offered all that pluss 100% of gaza and 95% of the west bank, pluss israels only oil wells, natural water springs, land in israel proper, 3/4 of Jeruselam, and internationalization of the TempleMount to make up for the missing 5%. Arafat walked away without any discussion or counter offer. To quote President Bill Clinton, refering to Camp David "Arafat made a fool of me." "

Once again this is the israeli point of view. If you listen to other people they seem to have a different recollection of what happened. They blame Barak for lying to them and then stabbing them in back. I guess it's a matter of who you choose to believe. Since that event Israel has never even come close to making a deal so I tend to think that this deal was not actually on the table. There is nothing preventing israel from lifting the occupation unilatirally or simply saying on the record "on such and such a day there will be a nation called palestine". It's been decades since the israeli army starting occupying the palestenians if they didn't want to they could have ended this at any time. They never have and I submit that that's because they don't want to.

"So I suppose it's also big Jewish conspiracy that Israeli-Arabs have the highest living standards of any Arab group in the entire middle east (baring oil princes, who hoard their money, instead of feeding their starving people). It's probably also a massive plot that Israel kept giving money to the PA untill nearly a year into the war? Oh and my other favorit plot is that it was the jews who kept he palastinians poor during the 20 years they were under Jordainian rule! "

It's not a conspiracy simply a national policy. A healthy palestenian economy will have devestating effects on the israeli position. It will legitimize the palestenian cause, it will lead to a palestenian state, it will give greater incentive to europeans and americans to protect their markets (and therefore the palestenians) and last but not least it will dry up a pool of very cheap labor for israel. As for the standard of living I highly doubt the israeli arabs have a higher standard of living then the people in abu dhabi, kuwait, or even saudi arabia. Besides they are second class citizens anyway no matter how much money they make.

"These are two indigenous peoples (counting back 300 years)."

Now you are repeating what I said. There are two sets of people who bbelieve they have a birthright to the same land. Right now israelis have the military might (and the backing of the US) to kill everybody who lives on that land or at least kick them out of their homes and cities and move them into reservations, refugee camps, or concentration camps. I am fully conviced that this a very real possiblity. A second genocide or a mass dislocation of people from their homes and cities. It's an evil thing to do but evil has sunk into the soul of the israeli people.

"Sharon didn't have anything to do with Sabra and Shlita"

Yes he did and denying it does not make undo what he did. Hopefully the war crimes tribunal will act and hold him responsible.

"And I should also mention, under jewish law your not allowed to kill the palastinians to take their land. "

Oh man that's a funny one. I laughed so hard when I read this. But then again they have a built in excuse to kill the palestenians and take their land they simply claim that god promised that land to the jews ans voila kill with a clear conscience. Nice heh?

"It's possible, just not in any sort of pleasent way. Whether there will be Peace or War it's going to be a bloody one."

I stated my thoughts on how peace can be accomplished. It will be bloody as hell and the mass murder of palestenians by the israelis will forever be compared to the treatment of jews by hitler. That's my prediction.

Re:Israel, Palestine, return from dispersion, Talm

[Malcontent]

I want to thank you for this conversation. It has confirmed for me that some sort of evil has invaded the soul of the israelis and remains there festering. I don't say this to critisize you but to warn you. Before you claim that I am picking on you, believe me when I say that the soul of the palestenians are also equally infected (I have repeatedly comdemned them as well). I find it ironic that a place so sacred to the three major religions of the world should be so infested with evil and I am sure there is a deeper meaning in all this that I can not grasp.

I have confronted you with the following facts.

1) You are militarily occupying another people.
2) you routinely deny basic human rights to people living under your occupation by denying them food, water and access to medical care. This view is also shared by amnesty international, doctors without borders, pysicians for human rights etc).
3) You routinely kill innocent civilians and do not compensate the families. Hundreds of them have been killed in the past year alone.
4) You torture palestenians and have torture as a stated policy of your govt.
5) You routinely arrest people and hold them without charges or access to lawyers in order to torture them.

None of these facts are deniable and all are not acceptable in a civilized society. These are the acts of a evil nation and there can be no justification of these acts under any circumstances.

You have found a way to excuse all of these acts with an astounding series of rationalizations. You quoted the Talmud, you claimed that they would have been worse off living under somebody elses occupation, you claimed self defense, you claimed that they are liars. Even if all these things are true none of them justify the evil acts you are committing, none of them.

You need to face the evil in your soul. Don't try to justify evil acts of yourselves by trying to find excuses.

BTW self defense is a silly excuse. You are a powerful nation with the full backing of the military might and funding of the united states. You have nuclear weapons, tanks, helicopter, modern jet fighters etc. The palestenians are practically unarmed compared to you. Hardly a fair fight.

This is the last thing I am going to post on this thread because I am convinced that we will keep going around in circles. You are clearly unable to face the reality of what you are doing to the palestenians and are unable to evaluate yourself and your actions in an objective way.

I hope that the efforts of the peace makers in your respective countries will one day be able to lift off this curse and I hope that it will happen before the massacre and the mass dislocation of palestenians I forsee in the not too distant future.