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Hong Kong's Octopus
Reuters is carrying an interesting story about Hong Kong's Octopus smart card system, which serves as a mass-transit fare card and is now being accepted by merchants for small purchases. A magazine cover story from last year goes more into depth. Interesting to note that the system started off anonymous, and is now being converted into a personally-trackable system.
Just because it has personally-trackable info doesn't mean that it's dangerous. Credit cards, for example, have your info attached through the credit card company. Has the world gone haywire yet?
I'd love to even see all of New York's transit integrated. Example: Last night a friend had to get a bus (which accepts the MTA metrocard) to a train (Long Island Rail Road, part of MTA but no metrocard) to a subway (6 line, definitely takes MTA Metrocard) to another train (Metro North, have to buy a ticket). I think we need to get all of our transit taken care of before branching out into other fields.
"I can't understand why people are frightened by new ideas. I'm frightened of old ones."
i work in transit consulting, and would be tickled to see even regional cooperation in fare collection. Of course, one of the big hurdles is that transit in the U.S. is generally all sorts of little authorities, transit districts, and other independent government instruments. ;)
one solution? EZPass-style collection, where the agencies divide up the dough after charges are incurred, according to whose facility (bridge, road, whatever) was used...
of course, for that to work, you have to tell them who you are and where you've been...
Anonymity is still an opt-out here. You can get a personalized card if you wish, but many users still use the plain-Jane Octopus card.
I really wish we had something like this here in the US. Say goodbye to pocket change...Businesses and the government don't realize how much long-term savings they could have if they abolished coin currency altogether, and yet our government rushes to put forth *new* coinage, on the thin hopes that they might get enough interest from collectors and whatnot.
Susan B. Anthony coins didn't work...you very rarely see half-dollars...and how many of you have seen Sacagawea dollars? I used a $25 roll I had a few months ago paying for a pizza delivery. Otherwise, they're useless.
"Mod, mod, mod...and another troll bites the dust."
I go back to HK every once in awhile, so I've actually *used* the system. In short, I think it's actually a worthwhile implementation cause it's a very convienent and fast system.
I mean, absolutely no hassle, just walk up to a scanner, brush your wallet across, hear the confirmation beep and off you go. (The scanner will also display how much money you have left if you care to look)
Works the same way on the bus too so there's no embarassment of looking for your ticket/correct change, making everyone behind you wait impatiently. Adding more money is easy too, just walk up to a special machine, insert your coin, choose amount to add, and then insert money.
The only down side is that, cause it works so well and is so transparent, you don't really keep track of how much money is left on the card and you find yourself adding more money to the card too frequently.
How appropriate, I am now in HK and I have an octopus card in my wallet!
It is a very well received device from what I experienced. It works really well in HK but I doubt that it will work as well in other countries/cities.
What makes HK unique is the high concentration of people in a "homogenous" society. Being a "special administration region" under China, efficency has a higher priority over privacy. I personally think that it is a wonderful system for HK, but not very well suited for North America.
I can't remember his name, but we had a sort-of computer ethicist come and talk to my software engineering class, and one of the examples he used was the Octopus. I guess his involvement with the project ended before this whole anonymity thing came up, but he was quite disturbed about the actual mecahnics of paying.
You walk up to the metal plate and wave your card in front of it. If it goes withon about a cm of the plate, it is automatically debited some set amount. The disturbing thing is that, unlike nearly every other transaction in the history of trade and commerce, you do not have an option to back out when you see how much it costs, nor do you get any permanent record of the transaction. You could walk past the scanner and have your card debited a few times while it's in your pocket, and you'd never know.
It was a very interesting talk, raising issues that I'd never thought about before, but I think are extremely important to consider.
Lemme say this again.... The Octopus card is optional.... you can ride the Bus, Subway, Star ferry, subway to the customs for China by paying cash. No one forces you to get a Octopus card.
... if you change bus you pay again.
However saying that, I have one myself and would remark at its conviecne. When I went on vacation to HK and China a while ago, I stayed in H.K. for ~10 days and I even got one myself. No more
looking for correct change at bus stations or
subway depots. It is really convenient. And yes, you can buy one anonymously. When you go pick them up (pay HKD50 for deposit) you are given
the OPTION to personalize, but you don't have it.
For those in Canada/USA the buses operate somewhat differently, there is no 'transfers' or whatever they're called in H.K. For example in Toronto you only pay one fair for each one way trip and you get a transfer for when you change bus or subways. In Hong Kong you pay each time you get on a bus, train, subway
Whereas in most places the ticket prices for bus or subway is fixed (I know its like $2 in Toronto, Canada) its different in Hong Kong. The price for subways and buses depends on approximately how far you travel (by approximately I mean say they divide one bus route into 5 zones and set a certain price if you travel within one zone and different if you travel though one zone, two zone,etc)
The combination of the above two factors is probably why the Octopus system became popular. People got really annoyed carrying large amounts of change at all times (remember, buses don't give change). This is very different from the way most public transit (bus/subway) work in North American cities.
-- Note: These Comments are Generated by ME! Not You! ME!
The Signapore goverment has a system that has been cracked wide open. Its not a major problem because if you get caught, your in jail for decades and can never get a job. The result is most of the people who have the ability to casually hack the system aren't about to even try.
Once cool thing with these (and Mondex) is that if you lose the card, someone else keeps the cash. Anyone who has ever worked in a student ID office or drivers license department can tell you how offten people lose these things.
So far no one has built a smart card that has enough grunt to do real hard crypto in a reasonable about of time while making the chip so it can't be inspected in a way to find out its secrets. We have a long way to go before someone comes up with a contactless card that can do a transaction faster than two people who are good at handling cash.
I have one in my wallet at the moment. One of the best things about it, is that I can charge it up with HKD1000 or so, and then just leave it in my wallet. Then, whenever I am in HK (once a month or more) I can just get on and off the subway, buy lunches and newspapers and more, without the hassle of carrying currency every single trip, no making change, no collecting coins, etc. It's wonderful.
And let me stress again, it's completely anonymous. You buy the cards with cash; you refill them with cash.
That's not to say that some future system will have "opt in for a special deal" features, which you can accept/reject just like you accept/reject loyalty cards. In fact, having some sort of personalisation may enable you to make a phone call to cancel your card should it be stolen. And that would be a good thing.
I can't help but think much of the knee-jerk negativity in here is simple jealousy. Octopus is a fantastically popular, totally secure, wonderfully convenient system. Perhaps some posters secretly wish that their local governments had the balls to introduce something as clever.
Also, it's OLD NEWS. The system has been running for ages.
For years now highway fares are being paid with a smartcard that's put on the interior of the car; the subway is payed with a smartcard. The fuel can also be paid with a smartcard.
What's interesting is that some years ago they deployed hundreds of small terminals that could read a smartcard (called in a loose translation 'electronic wallet') nation-wide anywhere where payments were to be made; transportations, stores, malls, even taxis carried the small terminal. One would transfer money from the main account to that card and that was it, the card had no apparent identification mechanism (to the point were loosing the smartcard was the same as loosing a wallet). It was pretty neat, but never really caught up. Inertia, people's confusion about the device and the fact that ppl are so used to having money or paying everything with a card...
Which brings me to a question: just about everything is payed with a bank card (VISA Electron, put in, confirm value, insert PIN, done). Every example above can also be payed with this card (except taxis) and the terminals are prepared in many cases to be self operated e.g. gas stations, public transportations, etc). Doesn't that count as 'moneyless society
In a way we are more and more dependent on plastic ; I suppose that the thing that's interesting about this Octopus thing is that it putis it all together, the 'scanning' capability used in highways, the portability of a 'electronic wallet' and the availabilty of VISA Electron.
Just my 2 euro cents,
fsmunoz
Casinos require their patrons to change cash into chips for much the same reason. Four green chips on the table just don't make the same impression that a $100 bill does. It's easier to play with the colorful markers and not realize you're losing real money. The line at the cashier to change chips back into cash is also another way to part you and your money.
Slot clubs work much the same way. Anyone who plays a lot of slots hates dealing with the mass of coins that a big win produces. Only amateurs are impressed with the shower of coins like that produced by machines in the movies. "Real" casinos (read: casinos for people who live close by and play a LOT) don't use cash at all, just a "Dave & Buster's" type card that inserts to the machine and the central computer notes your ID and keeps track of your wins (ha!) and losses.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Here in Tokyo, Japan Railways East introduced a contactless smart card called "Suica" last year. It's particularly convenient because one card can serve as both a stored value card and a commuter pass. When part of my trip uses the line for which I have a commuter pass, I swipe the card at the end of the journey and it deducts for only that portion of the journey that was not using my commuter line.
Unfortunately, this card, though good on JR, can't be used on the subways or private railways. But I hear that this may be coming.
The biggest cellphone provider here, Docomo, is set to introduce a contactless smart card chip in its new mobile phones later this year, which should be particularly interesting.
cjs
The world's most portable OS: http://www.netbsd.org.
In Hong Kong, there is no central bank that issues coins and bills, but 4 (at least I think its four, havent been in HKG since last year) different banks issue the same bills, each with a different building (the bank building, of course) in the back.
Its a hoot! It Corporate Money, like in cyberpunk novels!
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