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Hong Kong's Octopus
Reuters is carrying an interesting story about Hong Kong's Octopus smart card system, which serves as a mass-transit fare card and is now being accepted by merchants for small purchases. A magazine cover story from last year goes more into depth. Interesting to note that the system started off anonymous, and is now being converted into a personally-trackable system.
Just because it has personally-trackable info doesn't mean that it's dangerous. Credit cards, for example, have your info attached through the credit card company. Has the world gone haywire yet?
I'd love to even see all of New York's transit integrated. Example: Last night a friend had to get a bus (which accepts the MTA metrocard) to a train (Long Island Rail Road, part of MTA but no metrocard) to a subway (6 line, definitely takes MTA Metrocard) to another train (Metro North, have to buy a ticket). I think we need to get all of our transit taken care of before branching out into other fields.
"I can't understand why people are frightened by new ideas. I'm frightened of old ones."
i work in transit consulting, and would be tickled to see even regional cooperation in fare collection. Of course, one of the big hurdles is that transit in the U.S. is generally all sorts of little authorities, transit districts, and other independent government instruments. ;)
one solution? EZPass-style collection, where the agencies divide up the dough after charges are incurred, according to whose facility (bridge, road, whatever) was used...
of course, for that to work, you have to tell them who you are and where you've been...
Anonymity is still an opt-out here. You can get a personalized card if you wish, but many users still use the plain-Jane Octopus card.
I really wish we had something like this here in the US. Say goodbye to pocket change...Businesses and the government don't realize how much long-term savings they could have if they abolished coin currency altogether, and yet our government rushes to put forth *new* coinage, on the thin hopes that they might get enough interest from collectors and whatnot.
Susan B. Anthony coins didn't work...you very rarely see half-dollars...and how many of you have seen Sacagawea dollars? I used a $25 roll I had a few months ago paying for a pizza delivery. Otherwise, they're useless.
"Mod, mod, mod...and another troll bites the dust."
9/11 isn't about clever terrorists -- it's about ridiculous failures in intelligence, federal law enforcement, and immigration procedures. Nothing's changed; don't expect a smartcard to foil these camel jockeys.
I go back to HK every once in awhile, so I've actually *used* the system. In short, I think it's actually a worthwhile implementation cause it's a very convienent and fast system.
I mean, absolutely no hassle, just walk up to a scanner, brush your wallet across, hear the confirmation beep and off you go. (The scanner will also display how much money you have left if you care to look)
Works the same way on the bus too so there's no embarassment of looking for your ticket/correct change, making everyone behind you wait impatiently. Adding more money is easy too, just walk up to a special machine, insert your coin, choose amount to add, and then insert money.
The only down side is that, cause it works so well and is so transparent, you don't really keep track of how much money is left on the card and you find yourself adding more money to the card too frequently.
I think if tomorrow somehow became last year, all bets would be pretty much off.
How appropriate, I am now in HK and I have an octopus card in my wallet!
It is a very well received device from what I experienced. It works really well in HK but I doubt that it will work as well in other countries/cities.
What makes HK unique is the high concentration of people in a "homogenous" society. Being a "special administration region" under China, efficency has a higher priority over privacy. I personally think that it is a wonderful system for HK, but not very well suited for North America.
Some people act as if they haven't heard of 'credit cards' before...
I can't remember his name, but we had a sort-of computer ethicist come and talk to my software engineering class, and one of the examples he used was the Octopus. I guess his involvement with the project ended before this whole anonymity thing came up, but he was quite disturbed about the actual mecahnics of paying.
You walk up to the metal plate and wave your card in front of it. If it goes withon about a cm of the plate, it is automatically debited some set amount. The disturbing thing is that, unlike nearly every other transaction in the history of trade and commerce, you do not have an option to back out when you see how much it costs, nor do you get any permanent record of the transaction. You could walk past the scanner and have your card debited a few times while it's in your pocket, and you'd never know.
It was a very interesting talk, raising issues that I'd never thought about before, but I think are extremely important to consider.
Lemme say this again.... The Octopus card is optional.... you can ride the Bus, Subway, Star ferry, subway to the customs for China by paying cash. No one forces you to get a Octopus card.
... if you change bus you pay again.
However saying that, I have one myself and would remark at its conviecne. When I went on vacation to HK and China a while ago, I stayed in H.K. for ~10 days and I even got one myself. No more
looking for correct change at bus stations or
subway depots. It is really convenient. And yes, you can buy one anonymously. When you go pick them up (pay HKD50 for deposit) you are given
the OPTION to personalize, but you don't have it.
For those in Canada/USA the buses operate somewhat differently, there is no 'transfers' or whatever they're called in H.K. For example in Toronto you only pay one fair for each one way trip and you get a transfer for when you change bus or subways. In Hong Kong you pay each time you get on a bus, train, subway
Whereas in most places the ticket prices for bus or subway is fixed (I know its like $2 in Toronto, Canada) its different in Hong Kong. The price for subways and buses depends on approximately how far you travel (by approximately I mean say they divide one bus route into 5 zones and set a certain price if you travel within one zone and different if you travel though one zone, two zone,etc)
The combination of the above two factors is probably why the Octopus system became popular. People got really annoyed carrying large amounts of change at all times (remember, buses don't give change). This is very different from the way most public transit (bus/subway) work in North American cities.
-- Note: These Comments are Generated by ME! Not You! ME!
The Signapore goverment has a system that has been cracked wide open. Its not a major problem because if you get caught, your in jail for decades and can never get a job. The result is most of the people who have the ability to casually hack the system aren't about to even try.
Once cool thing with these (and Mondex) is that if you lose the card, someone else keeps the cash. Anyone who has ever worked in a student ID office or drivers license department can tell you how offten people lose these things.
So far no one has built a smart card that has enough grunt to do real hard crypto in a reasonable about of time while making the chip so it can't be inspected in a way to find out its secrets. We have a long way to go before someone comes up with a contactless card that can do a transaction faster than two people who are good at handling cash.
What is interesting is that it is so wide spread throughout Hong Kong and rapidly growing in Asia. Areas where mass transportation due to overcrowding provide the perfect opportunity. Keep in mind, however, that while your money is sitting on that pre-paid card, its not accruing interest in your bank account.
I have one in my wallet at the moment. One of the best things about it, is that I can charge it up with HKD1000 or so, and then just leave it in my wallet. Then, whenever I am in HK (once a month or more) I can just get on and off the subway, buy lunches and newspapers and more, without the hassle of carrying currency every single trip, no making change, no collecting coins, etc. It's wonderful.
And let me stress again, it's completely anonymous. You buy the cards with cash; you refill them with cash.
That's not to say that some future system will have "opt in for a special deal" features, which you can accept/reject just like you accept/reject loyalty cards. In fact, having some sort of personalisation may enable you to make a phone call to cancel your card should it be stolen. And that would be a good thing.
I can't help but think much of the knee-jerk negativity in here is simple jealousy. Octopus is a fantastically popular, totally secure, wonderfully convenient system. Perhaps some posters secretly wish that their local governments had the balls to introduce something as clever.
Also, it's OLD NEWS. The system has been running for ages.
For years now highway fares are being paid with a smartcard that's put on the interior of the car; the subway is payed with a smartcard. The fuel can also be paid with a smartcard.
What's interesting is that some years ago they deployed hundreds of small terminals that could read a smartcard (called in a loose translation 'electronic wallet') nation-wide anywhere where payments were to be made; transportations, stores, malls, even taxis carried the small terminal. One would transfer money from the main account to that card and that was it, the card had no apparent identification mechanism (to the point were loosing the smartcard was the same as loosing a wallet). It was pretty neat, but never really caught up. Inertia, people's confusion about the device and the fact that ppl are so used to having money or paying everything with a card...
Which brings me to a question: just about everything is payed with a bank card (VISA Electron, put in, confirm value, insert PIN, done). Every example above can also be payed with this card (except taxis) and the terminals are prepared in many cases to be self operated e.g. gas stations, public transportations, etc). Doesn't that count as 'moneyless society
In a way we are more and more dependent on plastic ; I suppose that the thing that's interesting about this Octopus thing is that it putis it all together, the 'scanning' capability used in highways, the portability of a 'electronic wallet' and the availabilty of VISA Electron.
Just my 2 euro cents,
fsmunoz
Another important advantage of the Octopus card is the speed in which the entry and exit checkpoints can read the cards. Before the Octopus, Hong Kong's Mass Transit Railway used magnetic cards similar to Washington D.C.'s metro. After inserting the magnetic card into the turnstile checkpoint, it takes less than a second for the computer to process and return the card and unlock the turnstile.
With the Octopus card, you don't even need to take your card from your wallet or purse, you simply swipe your wallet/purse over a square area at the checkpoint, and it actually saves time!
While it may seem like a small savings of time, the MTR carries on average of 2.3 million passengers per day, which is remarkable since (a) it is a highly congested system, and (b) the population of Hong Kong is a little over 7 million.
It should be noted that the MTR still uses magnetic cards for single-trip fares; assuming you've paid the correct fare the exit checkpoint will keep the card and let you out -- very environmentally friendly indeed.
I'm not entirely up to date as to the security or privacy issues since I only visited recently, but here is why a lot of people choose to use it: it is fast. In fact, if you have no other cards with magnetic stripes on them, you can just stick your purse/backpack/wallet close to the reader and it will take your money. It is that fast.
Of course, if privacy or security is a concern one can always opt for cash which works just as well.
--------
It's OK to be social, just don't tell anyone about it.
Casinos require their patrons to change cash into chips for much the same reason. Four green chips on the table just don't make the same impression that a $100 bill does. It's easier to play with the colorful markers and not realize you're losing real money. The line at the cashier to change chips back into cash is also another way to part you and your money.
Slot clubs work much the same way. Anyone who plays a lot of slots hates dealing with the mass of coins that a big win produces. Only amateurs are impressed with the shower of coins like that produced by machines in the movies. "Real" casinos (read: casinos for people who live close by and play a LOT) don't use cash at all, just a "Dave & Buster's" type card that inserts to the machine and the central computer notes your ID and keeps track of your wins (ha!) and losses.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
I'll bet the IRS is pissed.
Of course, the ATM that I get my money out of can.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Here in Tokyo, Japan Railways East introduced a contactless smart card called "Suica" last year. It's particularly convenient because one card can serve as both a stored value card and a commuter pass. When part of my trip uses the line for which I have a commuter pass, I swipe the card at the end of the journey and it deducts for only that portion of the journey that was not using my commuter line.
Unfortunately, this card, though good on JR, can't be used on the subways or private railways. But I hear that this may be coming.
The biggest cellphone provider here, Docomo, is set to introduce a contactless smart card chip in its new mobile phones later this year, which should be particularly interesting.
cjs
The world's most portable OS: http://www.netbsd.org.
Be sure and pick up one of these. They have a great tourist deal that has a 3-day unlimited use of the subway and a return trip on the airport express. If you do this, be sure and check your bags in at the downtown station. They will be checked through all the way to the plane.
I mean, why bother? You might strain your back and be out $50 a co-pay visit to the chiropractor.
A cashless society could have happened here (New Zealand), I guess, if it weren't for one thing: Bank fees.
Almost everyone these days has an EFTPOS card (Electronic Funds Transfer at Point Of Sale). I guess you might call it a debit card --- it is like a credit card, but with no credit. You can only spend money you have in your account.
And virtually every shop can take EFTPOS, from dairies to retail to second hand bookshops to cinemas...
The only problem is the banks. Typically, they allow a small minimum number of free transactions per month, and beyond that, you start paying fees per transaction. So unless you really want to donate money to your friendly (foreign-owned) bank, you use cash for small transactions...
Maybe we need someone to start something like Octopus here. If everyone suddenly stopped using EFTPOS, the banks might finally get a clue...
Repton.
They say that only an experienced wizard can do the tengu shuffle.
It's true that the normal Octopus Card doesn't identify the holder as such, but the card itself has an identifying number blind-stamped on the front as well as an identifying code in the chip, which also retains the details of the last trip made. The identifying code and travel information are recorded each time the card is used; if the chip gets damaged, this information is used to reconstruct the value of the card.
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That the card doesn't identify a traveller by name doesn't mean there isn't a privacy concern; since most people use just one Octopus Card and keep adding value to it from time to time the record of that card's use is also the record of that user's travels. I haven't heard of police taking down the details of a suspect's Octopus Card for investigation, but it's certainly a possibility.
Though Octopus has the form of a private venture, it is wholly-owned by the SAR's transport operators and indirectly controlled by the HK Government, which holds a 66 percent indirect interest in the venture. The MTR, which operates the HK subway, holds a controlling interest of 57.4 percent in Octopus and the heavy and light rail operator KRC holds 22.1 percen in it. While the bus and ferry system operators are private operations, both the MTR and the KRC are government-controlled. Government-backing and acceptance of the card by the practically all public transport operators has almost guaranteed its success. (In his interview with Reuters, Eric Tai of Octopus disingenously down-plays the HK Government's role in transport. The MTR was 100 percent government-owned at the time Octopus was established and, after a partial privatisation, remains 77 percent government-owned; the KCR is still 100 percent government-owned.) An alternative cash card for shopping alone, the Mondex Card, sponsored by HSBC, the SAR's biggest bank, failed big.
Technical details about the Octopus Card are at these links:
http://www.octopuscards.com/octopus_eng/e_what_
http://www.sony.co.jp/en/Products/felica/conten
Granted, this isn't necessarily a huge invasion of privacy, much like buying things with credit cards isn't necessarily a huge invasion of privacy. But as I live in what's commonly regarded as one of the most dangerous parts of the Tokyo metro area, I'm not at all thrilled about the possibility of thieves finding out exactly what time I get on and off the train each day.
As a side note, Suica is anonymous (I think) when you use it as a plain charge card; but there are already magnetic charge cards which do the same thing (plus give you a printout on the card of each transaction), and I really can't convince myself that saving the extra 0.7 seconds or so I'd gain by using the IC card is worth it.
In Hong Kong, there is no central bank that issues coins and bills, but 4 (at least I think its four, havent been in HKG since last year) different banks issue the same bills, each with a different building (the bank building, of course) in the back.
Its a hoot! It Corporate Money, like in cyberpunk novels!
No sig for the moment.
When I was working on this project, three years ago, there were two types of cards available. The first was completely anonymous, the card could be tracked, but it could not be linked to anyone. It was sold over the counter, without identification, and had way of associating itself with it's user.
The second type of card was personalised. This card could also be linked to your savings account, and when your travel card got low on funds could automatically top itself up. You had to request this specifically! Lots of people did, because it is incredibly convenient, since you never have to buy a ticket ever again. And, since the cards are contactless you never even needed to take it out of your wallet/purse.
So, unless they have changed the system quite dramatically in the last three years, then there is no difference, and it has not been "converted", and you can still be anonymous if you wish.
the thing Octopus piss me off is that it charges HK$50 prepayment. There's no way we could get back that prepayment as long as you are using their service, and when you lost the card you've to pay that HK$50 again. That's why regardless of the fact that we have only 6mil-7mil residents, they've sold 8mils Octopus. Good deal(for them).
Octopus has become a society problems here. Kids are allowed to use the Octopus to pay goods and services in many areas like department store and internet Cafe, etc. People are concerned that while the payment is untrackable, their parents cannot tell where their kids spent their money.
Location-based tracking system is a rather profitable business here because GPS generally fails to work in a city with a lot of high-rising buildings due to blocking and reflection. People are now developing location-based tracking with GPS sims and it works great. I don't think Octopus is better than GSM sims in this case as in normal case a GSM sims is synchronized with 6 GSM location based stations(NNM system) and the result is close to 25M radius.
and it can be used to track you if they got your information linked to this unique ID. Just like the unique ID inside Pentium III.
:)
However, it's difficult to link one's personal information to this smart card because we are not required to submit our personal information when buying an Octopus card. Therefore I'll not trade my privacy to a lousy company like Cafe da Carol who sell lousy food just because I want eat some fast food real fast.
Well, what you're talking about is pretty much how it is done in many German cities. I live in Hannover, where the system is very straightforward. You buy a ticket which covers all transit types (street tram, subway, bus, regional train) and it simply has a time limit -- usually 90 minutes, but you can also get day passes, monthly passes and so on. The price is then based on the number of zones, but the "zones" are so huge that you can almost always get away with buying a simple one-zone ticket (the "zones" are concentric rings around downtown Hannover, and the central zone covers basically the entire city and inner suburbs). For one zone, you pay €1.70 (about US$1.60) and you can travel all you want for 90 minutes in the central zone -- no transfers needed.
(Hannover is of course the home of the CeBIT computer fair, if you're wondering. For CeBIT visitors it's even easier -- the fare is included in the price of the CeBIT ticket.)
The way the ticket itself works is simple, too. It just shows where you bought the ticket, in what zone, and when. When the ÜSTRA employees check your ticket, all they have to do is look at the zone and time, and they know if you've paid correctly.
You can also pay for your tickets with your GeldKarte (cashcard), which is a smart card used for paying small amounts -- you book money onto it at any cash machine, and it literally carries your money (up to €100, if I remember right) without having your bank account info stored on it. (The "cash" has a unique digital watermark with the data used to verify if the cash is real -- which of course opens up all kinds of possibilities for tracking its use...)
Not all German cities have this worked out, though. Hamburg, for example, also has a centralized system, but the "system" is total chaos because of their rather bizarre zones. Like in Hannover, you pay for a set amount of time and number of zones, but in Hamburg the zones are miniscule. When I lived there, if I took the public transport from my flat to work, there were three different ways of getting there, all involving one transfer and all travelling the same distance and taking about the same amount of time -- yet each cost a wildly different amount. Of course, once I got a monthly pass it wasn't so bad, but I was still restricted to one part of the city with that passcard.
One thing about Hamburg's system that is relevant to what you said is that Hamburg also has a number of private companies running its transit system (Deutsche Bahn runs the S-Bahn, Hamburger Hochbahn and several others do the U-Bahn and several companies run the bus system), but you still have one fare system and one ticketing system. Same goes for Berlin. (Hannover just has one state-sponsored company, the ÜSTRA, that does everything.)
Berlin's system is similar to Hamburg's as well. Again you pay for one ticket regardless of what transit type you use (and no trasnfers needed), but at the departure stop, you have to look at a *huge* table of destinations to find the fare you need to pay (if you're leaving from Kurfürstendamm and travelling to Alexanderplatz, it costs so-and-so much). But the system works and doesn't need any high-tech at all, which has its advantages as well.
Anyway, I'll stop rambling for now...
Cheers,
Ethelred
Everyone wants to be Ethelred. Even I want to be Ethelred.
Population density is part of it, but there is more to it than that. Montreal has great mass transit, while having less population density than most US cities. What's the next excuse? Gasoline is too cheap? UK has gas at over $5/gal and they can't do mass transit any better than we can.
I mean, I know that (e.g.) VISA charge vendors a flat 35 cents plus ~2.5% of the transaction, which makes them all but useless for small payments. However, I was wondering how much of this actually goes to VISA and how much to the intermediate issuer.
I'm thinking of a travel credit card issued by a consortium of bus, train, subway, even air companies, that doesn't bill participating companies the handling charge when its used to pay for fares. That gives you a card that you can use for other purchases, and which gets you on a bus with one swipe. The level of fraud would be so small as to not make it worth while sweating about validating the transactions (although you could download lists of cancelled or bad cards to the readers) and any money you do lose through fraud, you get back through not handling cash.
Failing that, is there room for a new card on the market? Transport is a big industry with a lot of customers; they should be able to leverage that to get vendors to accept a new TravelCard.
There's plenty of incentive for both sides. For vendors, it's no worse than standard credit cards (and it could be sweetened). For the travel businesses, it does away with a lot of cash handling, plus it gives them extra income from those fat 2.5% + 35 cents fees (or whatever they'd charge) when you use it to make purchases.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
Capitalism in action (a secondary market) :-). However the train companies obviously don't like this.
The cards themselves are machine (magnetic strip) and human readable and work seamlessly on trains, underground, trams, busses and apparently some boats (river busses).
Obviously the authorities in HK want to use a technological means to solve a social problem (dishonesty) (which is what all tickets are in the first place).
I've met a guy who was ticketed in a state that had extensive toll roads in this very fashion. He paid the toll at gate X and again at gate Y. For some reason they kept track of the license plates and he got fined for speeding due to the difference in time between the two gates.
I've never driven a toll booth that logged anything about me, it's usually just chuck the change and go.
This same guy though also claimed to have been pulled over for speeding @ 2:30 AM in WI. The fine was $105 and had to paid on the spot in cash. He handed the cop two $100s and the cop claimed he had no change. The guy said fine, let's go to the station and get some. The cop said it was 75 miles in the wrong direction, the guy said well, what about my change? The cop scrapped the ticket and told the guy to quit driving so fast.
Where do you get the notion that "Unless a holder chooses a personalized card, his or her identity is unknown" means a previously anonymized system is being converted to a personally trackable system? You are invoking a well known logical fallacy by assuming that because an unknown representative sample has chosen to allow tracking, that somehow the system as a whole has no anonymity? I didn't see you link to anything that gave me numbers which suggest that anonymity is being lost in great amounts. Therefore, I'd have to conclude that you are spreading FUD.
I'm sure if the same system can work anywhere else in the world. People in Hong Kong tend to put efficiency over anything else. Even large transaction are often done with cash.
The Octopus card is a great little tool and very convenient for tourists. Except for taxi cabs, I was able to use my card on bus, trains, MTR(subway), boats, tram (upto the Victoria peak), minibus, etc... Being able to use it at 7-11 and fast-food joints is a bonus.
I actually thought it was pretty cool. I walked by a vending machine and did a Jedi butt wave (back pocket had my wallet where the card has contained) and got a Coke out of the machine.
It's one of those neat memory of my trip to Hong Kong... That and all the gadgets on Apliu Street, Shum Shui Po, and Mokng Kok.