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Used Books: An Actual Internet Success Story
theodp writes: "An Actual Internet Success Story explains how, in just a few years, the Internet has transformed the world into a huge marketplace for used books, utterly transforming a business that had gone pretty much unobserved for centuries. The Net has changed how we buy and think about books - someone in Illinois can easily buy a cheap used hardback over the Net from a New York dealer, read it and then resell it to someone in California, having spent, in effect, only a few dollars. According to the story, the increase in the number of used books sold is staggering, maybe 100 times what it was in 1995, and now accounts for more than 15 percent of Amazon's sales. Tales are told of used book dealers lining up nine hours before a library sale to get 'free money,' cutting deals with thrift-store managers and library-sale organizers to avoid 'feeding frenzy' fights, volunteering at the Salvation Army to get first dibs on donations, and offering review copies for half price on the Net weeks before a book is even published."
Ahh yes, but then the book companies can complain about the used book market stealing money from their pockets. I wonder when the selling of used books will become illegal.
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# Modus Ponens
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Three or four comic book stores in the Orlando area went out of business quickly about 2 years ago. While scrounging for stuff, I got to speak with the owners and they ALL had the same story.
They made more money in one month selling their inventory on Ebay than they did in a year selling inthe "real" world. They pointed out all the really good stuff was gone, and I wasn't going to find what I was looking for.
All were quite happy with the situation and planned to continue selling at online auctions.
A side note is that in the last week I've sold 5 books on Amazon that I no longer wanted. I got decent money, too, not like the $1 or so at a garage sale. I *HATE* throwing books out -- they need to go to a good home.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
I think that this is partially off. For the most part, it is correct that many people are able to buy/sell/trade in the "global marketplace" whereas they could not before. However, used bookstores have been around for a long long time, and they always seem to have a good selection, even in small towns. I can only see the "specialty" market actually being helped by this. Its only the lazy people who order groceries from the web and don't want to go down to the local used book store to look around.
A slip of the foot you may soon recover, but a slip of the tongue you may never get over. -Benjamin Franklin
I've been haunting used book stores for years. It's usually a hit-or-miss proposition. The mass market books are usually pretty easy to find in the local shops, but the more obscure or esoteric books are nearly impossible to find.
Amazon.com and B&N (and their associated sellers) have greatly changed that. I can find almost anything now and usually at a reasonable price. I looked for years to find copies of out-of-print and obscure books before and now it's pretty easy.
I expect it'll be a few years before we're able to get the majority of used-book stores on-line though. Most stores have far too much stock and too few resources to make that happen.
Don't anthropomorphize computers, they don't like it.
One thing I absolutely love on the net is the chance to go someplace like Amazon, E-bay, or www.thewantad.com and find something oscure that I am looking for.
.com everything might have overloaded people with the notion that get online and you will find piles of useless companies that don't belong there, but it never really hit the sites like e-bay hard.
I have always been someone that likes to buy good stuff, but it's not always economically feasible. Of course, buying a great couch online from Oregon isn't the best idea when you live in New England, but these types of sites are there if you want to do it.
The strength of this scenario is that it is exactly the type of marketplace the net is suited for.
I guess I am saying I am a big fan of this, whether it be books or anything else. It's a great form of recycling when one man's junk becomes another's treasure.
This is because the book publishers have embraced the internet and allowed the new technology and their industry to naturally merge together into something beneficial for everybody.
On the other hand the music and movie industries seem to be doing the exact opposite. Example - Stephen King's + Scott Adams E-Books. Publishers embrace the technology and don't try to make money with lawyers. I doubt the RIAA will learn a lesson however.
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
.. X has been unmeasured for centuries, but in the last n years, its gone up 100 times! Please, there is no way to do a realistic study. The best they can say is, used book sold on the web have gone up x amount since we began studying the trend.
There are many used book stores that don't report to anybody.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I really hate getting a used book that someone has taken a highlighter to. The light yellow/green/pink really distracts my eye when trying to concentrate. Even worse when the previous owner has a really bad highlighting technique. Far less annoying are the standard food stains/coffee cup marks, even when half the book in stained.
Anyone know of any online bookstores that at least check a few pages of used books for highlighter marks and the like, and mention if they found any in the book description?
:^)
Ryan Fenton
plus, used bookstores smell good.
and they usually have a cat.
I can't believe it's not lard!
Online bookstores are great, if you already know what book you want. But, one of the biggest attractions that used bookstores have for me is the thousands of books that I've never heard of. I can spend hours in a bookstore, just browsing through the shelves - that experience is pretty hard to duplicate online.
Lost: Sig, white with black letters. No collar. Reward if found!
back in the '80s, it was said that the rise of the electronic office would dramatically cut the usage of paper in the modern office. the opposite happened!
;-P
i think it is kind of funny then that the internet, this colossal, immediate, hyperlinked textual monstrosity, should greatly increase the market for... used books!!??
so i am hereby predicting the next big media revolution will have everyone reading the saturday evening post... or life magazine... don't ask me how or why, but the precedent is clear. LOL
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
This is a great example of how capitalism is suppoesed to work. The system will squeeze out as much efficiency as possible from the market. A way for "recycling" these items has become avaiable and now the market has sprung up around it.
I'm sure it pisses off the book publishers, but they can join the ranks of the candle makers and buggy whip producers.
If you're buying a used book so you can read it and then resell it, what are you gaining? Why not just go to the library?
Nosce te Ipsum
I would love to buy things in online auctions - except that invariably, some obsessive-compulsive type halfway across the continent is willing to bid half their net worth for whatever it is I'm looking for. My upper bidding limit (and I don't think I'm being cheap) is often a fraction of what the latest top bid is...
The good thing of course, is that this benefits sellers, and thus encourages a thriving auction market. If I can't afford to bid on an item that I can't get locally anyway, I guess nobody's hurt by that. The downside, as you say is that the often financially risky proposition of running a "brick-and-mortar" physical storefront somewhere is not as compelling for would-be retailers. So collectible items like comic books etc. may become completely unavailable, except online and in very large cities. One of the two local gaming/comic shops in my city just closed down to become a strictly online business (putting at least one fangirl out of work in the process...)
Freedom: "I won't!"
There is a concept called the "Right of First Sale", which says that once someone has been sold a physical object (like a book), the seller can't tell them what to do with it. It's theirs to do with as they please.
Now, that does not give them the right to use the product to break other laws (xeroxing the book, scanning it in & posting the results to the net, etc), but if they want to use the book to wallpaper their house, there's nothing the seller can do to stop it.
This gets more complicated when you have to have a license to use what's on the physical thing (like software on a CD), but the First Sale principle is pretty well established in the US.
Why should you care? Because it means that there's no way in hell that used book sales are ever going to be shut down...they're protected by the Right of First Sale. The trading of MP3s is not protected by this, so you can expect a legal fight there.
I disagree. In fact, I happen to like the musty smell of older books. I prefer to shop at this little hell hole in Bowling Green, OH called "Pauper's Books". The place is an absolute disaster. There are books stacked (or piled I guess would be the best description) all over the place, the shelves are filled w/random books that students have sold to them over the years and that they have collected.
I found 25 books for less than $7 and they were in good enough condition to read them.
There is no disrespect to the author's time/effort when you are buying a book that is old and tattered. In fact, I believe if the author cared that much about the condition of the book itself and not the contents of that book then he was writing for the COMPLETE wrong reason.
My favorite part of "Pauper's" is the fact that they have a Commodore64 (brown, non-C) in a box in the middle of the store stacked on top of a bunch of other shit.
Ahhh, musty smells, Commodores, and Piers Anthony, takes me back, way back.
I'm not quite as optimistic as you. While there are areas where this is a win (such as books that were previously unavailable because the only copies were buried in an unknown used bookstore), it is also cutting into the revenue for the book publishers. That's the same money that is used to encourage authors to spend their time writing books instead of writing advertising copy, flipping burgers, or working in a factory.
There are a number of ways the book industry can try and adapt. They can adjust the initial purchase price to reflect the larger average number of people reading each copy. They can cut costs through cheaper materials. They can use cheap materials to make the books fall apart sooner, making it harder to resell the books. They can focus only on the mainstream authors who always sell big numbers.
Now I'm not saying that reselling books is evil, immoral, or illegal. But it does have a potentially negative effect on the book industry, and I believe there's a good chance that that negative effect will get transferred back to the consumer.
Personally I find it amazing that anyone would want to buy a used book ... The damage and wear that multiple reads, shipping, selling, etc puts on books in my opinion ruins them.
And that's why you find it amazing. You don't understand the love of secondhand books.
Good secondhand bookstores are their own microcosm of wonder - especially the ones with creaky wooden floors, three cramped stories packed with floor to ceiling shelves, and overstuffed leather armchairs in odd places. There's a magic about prowling through the slightly yellowed rows of golden age SciFi looking for that one special novel that will complete your obscure author collection (Lloyd Biggle jr, anyone?), and if you don't understand that magic, well, I'm sorry for you. Used/old books have a certain smell and feel that is unique, and I'll guarantee that the great majority of good authors frequent second-hand bookstores.
Keeping books in "perfect condition" is a nice ideal - you should take care of books. My personal peeve is people who mark their place by leaving the book open, face down (Fire and Hemlock's fault). But keeping them in mint condition is unecessarily picky. Books are made to be read, and signs of wear are the marks of a good book. My (third) copy of LOTR is battered, creased, dogeared, and still perfectly readable. I can throw it in my backpack or overcoat pocket for reading on long bus trips, or up on a hill at Uni. Maybe, if it survives further multiple readings, I'll be able to lend it to someone else to love.
And by lend, I usually mean give - I don't try particularly hard to get back really good books that I can easily get another copy of secondhand, which is the whole point of second-hand books. Good books are to be read and shared. Not kept in vacuum storage for their preservation.
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Here be Dragons
Yes, this is true, and not only books, but other things as well.
I don't know about the rest of you who sell on eBay but I've noticed something over the past year or so .. everytime I buy something, I immediately think of the inevitable eBay resale.
Electronics: I will buy a more expensive digital camera because I know I can resell it later to buy the next model. Instead of collecting junk in my closet I can "upgrade" it by selling it and buying something else. I'm already anal about keeping things nice and clean and like-new, so it's no problem keeping stuff in ready to sell condition.
CDs: I used to buy lots of obscure indie/electronic CDs, but I had to pick and choose. Now, I basically buy everything on the new release lists because I know I can unload the ones I don't like on eBay (sometimes for more than I paid for those limited releases).
Books: I don't hesitate to buy the "intro" computer books (e.g., O'Reilly's Learning XML) because once I outgrow them, I can get $10-$15 back on eBay. And I might be helping some programmer who couldn't afford the full price of the new book.
It's not "the internet", it's eBay! eBay is the only Internet company that has really changed things, if you ask me. With eBay, everything can be "try before you buy".
That we've reached the situation where there is a sufficient concentration of idiocy, arrogance and financial interest to push for the removal or truncation of first sale rights on items that contain content, including books?
I know it sounds insane, but bear with me. I'm thinking about the Elcomsoft judge, and his assertion that because you can transcribe an eBook by hand, that satisfies the right to copy it in part for fair use rights of quotation, and in whole for eventually putting it into the public domain. So a court has said that it's both possible and practical to copy an eBook, and so by a close extrapolation, that applies (even more so because of OCR) to a text book.
So... (thinks an unscrupulous IP lawyer concerned that kiddies are actually sharing copies of Harry Potter and the Amazonian Gift Certificate or another lucrative movie tie in) if it's even easier to copy a paper book than a highly protected eBook, then why shouldn't some of those juicy DMCA criminal penalties apply to paper books?
Bear in mind that some eBooks are already tied to individual devices (my colleage has just bought a new PDA, but simply can't transfer his Microsoft licensed eBooks from his old one to the new one). They are treated as information licensed to you; you have no rights of first sale. Now, transferral of an eBook is copying of information, not a physical transfer, but look also at how hard it is to sell software on eBay. Publisher can and do have you shut down in an instant, even if you explicitely state that you are selling a boxed non-OEM copy that you have removed from your hardware. The very idea that you can own an object that contains copyrighted content is being challenged by habit and usage, and that's often a precursor to a change in the law.
I'm not saying that this will happen this year or the next. I'm thinking five or ten years, but I'm thinking that it can and will happen, after all digital content is locked down tight with mandatory DRM. I'm not proposing that it's Constitutional, or even that it's in any way workable, but that's not necessarily a bar to having a law passed that will take years of fighting up to the Supremes to have struck or modified.
I'm also thinking that it might be the issue that finally wakes up Joe Consumer regarding fair use and the balance of power in copyright, but that by then it might be too late to recover any of the rights that we've already lost to the publishers and distributors.
What do you think? Am I delusional, or am I just following the money?
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
I really enjoy buying on the internet. Regarding used (and sometimes new) books, here is what I discovered:
- I get a lot out of the reviews posted by other buyers. But this requires to be vigilant about the posts (the wolfram book is one example where people posted negative reviews one day after the publication, even if the book is 1000 pages.)
- Some people will just lie about the quality of the books they sell just to make more profit. Shop to places with good credibility and don't be surprised to pay a little bit more to get a nicer copy.
- Some sellers are charging up to the nose for books that are out of print. Use google extensively to find your copy for cheaper (half is not always the best place, amazon zshop is also very good.)
- Shipping cost is not negligible. Even using media mail, it will be higher than to pay for sales tax. And media mail is slow and doesn't let you insure your packages.
- Shipping delays are sometimes what makes me go to Borders or BN (the latter which I try to avoid) and get my copy there. Then I order online for cheaper, then I have one month to return my copy to the bricks+cement merchant. You've got to do what you have to do. Not my fault if the "real" stores don't compete aggressively with online prices.
- I still like to go to some dusty used bookstores and browse thru the huge selection, because I support moms&pops businesses and it's really enjoyable to find that rare copy of something I would never have thought buying online (e.g. D&D first ed. monster manual that I bought last weekend.)
PPA, the girl next door.
-- I feel better now. Thanks for asking.
Anyway, that is pretty much the equivalent of giving your .mp3s away for free over the net from your ripped CDs, is it not? The problem isn't necessarily the copying, I suspect, but rather the distribution.
I imagine that it is pretty much OK to transcribe a book to your computer to transfer to your PDA, but you are not allowed to post that copyrighted work to your web page and give it away. On the same note I imagine (even though the RIAA is trying to take even this away) that it is pretty much OK to rip your CD for use in your portable .mp3 player, but you are not allowed to post those songs to your web page and give them away.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but that is pretty much how it works, right?
"Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks
Record companies would love to stop used CD sales.
I wouldn't worry about restrictions on the sales of used books until long after CD resale becomes illegal.
There is one fly in the ointment- I have seen stories regarding restrictions on the resale of books that include CD-ROMs, related to the licensing of the software on the included CD.
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
You own the disc. The publisher can not take that away from you. Just as with a book where you own the paper. You don't own the music on the disc or the words on the paper. The author/publisher owns them. By selling you a CD or a book, the author has given you the right to use the music or words that are contained on the medium.
In your example, you are taking a copy of the music off of the medium and distributing it sans the disc. Unless the owner give you permission to do so, you are not allowed to do that.
Data is not a tangable object; you can't pick up an idea. You can do anything with the medium that you would please you. However, unless the owner gives you permission to do so, you can not take the data and distribute it independantly of the medium.
I just realized that books are the one media that will continue to be sold and re-sold for the forseeable future. As someone who is currently replacing all his CDs, Videos, DVDs with digital equivalents I can see that sales of 2nd-Hand films and music will fall off in the next few years because a lot of people will be "pirating" their own DVDs, computer games, albums and videos then selling them; once everyone is doing this there will be nobody buying originals to sell on.
With books however we still haven't got to the stage where the electronic "rip" is as good as owning the original. I think it will take years before portable readers are as good as real books (in terms of ease of reading, battery life, portability etc).
The other thing that may happen is that it becomes feasible to print a book to read it then recycling the paper. I think the price of ink in a format to suit a printer will always make this uneconomical though.
Just my thoughts
graspee
Those folks who have pointed out selling used books would be impossible to stop because of long-standing inertia are quite correct. The same is true with public libraries (indeed, ANY libraries) because they are very much entrenched. Indeed, there is along-standing friction between libraries and publishers over this very issue. In some countries there is a so-called "public lending right" which results in the goverment paying fees to publishers based on library corculation. Authors, in truth the most low-paid cog in the publishing machine, are all for this because that means more royalties (they think), so it's been made into a class issue as well.
Today is not the problem; tomorrow is. Today e-books and e-distribution, and e-paper, and all that is not much of an issue. After some initial excitement the concept is in the trough of disillusionment at the moment once publishers figured out people didn't want to lug around a Rocketbook.
In about then yeras or so we are likely to see the first signs of a peak in the "book" industry and the first statistically significant moves to digital in the industry. As that happens you will be buying a license to read the material. Time and technology will gradually decide this issue as more and more material is produced in the new formats.
It does not bode well for libraries or the used book trade. I am a librarian of 30 years in charge of our IT department. There is a sentiment in our profession that we may not be around as an institution very much longer.
How about a moderation of -1 pedantic.
I may be wrong, but I believe that you do indeed own the music on the cd, or the words on the paper.
I might not have been clear when I said "own". What I meant by "own" is that that words in the book or the music on the CD are that of the author. You can't claim that they are yours, even if you bought the book or the CD. It is hard to use ideas of ownership for ideas. As I said, you can't pick up and hold words or music. They aren't tangible things.
The author of a work does own the rights to the work, for a limited time as defined by copyright laws. Once the copyright expires, the work becomes part of the public domain. Yet, you still don't "own" the work. I am again using "own" as definded above. The words are still those of the author, you can't claim that they are yours. Your use of the work is no longer restricted but you still don't own the work. The public as a whole does.
So, when you buy a book or CD or other work, you own the physical stuff that the work is distributed on. But you don't own what is contained on the physical stuff.