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Moby Says Techie Fans = Fewer Sales

jalefkowit writes: "Launch is reporting that Moby explains the recent slide in sales for his newest album, "18", by describing what he calls the 'Pearl Jam Effect': bands and artists with more tech-savvy fans sell fewer albums than those with less tech-savvy fans, as the techies will disproportionately get their copies of the album from friends with CD burners or P2P services rather than from record stores. What do you think, are we putting our favorite bands in a bind?"

12 of 1,170 comments (clear)

  1. I disagree.. by James_G · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I'd completely disagree with this analysis. It's something I was discussing with a work friend the other day.

    Artists like Moby are precisely the sort of artists who stand to benefit the most through distribution of their music through p2p networks. The reason is simple: Moby's music would be considered by many "alternative" and consequently it doesn't get a lot (any) air play. So where am I supposed to hear it to know whether I like it enough to buy the album?

    If that's the case, then why hasn't this album taken off then? Well, I'd say the recent successes of the RIAA in getting p2p networks shut down has probably helped, but ultimately, maybe the album just isn't as good? Not having heard it, I can't comment on that.. Maybe someone else can. Maybe the marketing of the album sucked? (I haven't heard of it all until now). Either way, I think it's clear that blaiming the p2p networks is based on opinion (And FUD) rather than fact.

    1. Re:I disagree.. by gad_zuki! · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Either way, I think it's clear that blaiming the p2p networks is based on opinion (And FUD) rather than fact.

      Wow, talk about living in denial. P2P does hurt sales directly. Does that mean that ALL those people would have necessarily bought that album? No, but you have to accept the fact that many/some people would rather download than buy. Moby makes a good point here:
      "I'm not saying this is a good or a bad thing," he added. "I'm not writing this to voice my opinions. My concern is the way that the industry looks at the success of a musician or of a record that sells or doesn't sell.


      I think its fairly obvious that Moby understands the exposure benefits of P2P, but is trying to point out how success can never just be based on sales alone anymore.

      I'm also curious as to the assumption that more sales = better music. We know that the way to make a superstar doesn't start with muscial ability but with marketing, PR, gimmicks, manufactued controversies, bubblegum pop, etc. What Moby is saying, and its been said before, is that sales cannot determine any meaningful information about the artist especially now with P2P and he asserts there's a victim demographic. Arguably, there is a victim demographic. Whether or not exposure, concert sales, and fandom outweigh album sales is the real question.

    2. Re:I disagree.. by 3Suns · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Moby's music would be considered by many "alternative" and consequently it doesn't get a lot (any) air play.

      Umm, have you been listening to the radio recently? Moby's single We Are All Made Of Stars is getting lots of airplay in mainstream radio stations. It's currently #19 on the Billboard Dance/Club list, and the album is at #35 on the Billboard top albums list. I think it's safe to say that Moby has moved into the mainstream.

      If you ask me (or him), Moby is not condemning people for burning/filesharing his music. He's just trying to explain that his music is more popular than the record sales give him credit for. From the Launch article:

      "I'm not saying this is a good or a bad thing," he added. "I'm not writing this to voice my opinions. My concern is the way that the industry looks at the success of a musician or of a record that sells or doesn't sell."
      He's not bitching, he's just musing. Give him some credit.
      --

      -3Suns

      ~~~~
      The Revolution will be Slashdotted
    3. Re:I disagree.. by Dirtside · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You're right, except you're not seeing the whole picture. You're correct when you say that P2P hurts sales because some people would rather download than buy; on the other hand, you're forgetting that a lot of people will download and then buy anyway (assuming the music's any good). Whether that makes up for the download-instead-of-buy segment is arguable, of course, and we'd need hard numbers to really tell...

      --
      "Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
  2. Oh course its true by gad_zuki! · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Moby is only saying something that's been repeated a million times elsewhere. He's an intelligent enough to address the issue without berating his fans Metallica-style.

    I would say this is hard to refute. Indie, geeky, techno, and others in the technophile musical demographic are being copied left and right. Oh course there are huge advanteges to this in terms of exposure, concert attendence, etc. For instance, even before the broadband P2P revolution, back in 1998/1999 Stereolab managed to sell out two good sized Chicago venues. This is a band that never got any local radioplay and never came close to the top40 or top100 record sales.

    Shameless copying is a tradition that started with music lovers and has simply been made easier through technology. Moby questions how the industry measures success. That's a very important issue. The genie is out of the bottle, but the industry measures success through outdated methods.

    In another way this isn't exactly new. A lot of talented artists who take risks instead of sticking to pop formulas tend to be undervalued and underexposed. At least P2P can fix the latter.

  3. Pirating is NOT new by HanzoSan · · Score: 5, Insightful



    Before tech savvy people had the computer we had the radio and tape cassette.

    People could ALWAYS pirate music, yet michael jacksons triller sold 20 million copies, funny how no one decided to pirate him even though it was all over the radio all the damn time and everyone had it and could copy the cassette.

    I know, I had one of those dual cassette players, you stick both cassettes into it, play one and record on the other. Funny how when everyone was using cassettes the RIAA didnt complain about sales but now, that they are losing their monopoly, piracy is suddenly a big problem?

    --
    If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
    1. Re:Pirating is NOT new by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There's a few points I have to make. The first is that nobody is "pirating". Pirating is what the chinese do when they take American music, video or computer products, duplicate them and then SELL them.

      What people on the internet are doing is *sharing*. When I stick 20,000 songs up on Gnutella and people download them, I don't make a dime and they don't pay a dime. We're sharing.

      So the issue is, how does fair-use apply? Is it fair use when I share with one friend? What about when I share with ten friends? What if I share with 100,000 strangers?

      I think that's the real difference. When one person buys a tape and shares with 10 people, you still have 10% of people who have the product *paying* for it. When one person can buy a CD and instantly share it with the world, you could have one purchase for every 100,000 people who have the product. I'm not sure how I feel about that, but I could see that you wouldn't call *that* fair use possibly.

      On the other hand, part of the blame lays with the record companies. When I buy a DVD or CD, what am I buying? If I'm buying the physical media, then I should be able to do anything I want with the contents of it. If I'm buying the data on it, then I should be able to get it replaced either freely or cheaply (the cost of the actual media it is going to be replaced on).

      If I have a CD and it is stolen, broken, wears out, I can't just send the record company $1.50 to get another copy (since I already paid for the right to own/listen to the music itself). Instead, I have to pay another $20+ to get the music all over again. So, I have to pay for the media *and* the content -- but have no rights over either the media or the content. So if I've paid for both twice and have only one copy, then I should be able to make a copy of the second copy I bought and give it away (since I paid for two existing copies in the world and one is gone).

      The problem is that they have a clamp on everything. They sell you *nothing* for your $20+ and they get everything. When a format is obsolete, they get to ream you *all over again*. When your copy is damaged, stolen or worn out, they get to ream you *all over again*.

      So from that stance, i say "fuck it". They don't give a shit about giving me what I paid for so why should I give a rats ass about their bottom line? Feel bad for the artist, but fuck -- I'm not your manager.

  4. My theory: tech fans = critical buyers by brooks_talley · · Score: 4, Insightful

    First, let me say I'm not a huge Moby fan. I don't dislike the guy, but I remember when he was a basic rave DJ in the San Francisco area.

    Funny that he made his money for so long by mixing records of other peoples' stuff together. Somehow I doubt he paid the appropriate ASCAP or BMI fees. So right off, I have a hard time sympathizing with his complaints about piracy.

    But beyond that, isn't it notable that artists with a large fanbase in the tech community blame that fanbase whenever sales slip? Metallica was the first; Moby is just the latest.

    My theory is this: Acts like Metallica or Moby build up a cult following over years. By nature, that cult following is largely techies and other folks who don't follow the Christina Spears of the month club. People who actually care about music and are willing to follow smaller bands to get what they want.

    At some point, some of these bands go to pot (literally, figuratively, or both). Their later work becomes increasingly detached and less and less like the early work, eventually ending up as a mellowed out, regurgitated pablum made up of bits and pieces of all of their early work, mixed with maybe a few mainstream artists whose stolen sounds might help draw in a few more customers^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hfans. Fans lose interest and buy less.

    And then, as the final stage of intellectual and moral decay, these acts engage in a strange form of denial crossed with egotism crossed with paranoia. "The fans must still love us!" they shout. "We're sure they're still listening to this new crap we put out, but for some reason sales are down. It's those goddamned fans! They must be stealing our crappy new stuff, because after years of paying for our old, quality stuff, they've suddenly become a backstabbing pack of thieves! Yeah, that must be it! Those fans of ours sure do suck!"

    Anyways, that's my theory. It would just be sad, if it didn't have the dangerous potential of impacting our legal system.

    Cheers
    -b

  5. Re:That's Not The Perl Jam Effect! by cheinonen · · Score: 5, Insightful

    More examples of this would be the last two albums from Radiohead (Kid A, Amnesiac) as well as The Fragile from Nine Inch Nails. All the die hard fans went out and bought them as soon as they were released, so they would debut at #1 on the Billboard charts, but they had no radio/video airplay to keep them going. Both bands might still be great (and Radiohead is as good as anyone in the world right now), but without a single and a video that's really popular (and I mean higher than #15 on the Modern Rock chart), you won't stay up there for long.

  6. Re:do tastes really change that much? by Dermot+the+Forg · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is the funny thing I've noticed with a few bands - especially REM, Counting Crows and Pearl Jam - who take their music seriously. Each new album they are simultaneously accused of reinventing themselves AND producing a clone of their previous material.

    I agree with the undercurrent of this thread - there is a fair degree of denial out there that some people didn't like the second albums simply because their appreciation of the first one was a fad.

  7. Re:The real reason by Imperial+Tacohead · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What the hell is wrong with you people? Moby didn't attack anyone in his journal entry. He didn't editorialize. He didn't whine or complain, or moan about lost sales. At no point did Moby even say that he minded this supposed effect. He put forth a reasonable theory with some empirical evidence to back it up, for the sake of discussion. Why is everyone attacking him? He's done nothing wrong. He hasn't even suggested that we've done something wrong. Why is everyone on this board acting like a total asshole, instead of reasonably debating the points that he made? I can't help but notice that very few people have mentioned Weezer at all to this point.

  8. What a surreal discussion! by Junks+Jerzey · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When a CD sells a zillion copies, but not a bazillion copies, that's not a flop. That's more success than just about any of us reading this will ever have.

    All the people blasting Moby as being old and over the hill are pretty funny. 36 is not old, except to know-it-all teenagers.

    There sure are a lot of people with bottled up angst, wanting to put down this CD in some sort of all-encompassing way. It's just a CD! If you don't like it, don't listen to it!

    And then there are the people who say you should copy it because either (a) it sucks, or (b) Moby has an attitude problem. What weird logic! If those cases you think you wouldn't want anything to do with it, but it's the old double standard of "I hate you music industry, but I desperately need what you sell."