Slashdot Mirror
Proposed Law To Open Code ... In Cars
SEWilco writes: "A Minneapolis Star Tribune story points out that small repair shops say they lose money because they don't have access to car computer codes. These 'codes' are the diagnostic messages used by onboard computers to report problems and perform tests. Older designs only required a jumper wire to make a test light flash code patterns, certain dashboard actions to display codes, or a cheap display terminal from a parts store. Now the interfaces and code meanings are more complex and undocumented, so only auto dealer repair shops can easily find causes of some problems. U.S. Senate S.2617 and House H. R. 2735
would force auto manufacturers to share the codes. Sen. Wellstone says that manufacturers are acting like a cartel, blocking independent shops and car owners. But GM is being helpful."
Back when I worked for Sun Electric (before they got bought by Snap-On Tools), one of the hardest parts of making diagnostic disks for the newer cars was getting access to the codes. Information about what the codes mean, and how to get them, are "trade secrets" jealously guarded by the big automotive manufacturers, so they can provide *their* repair facilities with the stuff they need to do the work, thus effectively gauranteeing them a captive market.
... while these "confidential" documents were copied. We ran a few years behind - not that it mattered much to Sun, because nobody takes a new, still-under-warranty car to Joe's Auto Repair & Bait Shop. Our customers got the cars after they went out of warranty, and by then we always had the codes, and hardware to allow them to be read.
We'd eventually get copies of the specs, by having some employee schmooze the people at the auto makers, and they'd conveniently leave the codes on their desks, and step out for a loooooong lunch
It'd be a whole lot less sleazy, though, if the car makers had to release the codes, and how to get them. I do see, however, that this could cause problems, as many of the datastreams are bi-directional, allowing you to change things while the engine is running, potentially causing a malfunction. I wonder if the lawmakers have considered that?
Lemon curry?
I recently ran into something somewhat similar. I have an older Acura Legend that has had a couple of nagging problems I've been trying to track down. First is a ticking sound from somewhere within the mass of emissions-control components. The other was an occasional failure of the air conditioning to cool.
Anyway, I was doing some searching on Google and Google Groups, trying to see if someone had been down either of these paths before. I ended up, through an Acura enthusiasts site, at Alldata, a mechanics' and do-it-yourself'ers online technical reference subscription site.
Alldata had a list of Technical Service Belletins (TSBs) for my car -- these are notices sent from the manufacturer to dealers notifying them of, let's say "anomalies", in their product to be aware of. Sure enough, one was titled "BUZZING FROM EMISSIONS CONTROL BOX" and another was titled "A/C INTERMITTENTLY BLOWS WARM AIR". Jackpot!
All I had to do now was subscribe to Alldata for a (relatively) measly $25 a year to read the full text of the TSB. But wait! It turns out that of the world's car companies, Honda (who makes Acuras) and BMW (you know what they make) do not allow their TSBs to be distributed to the owners of their products.
I called Acura's toll-free number and complained, and sure enough, they said they only provide and authorize distribution of TSBs to dealers. Seems Honda likes to keep secret what they know is wrong with their cars, giving their dealers an advantage and making owners and independent mechanics suffer along rediscovering what's wrong with Honda's shoddy products.
Anyway, fortunately, I discovered an excellent service, Taylor Automotive Tech-Line which is a kind of a pay-per-incident tech support for mechanics and others. A simple web form and $20 later, and they emailed me TIFFs of the "secret" TSBs. Both of which were exactly what was wrong with my car!
Turns out the air conditioning problem was caused by a circuit board chock full of cold solder joints that had cracked. Ten minutes with a soldering iron and fresh solder corrected that manufacturing defect. The clicking sound was diagnosed in less than five minutes with the help of the TSB and fixed by replacing a $59 chunk of plastic (a "Constant Vacuum Control Valve").
Taylor Auto Tech's motto, by the way, is "We Fill In The Cracks On The Information Highway". Thankfully, someone is.
This is interesting. As a co-owner of a small independant garage that primarily works on GM, Ford, and Chrysler, I never had difficuly in obtaining error codes and how to pull them. Not only do the manufacturers provided manuals, but so do the aftermarket companies. Even getting a quicky codelist from the dealerships have never been difficult.
Now in the beginning of ECM's, all the sensors had different names, but the SAE has been working hard at even removing these obstacles. Also the auto industry is naturally working at producing standard error codes. Todays mechanics owe no loyatly to a dealership or brand (not a bad thing) Its much easier and cheaper if when another dealership or garage picks up a skilled mechanic they don't need to retrain them on that brands codes.
The automotive manufacturers know this and are migrating to common codes on their own. No need for the government to come in and add an additional expense to a process that is already happening.
What is happening is the liability of working on a car is becoming too expensive for small independant garages. This will be the death of mom and pop shops before nonstandard ecm codes are.
Gator/Claria is Spyware.
Apparently all mechanics that work on cars are named Joe.
/.!"
In a controversial move today, Slashdot.org opened a new can of worms with their posting of open source the error codes message. Joe's everywhere are in shock at finding out that they indeed missed their calling.
From Joe C in Paduka, Ky.: "When I found out I was supposed to be working in automotive repairs, I completely was flabergasted. I have always felt like I was missing something in my life, this can explain why. Thanks
From Joe E. Muntzenburger in Lake Okeechobee, FL.: "Man, when they told me I was supposed to be "Big Joe" down at my local auto-shop, I was stunned. I mean, being CEO of a large paper mill is great, but it can't compare to sweating underneath the hood of a car I don't understand!"
Mods: If you don't get it, then you haven't been reading the comments.
Sent from your iPad.
I work as a mechanic full time right now... and I worked as a technician for the past 4 years while I went to school (CS major working as a mechanic, go figure). Anyway, I've never had a problem with this mysterious hidden code problem. It's pretty simple, I use a handheld diagnostic scanner (Genisys scanner, it runs a Lynx realtime linux, has usb ports, pcmcia ports, ethernet, large color screen, pretty sweet)
it plugs into ALL cars made after 1996 (when the standard for OBDII came out) and most domestic cars with computers made before then. It tells me what code (or codes) have been set, and the data from the time it was set (RPM , engine temp, TPC value etc).
I then take the code, and usually it will say something along the lines of "PO0047 OXY Sensor Bank 2" (I made that code up, but it is very close to something which would actually occur)
Now, that tells me its an oxygen sensor in bank 2, no problem.
It seems to me all these "independent shops" just dont have the proper equipment(sidenote: I work at an independent shop). I have NEVER had a car give me a code that was "secret" and that I didnt have access to. Ofcourse, We have the proper equipment (the scanner was $6,000) and we also have several DVDS which , for each code in the computer give you a flow chart of what to check that could set that code.
It seems that the backwoods shops that people go to because they are cheap, dont have that equipment. Which is why noone understands that when we scan your computer for codes, we charge $55 just to check what the codes are for, not even to fix them.
So remember, when you get your car fixed and it costs a lot for something you think must be simple, remember that the mechanic is probably still paying for thousands of dollars in tools he needs for his job.
That was a long rant,but some of it was ontopic I guess.
1) Most manufacturers in fact do NOT provide any information about their ECM codings or diagnostic trouble codes. The ONLY published codes are typically the OBD codes, which everyone knows anyway. While we're all proud of you for having three systems to do that at home, clearly you've never used them for actually diagnosing real non-emissions related problems with your car, or you own an older-model (early OBD2) American car.
2) Also blatently incorrect. Companies absolutely hold this information close. In the example I used, Audi's tech manuals cost well over an order of magnitude more than the "consumer" level manuals cost. They are virtually impossible to purchase, anyway, if you're not certified by them. Not coincidentally, virtually all certified mechanics work for dealerships. The manuals that we end users have access to have the very bare minimum of information to perform very basic maintennance on the car. For example, say I want to flush my brake fluid. The procedure that the consumer manuals lists is very different from what the tech manuals list -- they don't even mention that you need to cycle the ABS controller using a VAG tool.
a) Yeah, thats a pretty common excuse stated by people who want to spout off and make people think they know what they're talking about
b) In most cases, this is also blatently wrong. The basic principles of how cars work have not changed much. No one needs to know how the internal code that runs the engine works, but knowing what all the errors it can tell you mean is pretty damn important. Knowing that changing your brake fluid the "old" way isn't doing the job completely is important to know too. This isn't stuff that "backyard" mechanics don't understand, this is stuff they are being deliberately not told. There's a big difference.
You know, you're right, there's a big problem with people who believe what they read. On here, though, there's a bigger problem with people who know a lot less than they think they know. Not that I'm pointing any fingers directly at you.
"The old garage mechanic is gone," he said. "In fact, the term 'mechanic' is gone. They're called technicians now. These people have to be very intelligent people. They're working on computers, and it's a high-tech industry. . . . How does the guy that's in a little town of a population of 500 people get educated about the electronics of a $30,000 new automobile?
Could he be any more condescending?
Don't moderate flamebait as Troll. Know the difference or you will be Meta-moderated.
It is interesting how senators are willing to help the little auto mechanic, from being locked out by the large manufacturer, but not the little pc software developer from being locked out by the large software developers.
What is it? Is it because auto mechanics is an easier bussiness to understand? Are they better organized? Or is it because the small automechanic is an old institution.
Automakers make money by keeping this stuff secret. Why?
Dealerships do two types of repairs:
Customer Pay, and Warranty pay. As a way to protect consumers from questionable hourly billing, shops use a refrence book that tells them about how many hours a job will take. This book is how your estimate is determined (plus or minus whatever the service writer thinks they can get out of you)
What you're not told is that customer pay jobs
are often quoted TWICE the time alocated for warranty jobs. Very few mechanics like warranty jobs unless it's something that they have a really good shortcut around (i.e. A faster way to replace an engine than the shop manual shows)
Since automakers tell the dealerships how much they will pay for warranty jobs, Dealerships tend to make up for it by overcharging for customer pay jobs (via padding the quoted labor times)
So who gets screwed?
Not the automakers...
They sell more replacement parts when they can eliminate independant shops and
aftermarket parts. Independant shops tend to buy more aftermarket parts than OEM parts.
Not the Dealerships...
The dealership mechanics don't like to give up their "gravy" jobs like brakes & transmission services to Independant shops because those gravy jobs are what help them compensate for warranty work. Dearership owners feel the same way. For a given week, if mechanic 1 can replace 10 customer pay transmissions, and mechanic 2 can replace the same number of warranty transmissions, Mechanic 1 just earned the dealership twice as much and without all the BS warranty paperwork.
Independant shops get screwed.
Common sense. They can't compete because automakers are trying everything they can to get customers to come to them for all their needs. Independant shops must then rely on oil changes & mufflers to make their money, and there's too much competition there because it doesn't involve as much training. There isn't nearly as much money to be made changing oil as there can be for drivability & electrical stuff. The little shops must do a lot more little tests that the Non-OBD2 codes provide. How can a little shop compete?
Customers get screwed.
Mainly because competition is eliminated.
Don't expect to see any improvement either.
CNN headline news has been reporting that there will be a shortage of about 200,000 mechanics by the year 2010. Expect to see dealerships take advantage of that and watch labor rates and times skyrocket.